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Police discrimination, misconduct, Ferguson, MO, the Roman Legion, and now math??? (Page 11)
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subego
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Oct 11, 2014, 11:47 PM
 
Isn't what happens during a riot usually detached from normal thought processes?
     
Shaddim
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Oct 12, 2014, 12:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Isn't what happens during a riot usually detached from normal thought processes?
If it's an instant reaction, maybe, but not if you've been sitting around for weeks (or even months) anticipating the worst.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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subego
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Oct 12, 2014, 01:01 AM
 
I'm not sure I follow.
     
BadKosh
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Oct 12, 2014, 08:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm saying you can't claim to be color-blind while simultaneously assigning a numerical value to how many of your friends are colored. It's as contradictory as someone declaring how humble they are (and then describing how on a scale of 1-100).
"ABOUT" (insert number) not counting either.
     
Shaddim
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Oct 12, 2014, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not sure I follow.
People can't use the excuse "we just went crazy" if they've been expecting a certain result, by then it just becomes an excuse for shitty behavior. My little girl throws tantrums and throws her toys, but she's 2 and a half. It's absurd for adults to trash and loot their neighbors' homes and property, down here it's just a good way to get yourself killed. Go after the city leaders and city hall, I guarantee that if you tar & feather them and destroy the gov't buildings, they'll finally get the point.
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subego
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Oct 12, 2014, 01:17 PM
 
I apologize if I'm still not getting you here.

What I'm trying to say is aren't most riots either organic in origin or provoked by a few bad actors?

IOW, how much thought put is into goals or victory conditions?*



*The bad actors will have a goal in mind, but since they're, well, bad actors, they don't have a community positive approach to starting a riot.
( Last edited by subego; Oct 12, 2014 at 01:49 PM. )
     
OAW
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Oct 12, 2014, 02:11 PM
 
It's pretty striking that there are those who can only speak of "riots" when this is what's really going on ...





And for the record, all of this isn't really even about Mike Brown. It's about that little man right there in the foreground. And all the other little men just like him who we would like to have the opportunity to grow up and be productive and responsible citizens of this country. You know ... without being gunned down over BS by those who are supposed to be protecting them.

OAW

PS: The symbolism of holding the protest in front of the Old Court House is remarkable. Considering how our ancestors were bought and sold on those very steps.
     
Shaddim
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Oct 12, 2014, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I apologize if I'm still not getting you here.

What I'm trying to say is aren't most riots either organic in origin or provoked by a few bad actors?

IOW, there isn't much thought put into goals or victory conditions?*



*The bad actors will have a goal in mind, but since they're, well, bad actors, they don't have a community positive approach to starting a riot.
I think most riots are perpetrated by boobs who are looking to loot and pillage, because stealing and causing general mayhem is exciting/fun for them. It has little to do with the cause or situation, it's an excuse to steal and destroy, and generally as a whole, we primates dig that kind of thing*. So while it's a conditioned response, I don't see it as something that as a society we should accept. It's like getting mad at your postal carrier and retaliating by taking a big shit in your own mailbox.


*Except for the Bonobo, who have socially evolved beyond accepting that type of behavior, though they can and will isolate and punish specific members of their communities who break the rules.
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subego
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Oct 12, 2014, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
It's pretty striking that there are those who can only speak of "riots" when this is what's really going on ...
As one half of the discussion in question, I feel that's a really cheap shot.

I'm standing here in a robe, and haven't read the news yet.
     
subego
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Oct 12, 2014, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I think most riots are perpetrated by boobs who are looking to loot and pillage, because stealing and causing general mayhem is exciting/fun for them. It has little to do with the cause or situation, it's an excuse to steal and destroy, and generally as a whole, we primates dig that kind of thing*. So while it's a conditioned response, I don't see it as something that as a society we should accept. It's like getting mad at your postal carrier and retaliating by taking a big shit in your own mailbox.


*Except for the Bonobo, who have socially evolved beyond accepting that type of behavior, though they can and will isolate and punish specific members of their communities who break the rules.
I wouldn't for a moment consider it acceptable, I'm only saying the psychology of riots is such that channeling it into something more "useful" (tomatoes at city hall) isn't really possible.

To put it another way, riots aren't planned, they're provoked, whether that provocation is caused by police or criminals.
     
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Oct 12, 2014, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As one half of the discussion in question, I feel that's a really cheap shot.

I'm standing here in a robe, and haven't read the news yet.
That wasn't directed at you or anyone else here personally. It was more of an "in general" type of comment. There seem to be a lot of people who see what they want to see and hear what they want to here when it comes to to the Ferguson protests. People who latch onto the actions of a few bad actors like a pit bull and completely lose sight of the bigger picture of what's going on. All over the internet and in "real life". Believe me I hear it quite often around these parts ... especially from those who rarely venture forth from their far-flung suburbs. My apologies if you thought I was talking about you. I truly meant no offense.

OAW

In the future, please know that if I'm ever directing a post at you or anyone else I will [quote] or ^^^^ your post.
( Last edited by OAW; Oct 12, 2014 at 05:03 PM. )
     
Shaddim
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Oct 12, 2014, 04:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
As one half of the discussion in question, I feel that's a really cheap shot.

I'm standing here in a robe, and haven't read the news yet.
It isn't even worth a reply, frankly.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
I wouldn't for a moment consider it acceptable, I'm only saying the psychology of riots is such that channeling it into something more "useful" (tomatoes at city hall) isn't really possible.

To put it another way, riots aren't planned, they're provoked, whether that provocation is caused by police or criminals.
I think in our society they are planned, most of the time they're sparked by people who are looking forward to them (and those folks know they can generally get away with it).
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subego
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Oct 12, 2014, 04:28 PM
 
I'm not really disagreeing with you. You can read "provoked by a bad actor" as "planned by a bad actor", but that still leaves things like tomatoes at city hall pretty much outside the realm of likelihood, no?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 13, 2014, 10:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
"Worthless"? I'm giving suggestions, because it's stupid to trash/loot your own neighborhood.
It's worthless because it'll satisfy no one who is looking for a reason to hate on the protestors.

I don't want riots, but I'm sure as hell not going to write-off the stance of tens of thousands because of the actions of a hundred. I mean, we're not supposed to judge the majority by the actions of the minority, right? At least, that's what I hear and when it's idiots with guns.

Further, in a country where people riot because their sports team won, I'll give a teensy bit of leeway to a peoples who are fed up with perceived social injustices. But that's just me.
     
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Oct 13, 2014, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Further, in a country where people riot because their sports team won, I'll give a teensy bit of leeway to a peoples who are fed up with perceived social injustices. But that's just me.
This!

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Oct 13, 2014, 11:15 AM
 


More than 1,000 peaceful protesters staged a massive sit-in at the heart of St. Louis University’s campus early Monday morning, culminating multiple acts of civil disobedience throughout the city – including blocking an intersection by playing games and jumping rope – on the same night as raw frustrations from activists bubbled to the surface in a public forum.

Police blocked off roads and readied officers with riot gear, but were unable to curb protests, which parted ways in separate groups marching in different directions for hours, only later to come together once again at the gates of the university.

It’s the fifth night of protests in and around Ferguson and St. Louis, Missouri, an area that’s become an epicenter of civil disobedience since an unarmed black teen, Michael Brown, was shot two months ago. Protesters planned a “Weekend of Resistance” to mark the anniversary. After another black teen, Vonderrit Myers, Jr. was shot last week during a [alleged] gunfight with an off-duty police officer, the events took on a renewed urgency.
St. Louis protesters stage massive peaceful sit-in | MSNBC

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Shaddim
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Oct 13, 2014, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's worthless because it'll satisfy no one who is looking for a reason to hate on the protestors.

I don't want riots, but I'm sure as hell not going to write-off the stance of tens of thousands because of the actions of a hundred. I mean, we're not supposed to judge the majority by the actions of the minority, right? At least, that's what I hear and when it's idiots with guns.

Further, in a country where people riot because their sports team won, I'll give a teensy bit of leeway to a peoples who are fed up with perceived social injustices. But that's just me.
I believe we're largely disagreeing on motivation at this point. I don't believe it's due to desperation, (regardless of race) they just like to tear shit up and loot. If it were a situation where those affected wanted actual change they'd go for the source(s). Think about this. Could you imagine how effective it would be if a flood of masked people went to city hall, tore it down, then tarred and feathered the officials who'd wrong them? It would only need to happen once in this country, and grievances would be addressed overnight. I'm not saying it would automatically fix the problems, but at least they'd take them seriously. If the gov't (career politicians) has no fear whatsoever of the people, they won't have any respect, either.

To sum up: Don't tear up your own stuff and deface your community, that's what politicians are for.
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Shaddim
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Oct 13, 2014, 12:23 PM
 
When you're blocking roads (not allowing emergency services and the like to move through) it's no longer a peaceful protest.
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Oct 13, 2014, 01:33 PM
 
I'll just note that the article made no mention whatsoever of emergency services not being allowed through.

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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 13, 2014, 02:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I believe we're largely disagreeing on motivation at this point. I don't believe it's due to desperation, (regardless of race) they just like to tear shit up and loot.
How can you come to this conclusion? What percentage of protestors are even "tearing up shit and loot[ing]?"

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
if a flood of masked people went to city hall
They'd get tear gassed long before they got there. Same if they open carried.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
When you're blocking roads (not allowing emergency services and the like to move through) it's no longer a peaceful protest.
In this thread people forget the concept of civil disobedience.
     
Shaddim
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Oct 13, 2014, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
How can you come to this conclusion? What percentage of protestors are even "tearing up shit and loot[ing]?"
We were talking about rioters not protestors in general.

They'd get tear gassed long before they got there. Same if they open carried.
Not if you just show up in the middle of the night from every direction. I'm not talking about marching down the road in force.

In this thread people forget the concept of civil disobedience.
and others don't understand how it can get others killed, making the demonstrators no better than those they're protesting. This is purely hypothetical, but if I had a loved one dying in the back of a vehicle I'm driving, and demonstrators are blocking the roads and won't let us pass, there's going to be a lot of people wearing fresh tire tracks between there and the ER.
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Oct 13, 2014, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
This is purely hypothetical ...
And therein lies the point.

OAW
     
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Oct 13, 2014, 03:05 PM
 
All you have to do is listen to the "Obamaphone woman" to get an idea of the mindset of the protestors. Unread, gullible, overly emotional, fed a bunch of lies and phrased to get them angry. This is what racist jackasses like Al Sharpton and Jesse jackson, and even that fool Farrakhan do for a living. Stir up trouble. The kind of trouble that gets the blacks a bad rep. They are doing it to themselves. ML King was right in his peaceful non-violent protests, with intelligent, reasonable suggestions. Its a shame so many white racists were too stupid to listen. Its a shame our own idiot president is a racist JA.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 13, 2014, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
We were talking about rioters not protestors in general.
Yeah, and why is that? Why are the rioters so noteworthy?

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
and others don't understand how it can get others killed, making the demonstrators no better than those they're protesting.
Possibly slowing down medical aid = trigger happy racist cops. Oh, ok.

If one life is put into danger by civil disobedience – that's a bridge too far. Meanwhile, if one innocent teen, or one innocent african-american gets killed by overzealous cops, well that's the cost of thug society. Pull up your pants!

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
This is purely hypothetical, but if I had a loved one dying in the back of a vehicle I'm driving, and demonstrators are blocking the roads and won't let us pass, there's going to be a lot of people wearing fresh tire tracks between there and the ER.
And I wouldn't blame you one bit. I can't play ref and tell you or society which goal is more worthy, the life of a loved one in the here and now innumerable victims of police brutality in the future. What I can tell you is both are worthy of bending the law to get the situation the attention and resolution it deserves.
     
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Oct 13, 2014, 04:13 PM
 
I know anytime a racially charged situation arises in this country our good friends on the right reflexively go there, but for the record Sharpton, Jackson, and Farrakhan have absolutely nothing to do with the protests going on in STL right now.

OAW
     
Shaddim
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Oct 13, 2014, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Yeah, and why is that? Why are the rioters so noteworthy?
Because tearing up your own community is stupid (slightly more so than blockading public roads).

Possibly slowing down medical aid = trigger happy racist cops. Oh, ok.

If one life is put into danger by civil disobedience – that's a bridge too far. Meanwhile, if one innocent teen, or one innocent african-american gets killed by overzealous cops, well that's the cost of thug society. Pull up your pants!
I've never said that (and it's pretty damned trollish). How many damned times do I need to condemn the wrongful actions of those officers? Should I carry a scorecard?

And I wouldn't blame you one bit. I can't play ref and tell you or society which goal is more worthy, the life of a loved one in the here and now innumerable victims of police brutality in the future. What I can tell you is both are worthy of bending the law to get the situation the attention and resolution it deserves.
The difference is, I would (rightfully) be charged with vehicular homicide.
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Oct 13, 2014, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
All you have to do is listen to the "Obamaphone woman" to get an idea of the mindset of the protestors. Unread, gullible, overly emotional, fed a bunch of lies and phrased to get them angry.
Wow. 3 racist stereotypes in one sentence! I suppose Dr. Cornel West here epitomizes all of that huh?



This young lady as well huh?



A slideshow of the diversity that comprises the Ferguson protestors. Clearly it is not solely "the blacks".

The Faces of #FergusonOctober | RiverfrontTimes.com

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Oct 13, 2014 at 04:32 PM. )
     
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Oct 13, 2014, 05:28 PM
 
There are simultaneous protests happening at several different locations in the STL metro area. One in Ferguson. One at St. Louis University. Another at STL City Hall. Major intersections are being shut down right down the street from where Mike Brown was killed. Another protest at a mall in the Frontenac area which is aptly described as one of wealthiest suburbs in the area. We are witnessing a very organized effort that is keeping law enforcement off balance as they try to respond all over the the metro area.

Nineteen arrested in two separate protests in Ferguson on 'Moral Monday' : STLToday.com

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Oct 13, 2014 at 05:44 PM. )
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 14, 2014, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Because tearing up your own community is stupid
But it's a small percentage of protesters and on top of that how many arrested were from out of town? Do you demand perfection from your protesters? Is that realistic?

We live in a country where the right to bear arms is vigorously defended and the fact that bad actors will use guns is the price we pay for freedom. Why don't protesters exercising their right to free speech get the same leeway regarding bad actors?


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I've never said that (and it's pretty damned trollish).
No, you didn't, but people in this thread who agree with your viewpoint are.


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The difference is, I would (rightfully) be charged with vehicular homicide.
Well, let's not pretend these are comparable situations. Vehicular homicide requires consideration and action. What would the protesters be charged with? First off, it's not a conscious decision. Second, how would you prove they were culpable; Their crime is one of inaction. Third, who would you charge? Fourth, how would you even sentence them? Do 100 people get a 20 year sentence divided between them, etc.?
     
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Oct 14, 2014, 09:54 AM
 
Foxhall police encounter caught on video and the interaction is fascinating - The Washington Post

Yes, we've reached the point where we're overanalyzing things, but one part did stand out to me:
Westby then grabs Stucky by the hand, helps him up and makes the decision to leave the scene with him, on their own. In light of the high profile incidents of police brutality recently, it’s a stunning exercise of rights that goes almost completely unchecked by the officers. As they leave, the officer says: “Ma’am. Stop.”
I feel like in a different setting the woman would be tazed and then arrested for interfering with an investigation and maybe have resisting arrest added for measure.

The balls on that one, though.
     
Shaddim
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Oct 14, 2014, 11:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
But it's a small percentage of protesters and on top of that how many arrested were from out of town? Do you demand perfection from your protesters? Is that realistic?

We live in a country where the right to bear arms is vigorously defended and the fact that bad actors will use guns is the price we pay for freedom. Why don't protesters exercising their right to free speech get the same leeway regarding bad actors?
If a person through negligence kills someone with a gun, they go to prison. So if demonstrators, through negligence (blocking important thoroughfares), contribute someone's death they should be treated the same? I agree.

No, you didn't, but people in this thread who agree with your viewpoint are.
Guilt by peripheral association is so 15th century, no one expects it.

Well, let's not pretend these are comparable situations. Vehicular homicide requires consideration and action. What would the protesters be charged with? First off, it's not a conscious decision. Second, how would you prove they were culpable; Their crime is one of inaction. Third, who would you charge? Fourth, how would you even sentence them? Do 100 people get a 20 year sentence divided between them, etc.?
Either involuntary manslaughter and criminal negligence could fit? You'd charge everyone who was willfully blocking traffic and impeding the transit of EMS services. Sentences aren't split amongst a group of offenders, everyone found guilty would be individually culpable, it would be the same as if a mob had converged on an individual and killed her.
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Oct 14, 2014, 04:03 PM
 
So the latest is that forensic evidence just released shows that Vonderitt Myers Jr had gun residue on her person consistent with shooting a gun the night he was killed.

Gunshot residue tests and ballistics evidence indicate that Vonderitt D. Myers Jr. fired a gun at a police officer before being fatally shot, police and union officials said Tuesday.

Although police officials have already said that Myers fired at least three shots at an off-duty police officer before the officer returned fire, the newly released evidence could further dispel claims by friends and family that Myers was holding a sandwich, not a gun, when he was shot. The officer, who has not been named, was working for a private security company in the Shaw neighborhood.

Myers' Oct. 8 death sparked protests in Shaw and fueled area-wide protests resulting from the Aug. 9 shooting of 18-year-old Michael Brown by a Ferguson police officer.

The Missouri Highway Patrol analysis found gunshot residue on Myers' hands, on his shirt and inside the waistband and pockets of his jeans. Police said that although gunshot residue can be present on anyone near a shooting, the results show levels consistent with Myers being the shooter, because the police officer was standing too far away.

Ballistics evidence also revealed three bullets that hit the ground where the officer was trying to take cover matched Myers' gun. A round found inside a car behind the officer was too badly damaged to be able to to match it to his gun, however, it did not match the type of bullets the officer fired, police said.
Forensic evidence shows teen shot at St. Louis officer, police say | STLToday.com

But given the constantly changing story from the STL PD people around here still smell a rat. Supposedly there was a physical struggle with the officer where a hooded sweatshirt on Myers came off. Except video footage shows he wasn't wearing a sweatshirt at all. Supposedly Myers "jumped out of bushes" and physically attacked the office. Except photo evidence where Myers was killed shows that no such bushes exist. Must have been the same bushes Trayvon Martin was hiding behind. . Now the latest version of the STL PD story makes no mention of bushes. First the gun recovered at the scene was a Ruger. Now it's a Smith & Wesson. First Myers turned around and shot at the officer. Now 3 days later he fell to the ground and shot at the officer. Needless to say, suspicions abound that the weapons "found" at the scene and the residue on Myer's person is a plant.

Why does the St. Louis PD keep changing their story about the killing of VonDerrit Myers? | DailyKos.com

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Oct 14, 2014, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
If a person through negligence kills someone with a gun, they go to prison. So if demonstrators, through negligence (blocking important thoroughfares), contribute someone's death they should be treated the same? I agree.
If you can prove it, probably. (i.e., somebody dies and the EMS had no other route to take. If they had an alternative route and knew about the highway shut down, ironically the EMT's might be at fault).


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Guilt by peripheral association is so 15th century, no one expects it.
I wasn't accusing you of guilt by association. Sometimes I speak to the larger audience (the thread), or to trends I see nationally of people who espouse these views. Sorry for the confusion.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Either involuntary manslaughter and criminal negligence could fit?
I don't know, I'm certainly not a lawyer. Involuntary manslaughter was certainly my first thought.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Sentences aren't split amongst a group of offenders, everyone found guilty would be individually culpable, it would be the same as if a mob had converged on an individual and killed her.
That seems inequitable. Standing on the freeway is not the same as willfully killing someone.

You know, all this talk of mobs and such made me think of the Black Friday death of a walmart worker when he was run over by the shoppers. No charges filed. And really, I wonder how they would have charged and sentenced anyone. And that was a death due to actions, rather than inactions.
     
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Oct 14, 2014, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
But given the constantly changing story from the STL PD people around here still smell a rat. Supposedly there was a physical struggle with the officer where a hooded sweatshirt on Myers came off. Except video footage shows he wasn't wearing a sweatshirt at all. Supposedly Myers "jumped out of bushes" and physically attacked the office. Except photo evidence where Myers was killed shows that no such bushes exist. Must have been the same bushes Trayvon Martin was hiding behind. . Now the latest version of the STL PD story makes no mention of bushes. First the gun recovered at the scene was a Ruger. Now it's a Smith & Wesson. First Myers turned around and shot at the officer. Now 3 days later he fell to the ground and shot at the officer. Needless to say, suspicions abound that the weapons "found" at the scene and the residue on Myer's person is a plant.
Well, witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, so I wouldn't be surprised if an officer changed his story over time, particularly if the people around him try to 'help' him. I obviously believe police corruption exists, but unless you want to enlist the medical examiner in that corruption as well by finding residue that doesn't exist, I'll have to side with chances being the victim did have a gun, even if it was misidentified at the start.

If the family really believes he didn't fire, they need to have an independent autopsy done.
     
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Oct 14, 2014, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Well, witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, so I wouldn't be surprised if an officer changed his story over time, particularly if the people around him try to 'help' him. I obviously believe police corruption exists, but unless you want to enlist the medical examiner in that corruption as well by finding residue that doesn't exist, I'll have to side with chances being the victim did have a gun, even if it was misidentified at the start.

If the family really believes he didn't fire, they need to have an independent autopsy done.
I'm inclined to believe that the medical examiner presented findings based upon what was presented to him/her. Of course, the opportunity exists for a dead body in police custody to be tampered with prior to the medical examiner ever seeing it. That being said, if I had to bet money on it I'm leaning 80/20 that this kid fired on the officer. And if that's the case then it is what it is. Of course, the question still remains ... why did the officer pursue these young men when no crime had been reported in the first place? The story of one of them "holding his pants as if he had a gun" is total BS. Any cop working the streets of STL knows fully well that a guy holding his pants is doing so because he was sagging. Which, for the record, makes it more difficult to carry a weapon because the pants are not around your waist where you would tuck a weapon. And the non-existent hoodie and bushes just smacks of the police trying to make the situation seem more ominous than it was to justify the officer firing 17 shots. And it's precisely because of those type of shenanigans that people don't trust the police around here.

Moreover having STL PD Union President Jeff Roorda holding a press conference in support of this officer talking about "Vonderrit Myers was no angel." doesn't inspire much confidence ... especially when he was fired himself for falsifying police reports.

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( Last edited by OAW; Oct 14, 2014 at 06:15 PM. )
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Oct 15, 2014, 09:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
The story of one of them "holding his pants as if he had a gun" is total BS. Any cop working the streets of STL knows fully well that a guy holding his pants is doing so because he was sagging. Which, for the record, makes it more difficult to carry a weapon because the pants are not around your waist where you would tuck a weapon. And the non-existent hoodie and bushes just smacks of the police trying to make the situation seem more ominous than it was to justify the officer firing 17 shots. And it's precisely because of those type of shenanigans that people don't trust the police around here.
This could be a case of being right for the wrong reasons. Much like how stop and frisk works. Yeah, sometimes you'll find contraband. Doesn't justify profiling, however. You'd find contraband if you stopped everyone under any category: People who wear nikes, people who wear red shirts, people who are blonde, people with purses, etc.
     
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Oct 15, 2014, 12:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This could be a case of being right for the wrong reasons. Much like how stop and frisk works. Yeah, sometimes you'll find contraband. Doesn't justify profiling, however. You'd find contraband if you stopped everyone under any category: People who wear nikes, people who wear red shirts, people who are blonde, people with purses, etc.
… and usually you stop and frisk easy targets: you search teenagers for weed instead of investment bankers for cocaine
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Oct 15, 2014, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
… and usually you stop and frisk easy targets: you search teenagers for weed instead of investment bankers for cocaine
Lord, don't get us started on that.
     
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Oct 15, 2014, 12:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Lord, don't get us started on that.
Why not? I find cocaine and investment bankers much more dangerous than your average stoner
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Oct 15, 2014, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Why not? I find cocaine and investment bankers much more dangerous than your average stoner
So does anyone with a brain.
     
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Oct 15, 2014, 01:28 PM
 
One Waller, Texas, police officer has been placed on paid administrative leave pending an investigation into his seemingly unprovoked use of pepper spray on a student, KTRK reports.

Officer Adolphus Cannon is being investigated by the Waller Police Department regarding the incident, which took place Oct. 6. According to the report, officers were responding to a disturbance at an apartment complex near Prairie View A&M when student Bobby Hall started recording the event with his camera.

“I’m a mass communication major here at our school," Hall told the news station, saying that he always has his camera and records events because that’s just what he does.

In the video, the officer can be seen pepper-spraying the senior.
Texas Cop Pepper-Sprays Student Who Was Recording Him (VIDEO) - The Root

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Oct 15, 2014, 01:30 PM
 
Wrong or not, Adolphus Cannon is a god-tier name.
     
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Oct 15, 2014, 02:45 PM
 
Why don't cops understand that getting filmed is legal? All I can suggest is union cops are stupid by nature. Its not like is hasn't been in the news more than a few times.
     
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Oct 15, 2014, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why don't cops understand that getting filmed is legal?
Because they're no smarter than the average person, with a tinge of being above the law to boot.
     
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Oct 16, 2014, 04:50 PM
 
Another insightful piece about the proliferation of "municipalities" in STL County and how they prey upon their poor, and most often black residents:

If you’ve read my report, you might remember that Bel-Ridge is the town of 2,700 people that in its budget said it planned to make about $450 this year for every resident. It’s also the town that fined residents for not subscribing to the only authorized municipal trash service, and that in the early 2000s was caught manually changing a green light to red in order to nab unsuspecting motorists. The town is 83 percent black.

In another Tweet, Menschel says the courtrooms feel like revenue factories. This was my impression, too. The courts felt like assembly lines of despair. It’s important to remember that the protests in Ferguson are about much more than whatever happened between Officer Darren Wilson and Mike Brown. They’re the product of a geography and system of municipal government that were unquestionably built on a foundation of racism. St. Louis County is overloaded with municipalities because white people kept creating new towns in their efforts to get away from black people. Now those towns have courthouses, police departments and a host of civil servants. All of them have to be paid. And extracting fines from people has become a critical way to raise the revenue to pay them. The poorer the municipality, the more reliant it will be on municipal court revenue. The poorer the citizen, the less likely it is that they can find an attorney to help them negotiate the paperwork labyrinth of local ordinances, confusingly worded court notices, and dozens and dozens of courthouses, each with their own rules and hours.

Pundits and commentators have suggested that these concerns are all overblown. After all, who could object to car registration laws, insurance requirements or speed limits? (For a well-argued but I think ultimately flawed example, see Heather Mac Donald from the Manhattan Institute here.)

This all misses the point. When a local government’s very existence depends on its citizens breaking the law — when fines from ordinance violations are written into city budgets for the upcoming year as a primary or even the main expected source of revenue — the relationship between the government and the governed is not one of public officials serving their constituents, but of preying off of them. When the primary mission of a police department isn’t to protect citizens but to extract money from them, and when the cops themselves don’t look like, live near or have much in common with the people from whom they’re extracting that money, you get cops who start to see the people they’re supposed to be serving not as citizens with rights, but as potential sources of revenue, as lawbreakers to be caught. The residents of these towns then see cops not as public servants drawn from their own community to enforce the laws and keep the peace, but as outsiders brought in to harass them, whose salaries are drawn from that harassment. The same goes for the judges and prosecutors, who also rarely live in the towns that employ them.
Why we need to fix St. Louis County - The Washington Post

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Oct 16, 2014, 06:38 PM
 
The latest from the Mike Brown grand jury proceedings:

In the latest account of the Brown killing, the witness said he saw Wilson’s police SUV stop near Brown and Johnson as they were walking in the middle of Canfield Drive. He said he heard Wilson say something to them, but not what. He said Wilson drove past them, then backed up.

The witness said he had been on the right side of the police SUV and did not have a clear view of what happened on the opposite, driver’s side. “There was a tussle going on,” he said, adding that he believes he saw Wilson’s hat fly off.

He then heard a shot and saw Brown run, followed by Wilson. He said Wilson aimed his handgun at Brown and yelled: “Stop! Stop! Stop!”

The witness said Brown did stop, mumbled something he could not clearly hear and took a step toward Wilson.


“When he stepped foot on that street, the officer told him to stop again, and he fired three shots,” the witness recalled. “When he (Brown) got hit, he staggered like, ‘Oh,’ and his body moved. Then he looked down.

“His hands were up like this (he gestures with arms out to the side and palms upward), and he was looking at the officer and was coming toward him trying to keep his feet and stand up. The officer took a few steps back and yelled, ‘Stop,’ again, and Michael was trying to stay on his feet.

“He was 20 to 25 feet from officer, and after he started staggering, he (Wilson) let off four more rounds. As he was firing those last rounds, Michael was on his way down. We were thinking, ‘Oh my God, oh my God, brother, stop, stop.’ He was already on his way down when he fired those last shots.”

The witness said Wilson didn’t have to kill Brown. “It went from zero to 100 like that, in the blink of an eye. ... What transpired to us, in my eyesight, was murder. Down outright murder.”
New Witness In Michael Brown Shooting: It Was “Out Downright Murder” | Global Grind

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Oct 17, 2014, 09:13 AM
 
He took a step towards him from 20 feet away. Death sentence justified.
     
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Oct 17, 2014, 12:03 PM
 
^^^^

After already being shot mind you.

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Oct 17, 2014, 04:17 PM
 
A woman who criticized police on Twitter says an officer called her boss in an attempt to get her fired, so she filed a formal complaint “to return the favor.”

The officer doesn’t deny placing a call to the woman’s boss. His union says he was within his rights. The police department says it is investigating.


Leigh Maibes, a real estate agent who tweets under the alias “Short Stack” and has been active on social media during the Ferguson protests, posted a link Wednesday to a YouTube video of a phone conversation with Officer Keith Novara.

During the conversation, Maibes questions why Novara called and texted her boss regarding her involvement and Twitter posts about police tactics used during protests.

“To me this feels like intimidation,” said Maibes, who sells real estate for a RE/MAX brokerage on South Hampton Avenue. No one there responded to a message seeking comment.

Novara is heard saying, “I let them know, yes.”

Novara says that he was giving the broker a “heads up” and communicating with him as part of his responsibilities as a South Patrol officer. Novara adds that he was warning Maibes’ boss that the phones at the business might be “blowing up,” from people upset about her tweets.

“Why did you think it was your place to do that?” Maibes asks.

“Some of the tweets that I was seeing were inciteful,” Novara said. “That’s why I just wanted to let him know.”

It’s unclear what tweets were of particular concern.

Maibes did not respond to multiple messages on Twitter seeking comment. Novara also did not return a voice message left on his cellphone.

Within hours of the posting of the video, other Twitter users posted Novara’s cell number, photo and email address.

On Thursday, Novara had retained lawyer Neil J. Bruntrager through the St. Louis Police Officers Association. The police department confirmed that Novara was under investigation. He has not been suspended.

Bruntrager said he was unaware of any other case in which an officer had called a protester’s employer.
St. Louis police officer under investigation following call to protester's employer : STLToday.com

This is the STL PD we are talking about. Not surprising in the least.

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Oct 17, 2014, 04:27 PM
 
Yeah, he was doing it out of concern for her employer. Sure.
     
 
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