[Sven G]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
I did check that way for Italy before posting since you claim to be from Italy, and it uses the 16:54 format. I have never seen the 16.54 format, but I haven't been in a Scandinavian country yet. There is no urgent need to standardise that anyway since there is little room for confusion. Unlike the date (and to limited amount the decimal delimiter) format.

On OS X - but on Windows, it indeed uses the 16.54 format; also, in local TV programs the most used format is that one. Anyway, it also depends on the decimal point or comma choice, eventually: of course, if the point is already used as a decimal separator, then the colon is probably better as a non-decimal time separator; if the comma is the decimal separator, the point can be used for time formats...

[Sven G]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
I personally think thousand separators are ugly and so always use spaces anyway. As for the decimal comma, I do think it makes more sense than having what is effectively a full stop (as we call periods in the UK) half way through a number. �2,50 or �1.68? I know which I'd prefer.

Then, AFAIK, in the UK (but not in the US) you also have that particular kind of "symmetric" point, halfway up, so to say (approximately as a multiplication sign): the confusion of possible formats is almost total, indeed!

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Now, can we take all this a step further?

Probably, once having gone metric everywhere on the globe (and having decided on which side to drive), the next step could be to choose between the decimal point and the comma: separators for the thousands are already "illegal" (according to ISO), so we should really choose between, say, 12 756.00 and 12 756,00 (12,756.00 and 12.756,00 both being obsolete). Point or comma?

Then, also on the time front, should we express (24-hour) time as, for example, 16:54 (US), or rather 16.54 (Europe)?

Also, should trains drive on the left (see Great Britain, Italy, France, etc.) or on the right (Germany, Denmark, etc.)?

... And so on: probably there are even more "standardisable" things!

The reason ISO doesn't use comma as thousands seperators because comma is used for decimal point! So the screen size for the smallest PowerBook would be 12,1 inches (oh, sorry, I mean 30,7 cm), not 12.1 inches (sorry again, 30.7 cm). As far as I understand it is the common way of use in contanental Europe and in South Africa.

Time format... just write 1500GMT (Oops, I mean 1500UTC for non-UK people).

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Hehe: rather than English, maybe Esperanto.

Of course, ever-changing things such as historical languages cannot - and should not - be standardised: but merely technical things such as the above formats, etc. indeed can (mainly for simplicity and consistency)...

In terms of using a common language, the Chinese has to be the choice (1.3 billion out of 6+ billion people use this language). Now, does this forum allow me to enter messages in Chinese??

You cannot really standardise (now some would argue standardize) the language use... at least in English... because it is a evoluting language. New words and new language use being added everyday, and old language use gradually phase out or forgotten by people. THis is the reason why dictionary like the Oxford English Dictionary publish new editions every few years.

Ummm, I think the French government have a deciated institute to govern the standard of the French language... is that right?

[lngtones]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Probably, once having gone metric everywhere on the globe (and having decided on which side to drive), the next step could be to choose between the decimal point and the comma: separators for the thousands are already "illegal" (according to ISO)

Do you know the reasoning behind this?

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by Sven G:

Then, also on the time front, should we express (24-hour) time as, for example, 16:54 (US), or rather 16.54 (Europe)?

OK, let's go for the ISO way! More specifically, let's use ISO 8601!

Have a look at here:
http://www.iso.org/iso/en/commcentre...fe_3.html#date

Now, I need to find the ISO reasons for comma or dot for decimal point, ISO standard for driving left or right hand side, the standard English...

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by lngtones:
Do you know the reasoning behind this?

Trying to find out why, but I suspect comma is used to avoid confusion.

Yes! To avoid confusion!! Basically in Mathematics a full stop (period for US people) is a multiplication point, and a decimal point is written as a dot in the middle (like a bullet point, but in the size of a full stop).

Also, a point can be easily mis-read by its tinny size (especially if it is hand written). A comma is more apparantly for people to read.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by veryniceguy2002:
In terms of using a common language, the Chinese has to be the choice (1.3 billion out of 6+ billion people use this language). Now, does this forum allow me to enter messages in Chinese??

You cannot really standardise (now some would argue standardize) the language use... at least in English... because it is a evoluting language. New words and new language use being added everyday, and old language use gradually phase out or forgotten by people. THis is the reason why dictionary like the Oxford English Dictionary publish new editions every few years.

Ummm, I think the French government have a deciated institute to govern the standard of the French language... is that right?

I was joking about standardizing on English. Frankly, I don't like this ideolgical obsession with standardizing everything between countries. To use a cliche, variety is the spice of life.

[Gankdawg]

Originally posted by Sven G:

Then, also on the time front, should we express (24-hour) time as, for example, 16:54 (US)

Delete the colon and you're there, e.g. 1654.

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by Gankdawg:
Delete the colon and you're there, e.g. 1654.

The problem with that approach is that, in certain contexts, 1654 (to take your example) can all too easily be misinterpreted to mean one thousand, six hundred and fifty-four.

To be honest, I am tempted to go with ISO - who specify the colon as the hours, minutes and seconds separator - on this one.

How about we agree on using the colon for times, the comma to separate the whole and fractional part of a number, and let's leave the full stop as a multiplication operator?

[Sven G]

Good points, sofar: maybe with a little too much irony (or not?) - but it's really not all that odd, eventually, to have some standard numerical formats across the world.

It's only a matter of simplicity and rationality, after all - while leaving complexity and multiplicity to more enjoyable things such as art, language, and so on...

[voodoo]

Of course the UK should go metric. Metric (SI) is a fine system of measurement. People can easily adopt and learn it. I'm very quick to get the feeling for ft and inches, although ounces and fl oz are a bit hazy. But then I've never lived in a country that uses imperial measurements.

The decimal point should ABSOULUTLY 100% be a . (point) not , (comma). This is so much more practical in science and mathematics. Writing vectors is so stupid when using a comma - try the vector (2.2 , 3.4) vs (2,2 , 3,4) .. hello?

In Spain we use colon between the hours and minutes. 09:00 - same in Norway and Iceland. AFAIK Denmark uses 09.00 but well. I'm biased towards the : separator. I like it. It works fine.

[OB1]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Frankly, I don't like this ideolgical obsession with standardizing everything between countries. To use a cliche, variety is the spice of life.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I was joking about standardizing on English. Frankly, I don't like this ideolgical obsession with standardizing everything between countries. To use a cliche, variety is the spice of life.

I agree, but the EU is a community that interacts more with each other than with other countries. Imagine for instance if NY state used imperial measurements and the other 49 states were metric. While variation is a good thing there would be certain pressure from both within and outside NY state to change to metric. That is the reason why people in the UK sometimes wonder why they aren't using metric as well sometimes.

[Sven G]

BTW, here are some links about decimal/metric time - even more challenging, as a goal:

http://zapatopi.net/metrictime.html

http://www.decimaltime.hynes.net

[Link]

This is just plain asinine.

I still say my part. If you want us all to standardize on metric you'll have to learn to drive on the other side of the road.

While you're at it.. maybe you can adapt using . as a decimal... and we'll keep our time zones crap thankyouverymuch.

I know, the 24hour clock makes more sense BUT.. I like it when my VCR flashes 12:00

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by voodoo:
I agree, but the EU is a community that interacts more with each other than with other countries. Imagine for instance if NY state used imperial measurements and the other 49 states were metric. While variation is a good thing there would be certain pressure from both within and outside NY state to change to metric. That is the reason why people in the UK sometimes wonder why they aren't using metric as well sometimes.

Within the EU it makes sense for the reason you state assuming you have in mind one day making the EU into a unitary nation like the US. That is why the US started removing our internal differences (e.g currency) over 200 years ago at the beginning of our national project.

Whether or not that ought to be the goal for the EU isn't for me to say. But I think you do would lose something if you made Italy exactly like Germany, or vice versa, and certainly if you made Italy just like Indiana. On the other hand, I am not an advocate of trying to throw artificial roadblocks in the way of natural changes. I just don't think it is necessary to force it. Especially not on those trivial little differences that make travel interesting.

[Timo]

Originally posted by Sven G:
The real question...when oh when are the US of America going metric?

Paradoxically, the US military seem to be the only ones who thoroughly adopt the metric system, even with the 24 hour clock (see the so-called "military time" - a concept which in Europe would sound rather hilarious, being actually the main "civil time"!).

It's a shame that the USA (mainly the government, but also the people) is one of the few "civilised" countries - maybe the only remaining one? - to take it so "sluggishly" (pun intented) on this matter...

As a person who works in the construction trades (where imperial measurements are a part of our everyday work), I'm guessing not in my lifetime.

But when it does come, it will be because manufacturers are making/selling enough building materials that need to be metric (say, for export). But since 90% of the U.S. economy is domestically oriented, I don't see the tipping point happening anytime soon.

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by voodoo:
I agree, but the EU is a community that interacts more with each other than with other countries. Imagine for instance if NY state used imperial measurements and the other 49 states were metric. While variation is a good thing there would be certain pressure from both within and outside NY state to change to metric. That is the reason why people in the UK sometimes wonder why they aren't using metric as well sometimes.

Exactly.

And what is a completely false argument to make is that people can competently use metric measurements at work and then imperial measures when they come home. Human society does not neatly fit into two entirely disjoint pigeon holes - what goes on in one person's private life is another person's job.

Even if there was such a neat fit, people will never be as comfortable having to think in two different measurement systems as they would be in one.

However, since there isn't, the logic for having a single international system of weights and measures is indisputable.

All we need now is for the governments of the legacy countries to work up some political courage.

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Of course the UK should go metric. Metric (SI) is a fine system of measurement. People can easily adopt and learn it. I'm very quick to get the feeling for ft and inches, although ounces and fl oz are a bit hazy. But then I've never lived in a country that uses imperial measurements.

The decimal point should ABSOULUTLY 100% be a . (point) not , (comma). This is so much more practical in science and mathematics. Writing vectors is so stupid when using a comma - try the vector (2.2 , 3.4) vs (2,2 , 3,4) .. hello?

In Spain we use colon between the hours and minutes. 09:00 - same in Norway and Iceland. AFAIK Denmark uses 09.00 but well. I'm biased towards the : separator. I like it. It works fine.

Just bear this in mind: Metric is not 100% equivalent to SI. Temperature scales are different (metric use Celcius scale, where as SI use absolute or Kevin scale; 1 degree C is equal to 1 Kevin, and 0 degree C equals to 273 Kevin in absolute scale). Other than that, both a almost the same.

As I said in the previous post in this thread, the point we typed in the keyboard is not the correct mathematical way of expressing decimal point (for countries uses point instead of comma) for decimal point! The correct way is to use a point align in the middle, instead of align bottom (align bottom is considered as the multiplication operator).

Not sure why you would write a vector in decimals if you can scale it with integers to make life easier. You would get yourself a lot of headache when you do a cross product!!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by milkmanchris:
I think had it been anyone other than the French who invented the metric system, we would have swapped years ago.

Strange tho, what we would we do without the quaterpounder with cheese.

Buy a Royal with cheese like the rest of the world (excluding the US).

Problem solved.

[Nacente]

Yes, of course!! Go the European way

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Within the EU it makes sense for the reason you state assuming you have in mind one day making the EU into a unitary nation like the US. That is why the US started removing our internal differences (e.g currency) over 200 years ago at the beginning of our national project.

Whether or not that ought to be the goal for the EU isn't for me to say. But I think you do would lose something if you made Italy exactly like Germany, or vice versa, and certainly if you made Italy just like Indiana. On the other hand, I am not an advocate of trying to throw artificial roadblocks in the way of natural changes. I just don't think it is necessary to force it. Especially not on those trivial little differences that make travel interesting.

Are you saying that New York City and Indiana are exactly the same? There is a pretty big gradient between dropping an outdated and boneheaded system of measurement for an internationally compatible standard, and eroding cultural differences. Regardless of what your view of a future Europe is.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
I did check that way for Italy before posting since you claim to be from Italy, and it uses the 16:54 format. I have never seen the 16.54 format, but I haven't been in a Scandinavian country yet. There is no urgent need to standardise that anyway since there is little room for confusion. Unlike the date (and to limited amount the decimal delimiter) format.

Playing around with the International Settings System Preference panel, Nynorsk and Svenska do appear to use the 16.54 time format.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by veryniceguy2002:
Trying to find out why, but I suspect comma is used to avoid confusion.

Yes! To avoid confusion!! Basically in Mathematics a full stop (period for US people) is a multiplication point, and a decimal point is written as a dot in the middle (like a bullet point, but in the size of a full stop).

I thought it was the other way round?

the raised dot is multiplication, at least in Germany (but we use decimal commata, with full stops as separators, e.g. 1.234.567,89)

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Playing around with the International Settings System Preference panel, Nynorsk and Svenska do appear to use the 16.54 time format.

What about bokm�l? Nynorsk is used only by a minority of the Norwegian population.

[Randman]

Originally posted by veryniceguy2002:
In terms of using a common language, the Chinese has to be the choice (1.3 billion out of 6+ billion people use this language). Now, does this forum allow me to enter messages in Chinese??

I'm not sure but I think Spanish is actually the most widely spoken language with Mandarin being second (more Chinese, but more languages and one can't group Shanghainese, Hokkien, Cantonese, etc as one).

As far as China goes, HK retains more of its British colonial roots while the mainland tends to follow American English spellings and conventions compared to British English. Not sure, but I think Japan tends to follow the American model of English more than the British as well.

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by Randman:
I'm not sure but I think Spanish is actually the most widely spoken language with Mandarin being second (more Chinese, but more languages and one can't group Shanghainese, Hokkien, Cantonese, etc as one).

As far as China goes, HK retains more of its British colonial roots while the mainland tends to follow American English spellings and conventions compared to British English. Not sure, but I think Japan tends to follow the American model of English more than the British as well.

No. Mandarin Chinese is actually the most widely spoken (roughly 1.3 billion). Bear in mind a lot of people in mainland CHina speak their local dialet, but they also speak Mandarin Chinese. The Mandarin Chinese is the offically language in China, and the Chinese Government determined it is the language to be used for schools, government offices etc. English is second

I would say American English in mainland CHina and Japan are mainly due to availability of US media (CNN, litature from US, Hollywood movies) in those countries, compare to from the UK.

[Mr. Bob]

I just have one question for some of you.

Why do you want to have all countries use the same measurements? Personally, I think countries should try to be different from other countries. Gives the world extra Flava.

Its sad, I live around the world, and every year, the world is getting more like America, or some other �international standard�.

Now, I am American, I just wish nations would try to not act like other nations. Being in Japan, people surly try to act like us.

Mearsuments are just the beginning. Rich cultures are dying out the world over to become the �international standard�.

I say, if you want to live like another nation, live there. But, I give the world another 5 to 7 decades, and everyone will be speaking English, wearing pants and shirts, and using the metric system. Hell, everyone will probably be thinking the same way too.

Ireland should either make up their own system, or go back to feet and such. Hell, Countries UNITE, and be yourselves. Stop speaking English, or hell, make up your own language.

Note: This post probably does not make much sense. Bash at will.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
What about bokm�l? Nynorsk is used only by a minority of the Norwegian population.

If you really wanted to know, you could have just fired up System Preferences --> International --> Formats --> Show all regions --> bokm�l...

But yes, bokm�l uses the 16.54 time format, as well.

[Spheric Harlot]

One brilliant reason for using internationally standardized measurements: Fewer accidents. There was an accident involving a roller coaster recently caused by incorrectly specced parts due to metric/imperial measurement confusion. NASA lost a million-dollar space probe a couple of years back due to metric/imperial unit confusion that threw it off course.

Those are the more spectacular cases, but I'm sure they're just the very prominent tip of the iceberg. Crap like that is sure to happen to any company that operates internationally, and it costs millions.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
If you really wanted to know, you could have just fired up System Preferences --> International --> Formats --> Show all regions --> bokm�l...

But yes, bokm�l uses the 16.54 time format, as well.

I'd have said the colon is standard in Norway (both languages for that matter) but I'm not sure now.

NRK programoversikt

On that page both dot and colon are used.
I'm 100% sure people use colon more but NRK seems to have some aspirations towards the dot. Since the dot is also the separator between dates it is highly suspicious that the time is separated with a dot in Nynorsk and Bokm�l as well. Try 17.05 - which means then either 17th may OR five minutes past five pm. Colon is definitely the standard separator in Norway. But both seem to be applicable I guess. Silly Apple.

[ReggieX]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
I thought it was the other way round?
the raised dot is multiplication, at least in Germany (but we use decimal commata, with full stops as separators, e.g. 1.234.567,89)

I'm with the keyboard man on this one, when I was doing Physics, the raised dot was multiplication. But I still prefer period (.) for decimals: 1,000,000.99

[ReggieX]

Originally posted by Mr. Bob:
This post probably does not make much sense. Bash at will.

You're right, it doesn't make much sense. With trade being completely international, unit standards make things better for all concerned.
Worrying about a culture dissolving because everyone uses the same measurement units is silly.

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by ReggieX:
Worrying about a culture dissolving because everyone uses the same measurement units is silly.

Precisely.

What really irritates me, though, is people in the UK who advocate the metric system in general but still insist on ridiculous exceptions, like miles per hour on the road and pints of beer in the pub.

Get a grip folks. What sort of pathetic national identity do we British have if it is going to be eroded by driving at 120 km/h and buying a half litre of Stella?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Precisely.

What really irritates me, though, is people in the UK who advocate the metric system in general but still insist on ridiculous exceptions, like miles per hour on the road and pints of beer in the pub.

Get a grip folks. What sort of pathetic national identity do we British have if it is going to be eroded by driving at 120 km/h and buying a half litre of Stella?

You'll always buy a 'pint' at the pub even if you go metric - a 'pint' has long since become synonymous with 'a large beer'. Half a liter is so darn close to a pint that you wouldn't notice any difference if the glasses would be changed. That is such a non issue.

For instance in Norway a 'pint' of beer is called 'halvliter �l'. Literally means half a liter of beer. Couple of years ago the taxes on beer (and alcohol) was raised in Norway and to keep prices the same some bars resorted to selling 0.4 liter beers. The people still called them 'halvliter' even if some cleverly renamed it 'norsk halvliter'

Either way, it is a name for the concept of a large beer. That doesn't change when you go metric! The slight downside is that an imperial pint is 0.068 liters more than half a liter so the 'pints' might shrink a wee bit.

[philzilla]

Originally posted by voodoo:
You'll always buy a 'pint' at the pub even if you go metric - a 'pint' has long since become synonymous with 'a large beer'. Half a liter is so darn close to a pint that you wouldn't notice any difference if the glasses would be changed. That is such a non issue.

For instance in Norway a 'pint' of beer is called 'halvliter �l'. Literally means half a liter of beer. Couple of years ago the taxes on beer (and alcohol) was raised in Norway and to keep prices the same some bars resorted to selling 0.4 liter beers. The people still called them 'halvliter' even if some cleverly renamed it 'norsk halvliter'

Either way, it is a name for the concept of a large beer. That doesn't change when you go metric! The slight downside is that an imperial pint is 0.068 liters more than half a liter so the 'pints' might shrink a wee bit.

something which annoys me, is when i hear people referring to "a big pint of milk," and "a smaller pint of milk" in relation to 1 litre & 1/2 litre cartons. i feel like slapping them.

[ReggieX]

And yet according to the menu at one of our locals, a "half pint" is really 5/8 of a "pint," go figure!

[kennethmac2000]

Originally posted by voodoo:
For instance in Norway a 'pint' of beer is called 'halvliter �l'. Literally means half a liter of beer.

lol. You say "literally means" as if that wasn't what it really means! Halvliter �l means a half litre of beer. Simple.

There is absolutely no reason on the face of the planet why people in the UK couldn't start asking for a half litre of beer in the pub. Contrary to popular belief, we are not genetically programmed to ask for pints, nor is there any demonstrable societal benefit in the continued serving of the aforementioned substance in 568 ml quantities.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
lol. You say "literally means" as if that wasn't what it really means! Halvliter �l means a half litre of beer. Simple.

The point was precisely that it DOESN'T.

"Halvliter �l" literally means "half a litre of beer", but in reality, it refers to 0.4 litres - the "Norsk halvliter"!

If you're gonna split hairs, you should at least be correct.

[Sven G]

OTOH, someone who might request "Ein Halbliter �l" in Germany would have an unpleasant surprise - at least from the drinking point of view!

Just to say that the positive cultural differences indeed remain untouched, even with common units of measurement - as it should be...

[f1000]

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
Someone asked me about this last night actually. Whilst, in theory, I would be quite happy to use only seconds and multiples thereof (kiloseconds, megaseconds, etc), I realise that time is somewhat unique, not least because of its inescapable link to the movement of the sun and the earth, around which the current system for the measurement of times and dates is based.

Base 12 is divisible by 2,3,4, and 6 whereas Base 10 is only divisible by 2 and 5. That's why you see Base 12 in the measurement of all things circular (clocks, protractors).

[Sven G]

Originally posted by f1000:
Base 12 is divisible by 2,3,4, and 6 whereas Base 10 is only divisible by 2 and 5. That's why you see Base 12 in the measurement of all things circular (clocks, protractors).

Actually, maybe it would be better to move to a base 8 (or base 12) system? The base 8 system would be more "symmetric" for clocks, etc., and essentially based on the principle that the human thumbs are different from the remaining fingers: so, if you count, for example, by touching each finger with the thumb, then 8 (2x4) would be the most "natural" base for numbering.

All this (i.e., going beyond a merely "practical" metrication) is just utopia at the current state of things - but interesting, anyway...

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by f1000:
Base 12 is divisible by 2,3,4, and 6 whereas Base 10 is only divisible by 2 and 5. That's why you see Base 12 in the measurement of all things circular (clocks, protractors).

No, not necessary. Ask the Mathematican and they will say angle measurement are done in radians, which is not an integer based system!

Bear in mind, a circle has 2pi radians!

[f1000]

Originally posted by veryniceguy2002:
No, not necessary. Ask the Mathematican and they will say angle measurement are done in radians, which is not an integer based system!

Bear in mind, a circle has 2pi radians!

Pray tell me, how would you set up a clock in radians? Do you even realize why that would be an untenable solution?

I'd like my answer by 76.969020013 radians (12:15 PM, for you non-math types).

[fireside]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Buy a Royal with cheese like the rest of the world (excluding the US).

Problem solved.

i said that two days before your post.