[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Mithras:
But I strongly feel the immigrants who do so should be legal, so that they're afforded the same protections as American workers. Otherwise they're here at the mercy of the employer, and can be deported as soon as they try to organize for better conditions, or just look sideways at someone.

So the answer then is to force them to stay in worse conditions in the country from which they came rather than accept that some will be here illegally and allow them a chance to better themselves in the process?

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Actually, if the only way the dealer can afford to give his vehicles away for next to nothing is by employing illegal labor, then he is gaining an unfair - and illegal - competitive advantage over those companies who have higher costs to recoup for regular wages/social security.

What you're advocating isn't capitalism; it's mob tactics.

-s*

So, let's move the dealership over the border instead where there's a fat chance in hell of any of those workers ever getting a chance to improve their lives.

Man, you people in your ivory towers kill me.

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
So the answer then is to force them to stay in worse conditions in the country from which they came rather than accept that some will be here illegally and allow them a chance to better themselves in the process?

Who about crossing the goddamn border like they're supposed to?!

[Athens]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
There is no documentation to reference on the subject of undocumented illegal immigrants and their income levels.

Personal experience, including several discussions with illegal immigrants employed in the local construction trade, has formed my opinion. Residential construction is an interest of mine. I have a working knowledge of labor rates associated with it. When I said $40,000/yr, I was being conservative. That's more like an average wage for skilled labor. Brick & block, roofing, concrete finishing, drywall, plumbing, and electrical are among the 'skilled' trades. That is, jobs which require months of experience to become proficient at. The lowest wage for these 'skilled' workers is about $15/hr ($32,500/yr).

There is no such thing as a 40 hour week in construction. You have a lot of 80 hour weeks and you have some zero hour weeks. 50 hours would be an average workwork - like most other folks in the workplace. $40,000/yr is not a lot of money for working 50hr weeks with drywall - I can say that with absolute certainty.

I don't understand why you're so hung up on how much money illegal immigrants are making. I bet you can't even tell me why it matters one way or the other.

Your other points were weak and fell by the wayside miles ago. Yet you stick to the lamest point you made - to the bitter end - only to find out that it's the easiest one for me to refute.

Get some rest, Simey. It's a bad day when you get beat down by an amateur like myself.

Actually 40 000 is prob a good number, not like they are paying any taxes on it, and its prob all under the table too.

[Athens]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Imagine the horror you would have expressed at the original immigrants' refusal to learn the language of and assimilate to all the various original Native American tribes that were here.

What kills me as someone pointed out is how English speaking people expect everything to be in English when you travel overseas. You think foreigners expect to see everything labelled in their native language when going to the US? The world doesn't exist for the benefit of Americans or their language. If someone immigrates to American and refuses to give up their language and culture I'd say America is much better and richer for that.

I can't believe such racist tripe still exists today in the world. No wonder your nation is in a downward spiral.

I didn't know that the Natives had a COUNTRY with a OFFICAL Language and a immigration proccess?

And that part about English speaking people expecting everything to be english, change that it Americans expect. Most english speaking people dont expect that.

[Athens]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
Are you willing to pick vegetables yourself for less than minimum wage? Should I have to pay higher prices for my apples because only citizens should be allowed to pick them?

Illegals fill many of the worst or undesirable jobs in just about every industrialized country on this planet because sadly the inhabitants of those countries (such as Americans like yourself) are unwilling to fill thoe jobs.

Why not apply this to Cars, houses, and all products, cheap labor makes them cheaper. OH but how will people afford them since they dont make enoug to buy it.


BTW what the hell is a SSN card?

[Athens]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
So the answer then is to force them to stay in worse conditions in the country from which they came rather than accept that some will be here illegally and allow them a chance to better themselves in the process?

Is it really better if it brings the entire country down to lower standards?

[Spliffdaddy]

SSN = Social Security Number

Something legal workers are required to have.

Illegal workers are encouraged to just forge any documents as needed.

[Mithras]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
So the answer then is to force them to stay in worse conditions in the country from which they came rather than accept that some will be here illegally and allow them a chance to better themselves in the process?

No, they should come here. I welcome a generous immigration policy. I just think all workers in the U.S. should be afforded legal protections, the right to unionize, etc.

Some, including Spliffdaddy, have a kind of xenophobic air, and oppose not just illegal immigration, but immigration in general (Why should they come when there are Americans that don't have a job...). I vehemently disagree with that, but I also disagree with perpetuating an undocumented underclass.

[Athens]

Here is a really kicker to our stupid immigration system. A Young Iranian woman who has been here for years, worked hard, was a module employee with no criminal record and every one else in her family already have Canadian Citizenship, and she is deported. Yet this other dude who is a convicted criminal for street racing causing death is allow to stay over compassionate grounds. That�s totally ****ed up. We make it hard for good people to immigrate, deport the good people and keep the criminals. This has me choked.

[SimpleLife]

Originally posted by Athens:
Here is a really kicker to our stupid immigration system. A Young Iranian woman who has been here for years, worked hard, was a module employee with no criminal record and every one else in her family already have Canadian Citizenship, and she is deported. Yet this other dude who is a convicted criminal for street racing causing death is allow to stay over compassionate grounds. That�s totally ****ed up. We make it hard for good people to immigrate, deport the good people and keep the criminals. This has me choked.

I agree. That is quite a problem.

[Athens]

update, she was arrested in Iran and is now out on bail and have to appear again in a few weeks. She was a activist in her land for woman rights. She should never have been deported. Freaking Government.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Athens:
Is it really better if it brings the entire country down to lower standards?

So much for the good side of humanity.

I guess immigration is OK to you if the immigrant is white, wealthy, and isn't brown, black, Muslim, or non-European with blond hair, tall build, and blue eyes.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by Athens:
I didn't know that the Natives had a COUNTRY with a OFFICAL Language and a immigration proccess?

I guess you never heard of the various Indian Nations?

And that part about English speaking people expecting everything to be english, change that it Americans expect. Most english speaking people dont expect that.

Plenty of English speaking Canadians do in the places I've been out and aboot to.

English speaking people are the most arrogant when it comes to expecting foreign visitors and immigrants to adhere to their "culture." Too bad English speaking culture, if it ever existed, is in severe decline worldwide.

[MATTRESS]

Originally posted by CreepingDeth:
Who about crossing the goddamn border like they're supposed to?!

If we didn't have artificial borders then it wouldn't be a problem.

Do you think it should be illegal for inhabitants of one state to be prevented from moving to another?

We are all inhabitants of one planet and we ought to have the right to move and live where the hell we want to.

[Athens]

Originally posted by MATTRESS:
If we didn't have artificial borders then it wouldn't be a problem.

Do you think it should be illegal for inhabitants of one state to be prevented from moving to another?

We are all inhabitants of one planet and we ought to have the right to move and live where the hell we want to.

There is a reason why thier are first world, second world and third world nations. First World nations don't grow beyond what it can handle, and everything is kept in balance. But sure we could do away with borders and make every nation in the world like Mexico.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
... And without a green card, you can't get an SSN.
...

This is incorrect. F1 students and H1B workers have a SSN. One can not get a job without a SSN as far as I know. What's is correct though is that one has to be a permanent resident (i.e. have the green card or become a citizen) to enjoy the SS benefits. H1B workers DO pay SS taxes and will never get anything out of it if they don't become permanent residents as I mentionned earlier in this thread

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by villalobos:
This is incorrect. F1 students and H1B workers have a SSN. One can not get a job without a SSN as far as I know. What's is correct though is that one has to be a permanent resident (i.e. have the green card or become a citizen) to enjoy the SS benefits. H1B workers DO pay SS taxes and will never get anything out of it if they don't become permanent residents as I mentionned earlier in this thread

Go back and reread later on in the thread. This is addressed.

[Secret__Police]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
SSN = Social Security Number

Something legal workers are required to have.

Illegal workers are encouraged to just forge any documents as needed.

Any business that hires or allows a second party to hire illegal immigrants should be fined heavily.
The janitors at my place of work are not legal.

[villalobos]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Go back and reread later on in the thread. This is addressed.

oops, sorry. missed that.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Secret__Police:
Any business that hires or allows a second party to hire illegal immigrants should be fined heavily.
The janitors at my place of work are not legal.

and how long have you known that, and why havent you turned your business in?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Athens:
and how long have you known that, and why havent you turned your business in?

There is nobody to call. No way to turn violators in.

The 'Immigration Department' and police do not enforce these laws - and are not responsible for enforcing them (so they claim).

[y0y0]

Originally posted by Athens:
...

Comment bon vous parlez fran�ais?

Really, the linguistic talent, aren't you? (hint: comment and bon are not used in that context at all). I think that you should be refused entry into Quebec.

[Athens]

Originally posted by y0y0:
Really, the linguistic talent, aren't you? (hint: comment and bon are not used in that context at all). I think that you should be refused entry into Quebec.

blame world.altavista.com

[Mastrap]

Interesting thread.

I am a recent immigrant to Canada. We, my wife and I, arrived from the UK and Germany, so we don't really have any language or cultural problems to face. We've also got friends in Canada and skills which are in demand here, so maybe we're facing fewer problems than others.

However, it was far from easy to get residency in Canada. We had to document pretty much our entire life, supply everything from university diplomas to work, language and police references from every country we had lived in for over six months. A full resume was required, with every qualification counting towards the number of points we needed. Even then there was no guarantee of us being accepted into the country. First we had to go trough an in-depth medical (TB, HIV, diabetes, and a full blood test), then we had to prove that we had enough savings to support ourselves in Canada for at least six month.

When I exchanged my UK driving license for a Canadian I noticed that only drivers from a relatively small number of countries can exchange licenses like for like. (This is in Ontario). Drivers from the majority of countries listed on the application form had to retake their test in Canada.

So, getting into the country is a lot harder than you might imagine.

[Athens]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
Interesting thread.

I am a recent immigrant to Canada. We, my wife and I, arrived from the UK and Germany, so we don't really have any language or cultural problems to face. We've also got friends in Canada and skills which are in demand here, so maybe we're facing fewer problems than others.

However, it was far from easy to get residency in Canada. We had to document pretty much our entire life, supply everything from university diplomas to work, language and police references from every country we had lived in for over six months. A full resume was required, with every qualification counting towards the number of points we needed. Even then there was no guarantee of us being accepted into the country. First we had to go trough an in-depth medical (TB, HIV, diabetes, and a full blood test), then we had to prove that we had enough savings to support ourselves in Canada for at least six month.

When I exchanged my UK driving license for a Canadian I noticed that only drivers from a relatively small number of countries can exchange licenses like for like. (This is in Ontario). Drivers from the majority of countries listed on the application form had to retake their test in Canada.

So, getting into the country is a lot harder than you might imagine.

There are a few ways into Canada.

Independent working class (which you prob took)

In the Independent/Skilled Worker Class, a skilled worker is someone who has at least one (1) year of full-time (37.5 hours per week or more) work experience within the past ten (10) years in one of the occupations listed in either Skill Type 0 or Skill Level A or B of the National Occupational Classification (NOC). The NOC was developed by Human Resources Development Canada to be a systematic cataloging of occupations in the Canadian labour market. The NOC is divided into five (5) bands:

Skill Type - Management Occupations;

Skill Level A which is primarily comprised of professional occupations;

Skill Level B which consists of technical, skilled trades and paraprofessional occupations;

Skill Level C which comprises occupations that mainly consist of intermediate level, clerical or supportive functions;

Skill Level D which consists of elemental sales or service and primary labourer occupations.


Only experience in Skill Type 0 or Skill Levels A and B are considered relevant for applicants in the Independent/Skilled Worker Class.

To immigrate in the Independent/Skilled Worker Class, the experience in Skill Type 0 or Skill Levels A and B must consist of actions described in the lead description and a substantial number of the duties described in the Main Duties section of the NOC, including all the essential duties.

Assuming that they meet the aforementioned prerequisites, applicants are then assessed according to various selection criteria by Citizenship and Immigration Canada officials and applicants must attain a minimum score of sixty-seven (67) points overall in order to be eligible to become permanent residents of Canada.

These selection criteria are as follows:
1. Education: Maximum 25 Points
2. Official Languages: Maximum 24 Points
3. Experience: Maximum 21 Points
4. Arranged Employment: Maximum 10 Points
5. Age: Maximum 10 Points
6. Adaptability: Maximum 10 Points

TOTAL POINTS: Maximum 100 Points

POINTS REQUIRED TO PASS: 67 Points

Family Class

Foreign nationals may be selected as members of the Family Class on the basis of their relationship to a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident. Canadian citizens (including those residing abroad with the intention to return to Canada to reside) and permanent residents (restricted to those residing in Canada, only), age eighteen (18) and over, may sponsor the following members of the Family Class (subject to meeting eligibility requirements):

* their spouse
* their common-law/same-sex partner
* their conjugal partner
* their dependent children under age twenty-two (22)
* their dependent children age twenty-two (22) and over (if they
are full-time (15 hours per week or more) students, mentally or
physically disabled and dependent on their parents)
* children adopted or to be adopted by them, or under their
guardianship
* parents
* grandparents
* other prescribed family members (i.e. last remaining family
member under humanitarian and compassionate grounds where it is
warranted).

Business Class

Permanent Status - Business Class
Business Immigration to Canada remains a viable Immigration option for those individuals who do not otherwise qualify for Immigration to Canada in the Independent/Skilled Worker Class. It is attractive because Canada has a robust economy and is resource rich with a strong and skilled labour force. Of course, an additional advantage to conducting business in Canada is the relative proximity of the United States, which is the largest trading partner of Canada and whose population are huge consumers of goods and services produced in and emanating from Canada.

Business Immigration to Canada was conceived as a means of promoting economic development and employment in Canada by attracting people for Immigration to Canada with venture capital, business acumen and entrepreneurial skills, who can invest in, start, or buy enterprises in Canada and are expected to support the development of a strong and prosperous Canadian economy.

Canada's Business Immigration Program selects business immigrants based on their ability to become economically established in Canada.

Canada has three (3) categories of Business Immigration: Investors, Entrepreneurs and Self-Employed persons. If you meet the requirements for more than one (1) type of category, you may choose the one that you prefer for Immigration. Features of each program are linked, below, to help you make that Immigration decision.

INvestor Class
http://www.akcanada.com/investors.html

Entrepreneur Class
http://www.akcanada.com/entrepreneurs.html


There is more but I got to get to work