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Chuckit · Jun 10, 2007, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

What do you mean? IMHO that's one of the single best features of OS X … I hate that you have to `look for' Windows apps' menu bars.

Yeah. With the universal menubar combined with contextual menus and keyboard shortcuts, you've really got the best of both worlds, I think. I do agree that something needs to be done about the menubar with multiple displays, though, because the current solution seems a bit odd.

OreoCookie · Jun 10, 2007, 02:39 PM

Hmmm, perhaps, although I can't really think of a good way to do it: repeating the same menu bar? Nah, confusing. just one loooong menu bar? Nope.

Do you have any suggestion?

Chuckit · Jun 10, 2007, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Hmmm, perhaps, although I can't really think of a good way to do it: repeating the same menu bar? Nah, confusing. just one loooong menu bar? Nope.

Do you have any suggestion?

My idea would be to have the menubar follow the cursor from monitor to monitor. The idea of a universal menubar is only really useful when it's positioned with regard to the cursor anyway.

Chuckit · Jun 10, 2007, 03:10 PM

OpenStep, if I recall, had a draggable menu list rather than a Mac-style menu bar. I've always though that looked intriguing, though I admit I never used the OS.

Boston_Designer · Jun 10, 2007, 04:03 PM

Well... again... I'm not saying that the exact way Windows™ does it is the best way... nor that Mac OSX's way is horrible... I just think we've all grown accustomed to the paradigm of even NEEDING what we've come to accept as a Menu Bar. I'm sure there's got to be an even 'better' way of accessing system and application functionality.

I'm sure that there's a yet-to-be implemented means of navigating and executing commands with your cursor that will make a heirarchical menu paradigm seem archaic. Whether I see it in *my* lifetime or not... who knows...? I just really think that what worked back in the days of the first Macintosh and over the past couple of decades... has room to be rethought and improved upon from a UI and experiential point of view.

I wish *I* was that bright to be the one to solve it. :o)

-sf

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 10, 2007, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

OpenStep, if I recall, had a draggable menu list rather than a Mac-style menu bar. I've always though that looked intriguing, though I admit I never used the OS.

Ace of Spades · Jun 10, 2007, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

What do you mean? IMHO that's one of the single best features of OS X … I hate that you have to `look for' Windows apps' menu bars.

same here, i think the menu bar is great
in fact I've gotten so used to it I sometimes have problems when I use Windows

Super Mario · Jun 10, 2007, 11:27 PM

Menu bar isn't going away anytime soon. Apple better show a good interface change today because I am loving the Aero Glass in Vista.

schalliol · Jun 10, 2007, 11:37 PM

Just get a mouse with customizable functions that can pop up one on demand (my ExpertMouse [trackball] does), or get a share/freeware tool to pop up the menus on command. I know I saw something that does this a week or two ago, precisely for those with lots of menus.

I would say that savvy users would immensely benefit from the FULL keyboard access I have been requesting for quite some time, as it allows you to be much more efficient. In fact, I know that in some banking firms, investment bankers are trained on Excel without mice expressly because it's far more efficient when you get used to it. Go ahead and be skeptical, but it's hard to knock it until you've tried heavy keyboard access on a GUI that is menat for it for a fairly long period of time (reference Quicksilver). That said, a mouse is great too.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 11, 2007, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Super Mario

Menu bar isn't going away anytime soon. Apple better show a good interface change today because I am loving the Aero Glass in Vista.

I think you are honestly the first person to say you love it. Everyone else says flashy or glitzy but they don't "love" it.

But I actually agree with you... on the store shelf Vista does look fancier and Apple really needs to counteract that with a one two punch to make it look 5 years old and they have to do it tomorrow!

Super Mario · Jun 11, 2007, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES

I think you are honestly the first person to say you love it.

I'm not. I waited until quite some Mac users said it was very good until I said something. I didn't want to be alone

Aero Glass is very good theme. The use of shaders to create a blur effect is very well done. The way windows appear is very good too. Easy settings to change transparency and color too. Most importantly it is very snappy on my craptacular Pentium 4 with integrated graphics that fortunately supports Aero Glass.

I noticed Apple has the first half of the animation (icons animate and grow large when a file is opened) and Windows has the second half of the animation (the document window grows into view). Now we need the full animation of an live preview icon growing into a document.

schalliol · Jun 11, 2007, 12:30 AM

That would be nifty and all, but I think a few others are attempting to look closer to form following function (plus snazziness). It seems that the eyecandy may be counterproductive, even thought it's cool.

Super Mario · Jun 11, 2007, 12:55 AM

There's no counter productive eye candy in Aero Glass or Aqua. Beryl has the useless eye candy.

Aero Glass is consistent and fresh. Aqua needs a fresh makeover and consistency because it is really old now. I use Uno to make it consistent but even then the window manager doesn't blend with so many of Apple's UI elements like the new semi transparent black tool palettes, the title bar and Leopard's Time Machine. There has to be a makeover revealed today.

passmaster16 · Jun 11, 2007, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Leopard is based on a good foundation and improves it marginally.

I think that we have been getting used to drastic changes with every release of OS X that we've come to expect the same amount of "groundbreaking" features in future releases. One side effect of the significant progress over the past few years is that the OS became more solid and therefore less changes need to be made to future releases. It's like being a victim of your own success.

Admittedly I was expecting a little more with 10.5 if for none other reason that it's been over 2 years since the last release. I was also figuring Apple would want to do something extra special just for the sake of stacking up against Vista. But realistically, what more could have Apple done? I suppose a complete GUI redesign but I can deal with at least getting some consistency. There are probably some other features that we would have liked to see. I think what we're seeing is an OS that is getting to be very mature. That does not reduce our expectations, though. I'm hoping that 10.5 will have some under the hood improvements that will be important now and into the future. For now while I think this will be a nice release, but I'll have to reserve judgement until I have a copy in my hands.

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 11, 2007, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

Looks good, Apple. (Except for the translucent menu-bar. That's just retarded.)

Ya I don't get that either. Is that just when in the finder or every app?

besson3c · Jun 11, 2007, 02:11 AM

They haven't FTFF until it performs better than utter crap, particularly with network volumes. The jury is still out on that until it can be tested. I had very little problem with the Tiger Finder interface.

Horsepoo!!! · Jun 11, 2007, 02:48 AM

Finally, the Finder will probably stop sucking. Too bad there wasn't any other new feature other than the stacks.

QuickView and everything else existed before and we all knew about it.

Horsepoo!!! · Jun 11, 2007, 02:48 AM

Finally, the Finder will probably stop sucking. Too bad there wasn't any other new feature other than the stacks.

QuickView and everything else existed before and we all knew about it.

moonmonkey · Jun 11, 2007, 09:00 AM

hope so!

davesimondotcom · Jun 11, 2007, 09:52 AM

RE: The menu bar.

See: Fitts' Law.

'Nuff Said.

(Although I do agree that a better solution for multiple monitors would be nice. Or Apple should just give me a 30" for free.)

analogue SPRINKLES · Jun 11, 2007, 10:45 AM

The menu bar can stay, it just needs to be bigger as on most monitors it is tiny.

moonmonkey · 01:53 PM

NEW FINDER! AND 3D DOCK!!!

tkmd · Jun 11, 2007, 01:58 PM

just watching it - I swear I am going to fall asleep - all this, with the exception of "stacks " is old news. Perhaps new feature #10 will be cool- oh no wait thats prolly going to time machine.....

zzzzzz

moonmonkey · Jun 11, 2007, 02:02 PM

Yep!

tkmd · Jun 11, 2007, 02:05 PM

Where are these "super duper, double-secret" features?

moonmonkey · Jun 11, 2007, 02:12 PM

new finder, desktop, dock and unified theme.

jam8 · Jun 11, 2007, 02:13 PM

Maybe there aren't any? =/

earthlings · Jun 11, 2007, 03:03 PM

I can't wait any longer, not even to October for Leopard. WHY October?

mdc · Jun 11, 2007, 03:13 PM

After watching the videos on Apple's website for the new Finder and Desktop I am excited for 10.5, but honestly, no more than I was yesterday.
I'm happy Mac OS is going to be completely unified and I like coverflow in Finder, but I'm not sure how much I'll use it.

lpkmckenna · Jun 11, 2007, 03:30 PM

Looks good, Apple. (Except for the translucent menu-bar. That's just retarded.)

lpkmckenna · Jun 11, 2007, 03:32 PM

...

besson3c · Jun 11, 2007, 04:01 PM

They haven't FTFF until it performs better than utter crap, particularly with network volumes. The jury is still out on that until it can be tested. I had very little problem with the Finder interface.

besson3c · Jun 11, 2007, 04:04 PM

They haven't FTFF until it performs better than utter crap, particularly with network volumes. The jury is still out on that until it can be tested. I had very little problem with the Tiger Finder interface.

CatOne · Jun 11, 2007, 04:08 PM

Try Coverflow with Spotlight. NOW when you do a search, and you get back 25 documents, you can do a Quicklook at each document to actually FIND which of the documents you were looking for.

This makes Spotlight actually usable now.

CatOne · Jun 11, 2007, 04:09 PM

Try Coverflow with Spotlight. NOW when you do a search, and you get back 25 documents, you can do a Quicklook at each document to actually FIND which of the documents you were looking for.

This makes Spotlight actually usable now.

MattJeff · Jun 11, 2007, 04:19 PM

where is the secret stuff they were talking about?

mindwaves · 04:29 PM

I am actually quite impressed with what I have seen thus far. Maybe they have fixed the Finder. It surely looks that way from an aesthetics POV IMO. But of course, the back end of it has to be revamped accordingly.

I think I will have to settle for the Ultimate version however. I like my extra features!

DuckRacer1 · Jun 11, 2007, 04:21 PM

Hmm. The secret features seem to be the new Finder, Dock, and Desktop. My thoughts:

The new Finder looks good. Definitely better than what we have now, and it'll probably calm the haters. Coverflow looks cool, but I'm guessing it'll be on the gimmicky side. I don't have a network to play with, so I won't be using any file sharing features, but it looks improved nonetheless.

The Dock looks good. I absolutely love the stacks - having a designated place for downloads is what I've always wanted, and the other possibilities with them are exciting as well. But other than that and the reflectiveness of the dock (which will give those dock clones in Windows a run for their money), it's more or less the same.

The desktop, however, I'm iffy about. What's the purpose of it now, to display a picture? Even though the Downloads stack is better than having a mess in the desktop, at least it gave the thing some purpose. And the transparent menu bar? Get outta here. It looks like some cheap ShapeShifter thing they tossed in to say to Vista "oh hey, we have transparent goodies as well!" Seriously hope they let you use the normal menubar from Tiger.

My opinion on Leopard as a whole? It doesn't look like a massive step up from what I'm doing now. Don't care about stationery in Mail, or the note-taking and RSS reader capabilities in them either. I don't use Spotlight, and I only use the dashboard a few times a week. Time Machine requires a separate hard drive, and I'm not forking out $100 so I can back up files I never lose anyway. No need for Spaces either.

But hey, even though I don't need those features, I'll probably end up using them in some way, and the upgrade fee is $120. May as well upgrade for the sake of being up-to-date and enjoy some 10.5 apps like DL2.

mdc · Jun 11, 2007, 04:22 PM

I think the secret stuff was the new Finder and the new Desktop.

kmkkid · Jun 11, 2007, 04:40 PM

I think Apple is full of crap. OMG it's coverflow for the finder!!!!! As if we couldn't see that coming 10 miles away.

Leopard = The Windows ME of Mac OS X

Chuckit · Jun 11, 2007, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

I think Apple is full of crap. OMG it's coverflow for the finder!!!!! As if we couldn't see that coming 10 miles away.

Leopard = The Windows ME of Mac OS X

Not really fair. WinME was based on a shitty foundation and did little to improve it. Leopard is based on a good foundation and improves it marginally. And it looks like they may have FTFF.

lpkmckenna · Jun 11, 2007, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by DuckRacer1

The new Finder looks good. Definitely better than what we have now, and it'll probably calm the haters.

rolfcopter!

Nothing will stop the haters.

parsec_kadets · Jun 11, 2007, 05:14 PM

For those who are down on 10.5, I'm not really sure what you're expecting. Were the "Top Secret" features a let down? Perhaps when you factor in all the hype due to the use of "Top Secret". I do wish Steve had just said in the past that not everyting was ready to be shown and left it at that. Regardless, look at 10.5 as a whole: updated Finder/Desktop, updated Spotlight/Quick Look, updated Mail, updated iCal, updated iChat, Spaces, Time Machine, Front Row 2, Boot Camp, updated Safari, Back to Mac, and CoreAnimation. That's just the list of stuff off the top of my head. Not all of this was demoed today, but it is mentioned on Apple's site. There's a lot of good stuff there. Remember what the demo for 10.4 was like? I know I walked away thinking that Dashboard was the only thing I really cared about. There's a lot more that I care about in my list above. Hell, Stacks and Spaces alone make 10.5 worthwhile for me.

tkmd · Jun 11, 2007, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by kmkkid

I think Apple is full of crap. OMG it's coverflow for the finder!!!!! As if we couldn't see that coming 10 miles away.

Leopard = The Windows ME of Mac OS X

definitely - looks like Wall Street was unimpressed too- APPL fell almost $4.50/ share !!!!

SirCastor · Jun 11, 2007, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by tkmd

definitely - looks like Wall Street was unimpressed too- AAPL fell almost $4.50/ share !!!!

At least I can buy at $4.50 less than before...

I must've lost my fanboyism recently... I didn't follow the keynote stuff, and when I got to checking, I looked around and said "Oh cool, that'll probably make things a little easier."

Will I buy Leopard? Probably. Finding and Organizing will be better, and I need that. Also, from what I've read ZFS is gonna be nice...

Boston_Designer · Jun 11, 2007, 07:12 PM

Well - I'm in the camp of being underwhelmed because I let the idea of "Top Secret Features" run amok in my brain for a few months. I'm not saying that the new Leopard features aren't impressive... I kinda like almost all of it. The problem is, 'most' of that stuff seemed like logical evolutions of current iterations of technologies. No surprises, really.

We've seen coverflow before, we've been discussing the idea of "stacks" for quite some time, The dock breaking the plane from 2D to a 3D plane is different and possibly better... but still not a quantum leap, the ability to preview documents other than a generic icon is not a new idea, we already knew about all of the Time Machine, iChat improvements, Spaces, etc. etc. etc.

It's all a great improvement over Tiger... I agree 100%.

I just wish I didn't allow myself to read too-far into "Top Secret". I set myself up for a letdown. I was hoping/expecting some major paradigm shifts in User Interface / User Interaction.

I will still be there buying it once it's available. I was sold on the FIRST introduction of it LAST year.

I think Steve could-have gotten-away with never MENTIONING the "secret" features and just waiting until the announcement of it to reveal the additional features. But - he DID build the anticipation, didn't he?

Chuckit · Jun 11, 2007, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by tkmd

definitely - looks like Wall Street was unimpressed too- APPL fell almost $4.50/ share !!!!

Just from looking at the ones I'm tracking, it looks like tech stocks in general are doing shitty today. Google's down about as much, Amazon's down more than half as much, Microsoft is basically even but down slightly.

Kerrigan · Jun 11, 2007, 07:26 PM

The translucent menubar is a bit odd. I wonder if the translucency can be turned off for graphic designers.

The 3D dock is interesting.

I mean everything looks nice, but its obvious that a huge portion of Apple's R&D budget is going into iTunes, because for the last few years, OSX has gradually become iTunes writ large. I can't say I'm very excited about that.

I would gladly use it over Vista, but honestly I am getting sick of translucency and gloss. I had all of that from the very start with 10.0 public beta. I don't want a big translucent menubar as it just reminds me how dated this aesthetic style is.

kman42 · Jun 11, 2007, 07:43 PM

Best feature is the ability to have all my macs show up in the finder and have .mac keep track of them. Very cool to be be able to access, search, and even control all my macs from any of them. Nifty.

TheoCryst · Jun 11, 2007, 08:17 PM

Problem with the translucent menu bar: what happens when you have a black desktop? Will the text become unreadable?