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eSATA-->Thunderbolt adapter?
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Oneota
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Feb 24, 2011, 10:19 AM
 
I'm not well-versed enough in the intricacies of either LightPeak (Thunderbolt) or eSATA to know whether it's technically feasible, so I'm hoping maybe someone else is.

What do you think the possibilities are of someone producing an eSATA-->Thunderbolt adapter, to allow all the existing eSATA hardware to connect to the new MBPs (and future iMacs/Mac Pros/etc, one would assume)? The server Mac Mini could really use this to make up for the lack of decent I/O now that we don't have an Xserve to buy anymore.
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Feb 24, 2011, 10:38 AM
 
Thunderbolt� Technology

Developed by Intel (under the code name Light Peak), and brought to market with technical collaboration from Apple. Thunderbolt technology is a new, high-speed, dual-protocol I/O technology designed for performance, simplicity, and flexibility. This high-speed data transfer technology features the following:


Dual-channel 10 Gbps per port
Bi-directional
Dual-protocol (PCI Express* and DisplayPort*)
Compatible with existing DisplayPort devices
Daisy-chained devices
Electrical or optical cables
Low latency with highly accurate time synchronization
Uses native protocol software drivers
Power over cable for bus-powered devices

Intel's Thunderbolt controllers interconnect a PC and other devices, transmitting and receiving packetized traffic for both PCIe and DisplayPort protocols.

[…]

Extend to reach other I/O technologies by using adapters that use widely available PCI Express controllers. It's simple to create a Gigabit Ethernet, or FireWire, or eSATA adapters using existing device PCI Express drivers.
Thunderbolt products require a controller chip supplied by Intel and a small connector that would be included in platforms supporting this technology. The Thunderbolt controller chip provides protocol switching capabilities to support the two protocols over a single cable. Intel is making its controller chip available to the industry, and is working with other component manufacturers to deliver the Thunderbolt connectors and cables.
You'll be able to run anything that works via PCIe through Thunderbolt once adapters become available - this connector will replace ExpressCard entirely, I suspect.

Apple page:
http://www.apple.com/thunderbolt/

MacBook Pro now gives you access to a world of high-resolution displays and high-speed peripherals with one compact port. That’s because Thunderbolt is based on two fundamental technologies: PCI Express and DisplayPort.

PCI Express is the technology that links all the high-performance components in a Mac. And it’s built into Thunderbolt. Which means you can connect external devices like RAID arrays and video capture solutions directly to MacBook Pro — and get PCI Express performance. That’s a first for notebooks. Thunderbolt also provides 10 watts of power to peripherals, so you can tackle workstation-class projects on the go. With PCI Express technology, you can use existing USB and FireWire peripherals — even connect to Gigabit Ethernet and Fibre Channel networks — using simple adapters.

And because Thunderbolt is based on DisplayPort technology, the video standard for high-resolution displays, any Mini DisplayPort display plugs right into the Thunderbolt port. To connect a DisplayPort, DVI, HDMI, or VGA display, just use an existing adapter.
     
Oneota  (op)
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Feb 24, 2011, 11:08 AM
 
Hmm...so it sounds like not only is eSATA a distinct possibility, but so are even more server-oriented technologies like Fibre Channel (at 10 Gbps!).

Let's get this sucker into the Mac Mini, stat!
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Oneota  (op)
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Feb 24, 2011, 11:10 AM
 
I'm guessing there will need to be splitters or hubs of some sort to use a display at the same time as an external device, though, correct? Or would it be a SCSI kind of thing, where you'd just plug the display into the last device on the chain?
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Spheric Harlot
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Feb 24, 2011, 11:13 AM
 
Probably both - like Firewire.
     
OreoCookie
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Feb 24, 2011, 12:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oneota View Post
I'm guessing there will need to be splitters or hubs of some sort to use a display at the same time as an external device, though, correct?
No, you just daisy chain everything. The display need not be the last device in this chain.
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Spheric Harlot
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Feb 24, 2011, 12:07 PM
 
Or hub 'em.
     
Eug
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Feb 24, 2011, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oneota View Post
Let's get this sucker into the Mac Mini, stat!
Hopefully the MacBook Air too.

That would allow me to get that 11". Then I wouldn't have to keep my MacBook Pro just for the FW support.
     
Oneota  (op)
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Feb 24, 2011, 01:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
No, you just daisy chain everything. The display need not be the last device in this chain.
Unless you're using a legacy display (like....everything that exists now) that doesn't have a Thunderbolt port, in which case it either would need to be the last device in the chain, or hooked to a hub.
( Last edited by Oneota; Feb 24, 2011 at 01:20 PM. )
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Feb 24, 2011, 01:46 PM
 
If LightP er, I mean ThunderLightingBolt is so great, why is it only granted one port that gets taken up if you want an external display? That seems like the lamest decision in this new line. And if it's so easily adaptable to the other standards, why didn't another ThunderCatLightningBolt port end up replacing Firewire or one of the USB ports? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy Firewire is still around on the laptops if only for one more round, but it looks like Apple's marketing doesn't add up to reality.

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OreoCookie
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Feb 24, 2011, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oneota View Post
Unless you're using a legacy display (like....everything that exists now) that doesn't have a Thunderbolt port, in which case it either would need to be the last device in the chain, or hooked to a hub.
Then yes, you're right, it'd have to be last or you'd need a hub.
But I did understand your post differently, I don't think you've mentioned you want to connect a display with a legacy port.
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Feb 24, 2011, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
If LightP er, I mean ThunderLightingBolt is so great, why is it only granted one port that gets taken up if you want an external display? That seems like the lamest decision in this new line.
I suppose the reason is that the graphics card can only drive two, not three displays. If they added a second Tunderbolt port, they'd have to be inequivalent (one supports displays, the other one doesn't).
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Feb 24, 2011, 01:56 PM
 
You really think that's the kind of "logic" Apple used? If true, ouch, that's hellalame. That would mean they count on their customers being too dumb to understand that one port is capable of driving a display while another is not. If Apple preserves that stance I predict few will adopt this new standard on the Mac side.

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CharlesS
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Feb 24, 2011, 02:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I suppose the reason is that the graphics card can only drive two, not three displays. If they added a second Tunderbolt port, they'd have to be inequivalent (one supports displays, the other one doesn't).
Which brings up the question of why exactly they chose to merge it with the DisplayPort. It's confusing, to say the least. Since Thunderbolt can do everything FW800 can do and more and is fully adaptable to FireWire 800, and since almost no one (statistically speaking) has FW800 devices these days, giving Thunderbolt its own dedicated port and putting it in FW800's place would make perfect sense, paving the way for the replacement of all the rest of the ports with Thunderbolt (saving maybe one USB port for legacy key drives).

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Feb 24, 2011, 03:08 PM
 
My best guess would be that they wanted to avoid the cries of "but I need my so-and-so port for my legacy equipment b/c I don't have any adaptors right now" so they kept all the older ports around until the peripherals/accessory market takes off. I wouldn't be surprised to see the removal of the FW800 port on the next revision.

And by not altering what ports are used, doesn't that remove the need to make any modifications to the manufacturing of the external case?
     
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Feb 24, 2011, 03:16 PM
 
Single connector for everything. Display, storage, input/output devices, pro video, pro audio, AND networking. Plus 10 watts of power per port.

One connector to rule them all, with a simple $40 breakout box to supply a hub for legacy devices via the PCIe protocol.

The only bummer is the current 6-device limit. That makes storage archive a little difficult, but those cases ought to be fairly rare.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Feb 24, 2011, 03:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by -Q- View Post
My best guess would be that they wanted to avoid the cries of "but I need my so-and-so port for my legacy equipment b/c I don't have any adaptors right now" so they kept all the older ports around until the peripherals/accessory market takes off. I wouldn't be surprised to see the removal of the FW800 port on the next revision.
Yup.

Nobody who depends on these machines for his livelihood would buy one without the certainty of it working seamlessly within existing environments.

I'm getting the i7 13", and should Thunderbolt turn out to be a dud (botched implementation, botched marketing, torpedoed by competition, whatever), there's no loss, because I've still got all the ports I need to continue working until my next machine is due.
     
Oneota  (op)
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Feb 24, 2011, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Then yes, you're right, it'd have to be last or you'd need a hub.
But I did understand your post differently, I don't think you've mentioned you want to connect a display with a legacy port.
Well, everything that existed prior to today is a "legacy" port, though, right? There aren't any displays on the market with Thunderbolt (pass-through or otherwise) built-in.
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Spheric Harlot
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Feb 24, 2011, 05:25 PM
 
Hub it.
     
OreoCookie
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Feb 24, 2011, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Which brings up the question of why exactly they chose to merge it with the DisplayPort.
My guess is that they want to use it for really everything -- that's the whole purpose of Light Peak aka Thunderbolt. If Intel fully backs this new standard and introduces it on its next generation of chip sets, I'm sure it'll be quickly adopted.

I really hope it will be quickly adopted and I'm glad Apple went with a plug that cannot be inserted the wrong way (what kind of bone head designed standard USB plugs?!?).
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Spheric Harlot
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Feb 24, 2011, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
My guess is that they want to use it for really everything -- that's the whole purpose of Light Peak aka Thunderbolt. If Intel fully backs this new standard and introduces it on its next generation of chip sets, I'm sure it'll be quickly adopted.

I really hope it will be quickly adopted and I'm glad Apple went with a plug that cannot be inserted the wrong way (what kind of bone head designed standard USB plugs?!?).
I've seen a FW 400 port shredded due to the owner plugging in his hard drive the wrong way round.
     
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Feb 24, 2011, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I've seen a FW 400 port shredded due to the owner plugging in his hard drive the wrong way round.
Make something idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot
Originally Posted by Oneota View Post
Well, everything that existed prior to today is a "legacy" port, though, right? There aren't any displays on the market with Thunderbolt (pass-through or otherwise) built-in.
Actually, it seems that any DisplayPort plug/device (be it a monitor or a DisplayPort-VGA adapter will just work, there are no `Thunderbolt'-ready monitors, any monitor that works now will work with a Thunderbolt port. But you were right about one thing: any DisplayPort device needs to be last on the chain. To quote arstechnica:
Originally Posted by arstechnica
Existing Mini DisplayPort-equipped monitors are already compatible and can be plugged in directly, and Mini DisplayPort adapters for VGA, DVI, or HDMI will also work. Intel said that adapters can be made using a Thunderbolt controller and common PCI bridges to adapt existing FireWire, USB, eSATA, and even Ethernet connectors.
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Feb 24, 2011, 07:24 PM
 
Thunderbolt is the first technology in a long time that I'm genuinely excited about.
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CharlesS
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Feb 24, 2011, 08:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
My guess is that they want to use it for really everything -- that's the whole purpose of Light Peak aka Thunderbolt. If Intel fully backs this new standard and introduces it on its next generation of chip sets, I'm sure it'll be quickly adopted.
Yeah, I just question why they chose to put it in the DisplayPort, since you typically don't have more than one of those on the machine. I guess if the MDP connector eventually becomes "the" LightPeak connector, then it won't seem as strange anymore, but right now that port's not just a LightPeak port, it also has to be a full DisplayPort, and does the DisplayPort controller even allow you to have, say seven ports, à la the iMac's current complement?

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Feb 24, 2011, 09:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I've seen a FW 400 port shredded due to the owner plugging in his hard drive the wrong way round.
Wow - he must have really pushed on it - those things can't be plugged in upside down with a normal amount of force.
     
rumplestiltskin
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Mar 6, 2011, 02:39 PM
 
Thunderbolt to eSata hub...oh yes! Give me five eSata ports and a Thunderbolt passthrough and I'm ready to buy.
     
CharlesS
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Mar 6, 2011, 03:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by hayesk View Post
Wow - he must have really pushed on it - those things can't be plugged in upside down with a normal amount of force.
They can more easily if you use a cable with a cheaply built connector.

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Spheric Harlot
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Mar 6, 2011, 03:15 PM
 
It was a cable that came with a LaCie brick drive, into an eMac (which didn't have the tightest-fitting sockets ever).

Only time I've ever seen that happen, though.
     
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Mar 6, 2011, 03:22 PM
 
Since Thunderbolt just exposes PCIe on the remote end, the adapter can use existing PCIe-(e)SATA chips.

But it also means, just like existing PCIe cards for Mac Pros and ExpressCards for MacBook Pros, it's going to need drivers for OS X users so you can't just grab any adapter and expect it to work well.
     
CharlesS
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Mar 6, 2011, 04:11 PM
 
This is true. However, if Thunderbolt ends up making it onto the MacBook Air and the other consumer lines, writing OS X drivers for Thunderbolt adapters will be a much more financially feasible option for companies than the current situation of selling to a niche within a niche.

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Mar 6, 2011, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
It was a cable that came with a LaCie brick drive, into an eMac (which didn't have the tightest-fitting sockets ever).

Only time I've ever seen that happen, though.
I've seen it. It often doesn't do any harm. Sometimes it burns out the power on the FW bus.

Has anyone seen any sign of running TCP/IP over Thunderbolt? Obviously you can run it over PCIe, so its possible, but not seen any talk of it yet.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 6, 2011, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I've seen it. It often doesn't do any harm. Sometimes it burns out the power on the FW bus.
This may be an entirely separate issue, but the slew of burned-out Firewire ports was a total ****-up on Apple's part:

Most (all?) Firewire ports Apple built into their machines prior to June 23, 2002, were improperly fused and would burn out easily when connecting external devices.

Mac�̖{�̕W��FireWire�|�[�g�̂��g�p�Ɋւ���[RATOC]
FireWire DEAD

I had it happen twice on my iMac DV, and a friend shredded his PowerBook G4 three times and had it replaced by AppleCare with a newer version that never had the problem.
     
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Mar 15, 2011, 12:29 PM
 
I'm an editor looking to get the most out of a Thunderbolt Port, and I've heard the term "daisychain" throw around regarding the easiest way to get high bit rates out of the TBolt. I know what a daisychain method is, I'm just wondering what set/workflow of different apparatus people out there think works best.

Cheers!
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 15, 2011, 01:41 PM
 
AFAIK, there are no thunderbolt devices available yet, so: none at present.
     
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Mar 15, 2011, 07:10 PM
 
Daisychaining is a last resort, ideally it will have hubs.
     
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Dec 20, 2011, 08:11 AM
 
YES IT WORKS estat to Thunderbolt actually /firewire 800 / anything expresscard

sonnet we love you

watch video

esata to new Mac Book Air with thunderbolt and esata

Thunderbolt to esata - YouTube
     
   
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