[sproutsie]

I am wondering it if is worth it to buy a cheapo PCI G3 upgrade to plug into my 7500 (OWC has a Powerlogix one for 100 bucks). Will I be able to run OSX on it? I was looking at performance differences between G3 and G4 in the older power macs, and G3 seems the better deal, since there aren't significant differences for most apps (according to these tests I found). But then I started thinking that maybe it wouldn't be worth it, if I wont be able to run OSX and all of the other Carbon/Cocoa based apps I have on my tibook.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated- I am exhausted by all of my searching the internet for answers!

thanks...

Originally posted by sproutsie:
<STRONG>I am wondering it if is worth it to buy a cheapo PCI G3 upgrade to plug into my 7500 (OWC has a Powerlogix one for 100 bucks). Will I be able to run OSX on it? I was looking at performance differences between G3 and G4 in the older power macs, and G3 seems the better deal, since there aren't significant differences for most apps (according to these tests I found). But then I started thinking that maybe it wouldn't be worth it, if I wont be able to run OSX and all of the other Carbon/Cocoa based apps I have on my tibook.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated- I am exhausted by all of my searching the internet for answers!

thanks...</STRONG>

I have a 7300/180 that I upgraded to a g3/400. For an upgrade of a little over $100, I am happy with it. Some things to note:

Be sure that you can change the clock speed on the upgrade card. I had some instability problems with it running at 400 becuause it was trying to push the 7300s system bus (45mhz) faster than it could run. (I have a 7500 that did the same thing with the card in it)

Get ram! Fill that puppy up! I bought some ram off of ebay and it works ok. Your mileage may vary.

Be sure to get cache enabler software. Either from Rempel's page on OWC or from powerlogix. It definitely makes a difference once the cache is enabled.

XPostfacto from owc works like a champ for installing OSX


Good luck!

[sproutsie]

thanks for the info- i will try it out!

[D'Espice]

I agree, it's worth the money. I've upgraded my nearly five year old PM7300 with an Sonnet G3/450 card with 1MB Backside Cache. OS 9.1 now runs really fast, compared to before it's amazing (had the 166 Mhz PPC604e).
And I also agree with getting more RAM. I had 48MB and bought another 64MB (summing up to a total of 112MB) together with the CPU-Upgrade, it also makes a huge difference.
But to get one thing straight: Forget OS X on this machine, It'll be depressingly slow. The best thing you can do is run OS 8.6 or 9.1, everything else makes absolutely no sense, especially X.

If you're really planning to work with this machine, the 400 or 450 Mhz Upgrade will be worth every single Cent, they really boost up your Mac. I wouldn't recommend the 500 MHz Upgrade though, usually it's to expensive FWIW. The best deal would be the 450 MHz G3 with 1MB Backside Cache. You might get the 400 MHz G3 a lot cheaper, but remember: It only has 512KB Backside Cache. You will feel the difference in certain applications (Like Photoshop or Ragtime). I'm really glad I purchased the Upgrade instead of a new Macintosh computer. As a student, I'm always on short budget. I had the possibility either to buy an used G3/266 Beige or to upgrade mine. The price was nearly the same, and I'm glad I've decided to upgrade. I guess, a 450MHz G3 is simply faster than a G3/266 ever will be.

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: D'Espice ]

[sproutsie]

well, which is it? i keep getting contradictory info on os x and older macs- some say it wont be fast enough to warrent using it, others say it is fine. it isn't crucial, i guess, but i am curious as to why there is such a divergence of opinion, and i have to say i am a complete convert to os x on my 667 tibook- every once in a while i have to go back to 9 and i loathe it!

i think i will go for the upgrade card, at any rate. so, my next question is, does anyone have any suggestions as to what is better- xlr8's zif stuff, or powerlogix's powerforce g3?

thanks for the help- the thought of having a g3 machine in an old 7500 box is rather appealing...

[hempcamp]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
<STRONG>I agree, it's worth the money. ...
And I also agree with getting more RAM....
But to get one thing straight: Forget OS X on this machine, It'll be depressingly slow. </STRONG>

Yep, it's probably worth the money if you have the money to spend. Yes, RAM can make a hell of a lot of difference no matter what processor you have.

But NO, do NOT "forget OS X on this machine"!!! I have it on very good authority (seen and tested it myself) that even on the 604e processor given enough memory (at least 256 MB), OS X is downright useable for almost every normal task. Apple has the world believing in a very huge lie that you need an uber-fast G4 to run OS X.

As I've said on this forum a zillion times before, the only serious limitation (i.e. can't be upgraded) your old PowerMac 7500 has compared to newer PowerMac G3 and G4 machines is that it has a slower system bus (50Mhz) and no AGP slot. This simply doesn't matter for most people because what mostly matters when it comes to computer speed is the bus speed between the CPU and the L2 cache. All upgrade cards I've seen have appx. 200Mhz bus speeds between the CPU and the L2 cache built into the processor card.

That said, if you do lots of audio and video work (like me) with your 7500, you'll probably want clock cycles and VRAM free for those tasks instead of the hoggish Aqua environment. Therefore, I'm sticking with OS 8.6 until I get a fast (400Mhz+) upgrade card for this machine.

Basically, there are two kinds of people in this world: those who take scraps and make them into beautiful quilts, and those who throw everything away. Be the latter, not the former! Upgrade that 7500!

--Chris

PM 7500/604e 200Mhz
4 gig SCSI
U2W SCSI Controller (for which I desperately need drives!)
256MB/512K cache
OS 8.6

[HankG]

Originally posted by sproutsie:
<STRONG>I am wondering it if is worth it to buy a cheapo PCI G3 upgrade to plug into my 7500 (OWC has a Powerlogix one for 100 bucks). Will I be able to run OSX on it</STRONG>

I've got an XLR8 G3-333 upgrade in my 7500/100. While I was at their website earlier looking for a solution to my OS installation problem, I noticed that their newest software control panel says "XLR8 MACh Speed Control will configure all of XLR8's CPU upgrade cards for maximum performance under Mac OS 7.5.2 through Mac OS X."

This implies that there is at least some possibility of you running OS X. Check out the rest of their site www.xlr8.com to see if you can find more info.

HTH

[D'Espice]

Of course there is at least the possibility, but on the other hand: Is it really worth the effort? I've seen OS X on a PowerMac 7500 with 256MB and a G4/400 Upgrade processor.
All the applications were as fast as they were on OS 9 before, but the OS itself was really slow. Moving windows in realtime wasn't possible, nor was scrolling. I don't think it's worth the effort and money. Sure, you'll be able to install it and run applications, but it'll be slow, very slow.

[DrBoar]

I also suggest a G3 400-450 card and lots of RAM.
Do note that the slow graphics is a bottle neck. Replacing a 601/100 with 604E/200 will double the graphics performance but then adding a 450MHz G3 really does not add much video performance!
If you do not need OS X get a Machvision card for 30 dollars from xlr8.com or a Voodoo 3 card

The 7500 can still fly!

[Langdon]

Originally posted by DrBoar:
<STRONG>or a Voodoo 3 card

</STRONG>

X will crawl on any 7500 due to bus speed, and the VooDoo cards are NOT supported in OS X so its not worth buying if you plan on running that OS.

[hempcamp]

Originally posted by Langdon:
<STRONG>X will crawl on any 7500 due to bus speed, and the VooDoo cards are NOT supported in OS X so its not worth buying if you plan on running that OS.</STRONG>

Bollox. Pure propaganda. I have said it ten million times, yet no one seems to listen... the limited bus speed really makes very little difference unless you are rendering Steve's next Pixar film. OS X hogs many things which can affect its performance, but bus speed is *not* one of them, especially if you have an upgrade card. "Crawling" for one user (usually hardcore gamers and the like) is usually "wow, that's pretty quick!" to another (the rest of us who don't mind waiting a mere 1 or 2 seconds for something to happen).

Here's why: what really matters to OS X (or any OS for that matter) is the bus speed between the processor and the L2 cache. With most G3 and G4 upgrade cards out there, this is around 200Mhz. The 50Mhz bus limitation on the motherboard will only affect I/O, such as intensive hard disk access. IE, Microsoft Word, and most of what everyday users do hardly even approach saturating the motherboard bus.

The bottom line is that OS X has a lot of potential on an older PowerMac; it's up to you (and your finances!) to make use of that potential. If you don't have the time, the gumption, or the $money$ to prep your machine for OS X, stick with OS 8.6 or 9.1. But if you're really itching to see how far that old PowerMac will push the limits, by all means give OS X a shot!!!

True, though, that your Voodoo card will not work. Get an ATI Orion or the like if you want decent graphics acceleration in OS X. You will also need a minimum of 256MB RAM. Other than that, I've seen OS X work just fine (for web browsing, word processing, and the like) on a 200Mhz 604e! It *didn't* crawl, it was perfectly usable.

--Chris

PM 7500/604e 200Mhz
4 gig SCSI
256MB/512K cache
OS 8.6

[D'Espice]

hempcamp:

Your statement started to make me think... Maybe I'll give OS X a shot, I'll just need more RAM, I guess I won't succeed with 112MB

[HankG]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
<STRONG>hempcamp:

Your statement started to make me think... Maybe I'll give OS X a shot, I'll just need more RAM, I guess I won't succeed with 112MB </STRONG>

Where's the cheapest place to get RAM for a 7500? eBay?

[xmishx]

OWC has memory cheaper than ebay. Here is a list for your computer.
http://eshop.macsales.com/MyOWC/Upgr...=Show+Upgrades

It is where I usually get my memory.

X

[iKevin]

This thread has inspired me....Just purchased a 7500 that i'm going to upgrade and use at my office.

[sproutsie]

well, thanks for all of the peptalks- i have no qualms about trying os x- if it doesn't run well, screw it. but if it does, then happy for me. i am eyeing a sonnet pci 500 g3 upgrade that seems to do well with 7500s and os x, so wish me luck. and yes, i have enough ram. that is the first thing i bought- my new baby may be a tibook (with 768 mgs, recently augmented by yours truly), but i have been using macs since i got a mac plus in 1990 or so- ram is always the easiest way to boost things up.

thanks...now if the stupid used mac company i got the thing from would just send me the replacement (the first one they sent was a dud), i could pop the lid and start throwing in all of the crap i got to make the 7500 livable!

[hempcamp]

Originally posted by HankG:
<STRONG>Where's the cheapest place to get RAM for a 7500? eBay?</STRONG>

In general, eBay is the *last* place I'd buy memory. The only exception is if you have a trusted eBay seller from whom you've bought stuff for your Mac before.

Otherworld Computing, Velocity Upgrades, and SMS Assembly all have great prices on RAM right now (less than $30 a stick for 128MB sticks). Get EDO sticks -- even though your motherboard doesn't support it directly, EDO is engineered better and performs better with G3/G4 upgrade cards.

I recently bought 2 128MB sticks from SMS Assembly for around $23 apiece. Shipped very fast, and tested and working fine in my 7500.

--Chris

P.S. I made a move today that will prevent me from ever running OS X on my machine (added Ultra2 Wide SCSI adapter that is not OS X supported). I wish the rest of you luck! For now, I'm happy with 8.6.

PM 7500/604e 200Mhz
2 x 4.3 GB Barracudas/Advansys U2W SCSI256MB RAM
OS 8.6
(This machine rocks!)

[HankG]

Originally posted by xmishx:
<STRONG>OWC has memory cheaper than ebay. Here is a list for your computer.
http://eshop.macsales.com/MyOWC/Upgrades.cfm?TI=3905&model=31&type=Memory&sho upgrds=Show+Upgrades

It is where I usually get my memory.

X</STRONG>

Thanks

[HankG]

Max memory for a 7500?

The AppleSpec pages say the maximum RAM for the 7500 is 512 MB, but it also says that "128MB DIMMs can be used, but have not been tested"

512 MB would be one 64meg stick in each of the 8 slots. So is the 512MB maximum determined by system restictions or is that a number they came up with by 'doing the math'? I mean, could you get more than 512MB usable memory by using 128MB DIMMS, or would the system "top out" at 512 no matter what you stuck in there?

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: HankG ]

[hempcamp]

Originally posted by HankG:
<STRONG>Max memory for a 7500?
I mean, could you get more than 512MB usable memory by using 128MB DIMMS, or would the system "top out" at 512 no matter what you stuck in there?
</STRONG>

Absolutely! You can put up to 1 GB memory in the 7500 (should you need that much!) using 128MB DIMMs.

Ain't the 7500 a fabulous machine?

--Chris

PM 7500/604e 200Mhz
2 x 4.3 GB 7200 RPM Barracudas
AdvanSys U2W SCSI Controller
256 MB RAM
OS 8.6
(I love my 7500!)

[D'Espice]

Originally posted by hempcamp:
<STRONG>
P.S. I made a move today that will prevent me from ever running OS X on my machine (added Ultra2 Wide SCSI adapter that is not OS X supported). I wish the rest of you luck! For now, I'm happy with 8.6.
</STRONG>

Uh, I didn't think of that before I bought mine... I bought an Adaptec 2940UW, is it supported? Also, what else do I need to install OS X on a PM7300? I've heard this computer isn't directly supported by OS X, and I'll need some sort of hack for it.
I've tried OS X yesterday on a iBook, G3/500 and 256MB. All the stories I've heard so far, from "Scrolling very slow" to "whole system extremely slow" turned out to be wrong, it felt quite snappy. That made me really think about buying 256MB of RAM (btw, which of these companies ships their RAM to Germany? It's very expensive here, about $80 for 128MB) and trying OS X. Maybe it'll be worth it.
Uh, and one more thing: Is my Voodoo3 3000 PCI supported?

[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: D'Espice ]

[D'Espice]

&lt;please delete&gt;

[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: D'Espice ]

[hempcamp]

Originally posted by D'Espice:
<STRONG>....Adaptec 2940UW, is it supported? Also, what else do I need to install OS X on a PM7300?....some sort of hack for it.
.... (btw, which of these companies ships their RAM to Germany?....
Uh, and one more thing: Is my Voodoo3 3000 PCI supported?
</STRONG>

The 2940UW is not currently supported, BUT Adaptec is one of the few companies that has committed to developing OS X drivers for their older cards. Expect one soon.

You need Xpostfacto, OS 9 installer CD, and OS X installer CD. Xpostfacto is available (free download) from http://eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter/

There was recently a discussion about foreign shipping of RAM on the PCI-Powermacs list sponsored by Low End Mac. Several companies, including Velocity which had 128MB sticks for $19USD recently, charge an arm and a leg overseas shipping. Look around though. I like Other World Computing (http://eshop.macsales.com/) and SMS Assembly (http://www.smsassembly.com)

&lt;Update&gt;I almost forgot! The Voodoo3 is currently not supported. Generally only ATI PCI cards are.&lt;/Update&gt;

Hope this helps!

--Chris

PowerMac 7500/604e 200Mhz
256MB RAM
2 x 4.3GB UW Barracudas on U2W Advansys
OS 8.6

[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: hempcamp ]

[D'Espice]

Actually, it did help me very much, thanks. Now I now that neither my SCSI-controller nor my Voodoo3-card are supported. I guess that means I won't do it.

[v8q]

I will start with a contridiction and say that OS 10.1.3 runs just fine for my needs on a ppc8500/G4 400/512 meg ram.
I am quite pleased with the results. it runs OSX much better than my i-mac DV/400. It even does i-movie no problem with a generic OHCI USB/Firewire card.

The contridiction?
I tried to re-install OSX and for some reason I can not. I keep getting errors during the install. I know the disk is good, and the partition I am installing to is the one that was previously working fine.
Has anybody had this problem? I currently can not get OSX to load (using XPostFacto).

[jrlp]

Originally posted by v8q:
<STRONG>The contridiction?
I tried to re-install OSX and for some reason I can not. I keep getting errors during the install. I know the disk is good, and the partition I am installing to is the one that was previously working fine.
Has anybody had this problem? I currently can not get OSX to load (using XPostFacto).</STRONG>

Did you select Reinstall BootX and Reinstall Extensions in the XPostFacto Advanced Menu? Can't remember if these were selected by default during my initial install, but you might check and give it a whirl...

Joel
7300/XLR8 G3 500/ OSX 10.1.4

[Walter J. Ferstl]

Unless you already have lots of RAM installed in your 7500, spend a good portion of your budget on additional RAM. Having 128 or 256 MB of RAM will be a good thing, machine upgraded to G3 or not.
If there is enough budget left, get something like the PCI G3 update you mentioned ($100 looks like a very good deal). Do not bother to get an upgrade faster than 400 MHz, as the 7500 will be running at a bus speed between 40 and 48 MHz (theoretically up to 50 MHz).
A PowerLogix G3 upgrade I have is now running at 400 MHz (although rated higher, nominally) because of motherboard/bus vs. processor ratio issues. For some time, I had to run it at 366 MHz even until I threw out a compromised RAM module.
So don't be _too_ cheap on RAM.

Regards,

Walter.

[Walter J. Ferstl]

P.S.
Don't forget your hard drive ;-)
There are good IBM SCSI drives available in the 4.5 to 9 GB range (DDRS, DNES series) at affordable street prices.

W.

[Westbo]

The 7500 series was/is the most underestimated CPU series in its generation. (At that time, everyone wanted the more glamourous 8500 or 9500 towers). I had a 7600 that started out as a 604/132 MHz and was able to be upgraded to a G3/400. And it's still one of the most expandable and EASY to upgrade boxes. Yep, you can load that puppy up with 1 GB RAM. The ONLY drawback is the bus speed which runs 49-50ish. If you are doing intensive heavy duty graphics, that can be a factor. I would however, recommend NOT screwing around with the clock speed. As it can run OS X (with some tweaking), be aware that Apple does not "officially" support any
pre native G3s running OS X. but who needs it. With all of Mac Heads running rampant around here, you'll get all the support you'll ever need!

Originally posted by hempcamp:
<STRONG>

Absolutely! You can put up to 1 GB memory in the 7500 (should you need that much!) using 128MB DIMMs.

Ain't the 7500 a fabulous machine?

--Chris

PM 7500/604e 200Mhz
2 x 4.3 GB 7200 RPM Barracudas
AdvanSys U2W SCSI Controller
256 MB RAM
OS 8.6
(I love my 7500!)</STRONG>

[hempcamp]

Originally posted by Walter J. Ferstl:
<STRONG>Do not bother to get an upgrade faster than 400 MHz, as the 7500 will be running at a bus speed between 40 and 48 MHz (theoretically up to 50 MHz).
</STRONG>

I can't speak for Powerlogix (yet), but XLR8 G3/G4 cards rated at 450 and 500Mhz run just peachy at their rated speeds on the 7500. It is only when you push the limits (i.e. overclock the rated speed) that you get problems. Many tests show that an XLR8 G4/450 upgraded 7500 can hold its weight against a PowerMac G4 400, except when it comes to graphics (because of the AGP in the G4 tower).

--Chris
PowerMac 7500/200
18GB U2W SCSI
256MB
OS 8.6, 9.1
Powerlogix 500Mhz G3 on its way!