[danengel]

I've been using OS X for about two weeks and I have fallen in love with it. It's what I've ever wished for in the long time using 7.1 up to 8.6, and I use it in my everyday work as if it wasn't a beta. Of course, a lot is unfinished, but in comparison to the older OSs or even Win***s, it's really great! A Mach/BSD Core, Aqua, Terminal what more could you wish for? I hate reading the posts of all the people who can't stop complaining about everything, of course, it is a beta, what will it even look like when it's final??

[jblakeh1]

I have to agree, it's pretty amazing. The focus on simplicity is a good one, something too often ignored in the software industry.

It is somewhat depressing reading all the complaints. I hope Apple isn't inclined to bring back things like the apple menu, control strip,etc. Third party replacements already exist for most of these, anyway.

[mr_sonicblue]

I agree.

Ever since using Linux with Gnome and Enlightenment I thought "Wow, if anyone ever made a user-friendly version of this, it'd be the perfect OS"

And, a few years later *POP* OS X.

But, now, when I see posts like "Adding finese to OS X" that contain nothing but general complaints about the layout, asking Apple to restore their *precious* old gui. I'm VERY Pleased that OS X hardly resembles OS 1-9 (whose GUIs I didn't like, in fact). The fact that I can boot Unix, run a Mac internet browser and music player, then open a terminal and start compiling Apache simply amazes me! Apple should be praised by such progress, not attacked with petty "I want the window titlebar to be 1-pixel shorter" feedback.

I wish people would wake up and realize this is a NEW operating system, not to be confused with things of the past. Actually, one of my complaints is that Apple actually CALLED it MacOS X, instead of something else (though Microsoft did worse by switching the numbers and letters as the method of distinguishing Win for Server and Win for Home (Win2000 <-> WinMe).

OK, about app interfaces.

The Process and Apple menus of the old were ineffecient and ill-equiped, in my mind, to be effective (probably why everyone had some 3rd party gadget like DragThing, PowerBar, or DropDrawers installed).

Microsoft's Taskbar (Win98+) was far more effective because it combined the abilities of a mult-level context start menu for running apps, a quick-launch for common apps, a toolbar tray for the clock and various utilities (Extra context menu, launching CDs, Scheduled events, Changing resolution, etc) and used the rest of the space for listing running apps. A bit better.

The dock. It combines common apps and documents, running apps, minimized windows, and the trash into one convienient area. And it grows to meet expanding needs, though it has a limit (theoretically).

My favorite? NONE OF 'EM. The best example of something plausible is the Gnome Bar (whatever it's really called, I'm not sure) Which combines any number of context menus, app buttons, and active utilities (like CPU graph, multiple-desktop manager, and clock). If the dock would adopt the context menus and a more expanded active utility support, then there'd be something I'd truely love.

Though, to conclude: LIVE WITH IT!!

------------------
-Eric Schneider (SonicBlue)

[Scott_H]

A lot of people complain about the UNIX under the skin. I can see that it was a brilliant move by Apple to align with UNIX. Now it's UNIX vs Windows.

For example M$ can't change SMB to break Samba. 1) Open source people will work around it in no time. 2) Everyone will get super pissed at M$. So the result is that Apple is sure to have Windows Networking.

[jblakeh1]

Samba, PHP, MySQL, OpenGL,Quicktime Streaming Server... Apple's decision to adopt Unix AND an Open Source model is going to be a big boost for the Mac in the enterprise, and in general.

M$ is looking more like the proprietary beast the Mac once had the reputation for (sure, the hardware is still proprietary, but given what runs on it now, it isn't as significant).

OS X has some wonderful features, but Mac Professionals certainly should voice their opinions. Many of us here have livelihoods that depend on the MacOS.

I don't think that making suggestions about fine tuning the HI/UI is something that should be viewed as negative. I think most everyone here wants OS X to work. We don't want it to be OS 9, we want it to learn from and grab the best features from it... the stuff that already works and works well. Many many unix variants already exist. The reason none of them is a consumer OS is simple--HI/UI. The MacOS has the most user friendly HI/UI out there. OS X should be better. Right now it is not. Obviously X is a beta, but there are holes big and small that need to be thought about. The multiple issues need to be prioritized. I have a few friends at Apple and I happen to know they are listening to the feedback to see what works and what doesn't. This is what a beta test is for. This is what these forums are for. There is no perfect OS for everyone. The home user, the pro, and the systems guy all have different wants and needs. Finding the best solutions to problems can only come from listening to the people actually using the OS.

I work for a software company. We've have several X machines up in our offices for months and we encourage our employees to try to do their work on these machines... in classic, and using the carbonized version of the apps we are developing. The feedback I hear over and over is almost exactly the same:

1. The finder/dock doesn't let me access files nearly as efficiently as tabbed folders and/or the apple menu.

2. Why is that apple sitting in the middle of the screen?

3. I feel lost without the hard drives on the desktop.

4. I hate the giant finder fonts and the wide grid spacing.

5. Why can't I drag and drop?

The issues I've been hearing are going to be echoed to Apple a thousand times over. It is right and good to think about these things and thank God people are thinking about little issues. Someone in that finesse forum mentioned the fact that Cocoa windows can be dragged off a window so that only one pixel remains visible. Is this a problem? You bet it is. If you don't think so, I invite you to man a customer service line at any major software company. It would be absolutely foolish to leave all these issues to third parties.

If you "hate reading the posts of all the people who can't stop complaining" don't read them. This is how progress is made. Remember that round mouse? iMac was great, but people consistently complained about the mouse. Why? Because it sucked!!!!

Despite all its wonderfulness and the insane amount of hard work that has gone into OS X some things about OS X suck and I'm going to try to get them fixed. I want it to be better than OS 9. It has to be... otherwise I'll be out of a job.

[mr_sonicblue]

If you "hate reading the posts of all the people who can't stop complaining" don't read them.

Of all the things said, that's gotta be the worst. I'm not mad that I have to read them, I'm concerned that people ARE postng such.

------------------
-Eric Schneider (SonicBlue)

I like OS X a lot too.

But I can appreciate the people on the other side of the fence...people who use a Mac to do a job to feed their family, not because they just love computers. For them, the switch from OS 9.x to OS X. will be harsh.

I do find it interesting that this is called OS X and not OS 10. Maybe I'm reading too much into a name, but it seems to me that Apple acknowledges that this is going to be a pretty radical change, not like going from 8.x to 9.x.

All that said, it really seems like a lot of the threads are pretty much focused on the negative. If we assume Apple glances through these forums, I think its important to mention what you like as well as what you don't like..

[jblakeh1]

>I want it to be better than OS 9. It has to be... otherwise I'll be out of a job.

I have a hard time believing your livelyhood is dependent on something as trivial as Popup folders.

[danengel]

ScaryChown -- I understand very well your opinion. It's just that I don't depend on the MacOS, for me, it's just fun. I don't care if it takes 3 seconds longer to copy a file than in OS9 or if it's darn slow, maybe in a month I will, but right now, I'm still admiring the great font rendering, no more crashes and the wonderful UI.

I didn't mean not to give any feedback at all, I just wanted to say that I don't like these "I want the window titlebar to be 1-pixel shorter" feedback (sonicblue). I have been giving a lot of feedback to Apple, too, and I'm lucky that there are people like you who really check the OS out.

BTW: If I wanna be really fast, I simply use the console... viewing, copying, unstuffing, downloading, telnet, you can't get it done faster!

[mr_sonicblue]

I do find it interesting that this is called OS X and not OS 10. Maybe I'm reading too much into a name

I think someone at Apple just thought they were being smart by knowing roman numerals.

------------------
-Eric Schneider (SonicBlue)

[This message has been edited by mr_sonicblue (edited 10-09-2000).]

5. Why can't I drag and drop?

Not enough hand-eye coordination?

[Scott_H]

In responce to ScarryChown.

1) Sure it does. Just learn how to uses it. Are you going to loose money even if it's not faster?

2) Does it matter? Ignore it. You're too busy making money to look at it, right?

3) So put ther there. Or hit the check box to have them mount there. Or better yet learn the new system.

4) So scale them smaller and tell Apple about the grid spacing. Even if it's not "fixed" is that going to keep you from making momey? You're going to miss a deadline because of a large icon?

5) Bug? Maybe 'cause it's beta. Oh wait I know. Apple thinks drag and drop is the old way and they are getting rid of it?

The UI is changing so get over it already and help Apple make ther new one great. Send them the feed back they asked for.

How many time does someone have to point out that the icon size for the folders scales?

[limbotron]

Oh isn't it delightful. Isn't it delicious? Well yes, but it is also far from perfect. I've been lurking on these forums for a while. I don't think people are, in general, complaining, they are trying help..making suggestions...giving constructive criticism. After losing 9 billion dollars in market cap Apple should be listening. Why did they post a profit warning... well in large part because the cube isn't selling. What is the cube? An absolutely gorgeous machine that not that many people want or need. Apple hasn't been listening. Mac Pros have been asking for a many slot machine for years. Apple's student users want built in CD-Rs. Small businesses want affordable machines. It doesn't matter if they make beautiful hardware if nobody is buying. Same deal in software. It is vitally important Apple get OS X feedback because 1) Apple can't afford to lose or alienate it's current base 2) It will be under great scrutiny to hit a home run 3) Not enough developers are going to be ready with Carbon apps, so Classic will be a fact of life and 9 can not just be abandoned.

>>I want it to be better than OS 9. It has to be... otherwise I'll be out of a job.

>I have a hard time believing your livelyhood is dependent on something as trivial as Popup folders.

I understand where Chown is coming from and I don't think he was saying that if pop-up folder are left out that he will be out of a job. I think he (she?) is saying that if Apple alienates it's current base they will have a hard time surviving. In order for Apple's base to switch, OS X must offer compelling advantages and those advantages have to be most obvious to Apple's core users: graphics professionals, education clients, and home users. The heart of the matter is making the transition as smooth as possible. I believe the best way to do this is to offer a system with a familiar face, but one whose advanced features can be grown into. I do not believe OS X does this right now. It limits too many basic choices and tries to re-invent too many behaviors. For most Mac Users and professionals the operating system is the Finder and the Finder alone. The terminal, samba,xwindows and the rest will never be part of their experience. The OS X finder offers one major innovation: the column view. And in many other ways, the the OS X finder in it's current beta form (yes I know it is a beta) is inferior to the OS 9 Finder. Maybe you disagree. But I would ask you to try to build a complicated website in both and tell me which one is most efficient. Shouldn't the X finder be BETTER. Isn't it right to make noise? And what is the Mac all about anyway? I would argue it is all about ease of use and good design. Make no bones about it OS X is a "bet the company" type play. If people don't adopt it in droves, Apple's current 3% will become 1%. So I feel it is absolutely important for all of us to talk about, think about, and even complain about OS X. Doing so will ultimately make it even more delightful and delicious for us all.

"In order for Apple's base to switch, OS X must offer compelling advantages and those advantages have to be most obvious to Apple's core users: graphics professionals, education clients, and home users."

But let's not forget that OS X has the potential to expand that market to web developers (being one, I find OS X an -ideal- environment for web development) and system admins.

If Apple slides too far back towards OS 9, they won't pull in that potential market. No good having a *nix underbelly if you can't get at it. (For instance, I've always been dumbfounded that I needed a 3rd party app in order to ping a server...)

[Milio]

I figure that if I had wanted to run *nix, I would have.

I hope Apple isn't as short-sighted as Jaded might be--risk displeasing its current hardcore users who love the classic Mac OS for the ease-of-use because of the thinking OS X could expand the company's into all new markets. I'm willing to wager OS X is not going increase Apple's market share significantly. I observe most people who aren't using Macs because they balk at the thought of buying Apple's propriety Mac hardware (pricing, lack of SoundBlaster support, high-end graphics cards, etc. Lack of games is only a side-effect.) Just look at the repeated petitions for porting Mac OS (classic or X) to Intel.

Pulling in Apple's base and expanding that base are Apple's main jobs right now.

*nix is only hidden in X if you want it to be. That's what's so great about it. I find it pretty amazing to be able to rlogin in a terminal while I'm using appleworks. But should grabbing a significant share of the *nix market be a primary Apple goal. I think not. Obviously *nix junkies are not going to switch from Solaris or Linux to X for a long long time. It is just not going to happen. They didn't switch to NextStep. They aren't switching to BeOs. Apple's only hope is to build on it's Mac base and to wow Windoze converts.

If Apple slides too far back towards OS 9, they won't pull in that potential market.

I don't think the people on these forums are trying to "slide back" to 9. I believe they are trying to make sure that what is great and functional about 9 is not lost in X. We're just trying to make X feel like an upgrade from 9 in the HI/UI department and to make long time mac users comfortable. I don't believe adding some backwards HI/UI compatibility is exclusive to new modes of doing things. The damn apple menu for example...just let users turn it on or off as an option. It's not a technically complicated fix.

Example from my life: I've been raving about X for weeks. After much prodding my girlfriend allowed me to install it on her machine (she is the ultimate non-techie guinea pig). The deal was she would use it for a week without talking to me. After four days of doing her 100% of her work in Photoshop, Appleworks and Omniweb she came to me and said we needed to talk. This is a fairly accurate paraphrase.

me: So isn't it great?

j: The desktop is confusing. I feel lost. Now I have to use the Finder [her term for Sherlock] to find everything. The windows all have the same name.

me: But it never crashes. Isn't that cool.

j: My old system never crashed either. My powerbook had been on for weeks before you screwed it up.

me: But isn't it cool.

j: The text is fuzzy. Everything is too big on my iBook. Also it is slow.

me: But aren't the shadows under the windows great?

j: Yeah, but can you show me how to turn on windowshades. When windows get little I can't tell them apart. [windows get little=minimizing]

me: Is there anything you do like?

j: I like the new way to look at files. [she was talking about the column view]. I also like the switcher [the dock]. The buttons are pretty... but

me: But what?

j: But I can't drag pictures from the browser onto the desktop and Photoshop keeps crashing and it takes forever to rebooot. [she was talking about rebooting classic]0

me: Well I can help you understall all this stuff and maybe I can fix the Photoshop problem.

j: Ummm...

me: Do you just want me to uninstall it.

j: Please!

LOL.

I just read the finesse thread. Most of those comments strike me as well considered, totally reasonable, and sound (especially my suggestion there at the end). I'm surprised that you guys are complaining about the so called "complaining". Most companies would be lucky to get so many free ideas on how to make their products better.

I think that OS X has the potential to increase the user base fairly dramatically.

The ability to port a bizzilion Unix apps to OS X and the powerful new programming environment has already started what I believe will be a flood of "new" apps and hence, users on the Mac. All of the "big fish" application vendors (Adobe, MS, MacSoft) will still get their fair share. This has opened the door for companies like Omnigroup and Epicware to get a quick foothold while the lumbering giants work to shift course.

This is great! It's also great to see bunch of people choosing to write apps because it's a fun, powerful environment to work in. Gosh it's almost like the good old days back in the mid-eighties when all of the best and most innovative programs would come out on mac first because all of the brightest programmers saw the potential the system offered.

[yoyo52]

FranklyFrank's girlfriend sounds like someone who is faced by a new paradigm and tries to apply the terms and practices of an old one. Her plight does make me LOL. I suspect a lot of people who are used to the Mac OS will have the same response. Let them keep using OS 9. It's a great system.

When I first installed OS X I had exactly the same reaction as FF's girlfriend. The difference was that I kept plugging away at it. Now, I absolutely love it. I go back to OS 9 for obvious reasons--it's hard not to use my USB peripherals; I'd rather use classic apps in the old OS, where they work as god and the programmers intended. But OS X has demonstrated to me an incredible potential. For instance, I've been running it for about three weeks now--and it has yet to crash on me. Apps do crash, especially Omniweb, which I've made my default browser and so use all the time. But the system has never crashed.

Some of the suggestions that I've read in these fora make lots of sense to me. I actually like the dock, but I can also understand that its lack of a hierarchical filing system bothers people. The Apple menu in the older systems was ok in that regard--but not good enough, so I installed BeHierarchic and Alias Menu to increase the utility of the OS. I foresee exactly the same thing happening with OS X. I've already installed wClock, which gives me time and date where I expect it--and also provides a nifty popdown calendar, much better than anything in the old OS.

Some things about OS X I do find bothersome. I hate that I can't move applications around into folders that make sense to me without having the OS duplicate the app. I hate that I can't delete an app without logging in as root administrator. I hate that moving utilities like Sherlock from the root level of the app folder makes it impossible for menu commands to find the app. I'm not versed in unix, but I assume that there are ways of correcting for some of these issues using command-line inputs. If that's the case, then I also assume that the issues will be corrected in a final release.

I actually think it's damned brave of Apple to release OS X in beta. I realize that part of the bravery was forced by circumstances--namely the delay in getting a finished product out. Nonetheless, I think it's also Apple's tribute to its user base. We're all being made part of the process by which the system is perfected. I can't imagine the same thing happening with Windoze (at least not by intention--we all know that M$ regularly release beta OSs ). Frankly, Frank, I like the idea.

[Maxx]

After reading FF's story I'll share my experience.

I've been using a beige G3 with os 8.1/8.5/8.6 happily for the past 2 1/2 years experiencing my fair share of crashes and the likes that every mac user has. (I work for a GIS software house firm and use my Mac to web design and do all the in house publishing).
We recently ordered a new G4 MP and I ordered the public beta in order to get the work done with the new Mac and mess around with OS X on the old one. The beta arrived 2 weeks ago I've installed and started playing around and I must say I really like it aside for minor gripes and the fact that it takes forever to launch apps it never crashed, I surf with both explorer and oniweb simultaniously, download/upload FTP files, use mail app, get some work done with Stone Design apps (BTW check them out they're great) mess around with the terminal everything flawlessly, of course I wouldn't mind a bit more speed, but it's a beta. Then the G4 came in, and started using the machine with OS 9. Aside from finding its gui visually "heavy" with all that grey (under OS 8.6 I used Kaleidoscope) OS 9 crashed already 6 times and I had it restored already once, all that in just 18 hours of work ! and I didn't even use anything special just photoshop, iMovie and Dreamweaver the first crash happened when I tryed to turn off the machine the first time having just played with iMovie ! I want to go back to OS X !!! And in a productive enviroment with people using computers for a living stability isn't an option.

BTW on a side note OS X generated a lot of buzz with my cooworkers (my desk is the only mac island in a sea of Windows) and it overshadowed the curiosity of Win 2000 pro wich got installed on a new machine about the same time I had OS x working.

I think there is some bright future ahead, now I'm going to install the beta on the G4 MP so I can get some work done without waiting for the machine to recover from the latest crash, now if only I could have Photoshop as a Cocoa app....

[This message has been edited by Maxx (edited 10-10-2000).]

[jblakeh1]

Great post, FF. Very insightful. I've made the same mistake many times, trying to force my excitement for new software on people who'd just assume stick with what they know. It does pose an interesting problem for Apple.

I just went to Apple's web site, to the store where X PB is. Here is how they are marketing X:
-----
Mac OS X is a new, super-modern operating system that will usher in a new era for the Macintosh. New from the ground up.
-----
...and that's exactly what it is.

I think the problems FF's girlfriend encountered could be avoided with a more polished set up assistant that explained the important differences between 9 and X.

The approach has to be considered as well, though...I doubt Apple would treat it's own customers as guinea pigs.

[mrchin]

What's the deal with the Harddrive on the desktop? Everyone keeps complaining about not having it there. Just drag it from the finder onto the desktop and there you have it, an ALIAS of the harddrive, but you won't know the difference.

My X has frozen up a couple of times though. What's up with that? especially in mail or trying to force quit mail or IE and the desktop freezing and not wanting to respond. Oh well, what's Beta mean again? oh, right work in progress.

I keep the process app in the Dock. Then when something freezes up, I open the process window, double click the process and kill it. Or try command-q from the finder, which will log you out. Upon logging back in, everything will be alright without rebooting.

FF:

"We're just trying to make X feel like an upgrade from 9 in the HI/UI department and to make long time mac users comfortable. "

I understand that, but I don't think that that's what Apple has in mind. This PB is clearly NOT an upgrade -- it's a new OS.

Now, maybe you can convince Apple to turn it back into an Upgrade, I dunno. I'll be bummed if you do, but I'm just one person.

I can totally understand a long time Mac user hating the new look and feel, hating the restrictions that come with a *nix underbelly.

That's why I'm really surprised that Apple isn't going to maintain a "Classic OS" line for at least a few years.

And I wouldn't be so sure that Linux and BeOS users won't come over. I've used Linux, and it's a chore to keep it update and running smoothly. That's why I was so excited about OS X. A lot of the linux users I know use it because they work on Unix servers, and its just smoother to work from a similar OS. They've never had the option of getting that smoothness along with a great GUI and a ton of mature, superb apps! Now they do.

Anyway, I'm odd man out here, I know. I'll let y'all get on with slamming OS X for how much it sucks because it isn't OS 9.5. And really, I DO understand that if the Mac is a TOOL for you, having it change this much is going to suck hard.

But I still think OS X ROCKS!

[rwitham]

I also agree that OSX is the greatest thing to come along in a long, long time. Personally I have not had one lick of trouble with it, and I've only had one app. crash because I dont think I had it installed in the right place. The solution....Force quit it and every thing else went on humming like nothing had happened. "WOW" When I tell that to my windows running friends at work, they just give me that strange look like, how is that possible! I'm not a power user, just an average person who loves his iMac. Actually, I was completely computer illiterate when I bought my first iMac, now I have given that one to my kids and bought another one for me. Anyways I have to go to work, but I wanted to put in my two cents. I think that with some final polishing, OSX will be a very big winner.

[abnyc]

the fact that apple is moving towards enterprise objects is awesome.
people are going to be able to run sites directly off of their desktops
or laptops with quicktime movies that can be streamed, web objects, apache.
Awesome stuff is on the way.

I also heard that they are finally going to intergrate VPN support directly in to the OS. like PPPoE and all the stuff that has been developed for the network kernel extension in OS 9 is going to be built in.

we sit. we wait.

I hope adobe is going to be able to port it's web production studio and adobe premiere to OS X fast enough or when it ships.
actually, I hope apple is able to port FCP to OS X in time. it just might be feakin' awesome. I'm having a great experience with os X so far. but the speed issues are driving me nuts on my 400mhz B&W G3 w/384MB

\> Anyway, I'm odd man out here, I know. I'll let y'all get on with slamming OS X
> for how much it sucks because it isn't OS 9.5. And really, I DO understand
> that if the Mac is a TOOL for you, having it change this much is going to suck
> hard.

You totally misunderstand. I'm not slamming OS X (and I don't think that's the general tone of any of these boards). I think OS X is the greatest thing since sliced bread,but given the realities of the the Mac Universe and Apple's stated plans (that it will be a consumer OS), I think much more should be done to accommodate garden variety Mac users who love their current systems. This doesn't have to be exclusive to experiencing all that is good and new in OS X.

For example in DR3 you could remove the extras file and see the OS in a platinum theme. This capability was specifically removed from X because Apple doesn't like themes. I personally like Aqua and the only thing I really miss about platinum is windowshades, but wouldn't it be nice if it were an option for those who live and breath platinum. Hell, I think there should be a NeXT theme for those who loved it and maybe even a Windows theme, just so people could see how much windows blows.

The key I think is allowing people to have choices. For example I like the fact that my desktop in OS X is clean (no hard drives, hidden dock). I'm a radical in this regard... if it were up to me the top menu bar would be hidden too. But my girlfriend and many others like her really REALLY like the fact that their little HD icon is on the desktop. It gives them security. "Ok all my files are in there." It makes sense. When she connects to a graphics server it pops up and instantly lets her know it is there and it is on. Under X she has to check to see if it is connected (alias's don't vanish when the drive is not mounted). This is confusing to her and it will be to thousands of other non-technical Mac users out there. What's worse giving users an option to see HDs mount on their desktops or alienating them? I think the latter is worse option by far.

Many of FF's girlfriend's problems could be overcome by a good tutorial program that runs on first install. The Mac used to have excellent tutorials and gradually lost them. I think there are some stuck in the Mac OS 9 Help, but nobody uses them. Apple is so intent on getting people on the internet in 5 minutes that they don't put in a tutorial for fear of slowing you down.