[ghporter]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

I don't think a professional doctor should be doing breast augmentation, either. It's not a medical procedure, and it does nothing to improve health or heal the body.

On the contrary, breast augmentation is VERY medical. First, it's non-trivial surgery. It's not "trimming off a skin tag" or other very minor procedure, it's SURGERY, with general anesthesia and potential for serious bleeding. Further, it IS a "medical" procedure in that it DOES "improve health or heal the body" in many cases, particularly in those cases involving women who have had mastectomies. In such cases, it is restorative plastic surgery, not vanity. Sure, lots of people use the procedure just to get big boobs, without some "medical" reason, but lots and lots of others seek it for "REAL" reasons. And there are specific certifications for surgeons who perform this procedure, including in both general restorative plastic surgery and the specific manipulation of what is frankly very complex tissue that is the breast.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by tooki 

Right now, I submit that the current practice of only performing socially acceptable (but in fact riskier) aesthetic procedures is more unethical.

I agree. I think we need a new field that includes boob jobs, piercings, and other modifications. Whether it requires full med school and residency, or some other multi year postgraduate program + apprenticeship (which is basically what residency is), I don't really care. It doesn't really belong with much of the other laws and oaths related to doctors: "do no harm", primary physician referrals, insurance, etc. You'd honestly be better off in your own profession where you can lobby for your own rules that make sense for your own stuff.

I know it may seem like separate is somehow less than, but from my point of view, it's not. I've had five piercings at different points in my life, and I certainly don't hold doctors up on some pedestal as noble saviors. In my mind, the only relationship modification and medicine have little relationship.

* I have a degree in biochemistry and was pre-med. Most of that coursework is likely useless for modification, and it would probably be better served with its own curriculum, similar to the way physical therapy is separate. It's more physical than chemical.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

On the contrary, breast augmentation is VERY medical. First, it's non-trivial surgery. It's not "trimming off a skin tag" or other very minor procedure, it's SURGERY, with general anesthesia and potential for serious bleeding. Further, it IS a "medical" procedure in that it DOES "improve health or heal the body" in many cases, particularly in those cases involving women who have had mastectomies. In such cases, it is restorative plastic surgery, not vanity. Sure, lots of people use the procedure just to get big boobs, without some "medical" reason, but lots and lots of others seek it for "REAL" reasons. And there are specific certifications for surgeons who perform this procedure, including in both general restorative plastic surgery and the specific manipulation of what is frankly very complex tissue that is the breast.

Yes, I've seen it done. There's cutting and bleeding. Don't make it more complicated than it is - getting knocked out isn't a major complexity - many dentists do it, and they couldn't do squat to help you if you don't wake up. Boob jobs do not affect the operation of the body in any way, even in the case of mastectomy. There is no complexity of dealing with the operation of the body. It could be done effectively by someone without a medical degree. No doubt plastic surgeons disagree, because it is to their benefit to be limited in number and charge high prices, but it is more artistry than medicine.

There's a similar level of risk in many of the modifications that get done beyond simple piercings. It's something that deserves its own field, but it would be ludicrous to send modifiers to plastic surgeons - no one can afford their insane prices.

I'm not suggesting that it doesn't require university or postgraduate study to do it, just that it doesn't require medical school. You'd be better off with specialized training (not just a few plastic rotations and then residency) for this. Most of the medicine curriculum is simply unrelated.

[RAILhead]

Are we for real talking about whether boob jobs are legit? Who has the "right" to declare whether or not a boob job "benefits" anyone? Where do we draw the line?

I know plenty of women who, as they grew older, had small, young-girl sized breasts, and they were very self-conscious about it. Clothes didn't fit as well, swimsuits didn't fit well, they had confidence issues, etc. REGARDLESS of the perceived validity of those concerns (ie: culture seems to dictate women should have big boobs, and those women took the bait and they shouldn't have), there's a psychological benefit for many of the women that have breast enlargement done. That IS to their well-being and benefit.

Is it medically necessary? Rarely — but what difference does that make?

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by tooki 

Umm, how is it arrogant? I belong to the group that's too conformist and spineless to turn myself into a cat or lizard or zombie or whatever, even if I wanted to. THAT was the context of that line.

The notion that unless you modify your body you are conformist and or spineless. Have you considered the possibility that there are those that just don't want to do it?

Modifying one's appearance is not the sole measure of one's personal creativity.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

Yes, I've seen it done. There's cutting and bleeding. Don't make it more complicated than it is - getting knocked out isn't a major complexity - many dentists do it, and they couldn't do squat to help you if you don't wake up. Boob jobs do not affect the operation of the body in any way, even in the case of mastectomy. There is no complexity of dealing with the operation of the body. It could be done effectively by someone without a medical degree. No doubt plastic surgeons disagree, because it is to their benefit to be limited in number and charge high prices, but it is more artistry than medicine.

There's a similar level of risk in many of the modifications that get done beyond simple piercings. It's something that deserves its own field, but it would be ludicrous to send modifiers to plastic surgeons - no one can afford their insane prices.

I'm not suggesting that it doesn't require university or postgraduate study to do it, just that it doesn't require medical school. You'd be better off with specialized training (not just a few plastic rotations and then residency) for this. Most of the medicine curriculum is simply unrelated.

Very few dentists perform general anesthesia-the most they do is conscious sedation. This is MAJOR surgery, especially because of the structures related to the breast tissue. For example, the breast is served by a very complex system of lymph ducts and nodes that often cross over to the opposite side of the body, that interact with the axillary lymph system, and that of the neck; a simple "goof" could cause a very deadly infection that could be fatal in days. The blood supply to the breast is far from trivial-and it is one of the most anatomically variable vascularizations in the body. In fact one way this has been dealt with is for the surgeon to put the implant under the pectoralis major muscle-which causes mechanical problems in the action of that muscle.

It DOES require a medical degree AND serious experience AND specialized training beyond that. It is simply NOT as simple as you're making it out to be-NO surgery is.

On the other hand, if you have this level of disdain for professional training and experience requirements needed to embark on even an "aesthetic surgery" career, on you go! I do recommend that you don't quit your day job though, as the laws in most Western countries are pretty much stacked against you-because this type of procedure really and truly IS a very much medical procedure and it really and truly does impact the functioning of the entire body. Cosmetic surgery in general is NOT using what is basically a stapler to poke starter studs in someone's ear.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

The notion that unless you modify your body you are conformist and or spineless. Have you considered the possibility that there are those that just don't want to do it?

That's not what I said. What I said is that most people are too conformist and spineless to handle getting a major body transformation (e.g. to cat, lizard, or zombie). And I believe that's true -- I am a modified person and I still do not have the spine to turn into a zombie or whatever, even if I did want it.

I did NOT say what you are saying I said, you took my statement out of the SPECIFIC context I placed it in.

I completely respect someone's choice to not want modification. What I dislike is that those people frequently do not respect my decision to want it.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by tooki 

That's not what I said. What I said is that most people are too conformist and spineless to handle getting a major body transformation (e.g. to cat, lizard, or zombie). And I believe that's true -- I am a modified person and I still do not have the spine to turn into a zombie or whatever, even if I did want it.

I did NOT say what you are saying I said, you took my statement out of the SPECIFIC context I placed it in.

I completely respect someone's choice to not want modification. What I dislike is that those people frequently do not respect my decision to want it.

And I will counter that the reason that most people do not get major body modification has nothing to do with their innate need to conform or their spinelessness. Most people just have no desire to do it. I don't think it was bravery or individualism that led me to get what piercings I have nor was it fear or conformity that stopped me from going farther or eventually led me to take them out.

I simply don't buy that a heavily modified person in necessarily for individualistic or brave than a poet or activist that wears chinos and has short hair. Body modification is one of many forms of self expression, not the only one.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

And I will counter that the reason that most people do not get major body modification has nothing to do with their innate need to conform or their spinelessness. Most people just have no desire to do it. I don't think it was bravery or individualism that led me to get what piercings I have nor was it fear or conformity that stopped me from going farther or eventually led me to take them out.

I simply don't buy that a heavily modified person in necessarily for individualistic or brave than a poet or activist that wears chinos and has short hair. Body modification is one of many forms of self expression, not the only one.

I think tooki’s saying that most people who do want modifications are too conformist and spineless to go through with it; he’s leaving people who have no desire for modifications out of the equation entirely.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

I think tooki’s saying that most people who do want modifications are too conformist and spineless to go through with it; he’s leaving people who have no desire for modifications out of the equation entirely.

Perhaps so. I may have been confused by his "even if they want to" line. It sounded to me that he was including everyone, those who desire modifications and those that don't.

[ghporter]

I'm with Oisín on this; there are a lot of people who feel they want to be physically different, but don't go beyond a couple of earrings and maybe a small tattoo. I work with one young lady with a number of tattoos she attributes to her "youth" (she's about 30 right now), and she says she would not have gotten them-at least not the specific tattoos she has-if she'd thought about her future and the potential impact of tattoos on employment. I think a LOT of people have balanced "I want to look different" with "I don't want to look so different that I won't get a job and people will think I'm a freak" and abstain. While I think the defensive "I don't want people to think I'm a freak" concept is overdone most of the time, I can at least empathize with it. On the other hand, it takes a VERY together, confident person to say "bleep 'em, I'll get that tattoo and let 'em stare."

I have acquaintances with what I consider "interesting" tattoos and piercings (one was the first person I'd seen with studs in the middle of her cheeks), but most have been conservative in where such mods lie, or how they dress when in business/work attire. My son, for example, designed his one tattoo to be the right size to be hidden by short sleeves, yet it's quite a large piece of artwork.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I have acquaintances with what I consider "interesting" tattoos and piercings (one was the first person I'd seen with studs in the middle of her cheeks), but most have been conservative in where such mods lie, or how they dress when in business/work attire. My son, for example, designed his one tattoo to be the right size to be hidden by short sleeves, yet it's quite a large piece of artwork.

All of my tats (13 and counting) can be covered by a short-sleeved shirt and long pants, I've been careful in not allowing my body art to negatively impact future associations. If I want to show some of them off, which I often do, I just wear a muscle shirt and shorts. I like having that option.

My wife, on the other hand, is quite "decorated". Arms, neck, legs... almost everywhere. The only way she could hide them all is to dress like an Eskimo. That's her choice though, and I love her tattoos. I couldn't imagine her without them, they're part of what makes her who she is.

[tooki]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

I think tooki’s saying that most people who do want modifications are too conformist and spineless to go through with it; he’s leaving people who have no desire for modifications out of the equation entirely.

Thank you, exactly! Sometimes it takes a third party to translate this English into English!