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Human Shields in Iraq
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CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Jan 22, 2003, 01:12 PM
 
First of all- I have no problem with people having a different opinion and opposing war with Iraq. That's their business and right to disagree. But going over to Iraq and personally injecting one's self into the conflict and worse- purposely trying to stand in the way of a military target crosses a line that goes WAY beyond stupidity.

Legitimate protest is one thing- suicidal idiocy is another. Saddam's useful idiots in this case I think have greatly overestimated the level of sympathy many people will have for them. Me personally, it's not because I really want to see these people die- it's just that when some moron stands in front of a bomb and is too stupid to realize that's NOT a very good way to express a disagreement, sane people cannot reserve all that much sympathy for them when they get killed.


I can't speak for other countries, but as for the US, we should have a simple policy concerning Saddam's useful idiots who want to cross the line and act as shields:

You are free to go over to Iraq and do your human shield thing- and you are also free to REMAIN there. You will be considered to have aided an enemy military power and not be allowed back into the United States. Not as a whole living human being and not as an exploded jumble of body parts. Let your new host Saddam do what he will with your living being or your dead body.


If Saddam and his regime is so worthy of defending, the useful idiots should be happy to do what Iraqi citizens have to do- STAY THERE with him. Let's see how open Saddam is to protest against himself on his own soil.
     
DBursey
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Jan 22, 2003, 01:13 PM
 
So ... has Sean Penn strapped himself to a SCUD launcher yet?
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Jan 22, 2003, 01:17 PM
 
They are only aiding the enemy if the US military changes its targetting. I doubt they will. If you stand near a military target in a time of war, the military is not obligated to go out of their way not to hit you.

If these people are dumb enough to want to become pink mist, that is their concern.
     
ink
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Jan 22, 2003, 01:19 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
They are only aiding the enemy if the US military changes its targetting. I doubt they will. If you stand near a military target in a time of war, the military is not obligated to go out of their way not to hit you.

If these people are dumb enough to want to become pink mist, that is their concern.
They are only standing with civilians, so unless we target civilian areas...

I think that is what they are ensuring above all else.
     
MacGorilla
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Jan 22, 2003, 01:24 PM
 
Maybe we export some human shields to Iraq. Britney Separs, 'Nsync, etc. Oh and Charleton Heston. Maybe Barbara Streisand.
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SimeyTheLimey
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Jan 22, 2003, 01:24 PM
 
Originally posted by ink:
They are only standing with civilians, so unless we target civilian areas...

I think that is what they are ensuring above all else.
Well then that's fine. We aren't going to target civilian areas deliberately.

The only danger is that Saddam does have a track record of colocating civilian and military targets in order to try to take advantage of the Geneva Convention. In that situation, the laws of war allow the target to be struck although any civilian casualties must always be incidental to the military objective. But otherwise, no, the US is not going to deliberately bomb civilians.

I suppose if these people want to delude themselves into thinking that it would be their presence that would dissuade the US, that's their perogative. But in reality, the US does try to abide by the laws of land warfare. Any soldier will tell you how seriously those laws are taken.
     
Atef's Carcase
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Jan 22, 2003, 01:27 PM
 
They're basically defending Saddam. It's one thing to protest and cry for peace. It's quite another to go to a foreign country and offer your body and life in defense of a murderous tyrant.

Misguided fools.

hey, maybe Schr�der will catch the next plane to Baghdad with these losers! Fits his policies just right.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Jan 22, 2003, 01:31 PM
 
Originally posted by Atef's Carcase:
They're basically defending Saddam. It's one thing to protest and cry for peace. It's quite another to go to a foreign country and offer your body and life in defense of a murderous tyrant.
They do need to be careful. There is a line where what they are doing could be construed as treason. They might want to consult with a lawyer about the case of Tokyo Rose, for example. You don't actually have to take up arms. On the other hand, Hanoi Jane shows that the probability of prosecution is low.

Personally, I'd just ignore them.
     
moowriece
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Jan 22, 2003, 02:02 PM
 
I fully support these very brave people!!

They have the guts to say no the American war mongering and protect the innocent Iraqi people at civilian locations. Although it is very dangerous, people are volunteering for this job. That says a lot how we Europeans feel about this terrible war. There will be a very big divide between Americans and Europeans on this. I hope more Americans don't get tricked by the oil driven George Bush and let the UN resolve the Iraqi issue peacefully.
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE  (op)
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Jan 22, 2003, 05:36 PM
 
Originally posted by moowriece:
I fully support these very brave people!!
Brave! *chuckle*

Brave would have been going over to protect Iraqis from Saddam, and having the nuts to tell Saddam so!

Brave would have been going over to Kuwait in 1991 and protecting Kuwaiti citizens from invasion and pillage by Saddam's forces then. Surely Saddam wouldn't have blown right through any 'human shields' to get at Kuwait? Right?

Brave would have been forming a human shield around Kurdish villages before they were gassed.

Brave would have been forming a human shield around Israel during the gulf war and personally deflecting Saddam's scud attacks.

I'll tell you what, I�d tip my hat to anyone with the brass nads to have done any of the above. I'd say they were if anything, consistant.

These people on the other hand won�t dare take on Saddam. They go over there at the man's mercy; doing his bidding for him, unwittingly or not. None of them will dare to call him on anything he�s done while standing on his soil, being used in his cause.

That�s not brave, it's just people allowing themselves to be a dictator's useful idiots.
     
Kitschy
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Jan 22, 2003, 06:00 PM
 
Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Brave! *chuckle*

Brave would have been going over to protect Iraqis from Saddam, and having the nuts to tell Saddam so!

Brave would have been going over to Kuwait in 1991 and protecting Kuwaiti citizens from invasion and pillage by Saddam's forces then. Surely Saddam wouldn't have blown right through any 'human shields' to get at Kuwait? Right?

Brave would have been forming a human shield around Kurdish villages before they were gassed.

Brave would have been forming a human shield around Israel during the gulf war and personally deflecting Saddam's scud attacks.

I'll tell you what, I�d tip my hat to anyone with the brass nads to have done any of the above. I'd say they were if anything, consistant.

These people on the other hand won�t dare take on Saddam. They go over there at the man's mercy; doing his bidding for him, unwittingly or not. None of them will dare to call him on anything he�s done while standing on his soil, being used in his cause.

That�s not brave, it's just people allowing themselves to be a dictator's useful idiots.
Well said.
     
ThinkInsane
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Jan 22, 2003, 07:00 PM
 
Originally posted by moowriece:
I fully support these very brave people!!
They have the guts to say no the American war mongering and protect the innocent Iraqi people at civilian locations. Although it is very dangerous, people are volunteering for this job. That says a lot how we Europeans feel about this terrible war. There will be a very big divide between Americans and Europeans on this. I hope more Americans don't get tricked by the oil driven George Bush and let the UN resolve the Iraqi issue peacefully.
This grows tiresome. Feel free to join them. Seriously, I will buy your ticket. Maybe when you get to see what it is like IN Iraq, you'll change your mind. Maybe not. Maybe your mind will be all over the sidewalk. Who knows?

As for the UN resolving the issue peacefully, well, Saddam has been laughing at the UN for how many years? How long ago did he expel the weapons inspectors. It wasn't until Bush threatened to start shooting Tomahawks that he decided that he would be a little more compliant.
p:
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olePigeon
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Jan 22, 2003, 07:17 PM
 
This reminds me of South Park.

Operation: Human Shield
Operation: Get Behind the Darkies
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Millennium
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Jan 22, 2003, 07:49 PM
 
Ah, the infamous "human shield" tactic.

Technically, this can be considered treason. May as well adjudicate it as such. Unless, of course, these people are renouncing their US citizenship beforehand, which I very much doubt they are doing. I'm not sure if a noncitizen can actually be charged with treason.

But regardless, someone who volunteers to become a human shield just got their name taken off the "noncombatant" list. Human shields are a defensive weapon, and voluntarily becoming a part of that weapon makes you a combatant. I have no problem with blowing volunteers away if it means Saddam will be taken out in the same strike.

On the other hand, it's also possible to have involuntary human shields. Let's say, for example, that Saddam starts comandeering orphanages to sleep in at night, without letting anyone leave. This is another matter entirely from people who have volunteered to go and fight from the enemy.
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Jansar
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Jan 22, 2003, 07:54 PM
 
Originally posted by olePigeon:
This reminds me of South Park.

Operation: Human Shield
Operation: Get Behind the Darkies
Yes! It did remind me of that.

On a second note, let me try to provide the people who don't want war against Iraq with a scenario.

First of all, this is not a war against Iraq, it's a war against Saddam Hussein. Occasionally, Saddam will take his own soldiers, hang them by their hair on a dipper device that dips them (still alive) into a vat of acid. They are dipped continuously until only bones are left. Meanwhile, Saddam watches this, laughing and smoking cigars.

That's the kind of guy we're dealing with. The US is doing a good thing by removing all of these terrorists. The only problem is, terrorists like the Russian Mafia have a network so large that they can't really all be eliminated.
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thunderous_funker
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Jan 22, 2003, 07:58 PM
 
I think they are trying to draw attention to the plight of Iraqi civilians.

Everyone talks about this war like it's just a game of Risk and so many little plastic army-pyramids.

It's easy to forget that the people who will mostly likely suffer the worst from war are not the people that deserve it.

They are showing solidarity with the Iraqi civilians and hoping that gesture makes military planners infinitely more cautious. It also raises public pressure back home for military planners to show extreme caution.

They're not out to save Saddam, they're out to make the statement that our fantasies about "punishing" Saddam are more realistically going to be devastating on innocent people.

Just another way of jump starting the dialouge about alternative means of ousting the Ba'ath party without a US military coup. I, for one, think that raising those questions is of utmost importance.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Captain Obvious
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Jan 22, 2003, 08:40 PM
 
I am all for blowing these people up. So long as they are there by choice they are helping humanity by removing themselves from the gene pool. Very Darwinian.

But I dont see how this helps draw attention to the people of Iraq's plight. They are not exactly in an upwardly mobile position. Its their military those chooses to stick rocket launchers in their back yards and make their homes targets. They don't get a vote in the matter nor can they move to another location very easily.

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thunderous_funker
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Jan 22, 2003, 09:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
[BBut I dont see how this helps draw attention to the people of Iraq's plight. They are not exactly in an upwardly mobile position. Its their military those chooses to stick rocket launchers in their back yards and make their homes targets. They don't get a vote in the matter nor can they move to another location very easily. [/B]
Which is precisely the point that perhaps an invasion isn't the best way for Iraq to get rid of the Ba'ath party.

Devastation to the civilian population and infrastructure isn't exactly the best opening act for "nation building" in an already hostile environment.

All the volunteers are trying to do is effect a pause in the action until more people get involved in talking about our best plans for helping Iraq right itself.

Once the shooting starts, they had better get the hell out of the way or they'll simply be endangering US forces who will have to try and be more careful (to avoid civilians, Iraqi and other) than the Iraqi forces. Once the war starts, I don't think standing on the battlefied does any good at all. In fact, it makes things worse.

I had written a longer and more eloquent version of this post, but it didn't post because the damn site keeps giving me database errors on almost every 3rd click. I know this site is a "labor of love" for the most part, but the stability issues are making it nearly impossible to participate.
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die." -- Hunter S. Thompson
     
Face Ache
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Jan 22, 2003, 09:23 PM
 
I wish the pro-war people would find a reason for war and stick to it. If this is about "liberating oppressed people" then a lot of other countries will be in trouble too. And Texas.

As for human shields, may I suggest these people chain themselves to US allied troops. They're usually the first to get bombed by the US in any war.

Save the Canadians!
     
rampant
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Jan 22, 2003, 09:23 PM
 
Time to begin operation "hide behind the darkies".
     
rambo47
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Jan 22, 2003, 09:30 PM
 
Dunno, but this seems like a golden opportunity for the attack helicopter crews to get in a little live fire target practice. Or maybe the artillery spotters: "Red Legs, Red Legs. Fire mission, fire mission. Troops in the open, suggest willie-pete, will adjust, over...."
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jan 25, 2003, 08:01 PM
 
If it's perfectly sane to you that thousands of American troops will be fighting and killing iraqi's (most of whom will be civilians...not on poupose, just a side effect ..... of course they are expendable), with no justification, or threat from the iriqi people or government, Why is it so insane that there are people going there trying to literally 'fight for peace' ? they dont have guns or amunition or anything ? they arent even defending Saddam Hussein. Alll they are doing is opposing an unjuctified war inorder to save thousands of innocent lives.

And regardless what justification you find for our armed forces going there to invade, may it be oil, regime change or if they are a viable threat, you cannot deny that, majority of the world's citizens oppose this war, majority of Americans oppose this war (especially without any justification), and well.... if democracy is what we are fighting for..... this isnt really setting a good example.
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jan 25, 2003, 08:10 PM
 
Originally posted by Face Ache:
I wish the pro-war people would find a reason for war and stick to it. If this is about "liberating oppressed people" then a lot of other countries will be in trouble too. And Texas.

As for human shields, may I suggest these people chain themselves to US allied troops. They're usually the first to get bombed by the US in any war.

Save the Canadians!
lol. very true.... but let me let u in on a little secret ..... an American life is worth 4 canadian or 20 korean or 50 chineeses or 85 afghans. get with the program
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jan 25, 2003, 10:08 PM
 
Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Brave! *chuckle*

Brave would have been going over to protect Iraqis from Saddam, and having the nuts to tell Saddam so!

Brave would have been going over to Kuwait in 1991 and protecting Kuwaiti citizens from invasion and pillage by Saddam's forces then. Surely Saddam wouldn't have blown right through any 'human shields' to get at Kuwait? Right?

Brave would have been forming a human shield around Kurdish villages before they were gassed.

Brave would have been forming a human shield around Israel during the gulf war and personally deflecting Saddam's scud attacks.

I'll tell you what, I�d tip my hat to anyone with the brass nads to have done any of the above. I'd say they were if anything, consistant.

These people on the other hand won�t dare take on Saddam. They go over there at the man's mercy; doing his bidding for him, unwittingly or not. None of them will dare to call him on anything he�s done while standing on his soil, being used in his cause.

That�s not brave, it's just people allowing themselves to be a dictator's useful idiots.
When Iraqis kill Iraqis it's blood on their hands. When Americans and Brits kill Iraqis , it's blood on our hands.
     
Captain Obvious
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Jan 25, 2003, 10:11 PM
 
Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:


And regardless what justification you find for our armed forces going there to invade, may it be oil, regime change or if they are a viable threat, you cannot deny that, majority of the world's citizens oppose this war, majority of Americans oppose this war (especially without any justification),
Yes, but the world's citizens will not the ones sending troops.
And no, the majority or Americans support the war (50.1% and above being an actual majority) and the overwhelming majority support it with UN support (80%+)

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finboy
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Jan 25, 2003, 10:29 PM
 
Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
This grows tiresome.
I agree that they're pretty brave. Or stupid.

The one's that understand what they're doing are being pretty brave to stand up for their convictions, even though they're painfully misinformed.

I still think we should lock them up when they get back. Fat chance, though, as Simey said, with the Hanoi Jane example.
     
GoldenHammer
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Jan 25, 2003, 11:26 PM
 
It must be clear for two points:

1. Who starts the attack? Who makes the KILL?
2. There is nothing wrong for the people to protect the properties of his own country by all means.

It makes sense when these points are clear.



Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
First of all- I have no problem with people having a different opinion and opposing war with Iraq. That's their business and right to disagree. But going over to Iraq and personally injecting one's self into the conflict and worse- purposely trying to stand in the way of a military target crosses a line that goes WAY beyond stupidity.

Legitimate protest is one thing- suicidal idiocy is another. Saddam's useful idiots in this case I think have greatly overestimated the level of sympathy many people will have for them. Me personally, it's not because I really want to see these people die- it's just that when some moron stands in front of a bomb and is too stupid to realize that's NOT a very good way to express a disagreement, sane people cannot reserve all that much sympathy for them when they get killed.


I can't speak for other countries, but as for the US, we should have a simple policy concerning Saddam's useful idiots who want to cross the line and act as shields:

You are free to go over to Iraq and do your human shield thing- and you are also free to REMAIN there. You will be considered to have aided an enemy military power and not be allowed back into the United States. Not as a whole living human being and not as an exploded jumble of body parts. Let your new host Saddam do what he will with your living being or your dead body.


If Saddam and his regime is so worthy of defending, the useful idiots should be happy to do what Iraqi citizens have to do- STAY THERE with him. Let's see how open Saddam is to protest against himself on his own soil.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Jan 26, 2003, 12:13 AM
 
Originally posted by GoldenHammer:
It must be clear for two points:

1. Who starts the attack? Who makes the KILL?
2. There is nothing wrong for the people to protect the properties of his own country by all means.

It makes sense when these points are clear.

I'd pay money to be able to personally bomb those American traitors.

Seriously.
     
Face Ache
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Jan 26, 2003, 12:18 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I'd pay money to be able to personally bomb those American traitors.
American traitors?
     
V
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Jan 26, 2003, 12:29 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I'd pay money to be able to personally bomb those American traitors.

Seriously.

And the pro-choice, the non-Christian etc...

Some french or german with that?
     
teszeract
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Jan 26, 2003, 01:02 AM
 
Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I'd pay money to be able to personally bomb those American traitors.

Seriously.
Murderer.
     
GoldenHammer
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Jan 26, 2003, 01:04 AM
 
We should always keep our eyes and mind open.

IT IS THE ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITIES HERE - WHO MAKES THE DECISION? WHO STARTS THE WAR? AND WHO MAKES THE KILL?

These are the basic stand points everyone MUST BE CLEAR prior to any further argument.


Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I'd pay money to be able to personally bomb those American traitors.

Seriously.
     
undotwa
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Jan 26, 2003, 06:50 AM
 
Just one word: idiots.

They will be either killed, because they are trying to interrupt a military task or arrested, then executed for treason.

I don't question George Bush's motives (well, at least I like to think he has good intentions), I just question his abilility to do a good job. Remember, God brings good out of evil... I wouldn't of been alive if it wasn't for the second world war... I think you can call that bringing good out of evil (I hope).
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