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Why have Nokia gone all wrong?
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imitchellg5
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Jan 4, 2010, 12:48 PM
 
If you haven't been paying attention to the news lately, Nokia has filed several complaints against Apple (and many other electronics manufacturers) claiming that every single bit of their technology was stolen from Nokia. Now, Nokia wants the sales of every Apple product banned. This seems completely ridiculous; it's like they're just taking cheapshots at their competitors. Can Nokia really even do this? It's pretty ridiculous to assume that Nokia owns the patent for a product such as the MacBook; after all the MacBook isn't really anything special, it's just a laptop.

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turtle777
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Jan 4, 2010, 12:57 PM
 
Signs of a dying conmpany; they resort to last-minute Hail-Mary tactics, trying to swing things in their favor.

Nokia has been dying for years. While they still produce masses of cheap cell phones, they are not making good money with it any more, and they lost their innovation power.

Common sense tells you that Nokia's allegations are BS. After all, if they really had all this knowledge and patents, why are their products largly a FAIL or just meh ?

-t
     
jokell82
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Jan 4, 2010, 01:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Common sense tells you that Nokia's allegations are BS. After all, if they really had all this knowledge and patents, why are their products largly a FAIL or just meh ?
One really has nothing to do with the other. If they actually have a patent on touch screens, it doesn't matter if their own products are crap.

What does matter, though, is if they haven't been enforcing those patents it pretty much negates their argument.

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imitchellg5  (op)
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Jan 4, 2010, 01:13 PM
 
One would think that Nokia would have brought these allegations forward as soon as the iPhone was announced; not wait a few years until it was well-established in the marketplace.
     
turtle777
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Jan 4, 2010, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
One really has nothing to do with the other. If they actually have a patent on touch screens, it doesn't matter if their own products are crap.
IMO, in the big scheme of things, those things ARE connected.

Clearly, Nokia is in trouble. Their "smart" phones are not cutting it against the competition. Sure, it's possible that Nokia has all the patents, and they opted not to take advantage of them. But that would further my point that Nokia has lost its footing.

However, I don't think that Nokia is suddenly the big innovative company, and Apple just the copycat.

Of course, one has to keep in mind that the US patent system itself provides more than enough ambiguity by allowing trivial patents.

-t
     
Andy8
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Jan 4, 2010, 01:17 PM
 
Desperate people, do desperate things.
     
EndlessMac
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Jan 4, 2010, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Andy8 View Post
Desperate people, do desperate things.
That's the way I see it too. What they are doing might actually put the final nail in the coffin for Nokia because this is making them look very petty.
     
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Jan 4, 2010, 05:17 PM
 
SCO started down this path and look where they are now. I'm glad I don't own any NOK.
     
dedalus
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Jan 4, 2010, 06:29 PM
 
Nokia, Nokia, Nokia. Who cares? I have a friggin Matrix dumbphone which sort of works well enough (aside from the fact that the UI stinks and I can’t turn texting off, bought it for nostalgic reasons), the frigtards at PC World encouraged me to buy a Nokia phone for my elderly neighbour because the thing was supposedly easy to use (wasn’t, haptics were shite, industrial design absent, she couldn’t use it really). Basically, useless rubbish, all in all. Nokia deserve to go down, as far as I’m concerned. Stuff them.
     
imitchellg5  (op)
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Jan 4, 2010, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
Nokia, Nokia, Nokia. Who cares? I have a friggin Matrix dumbphone which sort of works well enough (aside from the fact that the UI stinks and I can’t turn texting off, bought it for nostalgic reasons), the frigtards at PC World encouraged me to buy a Nokia phone for my elderly neighbour because the thing was supposedly easy to use (wasn’t, haptics were shite, industrial design absent, she couldn’t use it really). Basically, useless rubbish, all in all. Nokia deserve to go down, as far as I’m concerned. Stuff them.
Erm, what?
     
dedalus
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Jan 4, 2010, 07:01 PM
 
What, what, what, ‘Erm, what?’?

Do you have some kind of point?
     
Judge_Fire
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Jan 4, 2010, 07:03 PM
 
It's because they wear suits. And ties, restricts the blood flow. Compare to any other software CEO, COO etc. for proof.

Also, they have lawyers and accountants at the top. These guys don't love their products or care for detail, they don't understand that doing one great device can be better than 5 dozen mostly good ones. There are a lot of insanely talented people working in their R&D, and by a lot I mean something like 17 000 last time I checked. Seriously! But there is this huge disconnect between that and the actual product pipeline. You could almost imagine R&D is there only for the patent portfolio's sake...

They're doing interesting stuff in the low end, with developing countries and their services, such as money transfer and market information. Let's see if they can grow that.
     
imitchellg5  (op)
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Jan 4, 2010, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by dedalus View Post
What, what, what, ‘Erm, what?’?

Do you have some kind of point?
I was actually wondering what your point was.

Because saying that a company should fail because of one bad product seems rather callous. If every company that made a failure of a product went out of business, there would be no business.
     
turtle777
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Jan 4, 2010, 07:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
I was actually wondering what your point was.

Because saying that a company should fail because of one bad product seems rather callous. If every company that made a failure of a product went out of business, there would be no business.
Should fail ?

I understood hsi post as a perfect example why Nokia will fail.

-t
     
dedalus
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Jan 4, 2010, 07:13 PM
 
It’s not one bad product, it’s over a decade’s worth of innovative atrophy. Feel free to disagree, but that’s the way I see it. Nokia’s finished, there’s no spark.
     
starman
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Jan 4, 2010, 07:25 PM
 
The N95 was a damn good phone as far as features go, but it sucked with respect to usability. Had 2 cams, 3G, WiFi, the works.

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turtle777
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Jan 4, 2010, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
The N95 was a damn good phone as far as features go, but it sucked with respect to usability. Had 2 cams, 3G, WiFi, the works.
There was never a shortage of devices that had the right specs / features. They all sucked usability wise.

That's where the iPhone completely changed history.

-t
     
Phileas
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Jan 4, 2010, 08:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
There was never a shortage of devices that had the right specs / features. They all sucked usability wise.

That's where the iPhone completely changed history.

-t
QFT. Nothing the iPhone could do when it came out was revolutionary. It was just the first phone that made it all easy.

I used to be a huge Nokia fan, many years ago. Now you only have to go and look at their website to see how crap they've become.
( Last edited by Phileas; Jan 4, 2010 at 08:12 PM. )
     
starman
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Jan 5, 2010, 02:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
QFT. Nothing the iPhone could do when it came out was revolutionary. It was just the first phone that made it all easy.
That's what made it revolutionary. Look how many copycats there are now.

And was there a mutitouch phone before the iPhone? I don't think there was.

If it wasn't for the iPhone we'd still be using some crappy Palm-clone OS with no on-screen keyboard (which I like...hated it on the Pre when I was testing it for CNet), no easy access to pages of apps, no app store (revolutionary!), no good GPS maps, no tight integration with a Mac/Windows OS.

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King Bob On The Cob
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Jan 5, 2010, 08:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
That's what made it revolutionary. Look how many copycats there are now.

And was there a mutitouch phone before the iPhone? I don't think there was.

If it wasn't for the iPhone we'd still be using some crappy Palm-clone OS with no on-screen keyboard (which I like...hated it on the Pre when I was testing it for CNet), no easy access to pages of apps, no app store (revolutionary!), no good GPS maps, no tight integration with a Mac/Windows OS.
All the multitouch patents were from a company called FingerWorks, who Apple purchased and brought the right people and tech on board.

I expect Apple to turn their entire patent portfolio loose an Nokia, and since Apple can't afford to lose GMS, and Nokia can't afford to lose the GUI, they'll settle.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jan 6, 2010, 01:45 AM
 
To be honest I never understood what was so "right" about them to begin with.

They should spend time making quality products that can compete rather then trying to sue back market-share.
     
Andy8
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Jan 6, 2010, 04:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
They should spend time making quality products that can compete rather then trying to sue back market-share.
Exactly.
     
Salty
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Jan 13, 2010, 01:08 AM
 
The problem is that Nokia didn't really see the advent of the Smartphone, their offerings still compete best against things like the old Palm OS based Treos, and not really well against platforms like iPhone OS, or Android. They're arguably passable against Blackberry but only in markets where they already are dominant, and that's changing.

I think Nokia is still coming to grips with the fact that they're a dying brand. I still see Europeans, Africans and some Asians who love Nokia and look for them when they're looking for a phone, but most of those people all still acknowledge that Blackberries and iPhones are better, and they look at those as brands to aspire to.

The problem for Nokia is that basically they only make phones for old people now. They make a phone that my Dad or Mom who don't care about their phone could be reasonably happy with. But they do phones in the same nonsensical way that they've always done them. Who on earth thought that you should have different profiles? Do you know how many old people I meet who know how to change their ringers on their Nokia phones? None. Nokia doesn't seem to take an interest in knowing what people want, and that's why they fail so epicly.

RIM basically has gone to the enterprise and asked what's important to you and how can we bend over while counting our money? Steve took Apple and said how can we be the centre of our customers lives and then get out of the way? Say what you will about Palm but looking at WebOS shows that they do care about how people use their phones. That's why these three are doing well. Android is somewhere between Nokia and Apple, Google's said how do you use the net and what can we do for you, but they haven't put as much thought into who's using their phone or what would make sense for how to have people do things.
     
Eug
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Jan 13, 2010, 11:22 AM
 
Nokia in 2010 reminds me of Apple in the early 90s.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jan 13, 2010, 12:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Nokia in 2010 reminds me of Apple in the early 90s.
Beige products with a rainbow coloured logo?
     
Eug
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Jan 13, 2010, 01:58 PM
 
Yes of course. What else could it be?
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jan 13, 2010, 02:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Yes of course. What else could it be?
John Scully?

Or wait, do you mean Nokia's current smartphones are like the newton? I have to disagree, the Newton will kick the ass of most Nokia's.
     
Eug
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Jan 13, 2010, 02:50 PM
 
I meant that Nokia has been stuck in the same mode in terms of design and functionality for the past 5 years now. Nothing from them seems very innovative anymore... sort of like Apple under John Scully in the early 90s.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jan 13, 2010, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I meant that Nokia has been stuck in the same mode in terms of design and functionality for the past 5 years now. Nothing from them seems very innovative anymore... sort of like Apple under John Scully in the early 90s.
I know I know, geez.

The difference is Apple in the 80's was a great company that was innovative. For me Nokia was nothing ever close to that. They had some nice LOOKING phones but have they ever really created a huge stur in the industry with an amazing product or just fashion phones and cheap ones for grandma?

For the last 10 years I avoided them because Nokia's all had some of the worst battery life on any phone on the market. I remember equal phones would get 4x the battery life of the best Nokia.

I had their $700 top of the line slider back in 1999 and the battery lasted 1 hour talk and it didn't even text. My friends $200 phones lasted days and could SMS.

Screw Nokia and that Symbian OS they use. 2 terrible things that are so far behind they need to disappear.
     
turtle777
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Jan 13, 2010, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
The difference is Apple in the 80's was a great company that was innovative. For me Nokia was nothing ever close to that. They had some nice LOOKING phones but have they ever really created a huge stur in the industry with an amazing product or just fashion phones and cheap ones for grandma?
I disagree.

Nokia was quite innovative in the 90s. Their user interface was far superior to all other makers and brands.
They just got stuck there.

Insofar, the comparison to Apple is not too bad.

-t
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jan 13, 2010, 04:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
The problem is that Nokia didn't really see the advent of the Smartphone, their offerings still compete best against things like the old Palm OS based Treos, and not really well against platforms like iPhone OS, or Android.
I think their other problem is they have too many damn phones (like apple in the 90s eug). They sell $1000 phones which make you think you are hot shit but they also sell super crappy candybar phones to 3rd worlds or cheapskates. Not really a brand image I want to proudly buy into. Not to mention a company with 50 different phones all with small differences and inconstant designs, interfaces all make inventory hell and creates a ton of market confusion.

Blackberry is in the same boat as they have so many different models some GMS, some with Wifi, some without, no touchscreens except one model etc. What the hell one do I get!?
     
Eug
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Jan 13, 2010, 04:08 PM
 
Yeah, in the late 90s, Nokia was my favourite.

For example, the Nokia 6190 was innovative in that you could have both analogue and digital in the same phone without having a giant phone and sucking the battery dry while you were in the city with digital, since the analogue component was removable.

There's nothing wrong with selling cheap phones, to expand their market reach. In fact, that's exactly what Apple did in the MP3 player world with the introduction of the iPod shuffle.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jan 13, 2010, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I disagree.

Nokia was quite innovative in the 90s. Their user interface was far superior to all other makers and brands.
They just got stuck there.
-t
Not that I disagree as I only got into Nokia in the late 90's but which product was so impressive? Did it create a wave in the industry as a whole new device or was it just the best of the worst?
     
turtle777
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Jan 13, 2010, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Not that I disagree as I only got into Nokia in the late 90's but which product was so impressive? Did it create a wave in the industry as a whole new device or was it just the best of the worst?
Yes, it was a benchmark, but no, it didn't create a whole new device.

Compared to products like Siemens or Ericsson, Nokia was a pleasure to use. You didn't need to read a manual, and if you knew how to use one, you knew how to use them all.

They were also built pretty robust, and didn't crash a lot.

-t
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jan 13, 2010, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Yes, it was a benchmark, but no, it didn't create a whole new device.

Compared to products like Siemens or Ericsson, Nokia was a pleasure to use. You didn't need to read a manual, and if you knew how to use one, you knew how to use them all.

They were also built pretty robust, and didn't crash a lot.

-t
Ok but what are you talking about exactly? Those little list interfaces on candybar phones? Uh they were ok i guess but since they didn't do much it shouldn't be much of an issue to begin with.

I remember by early 2001 sony pretty much had the lead on interface and battery life.

Right now I say next to Apple the best OS is Palm but they company might not last a year and the hardware sucks. After that Android (again with bla hardware). Everything else is a joke from symbian to those one off interfaces on LG's and Samsung. Windows isn't even a consideration.

BB better get their ass in gear and make the 6.0 OS a total re-write as it is still a Java OS based on the 90's model. No way they slow, non-touch friendly OS will be able to compete for another year.
     
turtle777
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Jan 13, 2010, 04:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Ok but what are you talking about exactly? Those little list interfaces on candybar phones? Uh they were ok i guess but since they didn't do much it shouldn't be much of an issue to begin with.
Yes, candybar phone "list" interfaces.

I'm only brining this up because there was the notion that Nokia has never done anything right. This is not true. They did it right more than 10 years ago, and then got off track.

-t
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jan 13, 2010, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Yes, candybar phone "list" interfaces.

I'm only brining this up because there was the notion that Nokia has never done anything right. This is not true. They did it right more than 10 years ago, and then got off track.

-t
Ok fine but just because they got one tiny thing right once 10 years ago doesn't put them on the same level as Apple in the 80's IMO.
     
jokell82
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Jan 14, 2010, 09:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Not that I disagree as I only got into Nokia in the late 90's but which product was so impressive? Did it create a wave in the industry as a whole new device or was it just the best of the worst?
I was working in the cell phone industry during that time, and the 5160 and 6160 were both very impressive phones. Back then whenever anyone wanted a phone, it was between one of those or a Star-Tac.

All glory to the hypnotoad.
     
Eug
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Jan 14, 2010, 09:49 AM
 
Yep. The 6160 is the same 6190 I was talking about, except not GSM. The 51xx series was a lower end model.
     
imitchellg5  (op)
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Jan 14, 2010, 11:39 AM
 
Now Kodak wants to sue Apple, for reasons I don't understand.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 14, 2010, 11:46 AM
 
They have money.
     
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Jan 18, 2010, 10:37 AM
 
This is the problem with the patent system. Too many companies feel entitled to markets they helped create, and they think that anyone entering said markets is responsible for propping up their business model.
     
   
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