[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

Why is that too much slack? A reasoned argument absent of demands isn't vicious enough?

I think there should be clear demands, e. g. that the state no longer brandishes such symbols. (What you do in your garden or on your truck is your thing.)

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

If I understand correctly, the slave states considered the terms of the marriage more strict than you posit here. Parity was a non-negotiable term, and their participation in the Union up to that point had been contingent upon it.

After 1820, at least. Before that it was sort of a loose end.

Originally Posted by subego 

The part they're winning at doesn't necessarily act as acceptable compensation for the losses incurred.

Fair enough, but as I said depending on whether you support the narrative that the south was leaving slavery behind its still absurd.

I still don't see how Lincoln's election changes anything that makes secession logical at that moment.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

When you defend something that is now so clearly considered a symbol of hatred and oppression,

Misplaced, and only within the progressive narrative.

you only come off in one of two ways. If you aren't particularly eloquent about it, you just come off as a dumbass racist. If you're smart enough to level a more reasoned set of arguments for your case, you come off as a racist who is smart enough to avoid getting caught actually being a racist, but who everyone strongly suspects is one anyway. Its perfectly true that you may not be one, but really only your fellow "smart racists" will give you much benefit of the doubt.

and we disconnect [part 2, section 1 of Godwin's law triggered]. So long and thanks for all the fish, I'll see you in a different discussion thread.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Seems like you're endorsing absolutes to me. Lately (since the early `00s) it came back to prominence because the federal gov't was becoming more authoritarian, when we started being stripped of our civil liberties.

*Citation needed

Also, it came back to prominence during civil rights. Two examples:
• It was incorporated into the Georgian flag in '56.
• It was placed over the SC Capitol Dome in '62

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Of course it's sanitizing history

Then explain how.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Obviously indians need better representation, because they don't get shit compared to blacks.

Other than sovereign land, of course.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Indeed. The people flying the Stars & Bars in remembrance of fallen Confederate soldiers (who are their ancestors) aren't praising the Southern elites who were profiting directly from slavery. The progressive narrative that the flag is a symbol of racism is simply cognitive dissonance, completely divorced from the reality of what it was like during the decades of war and Reconstruction.

It's a symbol of an war fought over a subject teeming with racism.

You want to talk about divorcing from reality? Reality is what all the documents the south wrote about why the south seceded say, not the misconceptions the fighters were under.

You want to tell me perception equals reality? I get that. That means all southern soldiers weren't a bunch of assholes fighting for slavery. But it doesn't change history. The soldiers may be deserving of pity for being mislead, but their leaders are still deserving of all the hate they get. 150 years later I have a little less sympathy for southerners under the wrong impression – all the documents are easy to find.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

So to the typical, average Southerner the much ballyhooed secession documents didn't mean shit. He didn't vote for the people who ratified them. Hell, he probably never saw his representative, the president, nor the damned document. They were simply told that the North was attacking their right to sovereignty and self-determination (there's some irony) and to arm themselves, so they did.

You know what that means? They were bamboozled. In which case, I would see the confederate flag not as a point of Southern pride but as a symbol of being manipulated by rich southerners to fight for their cause. No self-respecting man should be proud about fighting a war for the wrong reasons. No person should revel in their ancestors being tricked into giving their lives for a cause they didn't believe in.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I think there should be clear demands, e. g. that the state no longer brandishes such symbols. (What you do in your garden or on your truck is your thing.)

This isn't a demand made to individuals, it's a demand made to the government.

I was discussing the slack cut to non-racist individuals.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

*Citation needed

Patriot Act (thanks Bush), then the permanent installation of many provisions within the Patriot Act (thanks Obama).

Then explain how.

I already have (see comments about the progressive agenda in academia).

Other than sovereign land, of course.

Ah yes, the Reservation Acts. "We're going to force what's left of you on these closed-in plots of land and take everything else. Oh, you say you're nomadic and have always roamed the land? Tough shit." Might as well call them federal prison camps. Now, they've tried to make the best of it all, ignoring the suicide rates and destruction of their ancient cultures, but if you think that even comes close to compensating for what they lost... No amount of casino money and tax breaks can account for the genocide America committed. Ever ask a native American thinks about the Stars and Stripes? I have, and it makes the panty-bunching over the rebel flag pale in comparison.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

After 1820, at least. Before that it was sort of a loose end.

Fair enough, but as I said depending on whether you support the narrative that the south was leaving slavery behind its still absurd.

I still don't see how Lincoln's election changes anything that makes secession logical at that moment.

It's the point of no return. Abolition was the raison d'être of the Republican Party.

And here's the thing... it's really easy for me to pick a side against slavery, but I have trouble picking sides when it comes to everything else.

The North was grinding the South under its heel. The South was cut out of the revenue stream as soon as things passed the raw material stage, and it got the shit taxed out of it before it left... all picked by the slaves the North had a problem with except when they were buying the product.

And the tax money, where did it go? To build infrastructure in the North. Virginia started out with like, 10 representatives, New York had 6. Fifty years later Virginia has gone up a couple representatives, and New York has 30.

And then, the North, who built their empire on the backs of their slaves and basically let them rot, pulls up the ladder while disapprovingly wagging its finger.

I'm a Northerner, and the North still pisses me off.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

It's a symbol of an war fought over a subject teeming with racism.

From your perspective, not the people who actually lived through Reconstruction.

You want to talk about divorcing from reality? Reality is what all the documents the south wrote about why the south seceded say, not the misconceptions the fighters were under.

Documents written and signed by people they never voted for. Those documents?

You want to tell me perception equals reality? I get that. That means all southern soldiers weren't a bunch of assholes fighting for slavery. But it doesn't change history. The soldiers may be deserving of pity for being mislead, but their leaders are still deserving of all the hate they get. 150 years later I have a little less sympathy for southerners under the wrong impression – all the documents are easy to find.

The elites never got their comeuppance and the Southern people in poverty had to live through hell for what they were forced into, and a war that was misrepresented. It took guts to rebuild and carry on, ever see what Sherman did to the South? He almost literally burned it all to the ground. To this day that name isn't spoken in certain areas, at least not without a curse or spit used in punctuation. Then there's the occupation afterward, the insult added to injury during Reconstruction. So yeah, Rebel flag = endure and remember. If you only see racism in it, don't fly it in your state. If you don't like it and you do live in a Southern state, then vote for people who are sympathetic and share your political views, change it. Not enough people to change it? Then maybe you're living in the wrong place? (See comments in Tyranny of the Shrill Minority.)

You know what that means? They were bamboozled. In which case, I would see the confederate flag not as a point of Southern pride but as a symbol of being manipulated by rich southerners to fight for their cause. No self-respecting man should be proud about fighting a war for the wrong reasons. No person should revel in their ancestors being tricked into giving their lives for a cause they didn't believe in.

If you understood what I said above, you'd see how silly that comment is. You don't understand the South, I get it. Just enjoy your part of the country and be happy.

[OAW]

This "argument" is essentially akin to saying that the foot soldiers in the Nazi Germany military might have a different understanding of the swastika and what it stood for because they weren't necessarily privy to the plans of the architects of the Third Reich or their actions which included gassing millions of Jews and other minorities. You certainly don't see the large swaths of the German public holding onto some sort of "You will take my Nazi flag over my dead body!" attitude as some sort of defiant embrace of "German heritage". And those that do are rightly criticized. Imagine that.

Furthermore, underlying this notion of "Southern Heritage" is one rather interesting yet unspoken reality. What this really means is "White Southern Heritage". Because black people have been a part of the South for as long as there has been a South! In fact, in many counties in what we know as the Deep South .... especially cotton production was prevalent .... there were more black slaves than white citizens. But we damned sure don't see any widespread embrace of the Confederate Flag as a source of "Black Southern Heritage" now do we? Sure you could dig up a few confused and self-hating Negros to trot out on Fox News. But roll out in any predominantly black neighborhood in the South and count how many Confederate Flags you see. You see for today's Neo-Confederates it simply does not matter how black people view the Confederate Flag. Even black southerners! Because it's that same underlying arrogance that allows white southerners to use phrases like "Southern Pride" and "Southern Heritage" in ways where even Stevie Wonder can see that they are only speaking about themselves. Because their black neighbors who they interact with on a regular basis during the day but live on the other side of town at night don't factor into that equation at all.

And it is THAT good people ... which is at the heart of white supremacy. That is what the Confederate Flag has always represented. Period.

OAW

[Cap'n Tightpants]

All of that is utter inflammatory horseshit. [and primary tenant of Godwin's Law violated. You lose, thanks for playing.]

[OAW]

One step closer ....

South Carolina Senate Votes to Remove Confederate Flag From Capitol - NBC News

OAW

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Misplaced, and only within the progressive narrative.

And maybe thats fair and maybe it isn't but its a ship that has sailed and its surprising its taken this long for such a fuss to be made about it.
The Swastika was a symbol of peace, no-one disputes this, but it has been tainted irrevocably and now only really awful people and people starring in certain movies will consider wearing it.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

and we disconnect [part 2, section 1 of Godwin's law triggered]. So long and thanks for all the fish, I'll see you in a different discussion thread.

I'm not saying its right or fair or even that its my personal opinion, but that is the way it is whether you like it or not. I can't see that this particular flag is represents any principle worth sticking your neck out for.

[OAW]

Well good people you decide. The facts have been presented. My position remains that there has never NOT been a time throughout the entire history of the Confederate Flag when it hasn't been used SOMEWHERE by SOMEBODY as a symbol of white supremacy. It's genesis was as the battle flag of the leading Confederate general for the states that seceded for the documented reason of preserving a slave based economy in the south. It was later used by the KKK during its reign of terror against blacks during the Reconstruction Era. Later still used by Dixiecrats and other white southerners who were explicitly in favor of Jim Crow and opposed to desegregation during the Civil Rights Movement. Even today it is often used my new-Nazi and other white supremacist groups. Consequently, it has no place on taxpayer supported public grounds except perhaps inside a museum. Period.

So again .. you decide. Is all of that simply a "progressive narrative"? Or is the continued denial of the obvious a prime example of what GOP pundit David Frum meant when he stated that "conservatives have a unique capacity to ignore unwelcome fact."

OAW

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I'm not saying its right or fair or even that its my personal opinion, but that is the way it is whether you like it or not. I can't see that this particular flag is represents any principle worth sticking your neck out for.

"I can't see..." Yes, that's apparent. I don't understand many things having to do with British customs and culture, nor Scottish culture (or why they so deeply hate you guys, and by extension the Union Jack) but you know, I'm not a citizen of the UK and that's your business. They say things about subjugation, tyranny, how your flag is a symbol of oppression. How long did it fly over occupied territories, when the empire stretched over half the globe? Would you say you guys have done enough to wipe that slate clean? No, you can't, because it doesn't work that way.

Like I said before, all symbols have negative and positive aspects. Have atrocities been committed under your flag? Of course. The US flag? No doubt. The Rebel flag? Comparatively fewer, but yes. Do all 3 have positive connections for many who grew up with them as well? Yep. And you know, it's for the people in those places to decide for themselves if they want to fly them, not ignorant souls who live 1000s of miles away whining and crying on the internet, trying to push for changes in a place you've never visited, with a history that you've not experienced. Trying to force conformity with what you think is the ideal, how liberal of you.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Well good people you decide. The facts have been presented. My position remains that there has never NOT been a time throughout the entire history of the Confederate Flag when it hasn't been used SOMEWHERE by SOMEBODY as a symbol of white supremacy. It's genesis was as the battle flag of the leading Confederate general for the states that seceded for the documented reason of preserving a slave based economy in the south. It was later used by the KKK during its reign of terror against blacks during the Reconstruction Era. Later still used by Dixiecrats and other white southerners who were explicitly in favor of Jim Crow and opposed to desegregation during the Civil Rights Movement. Even today it is often used my new-Nazi and other white supremacist groups. Consequently, it has no place on taxpayer supported public grounds except perhaps inside a museum. Period.

So again .. you decide. Is all of that simply a "progressive narrative"? Or is the continued denial of the obvious a prime example of what GOP pundit David Frum meant when he stated that "conservatives have a unique capacity to ignore unwelcome fact."

You're more full of shit than a 10lb diaper.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

"I can't see..." Yes, that's apparent. I don't understand many things having to do with British customs and culture, nor Scottish culture (or why they so deeply hate you guys, and by extension the Union Jack) but you know, I'm not a citizen of the UK and that's your business. They say things about subjugation, tyranny, how your flag is a symbol of oppression. How long did it fly over occupied territories, when the empire stretched over half the globe? Would you say you guys have done enough to wipe that slate clean? No, you can't, because it doesn't work that way.

I have never heard anyone complain that the Union Jack/Flag represents oppression or slavery or racism. I have wondered why people don't complain about it sometimes but there has certainly never been the levels of hysteria that are being generated about your confederate flag now. But the Union Jack has never represented just one thing. Its been the flag of a recognised nation for hundreds of years now. Nations engage in wars, thats why most of their flags remain untouched. The German flag is still around too. And lets not forget we fought two world wars under that flag so yes, as much as it can that slate has had something of a cleaning.
The Scottish might complain but its not focussed on the flag that I've ever seen and as much as they love to hate us, they just voted to stay married to us so it can't be all that bad.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Like I said before, all symbols have negative and positive aspects. Have atrocities been committed under your flag? Of course. The US flag? No doubt. The Rebel flag? Comparatively fewer, but yes. Do all 3 have positive connections for many who grew up with them as well? Yep. And you know, it's for the people in those places to decide for themselves if they want to fly them, not ignorant souls who live 1000s of miles away whining and crying on the internet, trying to push for changes in a place you've never visited, with a history that you've not experienced. Trying to force conformity with what you think is the ideal, how liberal of you.

I'm very reasonably asking why you would choose to risk making yourself look bad for this flag, not whining or crying for it to be taken down. Just pointing out that you are making a futile stand and wondering why its worth it. Having a go at me by interpreting this as some kind of cultural attack or me trying to force my liberal ideals on you sounds a lot more like crying to me.
My only exposure to this flag up until recently was on the roof of the General Lee or the belt buckles of the occasional southerner on TV. Once upon a time I wondered why it wasn't frowned upon to wear it or fly it. That was probably more to do with finding it odd that a country so fond of the stars and stripes would tolerate people flying the flag of what could be considered a vanquished enemy. No-one seemed to mind, so I paid little further thought.

So for all my ignorance and all the positive connotations you claim are associated with this flag I'm seeing plenty of denial about what bad things it shouldn't be taken to represent, but what are these positive associations? As cool as denim hot pants and an orange Charger are, you must have something better than the Dukes of Hazzard to justify such a passionate defence?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I have never heard anyone complain that the Union Jack/Flag represents oppression or slavery or racism. I have wondered why people don't complain about it sometimes but there has certainly never been the levels of hysteria that are being generated about your confederate flag now. But the Union Jack has never represented just one thing. Its been the flag of a recognised nation for hundreds of years now. Nations engage in wars, thats why most of their flags remain untouched. The German flag is still around too. And lets not forget we fought two world wars under that flag so yes, as much as it can that slate has had something of a cleaning.
The Scottish might complain but its not focussed on the flag that I've ever seen and as much as they love to hate us, they just voted to stay married to us so it can't be all that bad.

I'm very reasonably asking why you would choose to risk making yourself look bad for this flag, not whining or crying for it to be taken down. Just pointing out that you are making a futile stand and wondering why its worth it. Having a go at me by interpreting this as some kind of cultural attack or me trying to force my liberal ideals on you sounds a lot more like crying to me.
My only exposure to this flag up until recently was on the roof of the General Lee or the belt buckles of the occasional southerner on TV. Once upon a time I wondered why it wasn't frowned upon to wear it or fly it. That was probably more to do with finding it odd that a country so fond of the stars and stripes would tolerate people flying the flag of what could be considered a vanquished enemy. No-one seemed to mind, so I paid little further thought.

So for all my ignorance and all the positive connotations you claim are associated with this flag I'm seeing plenty of denial about what bad things it shouldn't be taken to represent, but what are these positive associations? As cool as denim hot pants and an orange Charger are, you must have something better than the Dukes of Hazzard to justify such a passionate defence?

You're confused. You aren't liberal, you're an authoritarian progressive (aka. A Social Justice Warrior), your mind is as fixed as concrete and no amount of discussion will help that. I've tried to explain why people in the South revere the rebel flag, why it's respected here, but you're just too goddamned full of your own perspective to even try to see it. That's why I don't care if people like you and OAW think I look bad, because there's so very little about you that I would ever want to be a part of me. Since you ignored what I said before, here it is again: trying to force conformity with what you think is the ideal isn't liberal.

[besson3c]

What I don't get is this...

There are many that think that the flag has racist overtones, right? There was just a race related mass murder, and plenty of other race related tension and hostility, right? What harm is there in attempting to heal some of these wounds with a pretty harmless gesture like this? If you feel like you can make an academic argument in support of the flag, fine, but nothing changes the fact that it is seen as a symbol of racism to many, and at this point I don't see why this doesn't override said academic arguments. Nobody is removing the flag from history books or private property.

Strange priorities some people have.

[OAW]

I'm sorry but did I miss something? Where exactly were these "academic points" made and substantiated to support this notion that the Confederate Flag was NOT flown in support of slavery, a KKK reign of terror, Jim Crow, and modern day US Neo-Nazism? Did I miss something? Because all we ever seem to hear from the Neo-Confederate crowd are CLAIMS that it represents all these positive Southern values ... but again such claims are never backed up with HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION.

Let's just keep it real good people. The Confederate Flag has ALWAYS represented white supremacy throughout its entire history. Period. Dot. End of sentence. It's quite telling what the immediate response was to this by our resident Neo-Confederate. It damned sure wasn't any EVIDENCE that it was NOT in support of the things I listed above. And that speaks volumes.

You see white supremacy in all of its manifestations is socially frowned upon in modern day America. Now that doesn't mean it doesn't still exist. Institutionalized racism and individual implicit bias are realities. But those are phenomena that are more under the surface and hidden. However, EXPLICIT displays of white supremacy are just socially unacceptable in most of the country. Even the KKK swears on a stack of bibles that it's no longer a white supremacist organization! So how then does the Neo-Confederate crowd continue to fly that flag in such a social climate? They do so by inventing a MYTHOLOGY about the meaning of the Confederate Flag. Which is ultimately based upon it supposedly having all of these "positive aspects" simply because they INSIST that it does! Just say it often enough and passionately enough until you begin to believe your own BS. The epitome of a self-referential argument. They construct this FALSE NARRATIVE about the reasons for Secession and the Civil War and attempt to downplay the role of race and slavery in all of that. And little things like facts be damned.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Dismissal is NOT rebuttal. It's intellectual puerility at best.

OAW

[BadKosh]

History is written by the victor.

http://www.amazon.com/South-Right-Ja.../dp/B004SCBKXM

"The South Was Right!
By James Ronald Kennedy and Walter Donald Kennedy

History is written by the victor, and that of the American Civil War is no different. The idea that Southerners would die in order for only 6 percent of the population to own slaves just does not pass the "sniff" test.
The myth of a freedom-loving North and an evil, slave-holding South is just one that is exposed in The South Was Right! The idea of big government not only was politicized through the issue of slavery but also was made inevitable in the South's defeat. Because of the surrender, "we the people" of the United States are no longer sovereign. Today, a supreme federal government dictates what rights the states can exercise.
After the Union victory, a campaign of ongoing cultural cleansing has been waged to keep the South in its assigned place in American history. While many ethnic, religious, and cultural groups are celebrated, Southern heritage often is viewed with a wary eye.
Predicted to be "one of the most controversial books of the decade" when first published, The South Was Right! lives up to that forecast. This book is filled with documented evidence supporting all of the authors' claims and paints a frighteningly realistic picture of a captured people, their struggle to preserve their heritage, and their right to exist as a distinct culture and an independent country.

Descendants of Civil War soldiers, twin brothers James Ronald Kennedy and Walter Donald Kennedy are life members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV) and are active in other organizations promoting limited government and American liberty. They are frequent speakers at conferences and on radio and television programs.
In addition to The South Was Right!, the Kennedy twins have written numerous Pelican titles, including Why Not Freedom!: America's Revolt Against Big Government, Was Jefferson Davis Right?, and Nullifying Tyranny: Creating Moral Communities in an Immoral Society. Ronald, a resident of Mandeville, Louisiana, also has written Reclaiming Liberty. Donald, a resident of Downsville, Louisiana, has written Myths of American Slavery and, with Al Benson, Lincoln's Marxists, both of which are published by Pelican. The Kennedy twins are recipients of the Distinguished Service Medal of the National Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV), the Governor Thomas Overton Moore Award from SCV's Louisiana Division, and the Southern Heritage Award from the Southern Heritage Society. In addition, they have been honored with numerous other awards for their efforts in defending the traditional view of the South and American liberty."

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Patriot Act (thanks Bush), then the permanent installation of many provisions within the Patriot Act (thanks Obama).

Cite it coming back to prominence because of this, as you claim.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I already have (see comments about the progressive agenda in academia).

I searched this thread for academia (one post, this one) and agenda (three posts, none about academia). Could you please link me to the relevant post?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

if you think that even comes close to compensating for what they lost...

I do not.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

From your perspective, not the people who actually lived through Reconstruction.

So now we're moving the goal posts from the Civil War to reconstruction?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Documents written and signed by people they never voted for. Those documents?

This doesn't absolve them for participating. You're putting forth an argument that all you need to be is stupid and history should absolve you of misguided flag worship, even when you're informed better.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

It took guts to rebuild and carry on

Oh puhlease. No one should be praised for doing the obvious to not die.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

ever see what Sherman did to the South? He almost literally burned it all to the ground.

Yeah, he crippled their infrastructure. Same thing we do in other wars (See: Germany). I also don't for a moment doubt that if the reverse had happened the South would be ok with it and say it was the price of gaining their freedom.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Then there's the occupation afterward, the insult added to injury during Reconstruction.

So now we're at a place where if you rebel it's insulting if you don't trust them afterwards. You guys are as emotional delicate flowers as liberals.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

If you only see racism in it, don't fly it in your state. If you don't like it and you do live in a Southern state, then vote for people who are sympathetic and share your political views, change it.

That's pretty much what's happening now.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Not enough people to change it? Then maybe you're living in the wrong place?

Good thing blacks have all that mobility to do so. Oh wait...

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

(See comments in Tyranny of the Shrill Minority.)

People who actually fly the flag are the minority!

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

You don't understand the South, I get it. Just enjoy your part of the country and be happy.

...and the South doesn't understand the relationship African-Americans have with the flag. That's what this thread has been about from the get go. 'Rebel' southerners prioritize their emotional take on history versus African-Americans. The difference being if you look at the war based on the facts, black americans have a pretty good point.

Does the resurgence of 60s not count for anything either? The KKK?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

What I don't get is this...

There are many that think that the flag has racist overtones, right? There was just a race related mass murder, and plenty of other race related tension and hostility, right? What harm is there in attempting to heal some of these wounds with a pretty harmless gesture like this? If you feel like you can make an academic argument in support of the flag, fine, but nothing changes the fact that it is seen as a symbol of racism to many, and at this point I don't see why this doesn't override said academic arguments. Nobody is removing the flag from history books or private property.

Strange priorities some people have.

Because changing policy and laws based on a wave of public histrionics is a shitty way to run the government. We have way too much of that going on already; "Someone's been shot! Ban guns!" "Someone hurt my feelings on the Twitter! Let's pass laws against trolling!" "We found a dirty abortion clinic! Let's shut them all down!", and all the while, individual liberties get pulverized into dust to satisfy the people who can scream the loudest. Did anyone watch the video posted on the Tyranny of the Shrill Minority? When does it end? It's like always giving in to children who throw tantrums, before long the screaming never ends and you end up with very spoiled and nearly worthless kids.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

It's the point of no return. Abolition was the raison d'être of the Republican Party.

...and Lincoln already said he wasn't pursuing it. You've created a situation where unless a Democrat gets elected it's auto-out. My way or the highway. That's BS.

Originally Posted by subego 

The North was grinding the South under its heel. The South was cut out of the revenue stream as soon as things passed the raw material stage, and it got the shit taxed out of it before it left... all picked by the slaves the North had a problem with except when they were buying the product.

And the tax money, where did it go? To build infrastructure in the North.

And then, the North, who built their empire on the backs of their slaves and basically let them rot, pulls up the ladder while disapprovingly wagging its finger.

Can I get a good link so I can read what you're talking about. Like a section of wiki. I don't want to respond until I have context.

---

Virginia started out with like, 10 representatives, New York had 6. Fifty years later Virginia has gone up a couple representatives, and New York has 30.

I understand not liking it, but WTF? What's supposed to happen? Tell NY to stop breeding? As it is Virginia already had more representatives than it should thanks to the 3/5th rule. Also, we still have the great equalizer – the Senate. No breeding yourself into power there.

[Doc HM]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

here it is again: trying to force conformity with what you think is the ideal isn't liberal.

So, isn't this the thing. You have every right to wear this flag, to fly it from your home, to paint it on the roof of your car and to stand outside saluting it until the cows come home. It's your flag, and you feel that way about it. Great. And people can respect that, or draw their own conclusions about your beliefs, (rightly or wrongly))

However, the debate so far, and history as made indicates that it is simply not everybody's flag, and infact for a significant section of the population represents oppression and exclusion. Oppression and exclusion that (lets not forget) was legally ended only a few decades ago so well within a large number of peoples living memory.

As such this symbol has no place flying from institutions that are there to represent all the people. Every one. Turning up at state or government buildings flying a flag that you intimately associate with oppression and abuse of human rights is only going to alienate and divide.

So, if it is your flag (for whatever reason) fly it. But not on government (and thus everybody's) property.

Seems simple enough.

btw as half scottish with family and stuff in Scotland, I've never believed the scots hate the English any where near as much as people like to say. As WAS pointed out they voted to stay, Maybe that's some of that cultural misunderstanding you have going on there Captain?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

So, isn't this the thing. You have every right to wear this flag, to fly it from your home, to paint it on the roof of your car and to stand outside saluting it until the cows come home. It's your flag, and you feel that way about it. Great.

Thank you for reminded me. This is about removing state recognition of the flag. People can still fly it from their houses and cars all they want if they want to show off their 'southern pride'. When a state flies it, its different.

[The Final Dakar]

Let me simplify this further: The states clearly said they seceded for slavery, therefore they can not claim the flag symbolizes something different.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

...and Lincoln already said he wasn't pursuing it. You've created a situation where unless a Democrat gets elected it's auto-out. My way or the highway. That's BS.


Can I get a good link so I can read what you're talking about. Like a section of wiki. I don't want to respond until I have context.

---


I understand not liking it, but WTF? What's supposed to happen? Tell NY to stop breeding? As it is Virginia already had more representatives than it should thanks to the 3/5th rule. Also, we still have the great equalizer – the Senate. No breeding yourself into power there.

The Senate is why the South insisted on parity above all else.

The criticism isn't that New York got its population by breeding faster, it's because the Federal Government was unevenly spending money on infrastructure. New York had more population because it was made a better place to go, at the expense of the South.

I'll try to hook you up with links.

I'm not saying Lincoln's election caused the break, his election was the last straw. The break happened in 1850, after parity was lost. 10 years, three free states, the victory of someone who wasn't even on the ballot in most of the Southern states, and the economic factors I mentioned above prompted the split.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

So now we're moving the goal posts from the Civil War to reconstruction?

Do you want to understand the South's feelings about the rebel flag or not? You can't talk about the Civil War without also looking at Reconstruction and the havoc that wreaked on the Southern states (as if having most of their cities burned to the ground wasn't bad enough).

This doesn't absolve them for participating. You're putting forth an argument that all you need to be is stupid and history should absolve you of misguided flag worship, even when you're informed better.

So it's now "worship"? Who's moving goalposts? They're no more stupid than Americans buying into the propaganda of the "savage red man" or "evil Japs".

Oh puhlease. No one should be praised for doing the obvious to not die.

Spoken like someone who's never dealt with daily enemy occupation.

Yeah, he crippled their infrastructure. Same thing we do in other wars (See: Germany). I also don't for a moment doubt that if the reverse had happened the South would be ok with it and say it was the price of gaining their freedom.

You regularly like to pin actions and emotions to people without a shred of evidence, then just assume you're right. That's a bad habit. Like I said, Sherman torched the South and it was far beyond burning infrastructure. What he did to Atlanta alone would now be against the Geneva convention and considered a war crime.

So now we're at a place where if you rebel it's insulting if you don't trust them afterwards. You guys are as emotional delicate flowers as liberals.

You have room to talk, considering this whole thread is about a small, yet extremely vocal, portion of the population with hurt feelings.

That's pretty much what's happening now.

Bullshit. This goes back to my point about government needing to grow a spine and start ignoring the hysterical.

Good thing blacks have all that mobility to do so. Oh wait...

You mean blacks living in St Louis whining about a flag in S Carolina? I guess all those native americans that see the US flag as hateful and a sign of tyranny can just move too, right? At what point do we stop taking offense at anything?

People who actually fly the flag are the minority!

No they aren't, not in S Carolina.

...and the South doesn't understand the relationship African-Americans have with the flag. That's what this thread has been about from the get go. 'Rebel' southerners prioritize their emotional take on history versus African-Americans. The difference being if you look at the war based on the facts, black americans have a pretty good point. Does the resurgence of 60s not count for anything either? The KKK?

No, it's about a bunch of loudmouths who don't live in a place crying over a thing they can't understand that has nothing to do with them. Social Justice in action! The blacks who live in S Carolina and see it waving every day do have a point, and a method for airing their grievance and working for change within the structure of the law. Unfortunately, however, we've learned to just pitch a hissy fit to try and get what we want.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Doc HM 

So, isn't this the thing. You have every right to wear this flag, to fly it from your home, to paint it on the roof of your car and to stand outside saluting it until the cows come home. It's your flag, and you feel that way about it. Great. And people can respect that, or draw their own conclusions about your beliefs, (rightly or wrongly))

If it wasn't a burial monument you'd have a point. It isn't flying in an official capacity, or as a sign of governance, it's a grave.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Let me simplify this further: The states clearly said they seceded for slavery, therefore they can not claim the flag symbolizes something different.

That's a horrendous turn of logic, how do you even come up with that? They can say it symbolizes whatever they want. Where it was flying at the S Carolina capitol it symbolized remembrance for the South's honored dead and it flew over their memorial.

[Waragainstsleep]

I don't know why anyone would want to force conformity for conformity's sake. I'm all about pulling out all the stops to try to convince people who are doing, saying or thinking something stupid or wrong that what they are doing/saying/thinking is stupid/wrong and that they should really try to stop doing/saying/thinking it.
Defending something that no-one can reasonably deny is a potent symbol of racism with pretty weak arguments strikes me as stupid and wrong.
I guess I can see the spirit of rebellion as something to celebrate proudly but when you are rebelling against progress (I have noticed that you spit the word progressive with the sort of venom that many conservatives spit the word liberal {you sometimes do that too}) and equality that is not something to be proud of.

Some people are like political Goths, rebelling against mass produced pop-progress, high-charting forward thinking and the winners of America's Got Equality©.
Some things are "good" because they're popular. Some things are popular because they're good.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

I don't know why anyone would want to force conformity for conformity's sake. I'm all about pulling out all the stops to try to convince people who are doing, saying or thinking something stupid or wrong that what they are doing/saying/thinking is stupid/wrong and that they should really try to stop doing/saying/thinking it.
Defending something that no-one can reasonably deny is a potent symbol of racism with pretty weak arguments strikes me as stupid and wrong.
I guess I can see the spirit of rebellion as something to celebrate proudly but when you are rebelling against progress (I have noticed that you spit the word progressive with the sort of venom that many conservatives spit the word liberal {you sometimes do that too}) and equality that is not something to be proud of.

Some people are like political Goths, rebelling against mass produced pop-progress, high-charting forward thinking and the winners of America's Got Equality©.
Some things are "good" because they're popular. Some things are popular because they're good.

Wow, 3 logical fallacies in one post, you're on a roll!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Because changing policy and laws based on a wave of public histrionics is a shitty way to run the government. We have way too much of that going on already; "Someone's been shot! Ban guns!" "Someone hurt my feelings on the Twitter! Let's pass laws against trolling!" "We found a dirty abortion clinic! Let's shut them all down!", and all the while, individual liberties get pulverized into dust to satisfy the people who can scream the loudest. Did anyone watch the video posted on the Tyranny of the Shrill Minority? When does it end? It's like always giving in to children who throw tantrums, before long the screaming never ends and you end up with very spoiled and nearly worthless kids.

This government is (perhaps by design) one of the slowest moving and gridlocked systems the world has ever seen. I'm not seeing this legislation based on histrionics, I see this country as being incredibly slow in changing most things. If this wasn't so we would have legalized gay marriage years ago, challenged gun control laws more vigorously years ago, etc.

I think you just hear about these individual cases of histrionics just because they get media attention, but they don't seem to affect larger political agendas much.

If you are so hell-bent on academic self-righteousness, why do we celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25? Some things are so just because they are so, and perceived ways just because they are. Joe sixpack doesn't care about your nuanced academic arguments (which seem very debatable anyway), but many care about race-related murders.

[OAW]

So let me get this straight ....

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants

You mean blacks living in St Louis whining about a flag in S Carolina?

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants

No, it's about a bunch of loudmouths who don't live in a place crying over a thing they can't understand that has nothing to do with them. Social Justice in action!

We all know that was directed at me. Yes I'm from STL. And you claim to be from Tennessee. So neither of us are in South Carolina. Yet my criticism of the Confederate Flag is "whining" yet your defense of it is what exactly? According to your own words you don't live there either.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants

The blacks who live in S Carolina and see it waving every day do have a point, and a method for airing their grievance and working for change within the structure of the law. Unfortunately, however, we've learned to just pitch a hissy fit to try and get what we want.

So the local blacks have a point by your own admission. Which is the exact same point yours truly from STL is making. Which is the exact same point people from all walks of life across the country are making. Yet somehow people outside of South Carolina "can't understand" the issues at hand ... even though they are articulating the exact same point that the local African-American population is making. You see this is what happens when you insist upon defending the indefensible and the facts are clearly against you. You start making ridiculous and contradictory statements that make no sense whatsoever. Like this dumb sh*t right here ....

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants

If it wasn't a burial monument you'd have a point. It isn't flying in an official capacity, or as a sign of governance, it's a grave.

Now didn't you just say that the local blacks DO have a point? But if it's waving over a "grave" and it isn't flying in an "official capacity" or as a "sign of governance" then Doc HM DOESN'T have a point. But they are making the exact same point! WTF!!

OAW

[besson3c]

Don't worry, OAW, I got this...

Cap'n Tightpants: are you racist?

The trap has been laid!

[Chongo]

So, when the "Stars and Bars" have been removed from public view, what is the next target, "Old Glory?"
Once again, Minister Louis Farrakhan
Louis Farrakhan : “They Don’t Give a Damn About Them 9″ | 105.9 FM and AM 630—Where Washington Comes To Talk | WMAL-AF

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Can I get a good link so I can read what you're talking about. Like a section of wiki. I don't want to respond until I have context.

The Economics of the Civil War

This article covers most of the issues I mentioned, which were economic. It's long, but the first half is the relevant part.

[OAW]

^^^^

That's the same article I have referenced extensively in this thread. Without question the industrial revolution in the north was financed by slave labor in the south. Good stuff in there.

OAW

[subego]

It posits the big mystery isn't why the South seceded, but why the North risked killing the goose with the golden eggs.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This government is (perhaps by design) one of the slowest moving and gridlocked systems the world has ever seen. I'm not seeing this legislation based on histrionics, I see this country as being incredibly slow in changing most things. If this wasn't so we would have legalized gay marriage years ago, challenged gun control laws more vigorously years ago, etc.

I think you just hear about these individual cases of histrionics just because they get media attention, but they don't seem to affect larger political agendas much.

If you are so hell-bent on academic self-righteousness, why do we celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25? Some things are so just because they are so, and perceived ways just because they are. Joe sixpack doesn't care about your nuanced academic arguments (which seem very debatable anyway), but many care about race-related murders.

That's the worst excuse imaginable, "We're impatient, do something now or we'll have a conniption!" Yes, that's what society is devolving towards, a very bitchy minority controlling everything for everyone else.

(and I don't celebrate Christmas on Dec 25th, that's Jan 7th.)

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OAW 

So let me get this straight ....

That would be a first.

We all know that was directed at me. Yes I'm from STL. And you claim to be from Tennessee. So neither of us are in South Carolina. Yet my criticism of the Confederate Flag is "whining" yet your defense of it is what exactly? According to your own words you don't live there either. :stick

:

Yes, you're being a whiny little brat about something that isn't your business.

So the local blacks have a point by your own admission. Which is the exact same point yours truly from STL is making. Which is the exact same point people from all walks of life across the country are making. Yet somehow people outside of South Carolina "can't understand" the issues at hand ... even though they are articulating the exact same point that the local African-American population is making. You see this is what happens when you insist upon defending the indefensible and the facts are clearly against you. You start making ridiculous and contradictory statements that make no sense whatsoever.

You're rather obtuse, and apparently can't see obvious things when they don't fit with what you want. See, there's a system in place for them to address their issues as S Carolinians; petitioning lawmakers, filing suits, even peacefully demonstrating. That's the way the system is designed and there's a reason for it, so that a small group doesn't hold the rest of the public hostage based entirely on what they feel is right.

Now didn't you just say that the local blacks DO have a point? But if it's waving over a "grave" and it isn't flying in an "official capacity" or as a "sign of governance" then Doc HM DOESN'T have a point. But they are making the exact same point! WTF!!

Anyone in that state can address anything they want, from important matters down to the absurd, they can make any point they want. That doesn't mean it will hold traction, but in this instance it likely would because of prevailing currents in society. They talk with their reps, get a bill drafted, maybe picket the capitol a little, and "wala" new laws are made, old laws are changed, shit gets done, and all without interference from non-state citizens who don't have a clue regarding the culture or history of the area in question.

One of the ironies of all this is that taking down one rebel flag has led to countless others going up to take its place. My state has Sons of the Confederacy vanity license plates (rebel flag is displayed on them), in my county only 2 of them sold in 6 months, I guess people who wanted them already had them. When this shit went down, however, the clerk's office sold 40 in just 2 days. My local VFW is flying the rebel flag, something I've never seen them do before, and so is; the masonic lodge, the local deli, our library, and 5 other businesses on main street alone. For ****'s sake, I've seen it waving in public so much it makes me think we've gone back in time 150 years. These guys can't keep them in stock.

Please be advised that due to unprecedented demand for our confederate flags, shipping may take several weeks. We do, however, have them in stock and orders will be shipped in the order they are received, so reserve your flag today!

There's your pushback, hope you enjoy it.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

(and I don't celebrate Christmas on Dec 25th, that's Jan 7th.)

Still holding on to the Julian calendar?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Don't worry, OAW, I got this...

Cap'n Tightpants: are you racist?

The trap has been laid!

Isn't everyone, at least just a little? Typically whites draw my ire more than anyone else, so I guess I'm more bigoted against them.

Here's one for you, do you understand due process?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Still holding on to the Julian calendar?

Force of habit from being Orthodox for so long.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Yes, you're being a whiny little brat about something that isn't your business.

Sounds just like the oft-repeated protestation of many southern whites during the Civil Rights Movement ...

Our nigras were doin' jes' fine until these outside agitators showed up.

Funny thing is ... the primary “outside agitator" who was inserting himself into things that southern whites considered to not be his business was MLK. By your thinking he must have been a "whiny little brat" as well.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants

You're rather obtuse, and apparently can't see obvious things when they don't fit with what you want. See, there's a system in place for them to address their issues as S Carolinians; petitioning lawmakers, filing suits, even peacefully demonstrating. That's the way the system is designed and there's a reason for it, so that a small group doesn't hold the rest of the public hostage based entirely on what they feel is right.

Anyone in that state can address anything they want, from important matters down to the absurd, they can make any point they want. That doesn't mean it will hold traction, but in this instance it likely would because of prevailing currents in society. They talk with their reps, get a bill drafted, maybe picket the capitol a little, and "wala" new laws are made, old laws are changed, shit gets done, and all without interference from non-state citizens who don't have a clue regarding the culture or history of the area in question.

So IOW you are just going to duck the issue.

For the record, initially you said local blacks HAD a point. Not that they could simply MAKE a point as citizens of the state of S. Carolina. Then you turned around and said that Doc HM did NOT have a point. Even though he was saying the same thing as the local black population. You aren't fooling anyone dude. Except yourself perhaps.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants

One of the ironies of all this is that taking down one rebel flag has led to countless others going up to take its place. My state has Sons of the Confederacy vanity license plates (rebel flag is displayed on them), in my county only 2 of them sold in 6 months, I guess people who wanted them already had them. When this shit went down, however, the clerk's office sold 40 in just 2 days. My local VFW is flying the rebel flag, something I've never seen them do before, and so is; the masonic lodge, the local deli, our library, and 5 other businesses on main street alone. For ****'s sake, I've seen it waving in public so much it makes me think we've gone back in time 150 years. These guys can't keep them in stock.

There's your pushback, hope you enjoy it.

So let's see here. Neo-Confederate white people start behaving like petulant children when they are no longer able to force African-Americans, whites, and other ethnic groups who justifiably reject their racist little flag to fund its presence on public grounds in the State Capitol with their tax dollars? I'm shocked. Shocked I say!

OAW

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by OAW 

Sounds just like the oft-repeated protestation of many southern whites during the Civil Rights Movement ...

You live by false equivalence so I'm not surprised you think that.

Funny thing is ... the primary “outside agitator" who was inserting himself into things that southern whites considered to not be his business was MLK. By your thinking he must have been a "whiny little brat" as well.

and there's more of it. You and your ilk aren't even a pale shadow of that man. Hell, you aren't worthy to carry his jockstrap. This isn't the 1960s anymore and all of this nonsense over a piece of fabric flying above a memorial is the epitome of 1st world problems compared to what he had to handle.

So IOW you are just going to duck the issue.

For the record, initially you said local blacks HAD a point. Not that they could simply MAKE a point as citizens of the state of S. Carolina. Then you turned around and said that Doc HM did NOT have a point. Even though he was saying the same thing as the local black population. You aren't fooling anyone dude. Except yourself perhaps.

Now who's ducking? Bitching about semantics. The citizens of S Carolina can choose how to deal with their own issues, they don't need screwups like you telling them how to live their lives and handle their own internal matters. The only fools in this are people like you.

So let's see here. Neo-Confederate white people start behaving like petulant children when they are no longer able to force African-Americans, whites, and other ethnic groups who justifiably reject their racist little flag to fund its presence on public grounds in the State Capitol with their tax dollars? I'm shocked. Shocked I say!

Pot, meet kettle. All that projection in one place, if you weren't such a dim bulb someone could set up a movie theater around you.

Like I said before, enjoy the blowback from this, as 100s of thousands of Rebel flags go up all over the country to counter the forced removal of one. Hope you enjoy watching them wave.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Like I said before, enjoy the blowback from this, as 100s of thousands of Rebel flags go up all over the country to counter the forced removal of one. Hope you enjoy watching them wave.

Yeah we shouldn't ever do anything about racist symbols on government buildings because it will piss off the racists. Such a noble rebel spirit.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Yeah we shouldn't ever do anything about racist symbols on government buildings because it will piss off the racists. Such a noble rebel spirit.

Amazing how such basic concepts seem to elude CTP.

OAW