[voodoo]

Concerning development in France these days regarding internet piracy 'protection'.

The French government has a plan for cutting music and film piracy on the Internet: cut off the pirates’ Internet access.

Macworld: News: French gov't plans to disconnect content pirates

Simply put, an institution will monitor internet access and if it deems you a pirate, your internet connection will be cut and you will be blacklisted by ISPs.

Neat!

In their defense, the French government frowns upon DRM.

Even so, I think ISPs being allowed to cut your internet and blacklist you at their whim or the whim of any organized body for alledged infraction of intellectual property (aka piracy) is draconian and quite frankly absurd..

This will then lead to 128-bit encrypted p2p, which will render this whole ISP blocking irrelevant. I suppose losing one's internet is better than going to jail, but this frees the copyright holders to prove guilt.

Assumption of guilt is enough and whammo... you're cut from teh series of tubes.

(since this is neither a left vs right or religious, I don't think it should be in the pol lounge because this is really music/TV industry news)

V

[stevesnj]

If your willfully seeding pirated music or movie content I say this is a good idea to blacklist the offender. I didn't read the linked article this is just my opinion based on this post.

[amazing]

Simplified to its basics, "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité" means that 'les aristos' get their necks cut off. So, if you become an 'aristo' of the file-sharing world, you get what is culturally coming to you.

Also, France has never had a 'presumption of innocence.' When the French watched too many American TV cop show reruns, there was a point when they'd go up to a gendarme who was arresting someone, and ask why the gendarme wasn't reading the suspect his Miranda rights. France doesn't have any such thing: If you're arrested, it's a given that they had enough evidence to arrest you, and it's up to you to prove you didn't do it. That's why Chirac is in trouble right now.

The other cultural influence operating in France is "more benefits for the proletariat." Which means that the proletariat feels entitled to "panes et circensem." Namely, their cake and their right to eat it too, free of charge. Shouldn't have to work for anything, right? Or, at least, shouldn't have to work too hard...

Les petits bourgeois will cut off the heads of anyone who rises too far above or falls too far below the norm. Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité.

[Cold Warrior]

shocking for a Western country

Basically legalizing wholesale, Big Brother-style traffic snooping. People are crazy if they think the government won't backdoor this thing -- let alone foreign governments itching for an economic espionage coup.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by amazing 

Also, France has never had a 'presumption of innocence.'

Nonsense.

Présomption d'innocence - Wikipédia

« Article 11. Toute personne accusée d'un acte délictueux est présumée innocente jusqu'à ce que sa culpabilité ait été légalement établie au cours d'un procès public où toutes les garanties nécessaires à sa défense lui auront été assurées. »

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Nonsense.

Indeed. French law, based in parts still on the Napoleonic Code, is very clear on the assumption of innocence:

The French Revolution's Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen had declared that suspects were presumed to be innocent until they had been declared to be guilty by a court of law. A concern of Bonaparte's was the possibility of arbitrary arrest, or excessive remand (imprisonment prior to a trial). Bonaparte remarked that care should be taken to preserve personal freedoms especially when the case was before the Imperial Court: "these courts would have a great strength, they should be prohibited from abusing this situation against weak citizen without connections."

[Doofy]

You missed this bit Mas:

The possibility for justice to endorse lengthy remand periods was one reason why the Napoleonic Code was criticized for de facto presumption of guilt, particularly in common law countries.

Assumption of innocence, sure, but you're going to be languishing innocently in a remand jail for a year while you prove how innocent you are.

[Mastrap]

We - the western world including the UK- keep people (suspects) in jail routinely while we establish their guilt or innocence.

[ghporter]

Unless there is a solid, guaranteed unbiased route to protest being cut off and blacklisted, this is doomed to failure-through the appearance of abuse. There must be a really trustable way for a person to say "hey, I was sharing my own GPLd software, not some copyrighted music! Prove in open court that I was a pirate, or hook me back up and compensate me for lost time, lost reputation, and what I've had to pay for more Internet access." Unless it's completely trustworthy, no appeals process will work. Does anyone think that the French government can come up with something like that?

[amazing]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Nonsense.

Présomption d'innocence - Wikipédia

« Article 11. Toute personne accusée d'un acte délictueux est présumée innocente jusqu'à ce que sa culpabilité ait été légalement établie au cours d'un procès public où toutes les garanties nécessaires à sa défense lui auront été assurées. »

oops, you're right. Guess I was thinking of "flagrant délit," e.g. like a street arrest where you're caught in the act.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Unless there is a solid, guaranteed unbiased route to protest being cut off and blacklisted, this is doomed to failure-through the appearance of abuse. There must be a really trustable way for a person to say "hey, I was sharing my own GPLd software, not some copyrighted music! Prove in open court that I was a pirate, or hook me back up and compensate me for lost time, lost reputation, and what I've had to pay for more Internet access." Unless it's completely trustworthy, no appeals process will work. Does anyone think that the French government can come up with something like that?

Why ? Because life is supposed to be fair ?

We all know that's not the case, especially on teh intarwebs.
You don't even have to leave 'NN to experience that

-t

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Why ? Because life is supposed to be fair ?

We all know that's not the case, especially on teh intarwebs.
You don't even have to leave 'NN to experience that

-t

profound thoughts

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

profound thoughts

No, just pointing out the irony in his statement, as compared to some things going on here...

-t

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

No, just pointing out the irony in his statement, as compared to some things going on here...

-t

No, just looks like you taking a pissing contest from one old thread and injecting it into another where you try to take a swing at another member by making a snide remark at his post.

Very transparent.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

No, just looks like you taking a pissing contest from one old thread and injecting it into another where you try to take a swing at another member by making a snide remark at his post.

Very transparent.

Yeah, whatever.

He said it will fail because of a lack of appeals process. I disagree.

I said that even IF there is a lack of appeals process, people will still be around and use it. Proof: 'NN.

-t

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

If your willfully seeding pirated music or movie content I say this is a good idea to blacklist the offender.

Yeah, it's the digital equivalent of cutting off a thief's hand. Who doesn't think that's the civilized thing to do?

[PaperNotes]

I'm really divided over piracy now. On one hand intellectual and artist's rights should be respected to the nth degree and on the other hand criminalizing or oppressing someone for downloading some digital 1010100010101110100011000 junk that they will delete one day anyway is totalitarian, fascist and pig-like. Destroying someone's life to save a hypothetical million dollars or two is as disgusting as killing someone for their ATM number.

If everyone in the entertainment industry didn't fritter their money away on daily lines of coke and ten ton gas guzzling SUVs would they still complain?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

No, just looks like you taking a pissing contest from one old thread and injecting it into another where you try to take a swing at another member by making a snide remark at his post.

Very transparent.

Regardless of what you think he was doing, he had a valid point.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Why ? Because life is supposed to be fair ?

We all know that's not the case, especially on teh intarwebs.
You don't even have to leave 'NN to experience that

-t

Laws are supposed to be fair. This particular law makes an assumption, and logic requires that such assumptions must be tested and proven before they're accepted. So yes, in this case life is supposed to be fair.

The knock against MacNN isn't appreciated. We do our best, in spite of having to deal with a number of users who act like they never learned the manners that society expects of kindergarten students.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

The knock against MacNN isn't appreciated. We do our best, in spite of having to deal with a number of users who act like they never learned the manners that society expects of kindergarten students.

Well I believe MOST of you do your best anyhow gh. And that wasn't a knock on you.

I've seen certain mods act just as bad or worse than said users you are referring to. So while your post above is valid, in that there are moderators that take pride in their job they were given, I think turtle's was too because there has been some "guilty till proven innocent" incidents on NN. And even after innocence was proven, no reparations were made.

Not that NN has anything to do with France... I think turtle is just frustrated.

Maybe we should just get back on topic.

[ghporter]

Back on topic is a good thing, and I shouldn't have gone in the off-topic direction myself.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Laws are supposed to be fair. This particular law makes an assumption, and logic requires that such assumptions must be tested and proven before they're accepted. So yes, in this case life is supposed to be fair.

This is an romantic idea of democracy and life.

Lawmakers will make laws that they perceive as necessary to safeguard their country and ensure the country can prosper.

Fair or not, doesn't matter.
Fairness is on the bottom of the list of important considerations.

And may I add, without wanting to stab anyone here:
Don't you mods and admins do what you think is best ? Sometimes that has nothing to do with (perceived) fairness.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

The knock against MacNN isn't appreciated. We do our best, in spite of having to deal with a number of users who act like they never learned the manners that society expects of kindergarten students.

Well, my point exactly. This is EXACTLY how the French government thinks.

All they do is do their best, in spite of having to deal with a number of users (copyright violators) who act like they never learned the manners that society expects of kindergarten students.

Is this too obvious to be noticed ?

-t

[ghporter]

We try to be as fair as possible. Not terribly easy sometimes, since there are numerous, conflicting "right answers" to work with.

I spent almost a quarter century serving to make sure that the ideal of democracy was still possible. So maybe I'm a romantic...

I hold that it's possible to both help maintain a fair playing field and treat people like adults. I don't think that France as a republic can do this, in part because of their history. I had hoped that my post reflected this with my last sentence. Another part of the reason I don't think they can do it is that the United States is much less paternalistic than any European country and we can't manage to treat adults like adults much of the time. With the social responsibility of most European governments as heavy as it is, I see more parental-like actions, not less, in their future. Someday, people in Europe will grow up never having to make an adult decision for themselves. This is bad for everyone.

[pooka]

I'm so pissed off right now I can barely think. Sorry... just got back from watching the Mist. Terrible flick.

Anyway, Glenn and I go way back. By "way back" I mean a few weeks ago when he jumped my ass. Yeah, seems I was giving another poster some **** about his mom and our alleged (deviant) sexual relationship. At the time, I was a little irritated. I mean, for reals, the dude was a douche. He deserved every demeaning comment I threw his way. But for the sake of the kids on the forums, gh asked me nicely to stop. Actually, he kinda asked me to stop being a ****-head and act my age. Mildly annoying, but in the end, it's a thankless job and someone has to do it. No hard feelings and life has gone on.

But just so we're clear, I'm not sorry and that guy did seem kinda dumb.

Back OT:

I live in Louisiana. Our "legal code" is based on something we got from the French. Nuff said.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by pooka 

But just so we're clear, I'm not sorry and that guy did seem kinda dumb.

Yes, he was a twit/jerk/idiot, but wording is important here. Glad you saw that it was a job, not an attack.

Originally Posted by pooka 

I live in Louisiana. Our "legal code" is based on something we got from the French. Nuff said.

I have friends from South Louisiana, and having lived in southern Mississippi for ten or so years, I spent a lot of time there. The Napoleonic Code (for reference, see "Streetcar Named Desire") is...interesting.

[Kevin]

I am thinking about making a musicial.
"A Sesame Street Called Desire"

Maybe even do a Ice Capades version. :o OoOoooo