[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by loki74

And you most certinaly have failed to argue anything I've said, or provide the aforementioned evidence.

Show me one influentual non-militant Islamic leader who hasn't spoken out against terrorism.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Actually, he doesn't control any army anymore. That's what happens when you used to be one of USA's friends.

fixed.™

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by loki74

3,000 Americans died as the result of an unprovoked attack in peactime.

Debatable.

Operation Iraqi Freedom was NOT unprovoked.

What did Iraq do to America? And don't try and re-sell me the WMD bullsh1t.

...I could continue, and detail the efforts of the American armed forces' efforts to ensure minimal civilian casualties...

Really? Is the US armed forces' treatment of Iraqi prisoners an example of this? Or how about the murder of Iraqi civilians in Haditha?

These Muslims speaking out against the Pope has nothing to do with the Iraq war.

The deaths of those Americans on 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq either. Those outraged by the Pope's comments are entitled to express their anger at yet another attack on Islam.

On the other hand, The Muslims who approve with silence the acts of terrorism vastly outnumber those who have spoken out against terror and for peace. Hence, your point is both irrelevant and invalid.

And your evidence of this is what? I've heard plenty of moderate Muslim groups denounce the actions of radial Islamists. I suppose it depends on what news you choose to read, listen or watch.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Those outraged by the Pope's comments are entitled to express their anger at yet another attack on Islam.

Why would they though? He just quoted what somebody said 600! years ago.

Who cares what that old fart says anyway!?

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Why would they though? He just quoted what somebody said 600! years ago.

Who cares what that old fart says anyway!?

It's the fact that he quoted such a person anyway. That coupled with the current trend of hatred towards Islam and its followers is also perhaps why this issue is getting more attention than it might have done say, 10 years ago.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

fixed.™

The lesson to learn here: Don't cross friends of your friend. Thank you for pointing that out.

Ironically, historically it appears you're better off to have been one of the USA's enemies.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

It's the fact that he quoted such a person anyway. That coupled with the current trend of hatred towards Islam and its followers is also perhaps why this issue is getting more attention than it might have done say, 10 years ago.

Don't you think though it makes "Muslims" look like they are latching onto anything even remotely controversial and cry "victim"…

I mean burning sh1t and stuff…that's just a tad bit "over-the-top". Why can't they just make fun of him like everybody else.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Ironically, historically it appears you're better off to have been one of the USA's enemies.

Yeah, just ask OBL…

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Why would they though? He just quoted what somebody said 600! years ago.

Who cares what that old fart says anyway!?

Dunno, but his words carry a lot more weight than yours or mine, so I don't think we get to say that.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Don't you think though it makes "Muslims" look like they are latching onto anything even remotely controversial and cry "victim"…

I mean burning sh1t and stuff…that's just a tad bit "over-the-top". Why can't they just make fun of him like everybody else.

I do think it's a bit over the top, but I don't have the same perspective on this as people in other parts of the world might have. I can understand why such a reaction has occurred though and I attribute it to the current tension.

Some Muslim groups have responded positively to today's apology from the Pope:

The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) said the Pope made "a good first step" in "recognising the hurt he caused".

Ajmal Masroor of the Islamic Society of Britain said it was "greatly noble" of him to accept "his mistake".

.....

And one of the UK's highest-ranking Muslim police officer, Chief Superintendent Ali Dizaei, had called for calm.

Protests were unnecessary and played into the hands of those who claimed that Islam stifled free speech, he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5352040.stm

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Dunno, but his words carry a lot more weight than yours or mine, so I don't think we get to say that.

Though that might be true, he wasn't giving his opinion, he was merely quoting a historical person, and as far as I understand he didn't do it to make the point that Islam is "teh suck".

[Cody Dawg]

At least Americans don't shroud and beat their wives and daughters - or circumcise them (genital mutilation) as Islam does.

Disgusting.

I provided many examples of how women are mistreated (abused) and how Islam likes to mutilate Muslim women's genitalia in this thread. (Scroll down the page.)

In fact, L'il Baby Kitten, your own government, Egypt, overturned a ban on the practive of "female circumcision" (genital mutilation). That's really advanced (read = barbaric) of your government and country.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Show me one influentual non-militant Islamic leader who hasn't spoken out against terrorism.

Uh... how about the guys who are ripping on the Pope right now? How about those idiot Muslims who made the big stink about those cartoons?

Originally Posted by LBK

Debatable.

...not really.

Originally Posted by LBK

What did Iraq do to America? And don't try and re-sell me the WMD bullsh1t.

Well lets see... Saddam supports terrorists, and he was in violation of a number of UN sanctions.

Originally Posted by LBK

Really? Is the US armed forces' treatment of Iraqi prisoners an example of this? Or how about the murder of Iraqi civilians in Haditha?

Don't even get started on this prisoners/torture bullshit. I never said that NO civillians died or would die. But the US does take great efforts to minimize such deaths. Just look at the technology in our missiles. Ensuring such precision is NOT cheap--minimizing civilian casualties is clearly and indisputably a high priority for the US.

Originally Posted by LBK

The deaths of those Americans on 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq either. Those outraged by the Pope's comments are entitled to express their anger at yet another attack on Islam.

Uh, you're the one who brought up Iraq. Those people have no right to be outraged by the Pope's comments, so long as they allow their fellow Muslims to kill innocent people, and spew hatred against Christianity.

Originally Posted by LBK

And your evidence of this is what? I've heard plenty of moderate Muslim groups denounce the actions of radial Islamists. I suppose it depends on what news you choose to read, listen or watch.

Perhaps. But I shouldn't have to specifically LOOK for these "moderate groups." I'm sure they're out there, but they are not the mainstream. If they were, we wouldn't be fighting a war against terror. The voice of the terrorists is lounder. If the moderates are indeed the majority, certainly they could rise up a louder voice than the few terrorists/extremists.

Originally Posted by LBK

That coupled with the current trend of hatred towards Islam

Ha, as though they didn't bring it upon themselves. As though they are not the single largest propogator of hate in the modern world. I would say that even Hitler comes in at a distant second to the amount of hate Muslims have against anyone else.

LBK, it is clear that anything that goes against anything any Muslim believes is wrong in your eyes. Anyone who feels that the terrorist attack on civillians on 9/11 could possibly have been provoked is an extremist in my book. You, sir, need a major reality check. You can expect no furhter replies from me, as I have neither the time nor the patience to invest in so useless an endeavor as to instill some form of common sense into one such as yourself.


EDIT: Although we commonly find ourselves in disagreement, Kronos, I must commend your moderate stance on this issue.

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

At least Americans don't shroud and beat their wives and daughters…

You haven't met my cousin's husband, have you?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by loki74

Uh... how about the guys who are ripping on the Pope right now? How about those idiot Muslims who made the big stink about those cartoons?

Errr, your argument was that none of the "leaders of the Muslim religion" have ever spoken out against terrorism.

You obviously don't know what the fcuk your talking about.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

You haven't met my cousin's husband, have you?

Well, if he's holding similar views than you, what a surprise.

-t

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Well, if he's holding similar views than you, what a surprise.

-t

Hey, you gotta keep those b1tches in their place...you know what I'm sayin'?!

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

At least Americans don't shroud and beat their wives and daughters - or circumcise them (genital mutilation) as Islam does.

They sure as hell do.

[Cody Dawg]

Quit spouting off old man.

Show some links of ORGANIZED genital mutilation as part of our culture.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Quit spouting off old man.

Show some links of ORGANIZED genital mutilation as part of our culture.

Hm... define 'our culture', please

V

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Show some links of ORGANIZED genital mutilation as part of our culture.

I'd post pics of some rad cl1t piercings up here, but I believe that's against forum rules.

[Cody Dawg]

It's fun to make jokes about it?

Guess your mothers all her their genitals mutiilated?

Nice thought, eh?

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by loki74

Uh... how about the guys who are ripping on the Pope right now? How about those idiot Muslims who made the big stink about those cartoons?

So now anyone who responds to a religious insult is an idiot? Or do you reserve such remarks for Muslims only?

Originally Posted by loki74

Well lets see... Saddam supports terrorists, and he was in violation of a number of UN sanctions.

Which terrorists and how did he violate the sanctions? Sneaking in food to feed his starving population? Forgive me if I don't give a rats ass about such a 'violation'.

Originally Posted by loki74

Don't even get started on this prisoners/torture bullshit. I never said that NO civillians died or would die. But the US does take great efforts to minimize such deaths. Just look at the technology in our missiles. Ensuring such precision is NOT cheap--minimizing civilian casualties is clearly and indisputably a high priority for the US.

Ah yes those brilliant "precision-guided" missiles. Funny how they always seem to hit precisely the wrong targets.

Originally Posted by loki74

Uh, you're the one who brought up Iraq. Those people have no right to be outraged by the Pope's comments, so long as they allow their fellow Muslims to kill innocent people, and spew hatred against Christianity.

I brought up Iraq because the horrendous amount of deaths occurring there daily is a source of hurt and anger amongst Muslims worldwide. And it is the US's criminal negligence in their conduct of this war that has created that situation.

Originally Posted by loki74

The voice of the terrorists is lounder. If the moderates are indeed the majority, certainly they could rise up a louder voice than the few terrorists/extremists.

Bombs do generally tend to be louder than voices. If the moderates resorted to that they wouldn't really be called moderates any more would they?

Originally Posted by loki74

Ha, as though they didn't bring it upon themselves. As though they are not the single largest propogator of hate in the modern world. I would say that even Hitler comes in at a distant second to the amount of hate Muslims have against anyone else.

And with that you've dismissed every historical event that has contributed to Muslim anger, not least the plight of the Palestinians. This is a very typical tactic of portraying any action by Muslims as irrational and senseless.

Originally Posted by loki74

LBK, it is clear that anything that goes against anything any Muslim believes is wrong in your eyes.

Bzzt. Wrong. You don't know me very well at all so don't try analysing me.

Originally Posted by loki74

You can expect no furhter replies from me, as I have neither the time nor the patience to invest in so useless an endeavor as to instill some form of common sense into one such as yourself.

In other words, you're finding it hard to counter my points. Kr0nos is right, you don't know what the fcuk you're talking about. When you do, I'd be happy to discuss this with you again.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

At least Americans don't shroud and beat their wives and daughters - or circumcise them (genital mutilation) as Islam does.

Islam doesn't 'do' anything, neither do its teachings condone or even speak of female circumcison or wife beating. You're also pretty ignorant if you really believe there are no American men who mistreat their wives.

Here's an alternative perspective for you - At least Middle Easterners don't strip their women of their dignity by making them dress in such ludicrously revealing clothing, like Americans do.

See how stupid your statement sounds now?

I provided many examples of how women are mistreated (abused) and how Islam likes to mutilate Muslim women's genitalia in this thread. (Scroll down the page.)

You may have provided evidence of mistreatment of women in the ME - Islam, however, does not permit such a thing.

In fact, L'il Baby Kitten, your own government, Egypt, overturned a ban on the practive of "female circumcision" (genital mutilation). That's really advanced (read = barbaric) of your government and country.

I am not Egyptian. And even if I was I wouldn't defend such a thing. If you knew anything about the people of the Middle East you'd know that most of them abhore their governments. Very few governments there are chosen by the people over which they rule.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

I'd post pics of some rad cl1t piercings up here, but I believe that's against forum rules.

Organized ? Where ? Commissioned by who ?

-t

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Organized ? Where ? Commissioned by who ?

-t

The ACPA

[turtle777]

Sure.

-t

[Kerrigan]

Islam in its present state is garbage. This whole affair is downright medieval, seriously. Christianity has been modernized and disenchanted by theologians over the past 150-170 years (at least since Hegel's day). Christians and atheistic human secularists have been debating over the nature of reality for ages, and such discussions are almost always done in a civilized manner.

With Islam, it's a different matter. Never mind that European and American Christian leaders have been trying to extend ecumenical dialog to Islam. Never mind that Europeans have gone to great lengths to accommodate Islam and integrate it into European society. The nature of the debate between Islam and the West is always characterized by naive young men with a passion for rhetoric who go about and burn things and start riots whenever their leaders inform of a putative "slight" against their religion.

This is not the middle ages anymore, and Islam needs to grow up. I'm tired of how every discussion about Islam always devolves into this nonsense.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

This is not the middle ages anymore, and Islam needs to grow up.

...and quit proving the Pope right by attacking churches in retaliation for being called barbaric. They absolutely proved the Pope's "comments" right almost immediately.

[Kerrigan]

And for VW: I understand why you converted to Islam. Today's world of environment-destroying materialistic consumerism leaves people with a profound yearning to recapture the lost spiritualism of days gone by. People want that "beautiful soul" of older days.

But taking a fundamentalist stance with regards to your beliefs is not going to accomplish that. Much of the bitterness which characterizes your brand of Islam as well as other fundamentalist beliefs in Islam and Christianity, comes from a tacit understanding that your beliefs are becoming artifacts, something which is unbearable to think about. Fundamentalist beliefs are fossilizing, and we all know this, despite the fact that they seem to have so much vitality at present.

My main point is that clinging to a strong religious identity will not give you what you're looking for. Defining yourself in opposition to the West may seem satisfying at first, but deep down it gives you nothing. I'm sure there is a God, but do you really think that his presence in his believers manifests itself in such a disagreeable way? Do you really think that divine grace manifests itself in a bitterness towards Christians?

I say the same thing about Salty who, like you, is staunchly commited to seeking truth in ancient doctrines, but who just ends up being unusually obsessed with homosexuality and irritatingly vituperative towards anyone who disagrees with his beliefs.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Show some links of ORGANIZED genital mutilation as part of our culture.

Here you go:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...r+circumcision

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah

Or I just don't really care what anyone thinks anymore? Because my sig is about 0.001% of the hatred spewed on this forum but it gets 80% of the attention. You yourself have said worse things on here (nuke the ME, Islam a religion of terrorism etc etc) but no one gave a shet. I use a signature that is confrontational....... whole forum goes berserk.

I forgot the third candidate for my signature.

The things I've seen in life will make you choke by surprise
like an aborted fetus in a jar that opened its eyes

Better?

So you are criticisng the pope for quoting a people that called Islam "evil" (and if you read the context of the speech, the pope is suggesting NO such thing) yet you in your signaure are suggesting that Christianity is more evil than Lucifer. Absolute hypocrisy!

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Islam in its present state is garbage. This whole affair is downright medieval, seriously. Christianity has been modernized and disenchanted by theologians over the past 150-170 years (at least since Hegel's day). Christians and atheistic human secularists have been debating over the nature of reality for ages, and such discussions are almost always done in a civilized manner.

With Islam, it's a different matter. Never mind that European and American Christian leaders have been trying to extend ecumenical dialog to Islam. Never mind that Europeans have gone to great lengths to accommodate Islam and integrate it into European society. The nature of the debate between Islam and the West is always characterized by naive young men with a passion for rhetoric who go about and burn things and start riots whenever their leaders inform of a putative "slight" against their religion.

This is not the middle ages anymore, and Islam needs to grow up. I'm tired of how every discussion about Islam always devolves into this nonsense.

Why spout mediaeval as a negative word? I'd say Christianity is mediaeval too - simply because its teachings, at least the core of it, have not changed since the middle ages. Do you think the Christian concept of charity was only invented in last 150 years? Nonsense. You must remember that it is this 'mediaeval hate speech' in question actually condemned any form of religious violence. If you read stuff from the Middle Ages, especially from theologians such as St Thomas Aquinas, you will be surprised at how 'modern' they are. It was from the middle ages that came many great saints, such as St Francis of Assisi who wrote prayers like:

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen.

Any form of religious violence is an aberration of Christianity - and always has been. Just because at certain times, society had assumed a violent culture and even many high ranking Christian officials partook in this culture, does not mean that violence was a part of the Church's teaching. As we are all sinners, the teachings of the Church cannot be deduced from the faithful's actions. The same can be said for today. The Church's teaching is that contraception is morally wrong - but if we look at the average Catholic couple, they are using contraception daily. And just like religious violence throughout the Church's history, many priests are silent on the issue as they do not want to alienate their congregations.

I think Manuel II had a very perceptive eye. Religious violence in Islam is a reality and is promoted by Muslim leaders at many levels.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by undotwa

The Church's teaching is that contraception is morally wrong - but if we look at the average Catholic couple, they are using contraception daily. And just like religious violence throughout the Church's history, many priests are silent on the issue as they do not want to alienate their congregations.

I've always casually wondered: where do they get this in the Bible? Is it Old Testament-based, in the New Testament, or another one of Catholicisms' "rules"?

Anyone happen to have an explanation? Since, you know, we're on the subject of...the Pope.

greg

[loki74]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Errr, your argument was that none of the "leaders of the Muslim religion" have ever spoken out against terrorism.

Okay, so I should have phrased my original statement slightly differently, to account for the feeble anti-terror sentiment voiced by a handful of Muslim leaders.

Originally Posted by LBK

In other words, you're finding it hard to counter my points. Kr0nos is right, you don't know what the fcuk you're talking about. When you do, I'd be happy to discuss this with you again.

Too difficult? Oh do I? *ahem* To your point #1) no, anyone who [supports those who] kills innocents in the name of religion and responds to a religious attack, is an idiot. 2) Don't remember specifically, do remember hearing it, I'll see if I can look it up. 3) Mistakes happen. Was it on purpose? Doubt it. 4) Understandable, but "crinimal negligence?" please. 5) Not what I meant. The ACLU is pretty loud... So are these guys speaking out against the Pope. 6) No, not every act by a Muslim. Just the ones that involve the deahts of perfectly innocent "infedels." 7) Hey, thats just the impression you give.

I find your stances too extreme to argue with reason. I know that reason will not sway you, and unfortunately, reason is all I know how to argue with. I also know that no one, neither those for or against it, will "win" the argument on the Iraq war. If you want to sit there and tell yourself that that means I find you too hard to counter, or that I don't know what the fᴜck I'm talking about, hey, thats fine in my book. It isn't like it's hurting me in any way.

EDIT: I'd also like to toss in my $0.02 regarding Cody's argument. Okay, mutilation or hitting women is by no means something I condone, but I don't think it's fair to associate those exclusively with Muslims. Really, I laughed when I read that "we don't do that here in America," or whatever. As far as beating women, it's a question of wether or not the culture condones it... As far as gentalia mutilation, I think it's a question of whether or not the it's the woman's will for that to happen. I don't think any such thing should be forced upon a woman. meh, whatever. It's not really related to what the Pope said.

[DLQ2006]

[QUOTE=lil'babykitten]So now anyone who responds to a religious insult is an idiot? Or do you reserve such remarks for Muslims only?

Muslims that "respond to religious insults" by acting like rabid lunatics foaming at the mouths and burning effigies of the Pope, are going to be mocked by those that are part of the sane world. Maybe when they stop "responding to religious insults" by burning churches down, shooting at synagouges, preaching death to the Jews and Christians, and committing random acts of violence against non-muslims, they will start getting the respect they are demanding. They deserve no more respect than violent children throwing temper tantrums do.

[Kerrigan]

Here is an extract of the actual speech. How controversial

-------------------------

The Pope’s speech was entitled Faith, reason and the university. This is an edited extract:

"I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on, perhaps in 1391, by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Koran. . . In the seventh conversation the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that Sura (Koranic chapter) 2, 256 reads: ‘There is no compulsion in religion.’ According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Koran, concerning holy war . . . He addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence, saying: ‘Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.’

The emperor, having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. ‘God,’ he says, ‘is not pleased by blood — and not acting reasonably . . . is contrary to God’s nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats . . . To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons, or any other means of threatening a person with death . . .’ The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God’s nature. Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this is self-evident.

But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. At this point, as far as understanding of God and thus the practice of religion is concerned, we are faced with an unavoidable dilemma. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God’s nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true? . . .

---------------------

It's a good read. More here: The University of Regensburg address - World - Times Online

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by loki74

I find your stances too extreme to argue with reason. .

Because I suggested there might be a reason behind the 9/11 attacks? If you were reasonable you'd be open to a rational debate. Seeking to understand why things, such as 9/11, happen doesn't automatically mean you condone or support such an act. You don't seem to be able to make that distinction.

[loki74]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Because I suggested there might be a reason behind the 9/11 attacks? If you were reasonable you'd be open to a rational debate. Seeking to understand why things, such as 9/11, happen doesn't automatically mean you condone or support such an act. You don't seem to be able to make that distinction.

How does my impression that you are beyond reasoning with lead you to believe that I think you support or condone 9/11? I never said that. You don't seem to be able to make that distiction... wait, there isn't any distiction here! Let me correct that--you can't seem to help but fabricate things and put words in my mouth. That's exactly the kind of broken logic that makes you impossible to reason with. That, and your clear sympaty and rationalization of Islamic violence.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by loki74

How does my impression that you are beyond reasoning with lead you to believe that I think you support or condone 9/11? I never said that.

Originally Posted by loki74

That, and your clear sympaty and rationalization of Islamic violence.

umm

You also said earlier: "Anyone who feels that the terrorist attack on civillians on 9/11 could possibly have been provoked is an extremist in my book."

So there you have it, any attempt to talk about possible causes of 9/11 renders me an extremist and supporter of Islamist violence according to you.

The only one with broken logic here is you.

[DLQ2006]

"I brought up Iraq because the horrendous amount of deaths occurring there daily is a source of hurt and anger amongst Muslims worldwide. And it is the US's criminal negligence in their conduct of this war that has created that situation."

Hey, I have an idea. The terrorists in Iraq hiding behind civilian attire, blowing up crowds of women and children to get our troops, can grow up and join the civilized world. That way, our guys can come home where we want them (and they want to be) so that they don't have to keep dying and being seriously wounded in the effort to make something out of that God forbidden s**t-hole you call Iraq.

"Bombs do generally tend to be louder than voices. If the moderates resorted to that they wouldn't really be called moderates any more would they?"

Has it ever occurred to you that the U.S. could by now be drilling for oil in Iraq through glass after incinerating the entire country if we wanted to? What do you think Iran, Iraq, Or Syria would do with the same amount of firepower we have? They would destroy the entire west tomorrow if they could, that's what. The reason they haven't yet is that they aren't smart enough to develop the technology themselves and they have to buy the technology from other countries. Because they have money from selling their oil, they can buy it and it's a matter of time before they will have bought all the technology that they need. Their own baffoonery and ignorance is all that restrains them.

"And with that you've dismissed every historical event that has contributed to Muslim anger, not least the plight of the Palestinians. This is a very typical tactic of portraying any action by Muslims as irrational and senseless."


What historical events would that be?
The ten centuries of muslim pirates' attacks on the northern shore of the Mediterranean?
The Muslims' raiding the whole of Africa for slaves, and for selling them worlwide?
The muslims' genocide in Darfur?
The Muslims' murdering of 80 million Hindus in the occupation of India?
The muslims' massacre of Marines in Beirut in the eighties?
The Muslims' massacre of hundreds of civilians on Pam Am flt 103 in the eighties?
The Muslims' murder of 3000 on 9/11?
The Muslims' murder of hundreds in Mardid and London?
The Muslims' 40 years of Palestinian terrorism?
The Muslim's murder of Theo Van Gogh (for offending their religion)?
The Muslims' murder of Robert Kennedy?
The Muslims' torturing to death our troops?
The Muslims' Beheading of civilians?
The Muslims' murdering of thousands in Mogadishu?
The Muslims' murdering of civilians in the Kobar towers?
The Muslims' attack at the Fiumicino airport?
The Muslims' massacre at the Olympic games in Munich?
The Muslims' kidnapping of the CIA chief of station and his killing by torture?
The Muslims' attempt to murder the Pope?
The Muslims' attempt to murder former President Bush Sr?
The Muslims' Bali massacre?
The Muslims' rioting and attacking non-Mulims at random over cartoons?

Those monsters don't need a reason. They don't need to be provoked. Their actions are not some kind of backlash or "response". I'm sick and tired of the poor offended me bullcrap from them while they burn churches, shoot at synagouges, preach hate of all Christians and Jews, and kill in the name of their religion, all while declaring to be victims while they live like 7th century barbarians that inflict as much violence and misery on fellow Muslims as they have on Non-Muslims.

For all the talk about how their religion is about the inner struggle, they appear to be completely incapable of self-examination. Every atrocity ever committed in the name of Allah is someone else's fault. If they would turn the lens on themselves long enough to take a good look, they would see the irony in playing the persecution role and demanding respect while they chant death to anyone who offends them. They've done a lot more than offend people.

I've yet to see a horde of swarming Muslims seething and going on rampages because of an atrocity one of their own has committed against Non-Muslims. And I've yet to see a group of Non-Muslims acting this way and burning effigys of Mohammad or various Imams when Islamic clerics are constantly saying the most vile things about Christians and Jews. The double standard and hypocrisy is astonishing.

[Cody Dawg]

Excellent post DLQ2006.

This is the face of the "modern" Muslim who insists that his religion is a "peaceful" religion.

[marden]

Originally Posted by Kr0nos

Show me one influentual non-militant Islamic leader who hasn't spoken out against terrorism.

Show me protests against terrorism such as the protests against the Pope.

Show me threads initiated by Muslims that slam terrorism.

That's what I mean about atheists.

Any replies to the atheist comment should go to the OUTSIDERS thread, PLEASE.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

I know these guys. They are Mexican Canadians.

Oh, no, wait, nevermind. Wrong thread.

-t

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

I know these guys. They are Mexican Canadians.

Oh, no, wait, nevermind. Wrong thread.

-t

Actually, that picture could have been easily taken in Dearborn, MI. Not far from me.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Actually, that picture could have been easily taken in Dearborn, MI. Not far from me.

Well that's scary.

-t

[baw]

Must be nothing better to do than to get angry about what a Pope "quoted".

[DLQ2006]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Excellent post DLQ2006.

This is the face of the "modern" Muslim who insists that his religion is a "peaceful" religion.

Thanks, I barely hit the "submit reply" before remembering the USS Cole attack and first World Trade Center attack. That list could have been much longer and unfortunately is an ever growing list, but I think all those without blinders on can see the point.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

At least Americans don't shroud and beat their wives and daughters

Are you certain about that?
Society: Issues: Violence and Abuse: Family Violence: Statistics - Open Site

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

- or circumcise them (genital mutilation) as Islam does.

Disgusting.

Disgusting to be certain ... though I've always been curious about why nobody finds male circumcision disgusting ...

[ink]

McClatchy Washington Bureau | 09/16/2006 | Muslims erupt in anger at pope's comments about Muhammad

Not violent?

It's a mental disease.