[The Final Dakar]

Wait, what word is mentality replacing?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Wait, what word is mentality replacing?

The Republican economic mentality is destroying our culture...


Guys, I'm done discussing the topic, I get it, I'll improve next time. It's not an exciting topic to me to obsess over at this point.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Wait, what word is mentality replacing?

It's replacing "punch in the face" with "sprinkler key in the throat".

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How else would you accurately identify what it is that I'm talking about? That mentality is pretty much the mantra of the Republican messaging machine these days.

Why do I get the feeling that any answer I try to give will be met with accusations of misrepresentation?

What about "small government?" "anti-entitlement?" "anarchist/minarchist?"

Do you realize that what you're complaining about is that the "other guys" (be they republican or not) are scape-goating/blaming our problems on the "government waste" boogeyman, but at the same time you are blaming our problems on the "other guys?" Do you think that's going to be productive?

[besson3c]

I'm blaming the problems on our culture as a whole, shaped by a thousand different factors.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The Republican economic mentality is destroying our culture...

I'm really lost here – you seemed to agree with nonhuman that both sides do it, but you don't feel the title should reflect this?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I'm really lost here – you seemed to agree with nonhuman that both sides do it, but you don't feel the title should reflect this?

Guys, I'm done discussing the topic, I get it, I'll improve next time. It's not an exciting topic to me to obsess over at this point.

...

[subego]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's not an exciting topic to me to obsess over at this point.

LIE!

Being the center of attention is your mostest, favoritest subject.

[The Final Dakar]

On topic, here's my take on why our culture (and economy) is failing: We live in a consumer driven, me-first, instant gratification society, leaving us with mounds of debt (trying to have the next it thing, be like our neighbors and like everyone on TV), little interest in anyone other than ourselves (including our children and their education – with exception to problems that can be "solved" by throwing money at them), and a sense of entitlement (sold to us by our own parents and teachers) that leaves us confused when we go tens of thousands of dollars in debt to get a diploma and we can't find a job or if we do, we're only making barely enough to get by after paying back our loans.

That's the problem with this country.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

...

Go ahead, don't reply. I won't ignore baffling details of this thread just because you want me to.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

On topic, here's my take on why our culture (and economy) is failing: We live in a consumer driven, me-first, instant gratification society, leaving us with mounds of debt (trying to have the next it thing, be like our neighbors and like everyone on TV), little interest in anyone other than ourselves (including our children and their education – with exception to problems that can be "solved" by throwing money at them), and a sense of entitlement (sold to us by our own parents and teachers) that leaves us confused when we go tens of thousands of dollars in debt to get a diploma and we can't find a job or if we do, we're only making barely enough to get by after paying back our loans.

That's the problem with this country.

Winner.

[auto_immune]

Originally Posted by Athens 

The failure lies in these words which have been forgotten. "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." which it has because its now Government of the people by the corporations for the corporations. Once corporations took over it was game over. The problem is the American people which are ****ing morons have allowed themselves to be manipulated by business. Everything done now is for whats best for business not the people. That is the only true failure, everything else falls under that. And corporate America is now spreading like a infection to the rest of the world. First world nations becoming more like the US (Canada included, look at that bastard Harper) and 3rd world nations are the slaves to corporations.

When you get back a government that is of the people, by the people and most important FOR THE PEOPLE things will get corrected. The question is how long will it take to hit rock bottom before this is realized.

That!

[Waragainstsleep]

I was thinking the other day about how childhood activities have changed over the years. A few decades ago, toys were either simple wooden items, or were painted realistic colours so they looked like real cars or trains etc. Nowadays everything is in ultra bright neon colours, aimed to grab attention. Its not just toys though. Kids TV shows are the same, and of course the ads between and basically everything we expose young children to is loud and attention grabbing.
The thing is, we don't seem to wait for the kids to actually get bored before we try to find something else to keep their attention. Then we wonder why they have shorter and shorter attention spans. I think this might be a big contributing factor to poor education, instant gratification and possibly other societal woes.

[Doofy]

I blame the idiot lantern and rappers and fat people and video games.

Fortunately, I have the solution. At age 7 all children must be sent to educational correction facilities and each placed into solitary confinement with a guitar and a copy of Led Zep 4. Their sentence ends when they can play Stairway properly.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

LIE!

Being the center of attention is your mostest, favoritest subject.

Only when it is fun.

It isn't fun when people are mad, or I'm absolutely humiliated like I was hoping and waiting for some information about Doofy's cat.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

On topic, here's my take on why our culture (and economy) is failing: We live in a consumer driven, me-first, instant gratification society, leaving us with mounds of debt (trying to have the next it thing, be like our neighbors and like everyone on TV), little interest in anyone other than ourselves (including our children and their education – with exception to problems that can be "solved" by throwing money at them), and a sense of entitlement (sold to us by our own parents and teachers) that leaves us confused when we go tens of thousands of dollars in debt to get a diploma and we can't find a job or if we do, we're only making barely enough to get by after paying back our loans.

That's the problem with this country.

I agree, but there is something about our culture that seems to discourage learning, creativity, and those sorts of things too I feel - the sorts of attitudes and traits that stimulate great invention and intellectual accomplishment. Maybe it's part of the sense of entitlement you address here.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I agree, but there is something about our culture that seems to discourage learning, creativity, and those sorts of things too I feel - the sorts of attitudes and traits that stimulate great invention and intellectual accomplishment. Maybe it's part of the sense of entitlement you address here.

The more benefits that are guaranteed regardless of education, creativity or dedication, the less reason anyone has to make an effort in education, creativity or dedication. Necessity is the mother of invention, and the social safety net eliminates necessity.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

The more benefits that are guaranteed regardless of education, creativity or dedication, the less reason anyone has to make an effort in education, creativity or dedication. Necessity is the mother of invention, and the social safety net eliminates necessity.

I don't agree that necessity is the mother of invention. Creativity and inspiration is the mother of invention, I'd say.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't agree that necessity is the mother of invention. Creativity and inspiration is the mother of invention, I'd say.

That would be true if not for the fact that genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. People are not going to expend the necessary perspiration if they're not motivated by at least some necessity.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

That would be true if not for the fact that genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. People are not going to expend the necessary perspiration if they're not motivated by at least some necessity.

Financial inspiration, elevation of social status, personal passion, I can think of many sources of motivation that I wouldn't classify as necessity.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

On topic, here's my take on why our culture (and economy) is failing: We live in a consumer driven, me-first, instant gratification society, leaving us with mounds of debt (trying to have the next it thing, be like our neighbors and like everyone on TV), little interest in anyone other than ourselves (including our children and their education – with exception to problems that can be "solved" by throwing money at them), and a sense of entitlement (sold to us by our own parents and teachers) that leaves us confused when we go tens of thousands of dollars in debt to get a diploma and we can't find a job or if we do, we're only making barely enough to get by after paying back our loans.

That's the problem with this country.

Very similar to the Adam Carolla rant someone posted in another thread.
Adam Carolla Rant About the Occupy Mentality.flv - YouTube

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Financial inspiration, elevation of social status, personal passion, I can think of many sources of motivation that I wouldn't classify as necessity.

You can also think of many decongestants that I wouldn't classify as ephedrine, but they still don't do as good a job of it.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Financial inspiration, elevation of social status, personal passion, I can think of many sources of motivation that I wouldn't classify as necessity.

Those are all reasons people these days might give for why they want to be pop stars.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

You can also think of many decongestants that I wouldn't classify as ephedrine, but they still don't do as good a job of it.

Not buying it, sorry.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm tired of hearing people bitch and moan about our failing education system.

I'm tired of our failing education system turning out more people that bitch and moan in general. You're an artist. I get that. Draw something. If it's worthwhile, someone will invest in it. Quit asking the government to front your whimsy.

Our failures are not simply in our education system, but our entire culture. We are becoming a nation of ****ing morons, culturally speaking.

This coming from the purveyor of the jazz=racism thread.

Suffice it to say I think we're turning into a nation of ****ing mentally ill, otherwise defined as progress by Democrats and probably some Republicans. This goes for the failing education system as well.

Look at scientific research, for example. There are Republicans and probably some Democrats who think that our government shouldn't be spending money on programs like NASA or various other avenues of scientific research.

The only logical conclusion then is that Obama is destroying our moon colonies and our economic hopes and any curiosity of such things. Or maybe supporting cuts is actually shrewd in light of the facts and that your country is approaching $17 trillion in debt.

This way of thinking, as far as I understand it, seems to equate to the notion that anything that does not make money in the short term should not be the business of the government.

No... in fact, those who'd generally disagree with you feel the government is specifically not in the business of making money and that it generally loses money when it tries. I'm not sure our expenditures on shrimp treadmills, jello-wrestling in Antarctica, and failed solar panel manufacturers have done much for the advancement of our culture or intellect that they're worth the money. Neither has spending a bunch of money through NASA on programs they're telling you are wasteful.

The problem is, stuff that does not make money in the short term is never the business of private business either, how can it be? Under this way of thinking, there may not have been electricity or any number of other inventions which took many years to develop, and ironically ending up being taxable sources or revenue for the government when looking at the history of the planet (keeping in mind that in the planet's entire overall history, capitalism is a relatively new thing).

How is the government responsible for the inventions of people like; Alexander Graham Bell, Samuel Colt, Henry Ford, Samuel Morse, Eli Whitney, Orville and Wilbur Wright?

What you'll find is that the overwhelming majority of the most influential inventors throughout history were more interested in satisfying their own curiosity or carrying on a family endeavor or solving problems of particular interest to them personally. That doesn't mean the innovation wouldn't have existed, it means the government will most often help by not being against them. Government will certainly invite itself into the potential of it, but they did not conceive it. The only time thought can truly be shut down is when it's beholden to government.

Look at space research. If there was no NASA, what would inspire young kids to pursue science if this is simply not something their country was a leader in, or even funded at all? What would inspire young minds to participate in these areas if their work would simply amount to, say, a more fuel efficient car or plane rather than a chance to explore another planet? A fraction of a penny of our individual tax contributions goes into funding NASA, so not only is the whole attitude of "let's not spend money on space until we sort out matters at home" harmful to our culture, but not spending this money doesn't really solve any problems - it is just the product of politicians resorting to gimmicks to trick the electorate and make themselves look like they are doing a good job. If we can't afford a fraction of a penny, we have far greater problems on our hands.

Of course we were all sitting around perfectly happy not knowing anything until a government program for space curiosity was developed so we could then begin asking important questions about stuff like planetary movements and our environment.

There are number other examples that can be cited in and outside of science including the arts. Countries that have a rich culture are almost always prosperous, and in turn wealthy. A rich culture and support of that which makes our culture great is a money maker. The problem is, support and its effect is often very intangible and lacking direct, measurable connections. Anything that does not have a direct, immediate, and tangible economic benefit seems to be discarded under this "cut all government spending" mindset. While we are floundering about trying to restore our economy in the short term we are trading off our long term for our short term. What great accomplishment would it be to say that we survived our current economic turmoil if this was only for a few years until the next generation of morons inherited power?

Our culture is on the steady decline in a number of areas, our poor education rankings is a reflection of this, not the cause of this. I'm not suggesting that spending on things that might have an impact on our culture should be unfettered, but that we need to be thinking very carefully and deeply about our culture and its long term, rather than just supporting ways to slash budgets for immediate political or short term economic benefit. Another way of saying the same thing might be that we need to look for ways for the government to help start growing the economy again by stimulating the creation of new inventions, and stimulating its people to care. I realize that *making* people care part is not the government's job nor is it even possible, but it's very hard to thrive in spite of an absence of supportive government policy.

How can anyone build a building or paint a picture or create a song or ask questions about their environment without a government expenditure or program? I can't bear to think I'd be asked to help fund this thought exercise, for example.

Answer: We've lost our muse. The most profound contribution to the arts have been angst, need, pain, and living. We haven't been dumbed down as you suggest, we've been numbed down. We have no angst because we don't need anything. We don't have needs because someone else is meeting them for us. We medicate every ounce of our pain and discomfort because it's cheap, leaving us without so much as a restless leg to get us off the couch, and we're too busy watching other people living on television.

America is being passed over in so many areas these days, its international leadership is waning, and this goes way, way, way beyond left and right politics. It's time to change this by thinking a little bigger and bolder about our investments.

Way beyond left and right politics huh? This entire rant seemed little more than yet another attempt at running the ol' "Republicans suck" idea up the flagpole.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

I'm tired of our failing education system turning out more people that bitch and moan in general. You're an artist. I get that. Draw something. If it's worthwhile, someone will invest in it. Quit asking the government to front your whimsy.

Projecting a little? I have not called for the government to subsidize art in this thread.

This coming from the purveyor of the jazz=racism thread.

Official MacNN filter #2

The only logical conclusion then is that Obama is destroying our moon colonies and our economic hopes and any curiosity of such things. Or maybe supporting cuts is actually shrewd in light of the facts and that your country is approaching $17 trillion in debt.

Supporting NASA costs a fraction of a penny for each individual. I'd argue that not supporting NASA is more harmful than asking for a fraction of a penny from each tax payer.

How is the government responsible for the inventions of people like; Alexander Graham Bell, Samuel Colt, Henry Ford, Samuel Morse, Eli Whitney, Orville and Wilbur Wright?

Where did I say that it was?

What you'll find is that the overwhelming majority of the most influential inventors throughout history were more interested in satisfying their own curiosity or carrying on a family endeavor or solving problems of particular interest to them personally. That doesn't mean the innovation wouldn't have existed, it means the government will most often help by not being against them. Government will certainly invite itself into the potential of it, but they did not conceive it. The only time thought can truly be shut down is when it's beholden to government.

It would be interesting to survey the motivations behind the most influential inventors throughout history, and how many of them could have done what they did without government support or sound policy of some kind? When I refer to "support" this doesn't mean only financial support.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Supporting NASA costs a fraction of a penny for each individual. I'd argue that not supporting NASA is more harmful than asking for a fraction of a penny from each tax payer.

No that graph is in millions, not dollars. It's about $60/head each year (according to wikipedia).

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

No that graph is in millions, not dollars. It's about $60/head each year (according to wikipedia).

17 million dollars split between 300 billion people, but since our tax isn't flat we aren't each going to spend $56. My math was off (and yes, I know the difference between percentages and dollar amounts, you don't need the dickish mocking laughing face guy), but still, for the average household it's small potatoes. Even at $56/year, this covers more than just outer space exploration. If this is what it costs to attract some of the best scientists to this country to work on stuff that could have a positive impact, including reducing costs in aerospace technology, satellite systems, or developing new innovations that could help grow the economy, this is a bargain providing that NASA projects are well administered and prioritized and all of that.

The larger point is that regardless of whether you agree with this, NASA is relatively cheap, and has a large potential upside.

[subego]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It isn't fun when people are mad,

I'm not mad at you.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

I'm not mad at you.

Then why aren't you hugging me?

[subego]

I am. Those aren't your pants.

[besson3c]

raawwwrrr!!

[subego]

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Projecting a little? I have not called for the government to subsidize art in this thread.

Where did I say that it was?

It would be interesting to survey the motivations behind the most influential inventors throughout history, and how many of them could have done what they did without government support or sound policy of some kind? When I refer to "support" this doesn't mean only financial support.

It seems between myself and a couple of others, we've gotten you to back away from just about every point you've made in this thread so far. Excellent. You've now not said any of the things you've said... as usual. Way to think ahead bess.

So, anything else?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Very similar to the Adam Carolla rant someone posted in another thread.
Adam Carolla Rant About the Occupy Mentality.flv - YouTube

God, don't even compare me to that idiot. I've heard parts of it and it's as shallow and shortsighted as the rest of his uninformed opinions.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I agree, but there is something about our culture that seems to discourage learning, creativity, and those sorts of things too I feel - the sorts of attitudes and traits that stimulate great invention and intellectual accomplishment. Maybe it's part of the sense of entitlement you address here.

I thought you were done with the topic?

It's not entitlement, it's the consumer driven/instant-gratification. Why learn if you can make money now? What does being creative do for my wallet? All short term with little regard for long term. This one seems to be particularly endemic in corporate culture.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

It seems between myself and a couple of others, we've gotten you to back away from just about every point you've made in this thread so far. Excellent. You've now not said any of the things you've said... as usual. Way to think ahead bess.

So, anything else?

Huh?

I've made and tweaked a bunch of points, does this mean that you agree with me at this point?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I thought you were done with the topic?

It's not entitlement, it's the consumer driven/instant-gratification. Why learn if you can make money now? What does being creative do for my wallet? All short term with little regard for long term. This one seems to be particularly endemic in corporate culture.

That's probably the crux of it, yeah.

Does this mean that the government should stop backing the scientific community and longer term projects, for example, so long as Americans don't really seem driven to work on stuff that might not make money now?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Does this mean that the government should stop backing the scientific community and longer term projects, for example, so long as Americans don't really seem driven to work on stuff that might not make money now?

There are plenty of Americans willing to work on that stuff.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

There are plenty of Americans willing to work on that stuff.

But the actions and attitudes of our politicians reflect our culture, and the interest in working on that stuff might wane if it feels like a constant battle to be politically supported properly (however you want to define "support"), don't you think?

What is the solution?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

But the actions and attitudes of our politicians reflect our culture

Do they? Given their approval ratings I'm inclined to disagree.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Do they? Given their approval ratings I'm inclined to disagree.

Their approval ratings have more to do with their perceived trustworthiness, poor political record, perceived effectiveness, perceived ability to win, people's gut feelings, and to some their ideology. Politicians manufacture their ideology to reflect what it is they think that the people want, or at least their personal ideology reflects the culture around them. Ideology is about the only thing that keeps them from being at 0% approval. If they had no political base and were also douchy as most are, what would there to be support?

[The Final Dakar]

Their approval rating doesn't reflect that their legislative concerns and effectiveness don't represent the interests of the average American?

Ideology may keep them from being 0%, but that's not any type of victory. Their idealogical base makes up a far larger percentage than those who approve.

Edit: I think you're throwing a bunch of shit around trying obscure or drown that most people don't like what they manage to get done (or don't manage to).

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Their approval rating doesn't reflect that their legislative concerns and effectiveness don't represent the interests of the average American?

Ideology may keep them from being 0%, but that's not any type of victory. Their idealogical base makes up a far larger percentage than those who approve.

Edit: I think you're throwing a bunch of smoke around trying obscure or drown that most people don't like what they manage to get done (or don't manage to).

My point is that politicians and their tactics are a reflection of our culture. You bring up a good point here in questioning whether the low approval ratings of politicians actually reflects our culture, but their low approval rating also reflects our culture too in that:

1) The majority of people do not vote at all or participate in the electoral process

2) The majority of people have not applied pressure on the political system to help change what it is they don't like and replace politicians they don't like with politicians they do (e.g. help reform campaign financing so that not having money is not a huge deterrent to running for office. Obama's success was the exception, not the norm)

3) The rhetoric that politicians use to their advantage is rooted in their perceptions of our surrounding culture


Many of the problems we are facing now have much lower level sociological roots. Our political system is a game of bread and circuses in part because our culture allows to be for the very reasons you cited - entitlement.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

My point is that politicians and their tactics are a reflection of our culture.

They are a reflection of politics. Yes, some of that is rooted in our culture, but the culture of politics doesn't exactly accurately represent that of the average person. See: Primary voters.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

1) The majority of people do not vote at all or participate in the electoral process

And that is one of the main problems. Politicians don't pander to our culture, they pander to small subset that can control their destiny.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

2) The majority of people have not applied pressure on the political system to help change what it is they don't like and replace politicians they don't like with politicians they do (e.g. help reform campaign financing so that not having money is not a huge deterrent to running for office. Obama's success was the exception, not the norm)

The majority aren't well informed enough to. At the risk of subjecting myself to a sick burn, I would consider myself far more informed than the average american in general and on politics, yet I don't consider myself qualified to participate in all but a small fraction of political threads in this forum. The depth and breadth of the subjects is so vast I challenge it's next to impossible to be properly educated on every subject without making it one of your life's primary concerns outside of making of living (assuming it isn't how you make a living).

Originally Posted by besson3c 

3) The rhetoric that politicians use to their advantage is rooted in their perceptions of our surrounding culture

I don't consider Lowest Common Denominator our culture. I may get called on this, and I could see someone like Uncle Skeleton rewording it into a manner that changes my mind, but on the surface, I disagree with this.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Many of the problems we are facing now have much lower level sociological roots. Our political system is a game of bread and circuses in part because our culture allows to be for the very reasons you cited - entitlement.

Entitlements are certainly what get used to drum up support for the election progress, but the system itself has been derailed since who it's supposed to represent and who it actually does are no longer the same answer.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c

3) The rhetoric that politicians use to their advantage is rooted in their perceptions of our surrounding culture

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I don't consider Lowest Common Denominator our culture. I may get called on this, and I could see someone like Uncle Skeleton rewording it into a manner that changes my mind, but on the surface, I disagree with this.

I don't believe that politicians' rhetoric can be used to draw any useful conclusions about anything. They are so slippery as a group and as individuals, that you just can't extrapolate from them to anywhere. You can't even be sure that they think what they're saying will get them elected, it might be reverse psychology clumsily played to any degree. I also disagree.

That's actually a good summary of why this thread is eyeroll-worthy IMO. It seems like a reaction to something some unnamed politician has said, but it's far more of a reaction than it merits. Jumping at shadows.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

That's actually a good summary of why this thread is eyeroll-worthy IMO. It seems like a reaction to something some unnamed politician has said, but it's far more of a reaction than it merits. Jumping at shadows.

i.e., the partisan knee jerk that was alluded to much earlier. We have come full circle.

[besson3c]

Official MacNN filter #2: put the poster under a microscope. We have indeed come full circle.

I'm sort of grasping at shadows in that I haven't fully pinpointed or identified the core problem, which is why I wanted to create this thread to help refine my thinking. My thinking is basically rooted in the notion that our problems are cultural problems, and that by not thinking of ways in which we can tackle our cultural decline or at least confronting this problem head on at its roots, we are just making matters worse.

So many of our problems can be traced back to our culture:

1) Dumbass politicians: in part because we have a dumbass electorate that does not participate fully, if at all
2) Declining education system: reflection of our values and sense of entitlement, as Dakar has addressed
3) Declining economy: in part lack of creative spark and invention that can help grow the economy
4) Declining status in the world, including the scientific community: see above
5) The Republican mentality of wanting to cut everything under the sun without being more constructive about examining these investments more closely and how they might benefit our culture in the long term as well as short term

I'm starting to think that you can't really solve these problems without addressing its root cause: our culture, its values, our attitudes, etc.

It seems like we don't disagree on this in a sense, if it weren't for all of the other distractions here (my thread topic, the MacNN filtration process, my lack of refinement in my overall presentation, etc.)

[The Final Dakar]

Politicians don't control our culture, not to the extent which you seem to think.

Go back to my first post you seemed to agree with. Now trace those symptoms to a root cause. See if its politicians.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Official MacNN filter #2: put the poster under a microscope. We have indeed come full circle.

I don't think so. I think we're putting the post under a microscope. Why shouldn't we? Isn't that exactly the whole point of posting?

Here is a serious answer for you: you apparently perceive that some nebulous concept of culture is under attack. Look outward not inward to pinpoint what it is that makes you perceive this. Then pursue that actual thing to find its cause. Don't keep imagining and extrapolating what you think the cause "ought" to be. That road leads to madness.

This is why the strawman is a fallacy. In this thread you are not addressing the actual opposition, you are addressing what you (earnestly) believe the opposition to be. There is no point in wasting any further time on that (yours or your readers') until you can demonstrate that it is really what someone believes and is acting on, and whether that person is a significant force or merely an aberration.