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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > "Just hazing", huh?

"Just hazing", huh?
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Millennium
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Jul 15, 2004, 04:34 PM
 
I know we have a few people here who still insist that the ritualized torture that went on in Abu Ghraib was somehow "just hazing".

What, then, do you say to this? It seems that much worse than what we've seen may have been committed, including child rape among other things. Is that "just hazing" too?

I still believe that we were dealing with a few crazies, and that this went no higher than the direct command of the prison, if it even got that high. But that does not make what happened any more acceptable. Throw the book at the monsters who did this. There is no excuse for either the previous incidents or the ones coming to light now.
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
dcolton
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Jul 15, 2004, 04:56 PM
 
I have heard about this and yes, it is absolutely sickening that ANY individual would abuse a child like this.

I have heard the same story, but it alleges that Iraqi nationals were guilty of the rape, not US soldiers. This does not excuse it in any way, shape, or form whether the guilty party is Iraqi or American - so don't say that I am being apologetic. It is an outrage!
     
PacHead
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Jul 15, 2004, 05:01 PM
 
I went to that link, and even downloaded realplayer so I could watch the RM video.

Where is the juicy stuff though ? It said it started at 1:30:00 into the video. There's just some people talking on some stage.

So far all of the pictures I have seen have been no big deal at all. I have never claimed that nothing bad has not happened, I have just not seen any evidence of this yet. And I don't take some ACLU people's word for it, just because they say it.

I would like to see a video. And if it is indeed true, I will condemn it. I just want to see it with my own eyes. I don't trust those people.
     
BlackGriffen
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Jul 15, 2004, 05:14 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
I went to that link, and even downloaded realplayer so I could watch the RM video.

Where is the juicy stuff though ? It said it started at 1:30:00 into the video. There's just some people talking on some stage.

So far all of the pictures I have seen have been no big deal at all. I have never claimed that nothing bad has not happened, I have just not seen any evidence of this yet. And I don't take some ACLU people's word for it, just because they say it.

I would like to see a video. And if it is indeed true, I will condemn it. I just want to see it with my own eyes. I don't trust those people.
You realize, I hope, that a video of the event would be illegal to distribute because it would be considered child pornography, don't you? I hope you realize the implications for your reputation of seeking to see a video of a little boy getting raped....

BlackGriffen

Edit: cooling down my remarks some.
( Last edited by BlackGriffen; Jul 15, 2004 at 05:19 PM. )
     
PacHead
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Jul 15, 2004, 05:22 PM
 
Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
You realize, I hope, that a video of the event would be illegal to distribute because it would be considered child pornography, don't you?

fcking pedo. (Admit it, you were asking for it )

BlackGriffen
Millennium mentioned child rape and other things. What about the other things. Is there no video for that either ? I haven't seen anything yet. When I do, I will condemn it, if it is indeed bad.

And Dcolton mentioned something about the rapes being commited by Iraqis. How does this fit in with the "USA is evil" crowd ?
     
Krusty
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Jul 15, 2004, 06:38 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
I went to that link, and even downloaded realplayer so I could watch the RM video.

Where is the juicy stuff though ? It said it started at 1:30:00 into the video. There's just some people talking on some stage.

So far all of the pictures I have seen have been no big deal at all. I have never claimed that nothing bad has not happened, I have just not seen any evidence of this yet. And I don't take some ACLU people's word for it, just because they say it.

I would like to see a video. And if it is indeed true, I will condemn it. I just want to see it with my own eyes. I don't trust those people.
Well, everyone from the news media, to the Army itself, to the members of congress (who saw more evidence than we have) collectively stated -- since nearly the beginning -- that there is a lot more and a lot worse than we've seen so far. All that Hersh does in the video is give some specific detail about what has already been admitted a long time ago. We may never see all of the evidence as it would be considered child pornography. It will also be highly unlikely that people at the top of the Administration will ever admit to specifics about what went on. Therefore, you are simply never going to believe that these things happened because they won't meet you evidentiary requirements.
MSNBC article from waaayy back on May 7th. "Graham" is right wing Republican Senator Lindsay Graham of SC
Graham, a veteran of the House Judiciary Clinton impeachment hearings in 1998, had his sound bites honed to a sharp, quotable edge: �I want to prepare the public. The worst is yet to come in terms of disturbing events.�
A few minutes later, Graham told a press conference, �We�re talking about rape and murder here, we�re not just talking abut giving people a humiliating experience, we�re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.�
     
PacHead
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Jul 15, 2004, 06:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Krusty:
Well, everyone from the news media, to the Army itself, to the members of congress (who saw more evidence than we have) collectively stated -- since nearly the beginning -- that there is a lot more and a lot worse than we've seen so far. All that Hersh does in the video is give some specific detail about what has already been admitted a long time ago. We may never see all of the evidence as it would be considered child pornography. It will also be highly unlikely that people at the top of the Administration will ever admit to specifics about what went on. Therefore, you are simply never going to believe that these things happened because they won't meet you evidentiary requirements.
MSNBC article from waaayy back on May 7th. "Graham" is right wing Republican Senator Lindsay Graham of SC
Well, considering all of the hooplah and world wide outrage caused by the few ridiculously mild pictures that have been released so far, I don't think I can be faulted for taking this new evidence with a grain of salt.

So I suppose, it's legal for members of congress to watch childporn ? Well, show me the murder videos then. The public can handle it. We see muslim beheading videos all the time. And with sites like ogrish, those sorts of videos are no big deal. And you are correct, I will not believe it, until I see it.
     
Lerkfish
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Jul 15, 2004, 10:00 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
Well, considering all of the hooplah and world wide outrage caused by the few ridiculously mild pictures that have been released so far, I don't think I can be faulted for taking this new evidence with a grain of salt.

So I suppose, it's legal for members of congress to watch childporn ? Well, show me the murder videos then. The public can handle it. We see muslim beheading videos all the time. And with sites like ogrish, those sorts of videos are no big deal. And you are correct, I will not believe it, until I see it.
De Nile is a very big river in Egypt.
     
macvillage.net
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Jul 15, 2004, 10:58 PM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
I know we have a few people here who still insist that the ritualized torture that went on in Abu Ghraib was somehow "just hazing".

What, then, do you say to this? It seems that much worse than what we've seen may have been committed, including child rape among other things. Is that "just hazing" too?

I still believe that we were dealing with a few crazies, and that this went no higher than the direct command of the prison, if it even got that high. But that does not make what happened any more acceptable. Throw the book at the monsters who did this. There is no excuse for either the previous incidents or the ones coming to light now.
Good points.

Though the abuse alligations from several human rights groups did go to the mainstream press months earlier, and they did ask the president to look into the matter.... so there's no question they were alerted months earlier this was taking place... the question I have is why they ignored everything until pictures were leaked.


Though as an American, I'm most offended by the fact Congress spent 95% of it's time investigating how pictures leaked, rather than who wsa involved, and why it happened. I'd personally hope the whistle blowers get honored by congress for standing up. After all... we made this huge stink about business corruption and whistle blowers. If we don't encourage people who witness stuff like this to speak out... things will just slide under the radar.


If people think they can represent America like this... they should get some serious jail time.. and hopefully recieve some good hazing themselves. Perhaps leave them to the Iraqi's to judge. They committed crimes against Iraqi's. We try foreigners who commit crimes in America against Americans. Let them get their justice... rather than let terrorists justify themselves as seeking justice.

Makes a mockery of the 99% of our military just doing ther job.
     
yakkiebah
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Jul 16, 2004, 05:57 AM
 
Originally posted by macvillage.net:
Perhaps leave them to the Iraqi's to judge. They committed crimes against Iraqi's. We try foreigners who commit crimes in America against Americans. Let them get their justice... rather than let terrorists justify themselves as seeking justice.
     
Sven G
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Jul 16, 2004, 10:15 AM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
I still believe that we were dealing with a few crazies, and that this went no higher than the direct command of the prison, if it even got that high. But that does not make what happened any more acceptable. Throw the book at the monsters who did this. There is no excuse for either the previous incidents or the ones coming to light now.
Sadly, it is just an unavoidable consequence of the madness of war, at all levels: expect to see an escalation in barbarism in the forthcoming years, if nothing positive happens on the part of the "general" populace.

All this could have been avoided, if the "revolutions" of the past hadn't degenerated into their contrary, due to insufficiently rooted ideals - i.e., "new" status quos, to be achieved at any cost, without any consideration towards human dignity, and so on...

The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
     
Lerkfish
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Jul 16, 2004, 11:30 AM
 
Originally posted by Millennium:
I still believe that we were dealing with a few crazies, and that this went no higher than the direct command of the prison, if it even got that high. But that does not make what happened any more acceptable. Throw the book at the monsters who did this. There is no excuse for either the previous incidents or the ones coming to light now.
well said, I would only disagree on the "few crazies" part. There are an awful lot of people that did some horrible things, videotaped it, put it on CDs, and weren't prevented from being "crazy" by witnessing CIA and civilian contractors whose job it was to interrogate the prisoners.
Think for a moment: if it was YOUR job to interrogate prisoners, and you DIDN"T want the guards to sodomize them before your chance to ask questions, wouldn't you do something to complain about or prevent the procedure? They were taking pictures, videos. Do you REALLY think the CIA was clueless as to what was going on?
I'm sorry, that part of it stretches credulity to the breaking point, for me.
     
DeathToWindows
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Jul 18, 2004, 07:20 PM
 
Ok, what was done at abu Ghraib was simply wrong - I mean, prisoner abuse is wrong. Plain and simple. It's a war crime. Therefore, we should try the perps as war criminals; and don't do it in a US court, use an international court. Go for full accountability here; if a person abused, permitted abuse or was merely aware of abuse and yet did nothing, they must be held accountable.

This means, go from the lowest grunt with a DigiCam to the highest-ranking brass and kick them in the arse!

While we're at it, consideing that the US, with bush as C in C, is responsible for thousands of civilian casualties, try those responsible for war crimes. This means you, bush.

Don't try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.
     
PacHead
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Jul 18, 2004, 07:38 PM
 
Originally posted by DeathToWindows:

While we're at it, consideing that the US, with bush as C in C, is responsible for thousands of civilian casualties, try those responsible for war crimes. This means you, bush.
Ok, now that is just ridiculous. That could apply to every single war fought, including WW I, WW II etc. Civilians were killed in each of those wars.

People get killed in wars, the fault lies with the aggresors and evil ones. Of course, if you consider Bush to be evil, then you are in agreement with the Bin Ladens & Michael Moores of the world, and there really isn't anything to discuss.

     
DBursey
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Jul 18, 2004, 08:02 PM
 
Moore doesn't portray Bush as evil; he shows hims as corrupt and incompetent.

As for you; you just hate America's freedoms, don'cha?
     
macvillage.net
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Jul 18, 2004, 08:09 PM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
Ok, now that is just ridiculous. That could apply to every single war fought, including WW I, WW II etc. Civilians were killed in each of those wars.

People get killed in wars, the fault lies with the aggresors and evil ones. Of course, if you consider Bush to be evil, then you are in agreement with the Bin Ladens & Michael Moores of the world, and there really isn't anything to discuss.

Well, Bush had documents pass his desk outlining the abuse alligations months earlier.

Unlike the popular media who also had the complaints... Bush could have stopped it.

He choose to ignore it until pictures leaked.


Now say you are a manager in a company, and an employee from somewhere else in the company comes to you and says they believe John Doe is sexually harassing some employees, and has seen it himself. You just ignore it.

Two months later, some women come forward with proof (pictures, audio tape, perhaps a stained blue dress)...

You can be damn sure you'll loose your job, and possibly face legal reprocussions for that. Why? Because you ignored the warning when you could have reacted.

If every employee in every company in the US has to have this drilled into their minds... why is the president, and the pentagon exempt from this beavior?

Why should you or I be in trouble for ignoring such a warning from just a casual employee... while the federal government can ignore these things from several well respected human rights organizations? Why are we held to a higher standard personally, than an entire government?


Either, they expect to much from us.... or some people expect way to little from our government.

If you or I could manage a small dept. in a company, and treat sexual harassment, or other workplace problems correctly... why can't our own government?

THAT is criminal.


If we are held to these strict standards (which I do 100% support). Why can't our government?


Either you and I are expected to be superman... or many people are sleeping on the job in the whitehouse and pentagon.
     
gerbnl
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Jul 19, 2004, 09:12 AM
 
Originally posted by BlackGriffen:
... because it would be considered child pornography, don't you?....
Even in the USA it should only be considered pornography if the content is explicit AND the intent is sexual arousal.

It's somewhat tragic that that last part seems to be forgotten time after time after time...
These people are Americans. Don't expect anything meaningful or... uh... normalcy...
     
macvillage.net
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Jul 19, 2004, 10:25 AM
 
Originally posted by gerbnl:
Even in the USA it should only be considered pornography if the content is explicit AND the intent is sexual arousal.

It's somewhat tragic that that last part seems to be forgotten time after time after time...
Peidophiles have used that as an excuse for many times.

It wasn't 'intended' when it was done.

But it's used for it afterwards.

Doesn't hold... As long as it sexually exploits children, it's criminal.

And remember, even if it's legal in the country, US law still prevails for US citizens (such as our soldiers).


Just like someone around here a few years ago wanted to run a prostitution ring... legally, how did they attempt it?

You paid to audition for as a porn star. Just like many people trying to get into acting pay their way to get an audition in the movies.

They thought as long as it was an 'audition', tape was rolling.. it was legal. It wasn't meant as prostitution.

Didn't last long. Person paid money, person recieved sex. That was the bottom line.
     
Logic
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Jul 19, 2004, 10:41 AM
 
Originally posted by PacHead:
People get killed in wars, the fault lies with the aggresors and evil ones.
Who attacked whom in this war?

And which side is responsible for most civilian deaths in this war?

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
Y3a
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Jul 19, 2004, 11:26 AM
 
They STILL have their heads right???
     
Logic
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Jul 19, 2004, 11:41 AM
 
Originally posted by Y3a:
They STILL have their heads right???
So it's ok as long as you aren't as bad as Saddam?

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
macvillage.net
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Jul 19, 2004, 11:49 AM
 
Originally posted by Logic:
So it's ok as long as you aren't as bad as Saddam?
Boy is that a free license.
     
Lerkfish
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Jul 19, 2004, 12:01 PM
 
Originally posted by Logic:
So it's ok as long as you aren't as bad as Saddam?
right...so here's the republican scale of relative morality:

If Saddam is worse than Hitler, and we only need to be slightly better than Saddam, then US = Hitler or worse.
     
macvillage.net
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Jul 19, 2004, 12:05 PM
 
Originally posted by Lerkfish:
right...so here's the republican scale of relative morality:

If Saddam is worse than Hitler, and we only need to be slightly better than Saddam, then US = Hitler or worse.
So Y3a says I can perform genocide against millions of people!

Oh boy!

     
PacHead
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Jul 19, 2004, 01:55 PM
 
Originally posted by Logic:
Who attacked whom in this war?

And which side is responsible for most civilian deaths in this war?
Iraq attacked their neighbors. The USA stepped in and helped Saudi Arabia and Kuwait kick the goon squads of saddam out, at the request of these countries. Iraq has been in violation of it's agreements ever since Gulfwar I ended.

As for the civilian deaths, I'd assume it has something to do with all of the muslim terrorists, um "freedom fighters" who are running around and blowing up Iraqi civilians, not to mention the million or so people which Saddam has killed.

Saddam stays in power = Millions of dead (No big deal for many people)

USA intervenes, ending saddams hell regime, and a mere few thousand civilians dead, many caused by musilm terrorists (Big, deal, a huge outrage for many people)

     
Y3a
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Jul 19, 2004, 07:15 PM
 
I guess some of you see little difference between beheading some driver, or reporter, and making a few Iraqi thugs and insurgents make a naked pyrimid to embarrass them?
     
Y3a
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Jul 19, 2004, 07:24 PM
 
I see some of the 'arguments' are making BIGTIME assumptions as to my point. If you see little difference between beheadings done by the terrorists, and embarrassing and humiliating some to get info that may prevent other deaths, then I suggest you dwell on what it would be like to be beheaded yourselves. think of being grabbed and held down and someone stepping on your head to keep it from moving as another thug stabs thru the soft parts of your neck, and SAWS YOUR HEAD AWAY FROM YOUR BODY as you try to scream, but all you hear is gurgles, and then, as you start to bleed heavily, they pull your head backwards to cause the blood to gush out. All while another thug is videotaping it and several other terrorist thugs are chanting about how great the devil they worship is.
     
macvillage.net
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Jul 19, 2004, 08:06 PM
 
Originally posted by Y3a:
I guess some of you see little difference between beheading some driver, or reporter, and making a few Iraqi thugs and insurgents make a naked pyrimid to embarrass them?
So we can still perform a Hitler right?
     
Y3a
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Jul 19, 2004, 10:11 PM
 
<< So we can still perform a Hitler right? >>

What is "a Hitler"??

Or are you referring to acting like Adolph Hitler?

You must not know many details of WW2 either.
     
gatekeeper
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Jul 20, 2004, 04:35 PM
 
Evidence for Hersh's claims of child sexual abuse at Abu Ghraib?
I saw [name deleted] ****ing a kid, his age would be about 15 - 18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard the screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn't covered and I saw [name deleted] who was wearing the military uniform putting his dick in the little kid's ass. I couldn't see the face of the kid because his face wasn't in front of the door. And the female soldier was taking pictures. [name deleted], I think he is [deleted] because of his accent, and he was not skinny or short, and he acted like a homosexual (gay). And that was in cell #23 as best as I remember.
Predictable right wing response: It's the thug's fault for being there in the first place.
     
Y3a
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Jul 20, 2004, 06:00 PM
 
So this kid getting boinked.... you are SURE he was just an innocent, and not the kid who pushed the button to detonate a bomb or something right??? You are SO QUICK to condem actions when you know NONE of the facts. typical of the left. whine for the opressed thugs and terrorists. The kid still had his head too right??? he's still alive right? you got any numbers to back up anything you've been stating? How many prisioners total, how many got humiliated, and what did we find out and how many people WERE NOT KILLED because we stopped them? How many were insurgants, and NOT Iraqi's? put some perspective on it, and remember it's a war zone. Compare it to Germany or Japan after WW2.
     
Lerkfish
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Jul 20, 2004, 07:47 PM
 
Originally posted by Y3a:
So this kid getting boinked.... you are SURE he was just an innocent, and not the kid who pushed the button to detonate a bomb or something right??? You are SO QUICK to condem actions when you know NONE of the facts. typical of the left. whine for the opressed thugs and terrorists. The kid still had his head too right??? he's still alive right? you got any numbers to back up anything you've been stating? How many prisioners total, how many got humiliated, and what did we find out and how many people WERE NOT KILLED because we stopped them? How many were insurgants, and NOT Iraqi's? put some perspective on it, and remember it's a war zone. Compare it to Germany or Japan after WW2.
LOL, your head is spinning.

Here's the deal: child rape: wrong. You believe BushCo is the second coming. Therefore you must negate the concept of child rape in order to continue to believe Bush is the Christ, because you're unwilling to accept that the things done in our name is abhorrent and disgusting, inhumane and cruel.

The problem is, the things done in our name ARE abhorrent and disgusting, inhumane and cruel...so you must continue this desperate spin of saying teenage boys deserve to be raped in front of their mothers in order to get information from her. Think about it. You are JUSTIFYING child rape. How does that make you feel?
     
Sven G
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Jul 21, 2004, 03:57 AM
 
... And, above all, the very motivations for war are indeed the most inhumane, cruel and disgusting ones: ultimately, only a desperate quest for "power" and profit!

BTW, here's a recent song by Edoardo Bennato (probably, he's rather unknown outside Italy): A cosa serve la guerra? (What Is The Purpose Of War?, approximately) - you'll have to translate it yourself, however, as the lyrics don't seem to be available in English...

A cosa serve la guerra diciamo la verit�
serve soltanto a vincer la gara dell�inutilit�

A cosa serve la guerra � la guerra non serve mai
serve soltanto a trovare rimedi che sono peggiori dei mali

Ogni soldato che parte � ogni soldato del re
vorrei raggiungerlo con questo valzer � fargli cantare con me

A cosa serve la guerra diciamo la verit�
serve soltanto a vincer la gara dell�inutilit�

La guerra � sempre la stessa � ognuno la perder�
e a ogni soldato che muore si perde un po� di umanit�

La guerra � sempre la stessa devi partire e non sai
se � una minaccia o se � una promessa
che � l�ultima guerra che fai

Come uno stupido valzer � la storia non cambier�
ma � sempre meglio cantarla ogni tanto - questa canzone che fa

La guerra � un caso irrisolto � perch� la sua soluzione
� che il pi� debole ha sempre torto e il pi� forte ha sempre ragione

A cosa serve la guerra diciamo la verit�
serve soltanto a vincer la gara dell�inutilit�
( Last edited by Sven G; Jul 21, 2004 at 04:18 AM. )

The freedom of all is essential to my freedom. - Mikhail Bakunin
     
Logic
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Jul 21, 2004, 05:50 AM
 
Originally posted by Y3a:
So this kid getting boinked.... you are SURE he was just an innocent, and not the kid who pushed the button to detonate a bomb or something right??? You are SO QUICK to condem actions when you know NONE of the facts. typical of the left. whine for the opressed thugs and terrorists. The kid still had his head too right??? he's still alive right? you got any numbers to back up anything you've been stating? How many prisioners total, how many got humiliated, and what did we find out and how many people WERE NOT KILLED because we stopped them? How many were insurgants, and NOT Iraqi's? put some perspective on it, and remember it's a war zone. Compare it to Germany or Japan after WW2.
You sick bastard! You are defending CHILD RAPE!!!!

"If Bush says we hate freedom, let him tell us why we didn't attack Sweden, for example. OBL 29th oct
     
macvillage.net
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Jul 21, 2004, 09:25 AM
 
Originally posted by Y3a:
So this kid getting boinked.... you are SURE he was just an innocent, and not the kid who pushed the button to detonate a bomb or something right??? You are SO QUICK to condem actions when you know NONE of the facts. typical of the left. whine for the opressed thugs and terrorists. The kid still had his head too right??? he's still alive right? you got any numbers to back up anything you've been stating? How many prisioners total, how many got humiliated, and what did we find out and how many people WERE NOT KILLED because we stopped them? How many were insurgants, and NOT Iraqi's? put some perspective on it, and remember it's a war zone. Compare it to Germany or Japan after WW2.
I'm curious.

If your kid was accused of something, and thrown in jail for the night... and raped.


Would you complain? Or would you support the cop?


If you support the cop, your sick and twisted, beyond help but at least consistant.
     
xi_hyperon
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Jul 21, 2004, 09:48 AM
 
Originally posted by Y3a:
So this kid getting boinked.... you are SURE he was just an innocent, and not the kid who pushed the button to detonate a bomb or something right??? You are SO QUICK to condem actions when you know NONE of the facts. typical of the left. whine for the opressed thugs and terrorists. The kid still had his head too right??? he's still alive right? you got any numbers to back up anything you've been stating? How many prisioners total, how many got humiliated, and what did we find out and how many people WERE NOT KILLED because we stopped them? How many were insurgants, and NOT Iraqi's? put some perspective on it, and remember it's a war zone. Compare it to Germany or Japan after WW2.
Wow. You are one messed up individual if you think child rape is justifiable in any case. Very messed up.

[edit: toned down comments]
     
Y3a
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Jul 21, 2004, 10:23 AM
 
So rape of an 18 year old terrorist is worse than murder?

Hmmm how interesting.



I guess if it was your son, murdered by a brat with a detonator you 'might' be able to see another side.

( Lets not ask the 'children' anything I'm sure they couldn't have been involved)


You also seem to assume a WHOLE LOT MORE than the text infers.
     
Lerkfish
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:09 AM
 
Originally posted by Y3a:
So rape of an 18 year old terrorist is worse than murder?

Hmmm how interesting.



I guess if it was your son, murdered by a brat with a detonator you 'might' be able to see another side.

( Lets not ask the 'children' anything I'm sure they couldn't have been involved)


You also seem to assume a WHOLE LOT MORE than the text infers.
OMG! you ARE defending child rape.

just to point out to you, many of the young boys were raped in front of their parents, to get THEIR PARENTS to talk during interrogations. The boys did nothing except be related to someone they wanted to question.
Now, consider, I don't guess you're a parent from your comments here, but try to imagine, if you can, you have a 13 yr old son, the police arrest YOU on suspicion of a crime, and they bring in your son and rape him in front of you to get you to incriminate yourself.

Several things will result:
1. most parents would admit to ANYTHING to prevent that from happening again, so the validity of their confessions is meaningless.
2. If those parents survive, what do you think they will do when released? Think hard, think Fallujah.
     
xi_hyperon
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:20 AM
 
Originally posted by Y3a:
I guess if it was your son, murdered by a brat with a detonator you 'might' be able to see another side.
Thanks for the confirmation.
     
dcolton
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:24 AM
 
Originally posted by Lerkfish:
OMG! you ARE defending child rape.

just to point out to you, many of the young boys were raped in front of their parents, to get THEIR PARENTS to talk during interrogations. The boys did nothing except be related to someone they wanted to question.
Now, consider, I don't guess you're a parent from your comments here, but try to imagine, if you can, you have a 13 yr old son, the police arrest YOU on suspicion of a crime, and they bring in your son and rape him in front of you to get you to incriminate yourself.

Several things will result:
1. most parents would admit to ANYTHING to prevent that from happening again, so the validity of their confessions is meaningless.
2. If those parents survive, what do you think they will do when released? Think hard, think Fallujah.
We agree on about .0001% of the issues, Lerk. But we agree 100% here.

Y3a,

I can understand your reasoning, and I agree that it is quite offensive that the lefties are blaming the Bush administration for this horrific act when the sources that I have seen claim that an IRAQI committed this act. I agree that it is offensive that the lefties will compare beheadings, murder and mutilation to a few naked terrorists. But the gay rape of a child is amoral, horrific and disguisting. I guess thats the problem when you allow morally bankrupt people in the military. I pray it was not an American soldier, but if so, perhaps we should rethink our don't ask don't tell policy
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:34 AM
 
dcolton:

Please do not continue confusing paedophilia and homosexuality.

they are not related. They have nothing to do with each other. And I consider it extremely offensive that you continually muddle the two - whether intentionally or not.

Please stop.

-s*
     
dcolton
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:37 AM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
dcolton:

Please do not continue confusing paedophilia and homosexuality.

they are not related. They have nothing to do with each other. And I consider it extremely offensive that you continually muddle the two - whether intentionally or not.

Please stop.

-s*
Okay

Are you going to stop editing my quotes?
     
Lerkfish
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:37 AM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
We agree on about .0001% of the issues, Lerk. But we agree 100% here.

Y3a,

I can understand your reasoning, and I agree that it is quite offensive that the lefties are blaming the Bush administration for this horrific act when the sources that I have seen claim that an IRAQI committed this act. I agree that it is offensive that the lefties will compare beheadings, murder and mutilation to a few naked terrorists. But the gay rape of a child is amoral, horrific and disguisting. I guess thats the problem when you allow morally bankrupt people in the military. I pray it was not an American soldier, but if so, perhaps we should rethink our don't ask don't tell policy
sorry, but you're late in your talking points. the left knew waaaay ahead of time you guys were going to bring Abu Ghraib issue around to blaming homosexuals in the military.

     
Lerkfish
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:38 AM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
dcolton:

Please do not continue confusing paedophilia and homosexuality.

they are not related. They have nothing to do with each other. And I consider it extremely offensive that you continually muddle the two - whether intentionally or not.

Please stop.

-s*
further, let's not confuse brutal interrogation technique with pedophilia.
     
dcolton
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:39 AM
 
Originally posted by Lerkfish:
further, let's not confuse brutal interrogation technique with pedophilia.
This is not a interrogation technique...it is simply sadistic brutality.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:41 AM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
Okay

Are you going to stop editing my quotes?
Are you going to vote Libertarian?

WTF?

When it's the most effective response, I will continue to edit your posts when I quote them. However, I will in future try to make it more clear that they have been edited - lest people think you actually believe in equal rights.

-s*
     
dcolton
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:44 AM
 
Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Are you going to vote Libertarian?

WTF?

When it's the most effective response, I will continue to edit your posts when I quote them. However, I will in future try to make it more clear that they have been edited - lest people think you actually believe in equal rights.

-s*
Fair enough. (Although I think it is pretty low to edit someones posts. I thought you could think for yourself!
     
Y3a
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:51 AM
 
I never said I condone the rape of the kid, but I do say you must have MORE FACTS and LESS ASSUMPTIONS before running your mouths.

I hope the ones who went overboard, and waay past the rules of questioning have to stay in prisons JUST LIKE THAT, but I hope the information gathered will save some lives, and prevent more terrorist acts. we don't need any more beheadings, but If the choice is get raped or get beheaded, which would YOU choose?
     
Lerkfish
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:51 AM
 
Originally posted by dcolton:
This is not a interrogation technique...it is simply sadistic brutality.
sadly, apparently it is an interrogation technique, according to Seymour hersh and the New Yorker.
     
Lerkfish
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Jul 21, 2004, 11:52 AM
 
Originally posted by Y3a:
I never said I condone the rape of the kid, but I do say you must have MORE FACTS and LESS ASSUMPTIONS before running your mouths.

I hope the ones who went overboard, and waay past the rules of questioning have to stay in prisons JUST LIKE THAT, but I hope the information gathered will save some lives, and prevent more terrorist acts. we don't need any more beheadings, but If the choice is get raped or get beheaded, which would YOU choose?
why are those the only two choices?
     
 
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