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loki74 · May 15, 2005, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by tigas

As for "lenient" html code: OK, so imagine I'm driving and I arrive at an intersection where I have a Stop sign and I decide to, uhh, stop. Then some freak tailgates me and says it's my fault the accident happened because no-one stops at a Stop sign?

Dumb analogy. Browsing the net... driving a car. wow. It seems to me that Operas the one NOT stopping at the the stop sign. And youre saying its the developer's fault for making their site most compatable with the majority.

Also lets not forget that the developers of web content creations software would have to double-check their apps to make sure its cool for Opera. Dumb. Why should everyone have to make all these compromises for ONE browser? Once (and IF at all) Opera's rendering method becoms mainstream, dont expect deleopers to make any huge compromises.

mpancha · May 15, 2005, 04:46 PM

Right now I use both Safari and Firefox.

I like Safari's bookmark toolbar (simply the fact that I can hit the little bookmark icon to the left and get to my bookmark toolbar screen and edit). The RSS reader is alright, it would make no difference to me if it were not there, I'd just use a different RSS reader. I use it b/c it is there, but nothign aboutit jumps out at me.

Firefox >> I've been using it on PCs since its inception. I like that there is absolutely nothign different about the Mac and PC versions. One of my favorite features is the search engine chooser. I ebay frequently, so having the little drop down was a great time saver for me. Gmail works perfect in firefox, whereas the email autofill does not in safari. Rich text works in gmail for those few times I choose to use rtf instead of plain text.

Overall they both fend equally, neither one has 100% impressed me, but at the same time neither one has disappointed me.

bmedina · May 15, 2005, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by loki74

Also lets not forget that the developers of web content creations software would have to double-check their apps to make sure its cool for Opera. Dumb. Why should everyone have to make all these compromises for ONE browser?

They shouldn't. They should create standards-compliant code, then work around shortcomings of incompliant browsers. Web development proceeds much faster that way.

sieb · May 15, 2005, 05:20 PM

I like FF because I can use it on any platform (win, mac, *nix) and expect it to work the same across all, for the most part. I like that I can add an extension to block out flash on webpages. I also like how its tab system works (with the addition of Tab Broswer Prefs.).

I want to use safari, and I do, but mostly just on javascripted sites, or other odd sites that don't quite work right with FF, usually because of plugins like WMP and the like. I do admit that its blazingly fast, faster than FF.

My only beef with the two is that in FF, some flash sites can cripple FF by maxing it out at 100% cpu for no reason requiring a Force Quit, whereas they run fine in Safari. And Safari's tab system doesn't work the same as FF in that "open in new page" links can't be forced to open in a new tab, instead they still open in a new window defeating the purpose of tabs. If I could find a way to get that to work in Safari, I would probably be using it more often. There's just little quirks that annoy me that keeps me from keeping one or the other all the time.

With widgets in Tiger, I don't even use extensions in FF anymore on my Mac, just on my PC.

Saint_Stryfe · May 15, 2005, 07:45 PM

A nice little Firefox extension called RiteOfTongue gives right-click spell check. It's not perfect - It queries the Net, not System Dictionary, and it's also of course, because of querying the net, a bit slower. It also doesn't underline incorrect words - it just checks on the word you right click. However, it does add the functionality. It also is only V. 1 so hopefully we'll see these benefits added later.

For me, AdAware is the biggest revolution in browsing sence INternet Explorer. It simply makes me ENJOY using the Net - I recoil in horror when I surf my buddies PCs and see all these intrusive, ugly ads. It also is nice for ignoring the ugly graphics your friends put on on net forums. :-)

And for some reason - Safari 2 for me is DIRT slow. I mean painful. Horrid. Godawful. Firefox is more then speedy enough end-to-end. And hell, again, V. 1.

Zimphire · May 15, 2005, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by bmedina

Sounds like you should take your own advice.

Advice? Where was I giving advice. I actually TIMED the suckers after reading this.

Safari is faster, but not by much.

I could re-download Firefox and do it again if you wish.

bmedina · May 15, 2005, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Advice? Where was I giving advice. I actually TIMED the suckers after reading this.

Safari is faster, but not by much.

I could re-download Firefox and do it again if you wish.

That's fine, but you're only one data point. You have to realize that not everyone has identical experiences to yours.

cmoney · May 15, 2005, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by bmedina

That's fine, but you're only one data point. You have to realize that not everyone has identical experiences to yours.

Not only that, but we need to remember that what's faster for the set of web pages that you regularly visit may not be the same for the set of web pages that I regularly visit. Thus we can get highly individualized results depending on the sites visited AND the system configurations.

loki74 · May 15, 2005, 10:40 PM

...... and thus we can completely exclude "speed" as a factor cant we? I mean how many possible different macines times how many possible sites reqularly visited? not statistics I'd like to try and find out, no siree.

Footy · May 16, 2005, 07:20 PM

Since upgrading to Tiger my online banking has been broke and I'm really not crazy about IE so I decided to download and try Firefox for banking. No problem, worked like a champ. As I'm tooling around a bit I notice just how much faster Firefox is compared to Safari. VERY noticeable!

So anyway, I've moved all my Safari bookmarks over and will be running Firefox from here on out, or at least until Safari drops that brushed metal look.

Moving bookmarks over was a bit of a pain, had to do them one at a time then rename the link since the link name was the same as the address once they were moved over. Was over do to clean my bookmarks up anyway.

Zimphire · May 16, 2005, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by bmedina

That's fine, but you're only one data point. You have to realize that not everyone has identical experiences to yours.

Indeed. But that is why I use Safari now. It's teh fastest on my computer.

bmedina · May 16, 2005, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Footy

As I'm tooling around a bit I notice just how much faster Firefox is compared to Safari. VERY noticeable!

Another data point.

So anyway, I've moved all my Safari bookmarks over and will be running Firefox from here on out, or at least until Safari drops that brushed metal look.

You can change the brushed metal look easily with Interface Builder. I'm particularly fond of the "Unified Toolbar" look when applied to Safari.

Moving bookmarks over was a bit of a pain, had to do them one at a time

There's a program called Safari Bookmark Exporter that makes the process much less painful.

Zimphire · May 16, 2005, 10:05 PM

You can even keep the metal look, and remove the brushed.

Salsa · May 17, 2005, 12:58 AM

I like a lot of things about Safari:

auto fill forms
contextual menus (it works with StickyBrain)
add image to iPhoto
there's probably more that I'm forgetting

Anyway, I have to use FireFox because Safari has always hung on my system. Several times per week I would just get a spinning beachball that would leave Safari completely unresponsive. I know this doesn't happen to everybody, or even most people but has happened to me on two computers (a dual G5 and a Quicksilver G4) and every o/s since it came out.

Footy · May 17, 2005, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by bmedina

There's a program called Safari Bookmark Exporter that makes the process much less painful.

Now you tell me!

I'll have to keep this in mind for next time.

mpancha · May 23, 2005, 10:14 AM

another thing I prefer in firefox that safari doesn't do is the search (ctrl + F).... in Firefox, it brings up a search bar when you hit ctrl+F, and as you type it begins highlighting the search string as it finds it on the webpage. The search bar has built-in find next/previous buttons... its just better tan having a new window pop up to search from, and having to repeatedly hit Ctrl+F, having the window pop up, and go through that process to find next.

cgc · May 23, 2005, 10:31 AM

Safari in 10.3.9 was the best by far. Safari 2.x doesn't work with my online college site, but the older Safari did. My vote goes for Camino which works with everything, although OmniWeb ROX too...$40?? Nope.

wataru · May 23, 2005, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by mpancha

another thing I prefer in firefox that safari doesn't do is the search (ctrl + F).... in Firefox, it brings up a search bar when you hit ctrl+F, and as you type it begins highlighting the search string as it finds it on the webpage. The search bar has built-in find next/previous buttons... its just better tan having a new window pop up to search from, and having to repeatedly hit Ctrl+F, having the window pop up, and go through that process to find next.

Well it's command+F, not ctrl+F on Macs. And if you enable find-as-you-type, you don't even need to hit command+F first. I really love that feature.

Le Flaneur · May 23, 2005, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

For Mac I would definitely say Safari 1.3 or 2.0.

2.0 is so much faster than anything I have used it is crazy.

Many just say Firefox because it is fashionable to do so. It was faster before safari 1.3 but not anymore.

The problem with Safari (even version 2.0) is that FireFox works with far more web sites. If there's extensive use of JavaScript, forget Safari!

mpancha · May 23, 2005, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by wataru

Well it's command+F, not ctrl+F on Macs. And if you enable find-as-you-type, you don't even need to hit command+F first. I really love that feature.

.. I meant Command+F...

where is the option to enable "find as you type" in safari? I looked through the prefs and could not find it and I didn't see it in Edit -> find.

wataru · May 23, 2005, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by mpancha

.. I meant Command+F...

where is the option to enable "find as you type" in safari? I looked through the prefs and could not find it and I didn't see it in Edit -> find.

Only Firefox (and Mozilla?) has it.

pedroperez80 · May 23, 2005, 02:28 PM

I'll go with Shiira, is faster than safari 2.0, and more customizable.

brutal · May 24, 2005, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by wataru

Only Firefox (and Mozilla?) has it.

You can get it Safari too if you install Saft

wataru · May 24, 2005, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by brutal

You can get it Safari too if you install Saft

US$12? I think I'll keep using it in Firefox for free.

Randman · May 24, 2005, 11:43 AM

Safari's just fine without Saft and free as well.

wataru · May 24, 2005, 11:59 AM

We were discussing find-as-you-type.

Randman · May 24, 2005, 12:13 PM

I know. I can read.

But the discussion is Safari vs Camino vs Firefox. And not everyone cares about find-as-you-type, believe it or not. You want to talk just about find-as-you-type, start a thread on it. If not, don't come across as condescending and arrogant.

IronPen · May 24, 2005, 01:47 PM

SafariStand allows you to find-as-you-type among other features for FREE. I can't use Safari without this wonderful tool.

wataru · May 25, 2005, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Randman

I know. I can read.

But the discussion is Safari vs Camino vs Firefox. And not everyone cares about find-as-you-type, believe it or not. You want to talk just about find-as-you-type, start a thread on it. If not, don't come across as condescending and arrogant.

This is a thread about the relative merits of Safari, Camino, and Firefox. The find-as-you-type feature is perfectly on-topic. No problem here.

Someone pointed out that Saft allows this feature in Safari; I noted that this feature is free in Firefox, whereas the Saft extension costs US$12. No problem here.

Nowhere did I say that Safari wasn't free, and I never said that everyone does or should care about find-as-you-type. We were having a perfectly normal, on-topic conversation until you decided to get your panties in a twist. Please check your attitude at the door next time.

Zimphire · May 25, 2005, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Le Flaneur

The problem with Safari (even version 2.0) is that FireFox works with far more web sites. If there's extensive use of JavaScript, forget Safari!

Not my copy of Firefox. It crashes so badly when there is complex javascript.

You must have a version with the debug code removed to make it snappy.

driven · May 25, 2005, 07:50 AM

I actually hate the find as you type feature. Maybe I just resist change, but I'd much rather have the old pop-up "find" dialog.

spiff72 · May 25, 2005, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by driven

I actually hate the find as you type feature. Maybe I just resist change, but I'd much rather have the old pop-up "find" dialog.

I have been trying to use Safari now that I upgraded to Tiger, but the one thing I miss most about Firefox is the Googlebar extension/plugin. When you use the google search text field, it creates search buttons on the bar for each search term. This is a SWEET feature. It makes it very handy to find your search terms on a big web page.

wataru · May 25, 2005, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by driven

I actually hate the find as you type feature. Maybe I just resist change, but I'd much rather have the old pop-up "find" dialog.

You can turn it off. In fact it's disabled by default in Firefox.

Vpro7 · May 25, 2005, 09:06 AM

I was a Firefox user up until Safari 2. With the latest Safari, I'm finding it to be very fast, feature-rich, and a joy to use. The few things I missed from FF, Saft gave me them back. I would like more control over cookies, though.
Also, FF's interface is such a mess, IMO. It's fine on the PC, but on OS X it's just a disaster.

Still, I'll use FF on the PC.

mediahound · 01:54 PM

Lynx is the only way to go.

in all seriousness, I switched from Firefox to Safari 2.0 after I got Tiger because:

I hated that you sometimes couldn't open a new window when downloading in Firefox
I hated that you cannot drag a URL from Firefox to the Dock like you can in Safari. (Having a URL in the dock is handy for UPS/FEDEX tracking for example. Then after the package arrives, just move it off the dock).
I hated how Firefox would slow way down or even crash with some sites that have java
I like the way Safar does history better.
Safari just seems faster overall.

driven · Jul 10, 2005, 02:17 PM

The only thing I use Firefox for is GMAIL. (for the rich text editing) Everything else is Safari.

wataru · Jul 10, 2005, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by mediahound

I hated that you sometimes couldn't open a new window when downloading in Firefox

That is annoying, but you can still open a new window by having a different app open a URL. Try the Get OS X Software item in the Apple menu. Also, I believe this is fixed in the nightlies.

I hated that you cannot drag a URL from Firefox to the Dock like you can in Safari. (Having a URL in the dock is handy for UPS/FEDEX tracking for example. Then after the package arrives, just move it off the dock).

That would be a nice feature, but you can do something similar by simply using the bookmarks toolbar instead of the Dock.

I hated how Firefox would slow way down or even crash with some sites that have java

Did you try this?

I like the way Safar does history better.

How so? You can view the history grouped by date in Firefox too.

Safari just seems faster overall.

The Firefox nightlies blow Safari away on my machine. They're way faster than 1.0.x, which is no dog either.

Zimphire · Jul 10, 2005, 11:31 PM

Wow, I would like to get the source of the Firefox that blows Safari out of the window,

Esp version 2.0

mediahound · Jul 11, 2005, 12:39 AM

ya, why compromise when i can just run Safari?

wataru · Jul 11, 2005, 04:10 AM

Because Firefox can do so much more than Safari can, and all of your complaints about it are easily addressed.

Randman · Jul 11, 2005, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Wow, I would like to get the source of the Firefox that blows Safari out of the window,

Esp version 2.0

Urban legend. FF rocks on Windows and I'm, glad it will continue to be ported to the Mactels but it's one step below Safari 2.0.

wataru · Jul 11, 2005, 08:46 AM

Like I said, nightlies. Way faster than Safari 2.0 on my machine. Try anything post-6/30, as that's when fastback was enabled by default, and there was a change in the event handling model for OS X.

pat++ · Jul 11, 2005, 10:37 PM

Safari is the best for me. It's by far the fastest browser. Camino is slow and Firefox doesn't have a native Aqua user interface...

RedHerring · Jul 11, 2005, 11:08 PM

My friends laugh at my inability to pick a browser and stick with it. I've got Camino, Firefox, Safari, and OmniWeb all installed on my computer. When a new version of one of them comes out, I grab it, give it a whirl, and then make the same decision in the long run. Each one has nice features that the others don't. For me, the ultimate browser doesn't exist... it's a combo of them all.

But for some reason, I always end up back with Safari.

mediahound · Jul 11, 2005, 11:18 PM

Why would I want to update Firefox every single night when I can run Safari and have all the speed and functionality I want? There is literally nothing added in Firefox that I want or even care about enough to suffer through it's weaknesses and hassles over Safari.

wataru · Jul 12, 2005, 08:51 AM

Who said anything about every night? Pick a build and stick with it.

Why would you bother? Maybe you haven't read the whole thread.

mediahound · Jul 12, 2005, 09:50 AM

again, why bother? i have Safari.

wataru · Jul 12, 2005, 10:26 AM

Again, read the whole thread

If you're happy with Safari, then fine. But Firefox has way more functionality than Safari, and all of your complaints about it are easily addressed.

driven · Jul 12, 2005, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by wataru

Again, read the whole thread

If you're happy with Safari, then fine. But Firefox has way more functionality than Safari, and all of your complaints about it are easily addressed.

Key things missing from Firefox for me:
- .Mac syncing. (Use quite frequently, keeps me sane to have my bookmarks synched on all my computers without resorting to any third party tools.)

- Private browsing (I'll admit to using this very infrequently, but it's kind of nice if I want to go to a job site on a work machine when connected to my home network.)

- Snapback (did I get this term right?) I use this a lot. I could live without it, but why?

- I like the look/feel of Safari much better. This is partially fixed with "themes" in FF, but that just gets me back to what Safari had in the first place. :-)

wataru · Jul 12, 2005, 12:13 PM

Driven, your complaints are not as easily addressed.

The best I can do is:
1. Bookmarks Synchronizer extension. This can work with your iDisk. See this howto.
2. Aronnax's themes. There is a brushed metal Safari theme near the bottom that is quite nice.
3. There's no Snapback, but with fastback in the recent nightlies going back is pretty much instantaneous. I've never found Snapback to be useful anyway.

Private browsing doesn't seem to be available, though a "sanitize Firefox" feature is in the nightlies.