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Sakino · Oct 13, 2003, 06:44 PM

Do you think apple should halt the production of 15 inch powerbooks, and recall the problem childs of the 15 inch al pbs?
From my observations they are a growing thing on most powerbooks, and even if you get yours repaired its going to grow back.
IMO its going to cost apple tons of money to send these back from repair, wouldn't it just be smart to halt production and figure out the problems?

How could apple even let something like this out their door?

MacsGalor · Oct 13, 2003, 06:53 PM

They are not all bad, sure there are more than there should be however, it only seems like they are cuz all the people with problems come here and post, the ones w/o problems are happy and not looking for a place to complain

alex_kac · Oct 13, 2003, 07:08 PM

We have two PowerBook 15 AL machines. One has a latch issue that was fixed by following some directions on the apple support pages. The other has not a single issue - together they are great.

I can't see any reason for Apple to stop production or recall. Its normal for there to be a bad batch here or there in ANY manufacturing process.

Waveman · Oct 13, 2003, 09:01 PM

We know that there are problems with some 15" Aluminum PowerBooks. What we don't know is how prevalent the problems are. Only Apple has that information, and that's what they'll use to decide how to proceed. (However, I do think that they do have an obligation to make everyone's PowerBook right or offer a refund.)

Maflynn · Oct 13, 2003, 09:59 PM

Do you think apple should halt the production of 15 inch powerbooks, and recall the problem childs of the 15 inch al pbs?
From my observations they are a growing thing on most powerbooks, and even if you get yours repaired its going to grow back.
IMO its going to cost apple tons of money to send these back from repair, wouldn't it just be smart to halt production and figure out the problems?

How could apple even let something like this out their door?

Your kidding right? I have only heard of two problems, the latch and the white spots and both don't seem to be widespread enough to cause a recall.

It wouldn't be cheaper for apple to halt production and recall it. don't forget they need to pay the salaries if the workers on the line building them and don't forget about the bad press that would generate from the halt. It would do far more damage to Apples market share.

Not to discount the people who did get defective units, but I have seen posts (including mine) of people who have received good working Pbs so all in all I don't think its a good idea.

Mike

sorkinesque · Oct 13, 2003, 10:25 PM

if they can trace the problems to any particular time on the production line or parts vendor or shipper they should do that and call all of the potential customers. ask them if they've noticed any white spots or other problems. if they have, invite them to a retail store or have a recovery box at their door the next morning- and give them a choice of free BT mouse or keyboard for their trouble.

if the problem seems to be indiscriminate instruct all applecare reps, no matter if they work in ADC or .edu or whatever, that any customers who call up with a whitespotted pbook is to be sent a box immediately and offered the same BT mouse or keyboard deal. if the rate of defective products is really high, call all purchasers.

if they've screwed up then they should make it right.

forcelite · Oct 14, 2003, 03:16 AM

I know I got the 4th batch of 15' al's and the thing is flawless.

I know a freind that has one and his is flawless.

I see many people post how thiers has a simple problem, defiantly not all of them

Ther eare tons of people that have nothing wrong with thier laptops.

I seriously dont know how much I can take of people being clueless and not seeing the whole story.

not to knock Sakino, but that post is a little harsh. Are you serisouly convinced that every 15' PB that comes out the door is a flop?

I hope not, cause there are way more good PB's that bad ones

Mac Zealot · Oct 14, 2003, 05:15 AM

Trolling or not, i don't care what you say but numbers don't always lie

The fact that out of nearly 40 people ONE FOURTH said that they were bad enough to warrant a recall is horrifying.

SplijinX · Oct 14, 2003, 07:01 AM

Keep in mind people who post here either really love their macs or have some real serious issues they are trying to get help on so it's not a real good sampling of the population. Apple should definitely work on getting these kinks out, but by no means issue a massive recall especially since it eats up alot of $$$.

StiZeven · Oct 14, 2003, 07:39 AM

I wonder how many of those 'NO!' votes aren't really from satisfied 15" AlBook owners with perfect machines, but from Mac die-hards who simply will not let this poll make Apple look bad.

I've personally counted WAY more than 12 people who've gotten bum machines on MacNN alone (not to mention MANY other Mac forums as well), so either half of them failed to catch this post, or they are keeping their silence.

Either way, I hope Apple acknowledges and fixes this problem soon as the 15" AlBook is the one I've been waiting to purchase.

The amount of people reporting white spotted screens is nothing short of overwhelming. Yes, most people with problems post them at message forums, but there are also the same amount of people out there who don't know about message forums and who've never had the chance to voice it.

PoisonTooth · Oct 14, 2003, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
Trolling or not, i don't care what you say but numbers don't always lie

The fact that out of nearly 40 people ONE FOURTH said that they were bad enough to warrant a recall is horrifying.

40 respondents is hardly a statistically relevant sample.

bcaslis · Oct 14, 2003, 09:42 AM

Although I do think there are some 15" Al with problems (i'm on my second, my first did have problems and yes, I voted no on the recall poll), I don't think they are overwhelming. My local dealer who did replace my PowerBook and who I've bought many machines from, has only had mine returned/exchanged. I showed them the white spots and they didn't deny they were there but said this was the first they had seen. Since they did replace my machine, they had no reason to lie. If the problems were really as overwhelming as it would seem from this forum I think the dealers would be seeing more problems with returns.

Originally posted by StiZeven:
I wonder how many of those 'NO!' votes aren't really from satisfied 15" AlBook owners with perfect machines, but from Mac die-hards who simply will not let this poll make Apple look bad.

I've personally counted WAY more than 12 people who've gotten bum machines on MacNN alone (not to mention MANY other Mac forums as well), so either half of them failed to catch this post, or they are keeping their silence.

Either way, I hope Apple acknowledges and fixes this problem soon as the 15" AlBook is the one I've been waiting to purchase.

The amount of people reporting white spotted screens is nothing short of overwhelming. Yes, most people with problems post them at message forums, but there are also the same amount of people out there who don't know about message forums and who've never had the chance to voice it.

EvanV · Oct 14, 2003, 09:46 AM

Most of the problems I've read were people who got the first batch (Sept. 18 and onward to about the first of October)....

I haven't seen many complaints about people recieving them in October thus far....

Montanan · Oct 14, 2003, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by forcelite:
There are tons of people that have nothing wrong with thier laptops.

I seriously dont know how much I can take of people being clueless and not seeing the whole story.

not to knock Sakino, but that post is a little harsh. Are you serisouly convinced that every 15' PB that comes out the door is a flop?

I hope not, cause there are way more good PB's that bad ones

Exactly! The new PB is a great machine. What's happening here is that a relatively small number of people with problems are venting their frustrations by making a LOT of posts, here and elsewhere ... and by doing so they're managing to convince other folks that the sky is falling. Chicken Little would be proud of some of you.

nobitacu · Oct 14, 2003, 10:06 AM

Well, you can't blame all this on Apple. We're the ones who were pushing them to hurry up and make a Al 15" and push it out of the market. They didn't have time to take their time to make it near perfect quality. This is what happenes when a product is rushed out of the market.

Ming

elvis2000 · Oct 14, 2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by PoisonTooth:
40 respondents is hardly a statistically relevant sample.

30 is all you need for a statistically valid t-test. However, for these results to be relevant, you would have to compare to results for revB 12" PBs or similar.

jw

romanesq · Oct 14, 2003, 11:40 AM

Recall? We don't need no stinkin recall.

TheIceMan · Oct 14, 2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by nobitacu:
Well, you can't blame all this on Apple. We're the ones who were pushing them to hurry up and make a Al 15" and push it out of the market. They didn't have time to take their time to make it near perfect quality. This is what happenes when a product is rushed out of the market.

Ming

No offense Ming, but that is just ridiculous reasoning. Every company has a deadline and every company wants to put out their best product on the market for consumers. You are blaming Mac users for problematic Al 15"? If that were the case then should we blame all the users of those failed Firestone tires? We could use your argument to say that users demand the best tires and they want it available to them as soon as possible. For this reason, Bridgestone Corp (maker of Firestone tires) had to "rush out" poorly-constructed tires?

Peabo · Oct 14, 2003, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by TheIceMan:
No offense Ming, but that is just ridiculous reasoning. Every company has a deadline and every company wants to put out their best product on the market for consumers. You are blaming Mac users for problematic Al 15"? If that were the case then should we blame all the users of those failed Firestone tires? We could use your argument to say that users demand the best tires and they want it available to them as soon as possible. For this reason, Bridgestone Corp (maker of Firestone tires) had to "rush out" poorly-constructed tires?

The only time when this does occur is with software.

Loopydude · Oct 14, 2003, 03:10 PM

I know two people who got Al 15" PBs, and both have problems:

Person #1 has white spots and four dead pixels.

Person #2 has the latch issue and two dead pixels (granted, two dead pixels isn't all that bad).

Both complain that the battery life sucks ass. Person #1 says he gets 1.5 hours tops using Airport with screen at half brightnes. He considers this unacceptable, but isn't sure what he can do about it except ditch Apple.

Person #1 may send his back. He is mighty pissed, and, for the record, says Apple's handling of his complaints also sucks ass.

Person #2 is a complete PC-hating technophobe so will never switch from the Mac even if her PB explodes and blows off both her arms. She is also mighty pissed but won't do anything about it.

There it is, in a nutshell, as far as I can see. These are the only two people I know with the new Al books, so Apple is 0 for 2 currently. A guy at work is getting one soon, so we'll see if they wind up being 1 for 2 or 0 for 3.

romeosc · Oct 14, 2003, 03:22 PM

The people responding to this poll are not average mac users.

Many PowerBook users use the PB as a tool and probably don;t notice the latch issue or white spots as abnormal until they are told "Hold your tounge to the left, stand on one foot and look in the mirror to see if....."

Some problems are problems and need to be corrected, some are minor inconvienences

Sakino · Oct 14, 2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by SplijinX:
Keep in mind people who post here either really love their macs or have some real serious issues they are trying to get help on so it's not a real good sampling of the population. Apple should definitely work on getting these kinks out, but by no means issue a massive recall especially since it eats up alot of $$$.

Well the sorry part abou it is that fact that apple is not working well with me on my current powerbook problems. I have been working with them since day one and they keep on telling me to call back and they will know the next time. Well to tell you the truth im going to tell them my exact thoughts now. I'm on hold with a product specialist, and i will no get off the phone until I do get a new powerbook shipped to me.

Drakino · Oct 14, 2003, 05:08 PM

Should "product X" be recalled by Apple, because *gasp* a minor amount of people are having problems and posting about them to a TROUBLESHOOTING and discussion forum?

No.

You don't base recalls on how vocal people with problems are compared to those without any problems. You base recalls on if there is a glaring problem, and repair centers have the numbers to prove this.

I'm getting really tired of everyone making the new 15 inch Powerbook to be the worst thing Apple has ever released. It is very popular, thus more people are buying this specific unit, and thus, a slightly higher amount of problem discussions will be started.

mmintler · Oct 14, 2003, 05:32 PM

I personally believe Apple will not recall...warranted or not. I just got off the phone with 'AppleCare regarding the white spots. According to the tech. I am the first person he has spoken to with this issue....lol.

My latch was loose and I adjusted it according to the instructions given here and it seems to be holding. When I asked the tech about this "fix' he basically gasped! He highly recommended against it. He said that he is familiar with this issue and that they are repairing them.

PeterKG · Oct 14, 2003, 07:32 PM

It's a good thing normal people don't read or waste time on these forums. Otherwise they would not enjoy their purchase, and be thinking "are they all bad?"

KP* · Oct 14, 2003, 07:52 PM

I don't want to speculate on the true number of perfect PBs to defective ones, but for the first week I had mine, I chimed in on all the threads asking who had a perfect one. Mine is free of white spots and dead pixels and is generally stable.

However, after the first week, a few small but sometimes very troublesome problems have become more constant. My latch is very unreliable (this is the problem where it doesn't swing far enough sideways, not the one that can be fixed by bending the latch down.) I've heard that closing the lid faster / more firmly works, and it does seem to help, but not always.

Also when running on battery power, I get a kernel panic on wake from sleep one out of every three or four times. Very annoying when I'm in a meeting and have to keep everyone waiting for three minutes while the 'book reboots. The latch problem compounds this because every time the latch pops open it wakes from sleep, increasing the liklihood of a KP.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was once one of those new owners saying my PB is perfect, and with further use I realize it is not. I don't want to scare anyone, but it's possible that just because not all of them are obviously DOA right out of the box, they may still have problems.

kjo · Oct 14, 2003, 09:26 PM

Well, as I've posted a couple of times, I've had mine since Sept. 24. Because of all of the reports here, I've been pretty vigilant about checking for white spots. None here. No dead pixels. My latch works perfectly. No crashes, no kernel panics. I think it's a fabulous machine.

Link · Oct 14, 2003, 10:36 PM

I'm calling the ones who underestimate the situation trolls, sorry but either A: you didn't buy a powerbook, or B: you think apple is too good to do bad.

Or something along those lines.

Thought: any machine that has major defects (and yes a malfunctioning screen is a major defect), from within the first 30 days of being purchased should be replaced.

After that they can be fixed 3 times, still probs? replace that sucker.

That USUALLY IS corporate policy, from what I've seen apple likes to push the blame onto someone else's lap

Call my idea extreme? Go buy a defective HP and call them.

I'm not exactly impressed with the way apple handles their customers, because no matter how good your experience was, it doesn't make the bad ones any better

And obviously, there are many bad cases.

From what I've seen so far.

1/6 of powerbook owners receive defective powerbooks

1/2 of those 1/6 have had nothing but problems with apple

2/3 of that 1/2 of that 1/6 don't plan to buy apple products again if they are going to be treated like that.

PowerTower Fan · Oct 14, 2003, 11:41 PM

I work for a campus reseller. At the beginning of September we ordered 100 Powerbooks (originally TiBooks but upgraded to Al's once they were released). Since the Powerbook's arrived, we've probably sold around half of them, and in that time I've only seen 1 come back because of major issues. This is just what I've seen from all the one's that we've sold and I know if the issue was as big as its being mentioned on here, we would have seen much more people come back complaining to us.

I will give some people credit though, working with Apple at times isn't fun and their support isn't better than other PC manufacturers.

AdamSomers · Oct 14, 2003, 11:55 PM

NO!!! We recalled our governer here in california and just look what happened, we are Fu*ked! The word 'recall' leaves a sour taste in my mouth, as it is associated with weightlifting, Nazis, and Kindergarten Cop. Forget recalls, fix whatever f*ups occur. Apple should give us all free 40GB ipods. I'd let the white spots fly for that. If not, my new PB (which is coming tomorrow) better be damn spiffy.

macxtal · Oct 15, 2003, 12:51 PM

Statistics gathered here are not a proper random sample of production. Do not speak about things you are obviously very ignorant about - Apple would have put the machines through QA, and made sure that their returns would have been within acceptable limits prior to releasing the product.

My 15 is flawless. People come here to complain. This is not a random sample population. Not even CLOSE.

sorkinesque · Oct 15, 2003, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by macxtal:
Statistics gathered here are not a proper random sample of production. Do not speak about things you are obviously very ignorant about - Apple would have put the machines through QA, and made sure that their returns would have been within acceptable limits prior to releasing the product.

My 15 is flawless. People come here to complain. This is not a random sample population. Not even CLOSE.

though i dislike the tone of your message, you are right in that the macnn boards won't offer a random sample of all new powerbook owners. we're the definition of a self-selecting population. apple has the info, or can easily generate the info as i previously described, that would answer the original poster's question.

yet, for someone who asks others to "not speak about things you are obviously very ignorant about" the wording of your assurance that "Apple would have put the machines through QA, and made sure that their returns would have been within acceptable limits prior to releasing the product" ( emphasis added) makes me suspect you do not know much about the testing process apple used or the results returned. if i'm wrong please tell us all what measures apple employed to test the 15 inch screens, what problem was missed, and how that defect was corrected.

if apple addressed the concerns raised in this forum, and others, in as transparent and honest a manner as possible we might all be better off.

oh and btw i'd suggest that you not cite your own flawless pbook as evidence in a post deriding others for not seeking out a statistically appropriate sample.

mattcass · Oct 15, 2003, 07:39 PM

I've been too busy enjoying my perfect 15" Al to come on here and post all the good things about it.