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What's the deal with Pope Francis? (Page 9)
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subego
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May 7, 2014, 01:18 PM
 
Goddamn nuns and their goddamn social justice.

Where do they get off focusing on the living.

Cunts.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 7, 2014, 01:19 PM
 
Their priorities are all screwed up. They are obsessed with sex.

"You're doing good work. But you're doing the wrong kind."

I have to say, I don't wonder if their work isn't better for people overall, anyway.
     
subego
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May 7, 2014, 01:19 PM
 
Fr. Robert is respectful about this.

I'm not.
     
subego
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May 7, 2014, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Their priorities are all screwed up. They are obsessed with sex.

"You're doing good work. But you're doing the wrong kind."
Which is why priests need to be allowed to knock some boots.
     
subego
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May 7, 2014, 01:25 PM
 
I'm curious (coff... Chongo... coff...), what happens if you are an RCC priest and you get married?

AFAIK, God doesn't care. There's no scripture saying priests shouldn't marry. So you don't go to hell or something.

Do they just defrock you?
     
subego
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May 7, 2014, 01:26 PM
 
P.S. My understanding is the no marriage bit is so the church doesn't have to put up a wife and a... umm... Catholic sized family.
     
andi*pandi
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May 7, 2014, 01:37 PM
 
They're being chastised for promoting "radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith." I wonder what those are? That women are people?
     
andi*pandi
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May 7, 2014, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm curious (coff... Chongo... coff...), what happens if you are an RCC priest and you get married?

AFAIK, God doesn't care. There's no scripture saying priests shouldn't marry. So you don't go to hell or something.

Do they just defrock you?
I think defrocked, but also you can be ex-communicated, which is in effect the same as going to hell. But Chongo will know better.
     
subego
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May 7, 2014, 02:03 PM
 
If they do excommunicate you, and that is a one-way trip to hell, I can't for the life of me imagine that's a good use of that power.

Almost makes you think mortals shouldn't be the arbiter of what deserves eternal damnation.
     
Shaddim
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May 7, 2014, 02:45 PM
 
Since they aren't really married in the eyes of the Church, then he'd be seen as a fornicator. From there, if he didn't cease and desist he'd be defrocked. Then he'd probably join the Anglicans/Episcopalians.

Reminds me of the local RC parish. The pastor there was a truly righteous guy, he worked tirelessly through their homeless shelter/kitchen fighting poverty, even to the point where he didn't care what you believed. If you needed food, shelter, and clothes, first and foremost he saw to that. No one left that place unfed and dirty (unless by choice). Well, that didn't sit well with his higher-ups, they wanted him to push more dogma at the same time. To that he declined, telling them that "saving their lives was to also save their souls".

So eventually they moved him. The parish then received some bingo-slinger who was more concerned with aerobics classes and bake sales, and quickly let the shelter fall by the wayside. When that happened we stopped sending donations and that really pissed off the church hierarchy. Eventually I got tired of the letters, which became increasingly more demanding, and informed them that; one, we weren't Catholic, and two, the donations were to the priest's ministry, not them. We had been helping him despite his affiliation with them, not because of it. That left them completely baffled.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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subego
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May 7, 2014, 03:01 PM
 
Talking about priests getting married despite the proscription reminds me of the movie The Devils.

Excellent, yet utterly horrifying.

Witch hunters, a nun, boiling water, holy turkey baster. You put it together.

The movie takes place post-medieval, but I'd say it qualifies as showing people "getting medieval".
     
Chongo
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May 7, 2014, 03:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Thumbs down on letting this one fly.

Vatican presses forward with crackdown on US nuns' group over 'radical' positions | Fox News

Do we really need a nun crackdown?



Facepalm Sunday.
This has nothing to do with the Sisters social work. It has to to with a several years long examination of why their orders are dying off due to their straying from orthodoxy.

The reform order was issued in 2012 under now-retired Pope Benedict XVI, after an investigation concluded the nuns' group had taken positions that undermined Roman Catholic teaching on the priesthood and homosexuality while promoting "radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith." Investigators praised the nuns' humanitarian work, but accused them of focusing too much on social justice and ignoring critical issues, such as fighting abortion.
The newest issues is this:
The Leadership Conference, which represents about 80 percent of U.S. nuns, plans to give its outstanding leadership award to Sister Elizabeth Johnson, a Fordham University theologian and author of "Quest for the Living God." U.S. bishops said the book contained "misrepresentations" and doctrinal errors, but Johnson has defended her work. Mueller didn't mention Johnson by name, but said the choice of honoree will be "seen as a rather open provocation."
( Last edited by Chongo; May 7, 2014 at 03:33 PM. )
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subego
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May 7, 2014, 03:15 PM
 
That it's not about their social work is kinda the point.

The church thinks they need to spend more time fighting abortion.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 7, 2014, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That it's not about their social work is kinda the point.

The church thinks they need to spend more time fighting abortion.
Which I imagine like any other stat, has likely gone down in the past 10-20 years.
     
Chongo
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May 7, 2014, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm curious (coff... Chongo... coff...), what happens if you are an RCC priest and you get married?
You have broken your vow of celibacy.

AFAIK, God doesn't care. There's no scripture saying priests shouldn't marry. So you don't go to hell or something.
There a numerous passages suggesting it is beneficial.
The Biblical Foundation of Priestly Celibacy

Celibacy and the Priesthood | Catholic Answers

Paul even goes on to make a case for preferring celibacy to marriage: "Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. . . those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. . . . The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband" (7:27-34).

Paul’s conclusion: He who marries "does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better" (7:38).

Paul was not the first apostle to conclude that celibacy is, in some sense, "better" than marriage. After Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 19 on divorce and remarriage, the disciples exclaimed, "If such is the case between a man and his wife, it is better not to marry" (Matt 19:10). This remark prompted Jesus’ teaching on the value of celibacy "for the sake of the kingdom":

"Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" (Matt. 19:11–12).
Do they just defrock you?
Yes, but most priests have already requested to be laicized long before getting married.

From a married priest.

Holy Spirit Interactive: Fr. Ray Ryland - The Gift: A Married Priest Looks at Celibacy
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subego
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May 7, 2014, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Which I imagine like any other stat, has likely gone down in the past 10-20 years.
And I feel like I've been hearing about the orders hemorrhaging women since Vatican II.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 7, 2014, 03:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
And I feel like I've been hearing about the orders hemorrhaging women since Vatican II.
I was talking about abortions.
     
subego
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May 7, 2014, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
You have broken your vow of celibacy.



There a numerous passages suggesting it is beneficial.
The Biblical Foundation of Priestly Celibacy

Celibacy and the Priesthood | Catholic Answers





Yes, but most priests have already requested to be laicized long before getting married.

From a married priest.

Holy Spirit Interactive: Fr. Ray Ryland - The Gift: A Married Priest Looks at Celibacy
Thank you, as always!

The article you posted though does mention one can get "suggestions" from scripture rather than it actually being dogma.
     
subego
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May 7, 2014, 03:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I was talking about abortions.
I know. I was drawing a parallel.

The number of women attracted to the orders has been going down since Vatican II. This isn't a new issue, and laying it at the feet of the current orders is ignoring what's been happening for the last 75 years.

Edit: oops... 50 years.
( Last edited by subego; May 7, 2014 at 05:44 PM. )
     
OAW
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May 7, 2014, 03:56 PM
 
We also have to keep in mind the context of such passages. The early Christians believed that Jesus was literally coming back in their lifetimes. Hence Paul's preference for celibacy over marriage. There's a certain logic to that mentality if one is convinced that the Rapture is just around the corner. Of course, when 2000+ years go by demonstrating that this thinking was at a minimum "premature" ... the impracticalities inherent to it become ever more pronounced.

OAW
     
Chongo
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May 7, 2014, 04:04 PM
 
as with all CA posts

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
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Chongo
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May 7, 2014, 04:12 PM
 
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subego
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May 7, 2014, 05:39 PM
 
Which appears to leave a gap between Christ and Augustine.


Edit: that's not a slam. I very much appreciate you having sources and answers for these questions, and imagine if anyone can fill the gap it would be you.
( Last edited by subego; May 7, 2014 at 06:08 PM. )
     
Chongo
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Jun 2, 2014, 11:11 AM
 
45/47
     
Chongo
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Jun 20, 2014, 12:03 PM
 
45/47
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 20, 2014, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I was considering posting this. The Pope finally whiffs on an issue.
     
Chongo
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Jun 21, 2014, 09:59 PM
 
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subego
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Jun 21, 2014, 10:14 PM
 
The headlines on this story are a bit sensationalized. I gather the general sentiment was more "unrepentant evildoers excommunicate themselves".
     
Chongo
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Jun 23, 2014, 02:31 PM
 
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subego
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Jun 23, 2014, 04:14 PM
 
I'm not going to cast stones at the Pope for holding Pope-like opinions. I'm happy he's being far less of a dick about it.

Which, when it comes down to it, matters a lot more than Canon law IMO. If he softens the edges, and everybody follows suit, that becomes the reality of the situation.

I'm not religious, and only minorly spiritual, so perhaps it's ironic I'm happier the more that people feel like the RCC is welcoming of them, and is seen as an institution who draws people to God as opposed to pushing them away.
     
Chongo
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Jun 24, 2014, 10:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not going to cast stones at the Pope for holding Pope-like opinions. I'm happy he's being far less of a dick about it.

Which, when it comes down to it, matters a lot more than Canon law IMO. If he softens the edges, and everybody follows suit, that becomes the reality of the situation.

I'm not religious, and only minorly spiritual, so perhaps it's ironic I'm happier the more that people feel like the RCC is welcoming of them, and is seen as an institution who draws people to God as opposed to pushing them away.
I know it's 38 minutes long, watch and tell us what you think.

The Third Way on Vimeo
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subego
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Jun 24, 2014, 06:13 PM
 
I will actually try my best to do that, but I'm completely jammed until the weekend.
     
Shaddim
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Jun 25, 2014, 04:10 AM
 
Still trying to get people to dislike him, I see. What's the deal with elements in the RCC trying to produce bad PR for the Pope? You don't like that he's liked?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Chongo
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Jun 25, 2014, 07:37 AM
 
I'm not trying to get people to not like him. I'm just pointing out that Salon has figuered out that the Pope is Catholic. It's the secular press that is trying to drive a wedge into the faithful by portraying Pope Francis as something he is not.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 25, 2014, 08:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
It's the secular press that is trying to drive a wedge into the faithful
There's the conspiracy theory
     
Chongo
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Jun 25, 2014, 11:44 AM
 
see how you do
Who said it.
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Chongo
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Jun 25, 2014, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
There's the conspiracy theory
You mean this one?

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 25, 2014, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I like to change the subject!
...
     
Shaddim
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Jun 25, 2014, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I'm not trying to get people to not like him. I'm just pointing out that Salon has figuered out that the Pope is Catholic. It's the secular press that is trying to drive a wedge into the faithful by portraying Pope Francis as something he is not.
No, they're on to the fact that, unlike Benedict, this Pope is actually likeable.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Shaddim
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Jun 25, 2014, 12:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
There's the conspiracy theory
Ah, the wedge of not being a prat, I see now.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Chongo
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Jun 30, 2014, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I know it's 38 minutes long, watch and tell us what you think.

The Third Way on Vimeo
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I will actually try my best to do that, but I'm completely jammed until the weekend.
Did you get a chance to watch this?
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subego
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Jun 30, 2014, 04:44 PM
 
Not yet... I will though.
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 30, 2014, 05:25 PM
 
I made it to about 20 minutes in. I empathized with their stories, but think they've been brainwashed. They are so starved for love/attention/acceptance they are willing to give up a human need because they are getting some faux friendship instead. If they're happy, that's great for them... they could even become priests, why not. However, that doesn't mean that all gay people need to give up sex. It's a human need.
     
Chongo
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Jun 30, 2014, 05:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I made it to about 20 minutes in. I empathized with their stories, but think they've been brainwashed. They are so starved for love/attention/acceptance they are willing to give up a human need because they are getting some faux friendship instead. If they're happy, that's great for them... they could even become priests, why not. However, that doesn't mean that all gay people need to give up sex. It's a human need.
Too bad, you missed the best part. Do you know of anyone who has died from lack of sexual activity? On the other hand, there are plenty of people who have died during sex, etc.
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Shaddim
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Jul 1, 2014, 01:05 AM
 
Sex a "need"? I wouldn't say that. The drive to reproduce is strong, but sex itself isn't a requirement for living. Otherwise, we couldn't have jails and prisons, or we'd have to integrate them or allow regular conjugal visits.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
subego
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Jul 1, 2014, 01:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Did you get a chance to watch this?
The guy in the white shirt with the goatee is pretty hot, as is the priest at the end. No idea why they put him in the dark. Meow!

I thought the best part was the guy saying maybe the Church needs to start asking for forgiveness about this.

Where it falls down for me hardest is the attempt to draw similarities to adultery. You can draw scriptural parallels, how those get applied in the real world are very different things.

I've never been married, nor known a married woman in the biblical sense, so if I understand the terms right I've never committed adultery, however... I've fornicated.

Every. Single. Time.

Now, TBH, I consider the Christian prohibition against that to be something of a joke at this point. Don't fornicate... yeah, right. Do you realize what year it is? As if half the people here, including the priests, aren't doing that. There's a bit of a nudge-nudge wink-wink going on.

That's not the attitude towards gay sex.

I know fornication and adultery aren't the same thing, so let's get down to brass tacks. Rate the sins: adultery vs. gay anal. Are those really equal in your mind, and the eyes of God, or is one worse?
( Last edited by subego; Jul 1, 2014 at 02:11 AM. )
     
Chongo
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Jul 1, 2014, 08:33 AM
 
All are sins against the sixth commandment.
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Jul 1, 2014, 10:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Too bad, you missed the best part. Do you know of anyone who has died from lack of sexual activity? On the other hand, there are plenty of people who have died during sex, etc.
Etc.?
     
Chongo
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Jul 1, 2014, 10:19 AM
 
Died after sex from an STD.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 1, 2014, 01:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Too bad, you missed the best part. Do you know of anyone who has died from lack of sexual activity?
Elliot Rodger.
     
 
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