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hldan · Jul 26, 2007, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by rubaiyat

Leopard looks like it is going to follow Vista not just in a belated launch date but also in its disappointing lack of compelling features.

What R U talking about? Jobs said there were 300 new features. Now most of us know that at least 60% is under the hood but if you think that what we saw at WWDC and the build given to the developers is all were getting in Leopard then you know nothing about computers. Things change at the last minute.

CharlesS · Jul 26, 2007, 09:11 PM

If you think that it's normal for hundreds of features to get added to a major operating system at the last minute without any testing time, than I think that perhaps "U R" the one that knows nothing about computers.

hldan · Jul 26, 2007, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

If you think that it's normal for hundreds of features to get added to a major operating system at the last minute without any testing time, than I think that perhaps "U R" the one that knows nothing about computers.

Dude, get real, what planet are you on??? What makes you think that the version that Apple has sent to the developers is the one with all the features? Did it ever occur to you that Apple is sitting on the final version with all 300 features at headquarters? Did it ever occur to you why Apple has taken no action on the developer preview that was posted on BitTorrent? Apple doesn't give a rats behind that it's on BitTorrent because the WWDC version only has the basics. Notice that they didn't show anything involving Spotlight?
The developer preview version doesn't have anything new in Spotlight and Spotlight is an integral part of OS X.
Do you get it now? There's another version of Leopard at Apple's headquarters that they don't want to reveal.

besson3c · Jul 26, 2007, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by hldan

Dude, get real, what planet are you on??? What makes you think that the version that Apple has sent to the developers is the one with all the features? Did it ever occur to you that Apple is sitting on the final version with all 300 features at headquarters? Did it ever occur to you why Apple has taken no action on the developer preview that was posted on BitTorrent? Apple doesn't give a rats behind that it's on BitTorrent because the WWDC version only has the basics. Notice that they didn't show anything involving Spotlight?
The developer preview version doesn't have anything new in Spotlight and Spotlight is an integral part of OS X.
Do you get it now? There's another version of Leopard at Apple's headquarters that they don't want to reveal.

What's with the attitude?

Apple called the WWDC build "feature complete", and several reports have indicated that whatever changes will be made between then and release date will be minor. Charles is right, it is foolish to release new features to the public without them being tested by developers, and as each day passes we are getting closer to the point where there simply may not be enough time to slip in a feature and make it stable by release date even if Apple wanted to.

This is fine with me too. I don't want more bells and whistles, but simply for stuff to work properly (and faster would be nice too).

hldan · Jul 26, 2007, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

What's with the attitude?

Apple called the WWDC build "feature complete", and several reports have indicated that whatever changes will be made between then and release date will be minor. Charles is right, it is foolish to release new features to the public without them being tested by developers, and as each day passes we are getting closer to the point where there simply may not be enough time to slip in a feature and make it stable by release date even if Apple wanted to.

This is fine with me too. I don't want more bells and whistles, but simply for stuff to work properly (and faster would be nice too).

Sorry about that, I did come off too strong but I was sorta called a dumbass by Charles. Certain features don't have to be included for the developer especially when it comes to Spotlight. If you remember any of Apple's history they have always touted 150 new features in OS X so when they say 300 in Leopard and all we see are 10 it's just not possible that the other 290 are only under the hood.

0157988944 · Jul 26, 2007, 11:43 PM

They are going to have a feature, maybe two, that no-one has seen, but because they haven't been released to developers, they can't be too big. Maybe a cool new screensaver. 100 new features would just be stupid of them.

brokenjago · Jul 27, 2007, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by hdlan

Sorry about that, I did come off too strong but I was sorta called a dumbass by Charles. Certain features don't have to be included for the developer especially when it comes to Spotlight. If you remember any of Apple's history they have always touted 150 new features in OS X so when they say 300 in Leopard and all we see are 10 it's just not possible that the other 290 are only under the hood.

You are completely retarded. I'm not even going to try to argue with you.

besson3c · Jul 27, 2007, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

They are going to have a feature, maybe two, that no-one has seen, but because they haven't been released to developers, they can't be too big. Maybe a cool new screensaver. 100 new features would just be stupid of them.

A new screensaver, new desktop pictures, a change of icon, language tweaks, etc. are not really new features, but simply tweaks. There will certainly be usability tweaks, but not new features, most likely...

0157988944 · Jul 27, 2007, 12:11 AM

You are completely retarded. I'm not even going to try to argue with you.

I will!

Do you even own a developer Leopard?

No-one ever said these 290 changes were under the hood!

One I can think of is that preview is all new. There are many others. I'd say maybe less than 100 are under the hood. Another 100 are visible, but don't really matter. the last 100 are thing like redesigned programs and new screensavers, widgets, little things.

hldan · Jul 27, 2007, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

I will!

Do you even own a developer Leopard?

No-one ever said these 290 changes were under the hood!

One I can think of is that preview is all new. There are many others. I'd say maybe less than 100 are under the hood. Another 100 are visible, but don't really matter. the last 100 are thing like redesigned programs and new screensavers, widgets, little things.

Well, unless you are on Apple's design team then you really don't know any more than anyone else. Get off your high horse!

0157988944 · Jul 27, 2007, 12:43 AM

I'm not on a high horse, I'm using common sense and predicting the future based on the past.

besson3c · Jul 27, 2007, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by hldan

Well, unless you are on Apple's design team then you really don't know any more than anyone else. Get off your high horse!

Keeping this valid point in mind, perhaps you'd like to take back the degree of certainty in which you proclaimed the things you wrote to Charles?

hldan · Jul 27, 2007, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Keeping this valid point in mind, perhaps you'd like to take back the degree of certainty in which you proclaimed the things you wrote to Charles?

This is an open forum, I have just as much right to write anything as you all do. If you don't like what I had to say you can simply choose not to reply or comment as I will be doing for now on.

CharlesS · 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by hldan

Dude, get real, what planet are you on??? What makes you think that the version that Apple has sent to the developers is the one with all the features? Did it ever occur to you that Apple is sitting on the final version with all 300 features at headquarters? Did it ever occur to you why Apple has taken no action on the developer preview that was posted on BitTorrent? Apple doesn't give a rats behind that it's on BitTorrent because the WWDC version only has the basics. Notice that they didn't show anything involving Spotlight?
The developer preview version doesn't have anything new in Spotlight and Spotlight is an integral part of OS X.
Do you get it now? There's another version of Leopard at Apple's headquarters that they don't want to reveal.

Yes, and 4K78 isn't the final build of 10.0! There's a secret 5L89 build that has all kinds of super secret features and is twice as snappy and... oh wait.

We've been here before. Over and over again. Someone is always claiming that there's some secret surprise that won't show up until the last minute. It never turns out to be true. And the reason is that if they did that, the end product would be fantastically buggy.

And if you don't understand that, then I'm afraid you really do know nothing about software development.

besson3c · Jul 27, 2007, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by hldan

This is an open forum, I have just as much right to write anything as you all do. If you don't like what I had to say you can simply choose not to reply or comment as I will be doing for now on.

You're right, you are perfectly willing to share your half-cocked theories with us. However, if you insist on doing as much, perhaps your arguments won't be as strong?

Just assuming you are interested in making coherent, sound arguments.

Yawn · 11:28 PM

besson3c, what's the deal with <++++>? It's true, hldan doesn't know what the heck he's talking about, but I'm pretty sure CharlesS can stand up for himself. You trying as hard as you can to cuddle up to him in public is kinda ridiculous though.

analogika · Jul 27, 2007, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by Yawn

besson3c, what's the deal with sucking sucking CharlesS' balls? It's true, hldan doesn't know what the heck he's talking about, but I'm pretty sure CharlesS can stand up for himself. You trying as hard as you can to cuddle up to him in public is kinda ridiculous though.

Woah. hldan's signed up second nick just to crap on besson3c? That's lame.

besson3c wasn't "sucking CharlesS' balls" at all: he was VERY CAREFULLY pointing out that hldan is completely full of ****, and has, by his own argument, made absolutely no point at all.

I am not a developer, but I have been using/following OS X since DP3, and FWIW, I'm inclined to agree with both besson AND CharlesS on this.

Apart from that, CharlesS actually knows a thing or two about software development, BEING a software developer and all...

JLL · Jul 27, 2007, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by hldan

Dude, get real, what planet are you on??? What makes you think that the version that Apple has sent to the developers is the one with all the features?

Because they said so?

moonmonkey · Jul 27, 2007, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

Woah. hldan's signed up second nick just to crap on besson3c? That's lame.

Thats funny!

Simon · Jul 27, 2007, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by moonmonkey

Thats funny!

And probably wrong, too. Yawn signed up in March 06. If that was done to "crap on besson3c" today that's one hell of a foresight if you ask me.

How about getting back on topic? Any new stuff in the recently released 9A499?

hldan · Jul 27, 2007, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

Woah. hldan's signed up second nick just to crap on besson3c? That's lame.

besson3c wasn't "sucking CharlesS' balls" at all: he was VERY CAREFULLY pointing out that hldan is completely full of ****, and has, by his own argument, made absolutely no point at all.

I am not a developer, but I have been using/following OS X since DP3, and FWIW, I'm inclined to agree with both besson AND CharlesS on this.

Apart from that, CharlesS actually knows a thing or two about software development, BEING a software developer and all...

Who are you guys here? I didn't sign up any new account name here? Does it look like that person was sticking up for me? I've been a member on this forum for a long time and I can hold my own against rude comments. I don't need to sign up new account names and hide like a bitch to say rude things to besson3c. Some of you need to get a life.

besson3c · Jul 27, 2007, 01:09 PM

I think all of you owe me an apology.

Mithras · Jul 27, 2007, 01:10 PM

Best new feature of Leopard that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere:
X11.app launches on demand.

I had ssh -Y'd into a remote server, and unthinkingly started an X11 application. Normally, if you haven't already launched X11 before sshing in, this will fail. Instead, X11 starting bouncing, and lo! it all fired up and connect just fine. That's wonderful.

besson3c · Jul 27, 2007, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mithras

Best new feature of Leopard that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere:
X11.app launches on demand.

I had ssh -Y'd into a remote server, and unthinkingly started an X11 application. Normally, if you haven't already launched X11 before sshing in, this will fail. Instead, X11 starting bouncing, and lo! it all fired up and connect just fine. That's wonderful.

It sure is!

I wonder if Apple has done other work in updating their X11 environment?

Simon · Jul 27, 2007, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mithras

Best new feature of Leopard that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere:
X11.app launches on demand.

That's very cool.

I hardly use Terminal anymore because I have a keybinding for a customized xterm window in X11. I've wondered why Apple doesn't merge Terminal and the X11 app. Not launching X11 could still be a Terminal option. I would also appreciate it they made X11 copy/pasting an option in OS X. When I'm working in X11 and switch to a Mac app I always do a middle-click instead of cmd-v.

0157988944 · Jul 27, 2007, 01:49 PM

Think Secret - Apple delivers new Leopard seed (images)

A couple of images of 9A499.

Does that crosswalk thing piss anyone else off? I know that will bother me. It's way too distracting.

Art Vandelay · Jul 27, 2007, 02:39 PM

It's subtle. It isn't much more noticeable than the icon reflections. I don't notice it unless I'm directly looking at the Dock.

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jul 27, 2007, 02:44 PM

Read the idiotic comments on Think Secret. Those monkeys obviously don't know what happens when you hold down command and click on the title bar. Why is Apple using Vista's space consuming method of showing the file path anyway?

0157988944 · Jul 27, 2007, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

Read the idiotic comments on Think Secret. Those monkeys obviously don't know what happens when you hold down command and click on the title bar. Why is Apple using Vista's space consuming method of showing the file path anyway?

It's optional, and quite useful. I don't like column view, and I'd rather not hold down Command and click the title bar, if I can have it displayed right there.

0157988944 · Jul 27, 2007, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Art Vandelay

It's subtle. It isn't much more noticeable than the icon reflections. I don't notice it unless I'm directly looking at the Dock.

Perhaps if it werent dotted... it's just so thick, though. It's gonna be one of those little distracting things for me.

unhappyending · Jul 27, 2007, 04:54 PM

I'm saving right now for Leopard, I have $100 I think. I'll buy a new iPod nano with the extra money I have...

Simon · Jul 27, 2007, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

Think Secret - Apple delivers new Leopard seed (images)

A couple of images of 9A499.

The icons in the transparent menu bar are starting to look right.

Anybody else here diggin the rounded corners on the pop-up menu?

Kerrigan · Jul 28, 2007, 12:03 AM

Ya, the rounded corners are soft and distinct. It's these little details that set the Mac OS apart.

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jul 28, 2007, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

Perhaps if it werent dotted... it's just so thick, though. It's gonna be one of those little distracting things for me.

I'm going to theme the Dock. Black with yellow or white crosswalk.

analogika · Jul 28, 2007, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

Read the idiotic comments on Think Secret. Those monkeys obviously don't know what happens when you hold down command and click on the title bar. Why is Apple using Vista's space consuming method of showing the file path anyway?

Because having to Command-click the title-bar is a useful shortcut, but NOT by any stretch of the imagination intuitive functionality. (Have you noticed that it works for websites in Safari too, btw?

)

Being able to add the file-path widget to the toolbar is hardly better or more accessible.

Why would you use a Finder window anyway? You monkeys obviously don't know what happens when you cd to a directory and type ls -al.

This file-path display is NeXT, btw, NOT Windows, and I've been sorely missing it for a long time.

Obi Wan's Ghost · Jul 28, 2007, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

Because having to Command-click the title-bar is a useful shortcut, but NOT by any stretch of the imagination intuitive functionality. (Have you noticed that it works for websites in Safari too, btw?

)

I find it useful because it opens a new window where I can paste to or do separate operations before returning to the previous window. All without scrolling around back and forth too much.

analogika · Jul 28, 2007, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

And probably wrong, too. Yawn signed up in March 06. If that was done to "crap on besson3c" today that's one hell of a foresight if you ask me.

Yeah, I noticed that, but I figured I'd just let it stand anyway. Why should my point make any more sense than hldan's?

Originally Posted by Simon

How about getting back on topic? Any new stuff in the recently released 9A499?

Right you are. :salutes:

moonmonkey · Jul 28, 2007, 05:01 AM

I love it!

Simon · Jul 28, 2007, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

Why would you use a Finder window anyway? You monkeys obviously don't know what happens when you cd to a directory and type ls -al.

This is slightly OT, but since the topic of finder window paths and the shell has come up, I thought I could point out the excellent pos (fink package).

It gives you the utility posd (actually its a shell script with an osascript call) which returns the path of the front most open Finder window. If you set up an alias like alias cdf='cd "$(posd)"' you can then do a cdf in any shell and it will cd to where you are in the Finder. fdc is essentially the reciprocal operation of cdf. From any shell it will open a Finder window of the directory your are currently in. If you often jump back and forth between the Finder and shells it's a real time saver.

</offtopic>

DarkStarRed · Jul 28, 2007, 12:35 PM

That's nice new pic's but I always preferred my Doc Clear! I'll guess ShapeShifter's Application Enhancer will do it in Leopard. I do love the glowing orbs under each app or folder open though

has to the Comand-click on title-bar for Path Tiger already has the icon-button via Finder>View>Customise Toolbar so the'll in clude this in Leopard too!

TETENAL · Jul 28, 2007, 02:54 PM

I hope they will overhaul the scrollbars for the final version.

Kevin · Jul 28, 2007, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by adamfishercox

I've read the HIG. I was talking purely from a looks standpoint. I hate brushed metal/ Aqua/ Unified as much as the next guy. But I loathe iTunes 7.

Well them theme it. You can do it. When OS X came out I hated Aqua. So I made Simple Aqua and Sosumi. A lot of people griped about the Aqua "Candy" look. That it was just a selling schtick and not too useful. Thank God they gave us graphite. Aqua isn't bad in graphite mode when you hack out the stripes.

Once again, AESTHETICALLY, Vista looks good. It may suck functionality-wise, but it LOOKS good. That's all I'm sayin'.

It's not consistent. And when you use it it's not "pretty". Even on high end hardware it was choppy. Much like 10.0 was.

I'm still getting Leopard, I don't care that much about scroll bars. They just bug me.

Then hack them. Apple has been getting away from the distracting GUI look with every new update.

It's because that is what most users are requesting. A functional modern GUI. Not a kids toyland Aqua was.

IMHO.

Kevin · Jul 28, 2007, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by hldan

This is an open forum, I have just as much right to write anything as you all do. If you don't like what I had to say you can simply choose not to reply or comment as I will be doing for now on.

I think you missed the point besson was making. He didn't say you couldn't post here. He was saying take you own advice.

Kevin · Jul 28, 2007, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I hope they will overhaul the scrollbars for the final version.

Seeing how I don't think they'd just give iTunes different scroll bars than the rest of the OS...

They need to get rid of most of Aqua's elements. I think we will see a different looking GUI when it finally hits the streets. But again, that isn't really a feature.

Taylor C · Jul 28, 2007, 10:59 PM

I think a lot of changes are going to be made. If you look closely at the dock in the "Desktop" preview video on Apple's website, you'll see the new dock separator. This was released before 9A499, and I'm fairly sure they didn't update it to reflect those minor changes. In addition, the dock icons don't have the strong shadow behind them on the desktop's surface. It's pretty clear that the build used in the videos is different from the seeds developers are getting.

Personally, I like the remaining Aqua elements. It's aqua.. refined. I'd like iTunes to use the same scroll bars as the rest of the system, but its not a huge issue. Either way, I don't really mind. Both looks are smooth and well executed.

Thinine · Jul 28, 2007, 11:09 PM

What? The Apple demo videos don't have the dock separator. What are you talking about?

moonmonkey · Jul 29, 2007, 07:55 PM

Some of the still images on Apples site are mocked up mistakes and all, don't takes these as an indication of what Leopard will look like, the new build is the closest to the finish product.

Amorya · Jul 29, 2007, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Yes, and 4K78 isn't the final build of 10.0! There's a secret 5L89 build that has all kinds of super secret features and is twice as snappy and... oh wait.

No, 4k78 is GM, but there are two separate 4k78s, one of which has the debug code removed and is snappier!

NateMarg · Jul 29, 2007, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by moonmonkey

I love it!

One issue I see with the dock separator (and the possibly the new dock in general) is that it doesn't have a consistent vanishing point. If the dock is supposed to appear 3D-ish, then the separator should adhere to the same vanishing point.

Also, does anyone know if the angle on the ends on the dock change according to the dock width? They really should to maintain the 3D effect. Not that big of a deal, I guess. But if they're going to the effort to make it 3D-ish -- why not make it a Open GL 3D object that transforms as needed? Instead it looks to be more of a faux 3D.

NateMarg · Jul 29, 2007, 11:29 PM

Here is a quick diagram with separator angled to use the same vanishing point as the dock edges.