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AGE · Jul 30, 2001, 11:11 PM

I think I speak for alot of ppl when I say "THE QUICKSILVER G4's ARE THE UGLIEST AND MOST RUSHED APPLE SYSTEM IN JOB's ERA"!

You can just tell this system was a "back-up" system incase they couldn't get the "real" DDR systems out intime.
I mean cmon guys just look how ugly and how "concept-like" it looks.
YuK I think the sawtooths and yosemite looks a million times more pleasing to the eye.
This is why apple has put the price up on all the models to cover for the development of it and the money they spent on the DDR macs that were supposed to be released.
The only thing they have going for them is well...A new updated speaker.
Apple stuffed up and should have encouraged more sales by actually Dropping the price of the system like they did with the new IBOOK.
The new G4's are a rip off and are starting to make me hate apple and their "what ever we release is the best and we charge what we want" attitude, just like the CUBE, I mean what a rip off, so they lower the price but do they learn? NO, along comes Quicksilver.

IBOOK is the only system apple has released at a competeive , even the imacs are underfeatured and overpriced.

the whole mac range except the laptops are stale and overpriced, i will just wait for a G5 if I ever decide to buy a new mac...
I mean ppl felt "cheated" when they paid premium's of $1500 extra for the run out sale of the G4 733 only to discover it was to be released even cheaper in the next round. Imagine how you'd feel if you paid $6000aus for a G4 then g5 comes out next macworld or 2 and is 64-bit/266bus/8XAGP...

This isnt a case of "yeah but computers are always getting faster", its a case of we know the G4 has run its rounds and is on its last legs so apple should sell it cheaper and keep the huge rip off prices for its next system G5. I just hate how they release this god ugly rushed quicksilver crap and expect us to believe its new technology thus warranting the extra $500 price hike! When a range of computers has been out for a while all companies strive to sell more at a cheaper price, you only pay premium at the start cause they have to cover development costs...No No not apple they believe we should pay extra for the new case and speaker.

(you can tell Im angry cause I feel apple never learns, like from the cube)

Jul 30, 2001, 11:17 PM

ha ha ha ...

a joke right?

blakespot · Jul 30, 2001, 11:40 PM

AGE: You are a flaming, raving idiot.

blakespot

mrchin · Jul 31, 2001, 12:34 AM

...and the prices have not gone up except for the entry level model. And, If I'm correct, that already happened at SanFran. Same prices since the G3s.

applenut1 · Jul 31, 2001, 12:40 AM

you are completely right AGe and unfortunately the majority of people here are idiots who will never understand.

for some reason they think that a nVidia Geforce 2 MX is cutting edge and that a 2500 dollar PowerMac that ships with less RAM than a 1499 imac is a good deal.

cmcleod design · Jul 31, 2001, 12:43 AM

i think the price hike he is talking about is what is happening here in New Zealand and Australia. When the Quicksilver G4s were released, Apple here chose to raise the prices for the new stock

superlarry · Jul 31, 2001, 12:45 AM

um, i think my cube is great..
i'd be willing to take one of these new towers off of your hands if you're unhappy. however, i do agree with you on the price issue, though. look at people running for cubes now that the prices are down - there are like 2 new posts about it every time i visit.
building my own pc is looking better and better..

nah, what am i saying.. i love macos, and hopefully soon i'll be loving osx. as long as there is fully-functional software and reliability, i am sticking around. heck, i don't care all that much about the case.. gimme a wooden one and i'll spraypaint it to look unique.

oscar · Jul 31, 2001, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by applenut1:
you are completely right AGe and unfortunately the majority of people here are idiots who will never understand.

for some reason they think that a nVidia Geforce 2 MX is cutting edge and that a 2500 dollar PowerMac that ships with less RAM than a 1499 imac is a good deal.

Did it occur to you that people have different opinion as you?
1. Name another resonably priced graphics card that compares (aside from radeon of course)
2. They had different shipping times. Imacs just started shipping, while the pro towers were 7 monthes ago, kinda bad taking a shot at apple for "progress"

3. Personal attacks just lead to fights, please refrain from doing it in the future.

applenut1 · Jul 31, 2001, 03:14 AM

Did it occur to you that people have different opinion as you?
1. Name another resonably priced graphics card that compares (aside from radeon of course)

why no radeon? it's not us mac users have much more choice? and you make it seem like the geforce 2 mx is in the same price bracket as the radeon. only to apple it is. on the pc side its a low end card that sells for around 100 bucks.

2. They had different shipping times. Imacs just started shipping, while the pro towers were 7 monthes ago, kinda bad taking a shot at apple for "progress"

what are you talking about? perhaps you missed it.. new G4s were released 2 weeks ago at MWNY. the 2499 model comes with 128 MB RAM. the 1499 iMac comes with 256. explain that

JLL · Jul 31, 2001, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by applenut1:
you are completely right AGe and unfortunately the majority of people here are idiots who will never understand.

Ooh, the all knowing applenut has spoken again. We're sorry not to live up to your standards, Master applenut.

Bonehead!!

Originally posted by applenut1:
�and that a 2500 dollar PowerMac that ships with less RAM than a 1499 imac is a good deal.

Of course the amount of RAM is the only difference between an iMac and a Power Mac - idiot!

applenut1 · Jul 31, 2001, 03:32 AM

lol. JLL, you are a perfect example

Jul 31, 2001, 04:43 AM

they're always going to get you, it doesn't matter when you buy they'll always be something better.

sure i would have liked to see ddr ram, thats why i was waiting to buy at this macworld

i went ahead and bought one anyway, even though i've been waiting for an awesome g4 from apple since yikes, i realize that i may get my ddr ram next time, but they'll just be something else i'm waiting for then.

so it comes with slightly older tech than the pc world, im not going to switch platforms because of that, the entire reason i prefer macs is the state of mind, the smooth and catered-to-the-user OS, and not the same heartless, mindless, "every user will do it this way" stamped out crap that microsoft/wintel pumps out every couple of months.

perhaps wintel users have better hardware, to me the software is more important, at least right now, or until they come out with hardware that performs oral sex on the user.

Jul 31, 2001, 04:44 AM

they're always going to get you, it doesn't matter when you buy they'll always be something better.

sure i would have liked to see ddr ram, thats why i was waiting to buy at this macworld

i went ahead and bought one anyway, even though i've been waiting for an awesome g4 from apple since yikes, i realize that i may get my ddr ram next time, but they'll just be something else i'm waiting for then.

so it comes with slightly older tech than the pc world, im not going to switch platforms because of that, the entire reason i prefer macs is the state of mind, the smooth and catered-to-the-user OS, and not the same heartless, mindless, "every user will do it this way" stamped out crap that microsoft/wintel pumps out every couple of months.

perhaps wintel users have better hardware, to me the software is more important, at least right now, or until they come out with hardware that performs oral sex on the user.

SJ · Jul 31, 2001, 04:45 AM

Originally posted by AGE:
I think I speak for alot of ppl when I say "THE QUICKSILVER G4's ARE THE UGLIEST AND MOST RUSHED APPLE SYSTEM IN JOB's ERA"!

You sure as hell don't speak for me. They are only ugly in YOUR opinion, not mine. I personally think they are very nice looking machines

This is why apple has put the price up on all the models to cover for the development of it and the money they spent on the DDR macs that were supposed to be released.

You can thank the crappy Aussie dollar for that one. Complain to the nut-jobs in Canberra, not here.

The only thing they have going for them is well...A new updated speaker. Apple stuffed up and should have encouraged more sales by actually Dropping the price of the system like they did with the new IBOOK.

The price structure of the iBook and G4's are completely different, please don't compare them. You will also find that, if Apple didn't price the G4's higher, the iBook/iMac would not be as cheep. The G4's and PowerBook subsidize the iBook/iMac.

The new G4's are a rip off and are starting to make me hate apple and their "what ever we release is the best and we charge what we want" attitude, just like the CUBE, I mean what a rip off, so they lower the price but do they learn? NO, along comes Quicksilver.

The Cube was meant to be a luxury computer, therefore priced accordingly.

The whole mac range except the laptops are stale and overpriced, i will just wait for a G5 if I ever decide to buy a new mac...

Ahh, but then the G6 will be around the corner. You can't win.

(you can tell Im angry cause I feel apple never learns, like from the cube)[/qb]

How about this... You go build a computer from scratch... design the motherboard, case and everything else... market it, and try and sell it. Then come back here and tell me how easy it was.

Building computers takes time. My guess is that Apple wasn't ready to release the new DDR/G5/SuperDuper Mac's yet. Give it time, and it will all happen.

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: SJ ]

CRASH HARDDRIVE · Jul 31, 2001, 04:57 AM

Originally posted by <unregistered>:


perhaps wintel users have better hardware, to me the software is more important, at least right now, or until they come out with hardware that performs oral sex on the user.

Hummm... maybe Apple can get replace the speaker hole on the case and install an Acc-U-Jack 2000 drive in it's place! Also a multi-speed optical vibra-mouse!

AG3 · Jul 31, 2001, 07:41 AM

Applenut 1 and few others understand.

To clear things up:
I am not a flamer, I have been on these boards for ages, my real name is ThE OutsiDer but for some reason when i re-registered it didnt show that name up (will fix soon), I for one was a macboy even through the dark years, how many of you who flame be were apple loyal then?
I buy apple for the OS and their hardware that all works properly with the OS, I am sick of apple repackaging the same crap with a pretty case and saying how cool it is and putting up the price so you think its newer thus marginally better than the last.

Look guys why did they get rid of the radeon?
Because in bulk the mx costs less so apple can save more money in their pockets but NOT pass the savings to their customers.
The G4 733 costs less but does not come with super drive and is a scaled down cacheless version of its previous G4 733...
Apple is cutting costs but NOT PASSING THE SAVINGS ON...
In australia if you add it up every mac HAS gone up in price reguardless of the exchange rate, if you look at the usa prices they are about right.

Cmon guys you know Im right, its ok to complain when apple does wrong, it only FORCES them to get better...

Previous grievences that have made apple better:

We complained about 3d cards, thus they made a deal with nvidia.

We complained about how there is no cd burners in the mac range, then they included them and also gave us the superdrive.

We complained about the ipuck and keyboard not being extended.

We complained about how underfeatured the Ibook was, now its the best laptop available.

We complained about MHZ gap, now we get dual options.

We complained how underfeatured and overpriced the cube was
(cube was the best designed mac but to expensive).

Apple needs us to tell them we know they are taking advantage of us or if they are not giving us what we want, otherwise they slack off.

You watch when the next mac comes out and has all the goodies, youll see how right I was.

When a model gets to its last generation in the process line its supposed to get cheaper and cheaper, stream-lined and more economical to make..
Noo no not apple they needed the revenue so they could get through the drought till their next system which obviously wasnt ready to come out.
No wonder why they say all the pc manufacturers are slowing in sales but not us...

When It comes down to it the quicksilver case is ugly and rushed, you know im right, its only good cause it has a dual 800 option.
It just looks to concptual, I mean look at the handles, they look so cheap, no pinstripping, its just so un apple like.
The point is the new quicksilvers are rushed, but apple should not have put the prices up and underpowered them! radeon is still the best mac card out cause its drivers are far more matured!

mikerally · Jul 31, 2001, 08:03 AM

To those who think the new G4 case is ugly.

PLEASE DON'T STATE IT AS IF IT IS A FACT.

You are entitled to your opinion, but don't use it as a basis of arguing over a lackluster of features.

In return for this, I feel I ought to post my opinion on the new case...

I think it is a BRILLIANT refinement. I hated the strippy "corrogated card" look that went all the way back to the Blue And White G3 case, but I tolerated it and got used to it.

I think the lighter greys are much better, and makes the machine stand out LESS for those who don't like the sort of attention an iMac gets.

The speaker, although may not be a major audio improvement, definately LOOKS A LOT better, it doesn't look like it is anything cheap, and it's design looks quite similar to a subwoofer.

The rearrangement of the Power, Restart, and Programmers buttons are much better. Before people at my work place could not tell the difference between the restart and programmers buttons, now it's easy to tell.

The drive bays look better, they don't look like the corrogated pieces of plastic that were slapped on. When you eject the drive you can see how sophisticated the new plates are, they have a mechanism behind them the kindly eases them open and shut - it looks very professional.

The lack of a drive door button, encourages users to use the keyboard eject button, which is much better - and the door responds instantly - always!

And I am speaking in real life experience here, I have been using Quicksilver in real life, and I PREFER the new case to any other previous incarnation of Macintosh tower case I know.

rogerkylin · Jul 31, 2001, 08:16 AM

AGE:

You may be right about the cas being rushed. But have you seen it in person? I like it better in person then in pictures, but not everybody will. Generally speaking, if you thought the old g4 was great, almost anything will not be as nice, until you get used to it...I remember when the Ford Taurus came out however many years ago, I thought the thing was ugly, but turns out that was the new trend in the u.s. auto industry.

I'm not sure how about the g4/cube comparison. In concert with the pricepoint, there was little reason to buy one unless you were willing to pay a premium for the 'cool' and quiet enclosure. Someone on these boards pointed out if it was introduced a year earlier, when the economy was better, it may have succeeded.

Outsider · Jul 31, 2001, 08:49 AM

Give applenut a break. He's only 16. Also it was stated that the old G3/4 case was a million times better than the Quicksilver case. How do you quantify that? I think (and this is my opinion) that the QS case is more refined.

DoctorGonzo · Jul 31, 2001, 08:49 AM

We complained about 3d cards, thus they made a deal with nvidia.

And made the lowest-end card standard.

We complained about how there is no cd burners in the mac range, then they included them and also gave us the superdrive.

They also got rid of the DVD option on almost all of their desktops.

We complained about the ipuck and keyboard not being extended.

Two years after its introduction, we got a mouse that offers none of the functionality most users of other platforms (and Mac users with 3rd party mice) take for granted and is essentially a cooler looking version of the puck. No scroll wheel, no second button, no option to get a mouse with such features without going to a 3rd party. Even then, you've already paid for one mouse.

The keyboard lost its power button and that was moved to the ridiculously priced displays to encourage you to buy everything from Apple. What an improvement.

We complained about how underfeatured the Ibook was, now its the best laptop available.

Might as well cancel the Powerbook line then. The iBook is a good consumer laptop. It is by no means the fastest, most capable laptop in existance.

We complained about MHZ gap, now we get dual options.

Too bad for everyone without 3 grand to spend, eh?

We complained how underfeatured and overpriced the cube was
(cube was the best designed mac but to expensive).

User complaints had absolutely no effect on the discontinuation of the Cube. It had everything to do with the fact nobody bought them.

Apple needs us to tell them we know they are taking advantage of us or if they are not giving us what we want, otherwise they slack off.

True.

But the same mentality that prevails in a nation at war is widespread in the Mac community. The feeling that the battle is so important, that criticsm of the larger entity cannot be tolerated, that it might somehow weaken the positon of Mac users everywhere. There is still this feeling that there is a great "holy war" going on between Apple and the x86/Windows world, when in fact, that was over by the middle of the last decade. Steve got it right, Apple lost. Time to move on.

Criticsm of Apple may get better products introduced. It might not.

However, it is clear that the willingness to accept whatever Apple decides to do is not helping. Nor could it. Apple is a company and not a friend. If it sees that its customers will tolerate anything, it will feel free to do just about anything in an attempt to extract more money from said customers. If the customer base doesn't hold the company responsible, then the drive to create truly great products will be superceeded by the willingness to accept "good enough" or less. We have seen Apple drift towards that in the past few years.

You watch when the next mac comes out and has all the goodies, youll see how right I was.

If I've learned one thing by hanging around online Mac communities over the past few years. it's that some radical, wonderful Mac that will make up for all the shortcomings of the current line and covert all Windows users, is coming at the next trade show/Apple Event.

And when it doesn't, it's coming at the one after that.

And the one after that.

And so on, and so forth.

I'm wating for this magical machine to arrive. Apparently Apple's been working on this thing since 1997.

I'm sure it will turn heads and bring out the credit cards.

Sure of it....just a little more time.....

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: DoctorGonzo ]

KeyLimePi · Jul 31, 2001, 09:26 AM

I seriously doubt AGE has even seen a Quicksilver in person. I've been to the Apple Store in Tysons and they actually look pretty sharp.

(jeez applenut, what the heck are you doing encouraging this guy? We all miss the AI forum, but c'mon, choose your battles, will ya?)

maddog · Jul 31, 2001, 09:38 AM

Jesus, did you forget that the top of the line G4 2 weeks ago is not the entry level G4? (well, basically)

Give your head a shake man.

And the RAM thing - BIG F'IN DEAL. Go buy 512 MB of RAM for $70 somewhere and shut up. They're giving the iMac 256 so it won't be such a piece of **** at OSX.

AGE · Jul 31, 2001, 10:00 AM

Guys I have seen the quicksilver in person, im a graphic designer...
It is personal pref, but its so obvious that it is rushed.

damn it now outsider is here and has taken my name...again...here goes for more identity confusion. (gotta learn to live with it then)../.

itpga · Jul 31, 2001, 10:31 AM

I don't know about the design but sure the price is a bit high, IBM has released a PIII 1000MHz system for $500. And if Apple wants to have more then 6-7% of the PC market then they will need to cut prices. And yes the GeForce 2MX is not a highend it doesn't even have DDR and you can buy it for $100, and it sits in a computer that costs $2000. And Apple is making almost 30% on every mac it sells.

Treebeard · Jul 31, 2001, 11:11 AM

To those who think that Macs are ridiculously overpriced, do some research. I did. (This is from a previous thread--although in the original I kept the SuperDrive in Apple's machine, while I exchanged it for a Combo Drive here.)

Dell>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>Apple
1.8GHz P4>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;867MHz G4
128MB RDRAM>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>128 MB PC 133 SDRAM
60GB HD>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>60GB HD
19" Trinitron monitor>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>19" Trinitron monitor
3yr warranty>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>3yr warranty
32MB GeForce 2MX>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>32MB GeForce 2MX
16x DVD-ROM>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>>>>>>Com bo
8x4x32 CD-RW>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Combo
SB Live Sound>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>Digital audio
Altec speakers w/ subwoofer>>>>>>>integrated HK speaker
Dell JukeBox>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>>>>>>iTune s
56k modem>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>56k modem
10/100 NIC>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>>>>>>>1 0/100/1000 NIC
6 months Dellnet>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>>>----------
USB Keyboard>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>USB Apple Pro Keyboard
MS Intellimouse>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>Apple Pro mouse
photo software>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>-----------
IEEE 1394 card>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>FireWire onboard
DV editing software>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>iMovie 2
Stylus 777 >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>Lexmark Z32
1394 cable>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;FireWire cable
USB Cable>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>USB cable
Windows ME w/ XP coupon>>>>>>>>>>> OS 9.2 and OS X 10.0.4 installed
--------------------------------------------------------------------
$2311>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;>>>>>$2731

The Dell system is $420 cheaper. But again, the Dell has no Gb NIC, both its front drive bays are used, and at least 1 PCI slot (and possibly 2, but I'm not sure) is taken.

But of course, 128 MB of memory is an insult on such a high end system. Let's add a 512MB chip and see what happens. For the Mac, 512MB of PC 133 memory is $63 at 1-800-4-MEMORY. For the Dell system, 512MB of RDRAM at 1-800-4-MEMORY is $699.

Final cost for equally configured systems:
Dell - $3010 (couldn't find Dell's education pricing...do they have it?)
Apple - $2794 education / $2941 retail

Dell's advantage evaporates in a puff of reality. Dell's system is more expensive, and less expandable. (And, of course, for the Dell, add another $100 and take away another PCI slot for a 10/100/1000 NIC, for a true comparison.) Factor in Apple's generally (though not always) superior parts and longer lifespan, and Apple clearly provides a much better value.

The truth is that Wintel makers are more flexible in their pricing, and there is more hardware variety--so you can notch things up or down as you need and want. Whereas with Apple, they include all these bells and whistles to lower the cost per unit, but they end up limiting flexibility.

To that it must be added that Apple is becoming much more flexible at the online Apple Store: change processors, change drives, etc.

It was pointed out that if you build your own Wintel/Linlon system from scratch, you can save even more. True. But that's comparing oranges and Apples. Dell or Compaq or whatever doesn't sell individual parts, and neither does Apple.

As for the difference in performance, I don't need to go into that here. But two recent stories I read are worth noting:

1) Processors--A recent article benchmarked the 733 G4 to a 1.8 P4. Out of eight tests, the G4 won 4 and the P4 won 4. The 867 is about 15% faster than the 733. A dual 800 system would provide about twice the performance.

2) Audio--A recent Johns Hopkins study found that a G4 (pre-Quicksilver) running OS X 10.0.4 had the lowest audio latency of any system tested, even under load, and beating even a dual P3 with a professional sound card installed. OS X 10.1 is expected to improve performance.

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Treebeard ]

The Ancient One · Jul 31, 2001, 11:13 AM

Quicksilver proves apple never learned from the CUBE...

Sure they did - they sold me one and I never bought a Cube!

Amorph · Jul 31, 2001, 12:37 PM

Hmm.

The graphics card options available to Apple are: The Radeon, the GeForce2MX, and the GeForce3 (now that the Rage128 has finally passed on as a desktop option). The other cards aren't designed to run on Macs, so it's pointless to complain about their not being there. If the higher-end GeForce2s ran on Macs I'm sure we'd see them as options.

Apple doesn't make 30% on all their machines. Their profit margin on iMacs has sunk as low as 10% on some models. Where do they make that up to get an average of 30%? Take a wild guess.

The simple fact is that Apple's primary customers for the half-million or so PowerMacs sold every year are graphic design and publishing firms, who buy them in quantity, and they pay what it costs to get what they need, period. (Why else do you think Apple crows about including Gb ethernet standard on the things? For gaming?) They didn't blink at the price of the 9600, and they're going to blink at the price of the Quicksilver either. Would they like Macs to be cheaper? Sure, who wouldn't? But they'll pay the premium. They have for years now. In the big picture, it isn't very much money. Apple prices accordingly. And their shareholders like that.

In the current economy, pleasing shareholders is Good, especially since it seems that Apple is expanding its user base at the same time. Even if it means that, for individual people, the towers aren't exactly a bargain (although a comparably equipped name-brand PC isn't going to be all that much cheaper).

Milo Waye · Jul 31, 2001, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by AGE:
[QB]I think I speak for alot of ppl when I say "THE QUICKSILVER G4's ARE THE UGLIEST AND MOST RUSHED APPLE SYSTEM IN JOB's ERA"!
QB]

AGE,
Well, that's what ya get fer thinking..

Anyhoo, I know I'm not about to change your mind, beauty's in the eye o the beholder; but I really like that "rushed" front panel. More 'of a piece', carved, sculpted, even retro. I dig it.

luap82 · Jul 31, 2001, 01:22 PM

as far as pricing goes, i dont think an argument for the mac is (or ever has been) price. Anyone that says a PC with the same features as a Mac will cost just as much is wrong. PCs are cheaper. Simple as that, why do you think they sell so much? and furthermore, who the H3LL would pay 699 bucks for 512MB of RAM???? obviously someone who does not do their research. at pricewatch.com you can get 512 megs for $37. 699 would get you 2 gigs of RAM. Do your research and chose your arguments. Macs aren't cheap.
-LuAp

Phoible · Jul 31, 2001, 01:41 PM

The $699 was for 512 MB of RDRAM (Rambus, the only supported memory for now on the P4), which is still kind of high. The cheapest price that I can find on 512 MB of RDRAM is $300 (although you can do it for just over $200 if you go with 2 256MB RIMMS). I think that will switch the price advantage to the DELL, even with gigabit ethernet added. While you are at it, you might want to knock the price of the Firewire card off of the DELL. Most people (not everyone, but the majority) don't use the digital video editing features, especially on a business machine like a DELL.

waffffffle · Jul 31, 2001, 01:41 PM

I am going to refrain from entering many of the arguments in this thread, since they have been argued at great lengths before. But on the one argument over the apparent ugliness of the quicksilver enclosure, I have a comment to make.

I was at Macworld and I saw the keynote from a little room with a big screen. Onscreen I thought it was extremely ugly, but when I saw it in person I quickly changed my mind. I was very impressed with it's appearance aside from one problem, the speaker hole is a recipe for disaster. In an environment with children around it is very likely that the speaker can be broken. Otherwise they look VERY nice in person. I was in JandR Computer World on sunday and they had a quicksilver next to an old G4 (wide case) and the quicklsilver was by far nicer looking. Wait until you see one in person to pass judgement.

Amorph · Jul 31, 2001, 01:42 PM

luap82 wrote:

and furthermore, who the H3LL would pay 699 bucks for 512MB of RAM???? obviously someone who does not do their research. at pricewatch.com you can get 512 megs for $37.

You misread. The original post said:

Let's add a 512MB chip and see what happens. For the Mac, 512MB of PC 133 memory is $63 at 1-800-4-MEMORY. For the Dell system, 512MB of RDRAM at 1-800-4-MEMORY is $699.

If you can find 512MB of RDRAM (RAMBUS memory, used by the P4) for $37, there are a lot of people who'd love to know.

InterfaceGuy · Jul 31, 2001, 02:02 PM

Personally I love the new look of the G4. I've owned a G4 for almost two years. I've recently became very tired of the current look of the G4. It just started looking old. The pinstripes, in particular, were making me sick. I knew something new would be out at Macworld and was very happy with what it was. I now have the new G4 at home and love it. I do think that Apple could put more memory in the G4s though it is very cheap now. I purchased 512MB from Macsolutions for around $80 after tax and shipping.

As far as it being a rush job... I do believe this was a back up system incase the other wasn't ready but I doubt it was a rush job. I think this machine was ready long ago incase the new system wasn't.

Treebeard · Jul 31, 2001, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Phoible:
The $699 was for 512 MB of RDRAM (Rambus, the only supported memory for now on the P4), which is still kind of high. The cheapest price that I can find on 512 MB of RDRAM is $300 (although you can do it for just over $200 if you go with 2 256MB RIMMS). I think that will switch the price advantage to the DELL, even with gigabit ethernet added.

I can't find it that cheap anywhere. Where'd you look? My brother-in-law would love to know. He feels like he's stuck at 128MB for a while. (This reinforces one of my points though: with the two added chips, you've further limited the Dell's expandability.)

While you are at it, you might want to knock the price of the Firewire card off of the DELL. Most people (not everyone, but the majority) don't use the digital video editing features, especially on a business machine like a DELL.

This was a Dell Dimension 8100, classified as a home/small office computer, and their only machine that carries a P4. (Dell's business machine is the Optiplex.) This is what Dell consumers buy if they want a P4. And in any case, the point was to show a price comparison with equally configured machines--that's why I stuck the 1394 card in. I recognized this point when I mentioned Apple's lower level of flexibility (Wintelers can leave out stuff they don't want and drop the price).

With the cheaper memory you found (and adding in the Gb NIC), Dell does come out ahead. But not by much. Add to that the greater expandability and the lower TCO of the PMac, and Apple is still the winner.

Add the DVD burner--$235 for the PMac; $1000 (minus the cdrw and dvd drive) for the Dell--and Apple wins again on price.

Somebody on these boards recently did a more comprehensive price comparison and other models, and interestingly the supposed low-cost PCs became really bad deals--underpowered and expensive--when compared to the iMac, when even half the iMac's featured were added.

Point: Macs and PCs are pretty much equal when it comes to price. Apple builds things on-board making things low-cost but not giving you a choice, while PC makers let you add them into PCI slots at a higher price and sacrificing expandability. PCs are only significantly lower-cost when many of the features Apple builds into the system are missing. (And this isn't even true over time, as Macs last significantly longer than their Wintel counterparts.)

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Treebeard ]

Leonard · Jul 31, 2001, 04:47 PM

I like the new case.

As for Apple not learning... I think they are starting to learn and listen to their customers...

customers wanted better graphics cards ---> we got the Nvidia Graphics cards including the new Geforce 3.
customers wanted more PCI slots ---> the G4 went from 3 PCI slots to 4 PCI slots; also slightly "faster" PCI slots
customers complained about no write-combining on the Macs ---> the G4 got write-combining
customers wanted AGP cards that provided 2 monitor support ---> an NVidia card with 64MB and twinview was introduced
customers wanted quieter G4s ---> G4 Cube was introduced
customers wanted a flat-panel display between 15" and 22" ---> a 17" flat-panel display was introduced.

Unfortunately, for each of the above I can probably include something negative that happened as well... like the damn Radeon disappearing from the BTO list... I'll get over it eventually.

Brian McHale · Jul 31, 2001, 05:24 PM

I find it unusual when the Topic for a Post is: "Quicksilver proves apple never learned from the CUBE..." and the opening argument is: "I think I speak for alot of ppl when I say "THE QUICKSILVER G4's ARE THE UGLIEST AND MOST RUSHED APPLE SYSTEM IN JOB's ERA"!"

Is there anyone who thinks the Cube is ugly? Everybody admits that the only reason the Cube didn't catch on was that it was way overpriced for the capability it provided. At the time it was introduced, the entry level desktop G4 cost less and provided more capability. Unless you really wanted/needed the Cube's look/form factor, there was no reason to consider it.

Compared to what Apple has offered the last few years, Quicksilver provides good value (in fact, I just ordered a dual 800

); the Cube only started to provide "value" after it had already become a colossal marketing failure and they had to slash prices to get ANYONE to buy them.

phobos · Jul 31, 2001, 05:51 PM

Everyone accuses AGE as idiot a man who posts his opinions as facts but ALL OF YOU ARE DOING THE SAME THING.WAKE UP.He posts an opinion and the only thing that blakespot has to post is that he is an idiot.Hmm That's a mature behaviour.Blakespot you are new to these forums so why don't you behave your self??Why are you insulted??Oh I get it.It's you who designed the new tower...And oscar why are you attacking at applenut when other people have started the whole thing??
3. Personal attacks just lead to fights, please refrain from doing it in the future.
This statement goes to the other guys also not only applenut.OK???
I'm not trying to take anyones side.I don't care.But I think that on these forums there are a lot of people that are so immature.
And AGE is right.Geforce on the macs sucks.O.K???Believe it or not.The geforce 2 is an MX version which means IT's ****...The drivers are badly written and that means that you can't see the cards power at full speed.
And treeberd f*$# Pentium4.Who cares about it??Put a thunderbird
on the setup you or the other person posted and you see a huge difference.The thunderbird beats every Power MAC.It's light years faster.And also who cares about the expensive DELL machines.Built a machine with the componets you want and for the same money you have a computer which is much much faster then your Power mac.
And one last thing.Stop dreaming.Macs are expensive.iMacs are overpriced.Here in greece the 600MHz iMac costs 2000$ !!! Who is going to buy an iMac when with the same money they can buy something better than that.And don't start about Power Macs.Your hearing apple's advertisements about super power and let's face it it's not so super.
I don't care what certain people think when they read this post but you have to be more careful when you post something.People are insulted.And guys like you piss me off.

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: phobos ]

Jul 31, 2001, 06:19 PM

Jesus! phobos, applenut, age, lets all check are Pampers with dry weave, ok guys? It's not the end of the world! Settle down a little before you fill your Depends undergarments.

As i've said before, its the OS that matters more to me and obviously it matters more to you otherwise you woudlnt be reading these forums in the first place. Yes you can whine and bitch for hardware improvement and you may get it and all that is fine but don't act like the rest of us are morons because we are content with our machines.

And another thing, phobos, no one gives a sh*t what pisses you off.

The Ancient One · Jul 31, 2001, 07:11 PM

As i've said before, its the OS that matters more to me and obviously it matters more to you otherwise you woudlnt be reading these forums in the first place. Yes you can whine and bitch for hardware improvement and you may get it and all that is fine but don't act like the rest of us are morons because we are content with our machines.

EXACTLY!!!

I needed a new machine, and soon. If all Apple had was OS 9.x I would have gone over to the dark side. I am really looking forward to OS X 10.1 on the dual 800. As long as Apple has the best OS, they will get my money. It's that simple.

Jul 31, 2001, 08:14 PM

yo folks,

I found this little article quite interesting.
http://www.aapltalk.com/roguesgaller...otout0701.html

Kind of kills the whole "Macs are expensive" theory.

I would pay the extra money if I needed to in order to buy a mac but I don't need to because they are competitive with their prices. The only thing is I'm not able to buy a really crappy machine from apple.

Oh wait if I want a sub-par machine I can buy it from ebay.

AppleCello · Jul 31, 2001, 09:55 PM

Here is the deal: (definitively)

The powermacs are not at the leading edge of the curve. but thats not to say that they are falling behind.

The macs have some features (superdrive) that are far ahead of all else, but a lot of there stuff is stale. THe motherboard could use a revamp, although it isnt behind the current trend. The trick is to keep it cutting edge.

I think that applenut wants apple to stay either very far ahead, or make either price/cpmonent concessions

The whole RAM deal that was pointed out is a big problem, esp at that price. They eithrt need to cut prices or give out wads of ram. etc.

macvillage.net · Jul 31, 2001, 10:15 PM

I don't think that small changes are rushed. The new G4 is "refined" not "redone" that's a big difference. The purpose was to improve the design not to create a new one.

Apple wants to stun you with the G5.

nana2 · Jul 31, 2001, 10:25 PM

Ok, at www.gateway.com I configured a Gateway Select 1400 machine with the following specs:

1.4GHz Athlon
256MB SDRAM
60GB hard drive
GeForce3 - 64MB DDR. plus 10/100 NIC
16X DVD-ROM drive
12x8x32x cd burner
Boston Acoustic speakers and sub
56K modem, Office XP small business edition
Windows ME -pos but no option for win2k I can find.

all for the cost of US$1878, compared to the $2,049 machine in that comparison list you gave http://www.aapltalk.com/roguesgaller...otout0701.html

Yes, for ~$150 dollars less you can get a machine with 2 separate optical drives, and a geForce 3! (no monitor yet)

Let's say $50 for a firwire card.

As for all this incredible baying about 1000BaseT. What are all you guys plugging your networks into? Are you running crossover between two 1000BaseT machines? Or are you running it through $1600 dollar 4 port Gigabit switches? Or $3,000 dollar 8 port switches? I certainly hope you aren't running it on those nasty 10/100 switches, after all what's the point of saying you have 1000BaseT when you can't run at that speed?

The point is that the Mac cannot win at this time on hardware price, it used to be able to at one stage, but not for several years now.

cube-dude · Jul 31, 2001, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
I don't think that small changes are rushed. The new G4 is "refined" not "redone" that's a big difference. The purpose was to improve the design not to create a new one. Apple wants to stun you with the G5.

This (and oscar's third point) are the best things to come out of this thread.

c-d

[edit: grammar]

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: cube-dude ]

Macintosh · Jul 31, 2001, 10:43 PM

Does anybody know how much Apple makes per computer? What is the margain?
I was told 40%. Is that an accurate number? I also though most PC vendors
make near 5%. HELP!

AGE · Jul 31, 2001, 10:44 PM

No! NO! no!

Its funny how many of you bag me calling me an idiot, then you add the "macs will always be expensive, get over it" argument.

READ, this post is about how I think the quicksilver was rushes and how apple put in cheaper and underpowered parts for THEM to save and not you!
Apple IS keeping the profits and not passing them on, when a product reaches the end of its life its supposed to gradually get cheaper because of refinment to the production... No no not apple they bring out this case and put the price up making you think you are getting a new generation tower. THATS WHAT MY ARGUMENT IS ABOUT!

And why are ppl even comparing DELL to apple, DELL does not use the latest parts,AMD now has mobo's that support DDR, in oz DDR 256megs is $40 more than SDRAM 256megs 133...

Phobos and applenut1 understand...

Sure its my OPINION that the quicksilver is ugly, but lets not steer away from the fact that its a "back up" case bought out incase the newer G? wasn't ready... It just showed, the last macworld was a snoozer and you could tell they had to stall for time, there was just to much "filler ads" crap in the keynotes. I say that werent ready and quicksilver was a backup.

Ohh and I never said the CUBE was ugly, infact I love it but it was a huge rippoff here in oz, I need a mac thats fanless but has the power of a highend PPC. The cube was overpriced, and the quicksilver is too, thats the similarities. I hope no-one buys quicksilver so apple learns to stop overcharging and underfeaturing.

Radeon should be standard.
MX is not a solution, it has immature drivers.
When superdrive goes on sale in the pc world for $1400aus, lets see if apple drops the price...I bet it will take them a few more months to just so they can scrape every bit of extra doe from it.

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: AGE ]

AGE · Jul 31, 2001, 10:55 PM

If its so refined, then why didnt it go cheaper?
Everything that is manufactured gets cheaper as the refinment and production process is streamlined...no no not apple.

Is it just me or are apple ppl like George Lucas fans, whatever crap Lucas releases like Episode One, Lucas fans will always say he's a genious.

Apple isn't perfect ppl, they make money off hardware, in-fact most their money is made from that, and if they can cut corners to make more they will, but don't expect to get some of the savings.

PPL make this thread a crusade and brand me as a non apple loyalist, i don't care cause I am a designer, and I could'nt give a crap what photoshop is on...

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: AGE ]

Macintosh · Jul 31, 2001, 11:07 PM

Description

Dell Dimension 8100 Series
Dimension� 8100 Series, Pentium� 4 Processor at 1.8 Ghz
Qty: 1
Price: $3,883.00

Date:
Tuesday, July 31, 2001 9:54:05 PM CDT

Catalog Number:
29 19

Dell Dimension 8100 Series:
Dimension� 8100 Series, Pentium� 4 Processor at 1.8 Ghz
D8118NW - [220-9121]

Memory:
128MB PC800 RDRAM
128M8 - [311-8424]

Keyboard:
Dell� Enhanced Performance USB Keyboard
EPUSB - [310-2754]

Monitor:
19 in (17.9 in viewable,.25-.25AG)P991 FD Trinitron� Monitor
P991 - [461-2540]

Video Card:
32MB NVIDIA GeForce2 MX 4X AGP Graphics Card with
TV-Out
32NVMXT - [320-3269]

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60GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive
60 - [340-1928]

Floppy Drive:
3.5 in Floppy Drive
3DHS - [340-2805] [461-2956]

Operating System:
Microsoft� Windows� Millennium Edition with WinXP Home
Upgrade Coupon Offer
WMEXP - [313-7222] [412-1050] [420-8050]

Mouse:
MS IntelliMouse�
IM - [310-2757]

Network Card:
Integrated 3Com� EtherLink� 10/100 Ethernet Controller
IN - [461-1292]

Modem:
56K Telephony Modem for Windows ME- Sound Option
56KWS - [313-5551]

DVD-ROM or CD-ROM Drive:
16X DVD ROM Drive for 32MB NVIDIA Geforce2 MX AGP
Graphics Card
16DVDMX - [313-7542] [313-0438]

Sound Card:
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz DSP Sound Card
CRUZ - [313-5204]

Speakers:
Harman Kardon HK-695 Surround Sound Speakers with
Subwoofer
HK695 - [313-1487]

Bundled Software:
Upgrade to Microsoft� Office Professional w/EducateU (sku
412-1604)
XPEPROM - [412-1604] [412-2356]

Norton Antivirus� at No Additional
Charge:
Norton Antivirus� 2001, Introductory Offer
NAV - [412-4630]

Digital Music:
Dell Jukebox powered by MusicMatch 6.0
JUKEBOX - [412-1411]

Digital Imaging Software:
Image Expert� 2000, Premium Dell Edition
DPSPREM - [310-1444]

Limited Warranty, Services and
Support Options:
3 Year Ltd. Warranty, 3 Year At Home Service, Lifetime 24x7
Phone Support
S3OS - [950-1270] [950-1272] [950-3339]

Internet Access Options:
6 Month Dellnet� by MSN Internet Access [add $0]
MSN6MO - [412-0265]

Power Protection:
APC SURGESTATION PRO8T2
PRO8T2 - [519230]

Dell Movie Studio:
Dazzle Analog/Digital 1394 PCI Card, Connection Box and MGI
VideoWave 4 Sfw
DZLCRD - [320-8679]

Networking - Phoneline or Wireless:
Dell TrueMobile 1150 Wireless Networking
T1150PC - [430-1653]

Networking - Phoneline or Wireless:
Dell TrueMobile 1150 Wireless Networking Base Station
WIREBSE - [430-2763]

CD-RW or CD-RW/DVD Combination
Drive for 2nd Bay:
16X/10X/40X CD-RW Drive
16CDRW2 - [313-3305]

Digital Imaging Accessories:
Digital Imaging Solution
DPSPACK - [1000024P] [130540] [1000006P]

Dell Movie Studio Accessories:
Belkin 1394 Cable (4 pin to 6 pin) 6 ft
CAMCBL - [785858-4]

Dell Movie Studio Accessories:
Dazzle USB Digital Video Creator for Analog to MPEG Digital
Video Conversio
DAZZLE - [759505]

Dell Dimension 8100 Series
Dimension� 8100 Series, Pentium� 4 Processor at 1.8 Ghz
Qty: 1
Price: $3,883.00

SpeedRacer · Jul 31, 2001, 11:38 PM

Chalk me up to another long-time Mac user disappointed with the state of the current PowerMac lineup.

At MWNY there was a tremendous amount of hoopla about how you could get a 733 for the price of a prior 450 on the low-end. But this perspective misses out on the fact that the high-end has only gone up by 100mHz over the course of six months. The fact of the matter is that the Quicksilvers give more of perception of increased performance from the elimination of a broad mHz spread (466-733) to a narrow spread (733-867). Add this to the fact that the prior G4 line had been running at just around 500mHz since as far back as September of 1999 and there's plenty of reason for discontent with both Motorola's comatose development of the G4 processor and Apple's take-it-up-the-rear stance of the issue.

You can talk all you want about mHz myths and marketing but if the G4 is such a more advanced chip than the P4 where was this marketing push a six months, 1 year, 2 years ago? Wouldn't the G4 have been even more advanced a chip and (it would stand to reason) the push for marketing of the "mHz myth" even more necessary at that time than now? Or perhaps it is just more benificial in the face of being completely slaughted in the processor dept to push an alternative, highly-biased, and marketing-driven approach to your product?

Either way, the reality is that while other companies have been engaging in competitive price-cuts and margin-reductions to attract new business, Apple has been increasing the price of its most popular line (iMac) approximately $100 every six months, adding additional features to compensate for an inability to reduce prices in line with the rest of the industry (CDRW, 128MB RAM, MX2 graphics), and pushing an operating system that feels infinitely slower, runs less software, and demands significantly higher hardware specs than any other version of MacOS to date.

10.1 looks promising if only b/c it will finally bring performance up to what it should have been 6 months ago. 867mHz looks fast only b/c we've been stuck at 500mHz for nearly 2 years. And Apple looks innovative and fast only b/c of a team of marketing geniuses unlike anyone else and a customer base more loyal than a Lassie on her 5th box of Milk-Bones.

Speed

NeoMac · Jul 31, 2001, 11:54 PM

The speed increase from January is 134Mhz, not 100Mhz.

867 - 733 = 134