[rpd2005]

Originally Posted by azbigfella

I have one of the new 15" PBooks, but I don't think I have "the problem"...

I tried all the patterns, and the only flicker I found was on the "Line-Paired Pixel Dot-Inversion Test" (but very slight) and the "Line-Paired Dot-Inversion Test (green)" (a little more noticible). All other test patterns were clear and flicker-free.

So, can you tell us what that might mean? Thanks,
AZB

I am not an expert on LCD's, but I was expecting the problem displays to be using a line-inversion display rather than "line-paired pixel dot" display. A line-inversion type display might show the symptoms people are describing if it was miscalibrated at the factory.

[pete]

Originally Posted by gentryfunk

Here is my PB screen...not the best quality and as close as I can get. Anybody see lines?

TGF

screen shot.jpg

Please try to post again as there is no link in your post.

Thanks!

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by dave

Nope. Jon Hicks has now declared he does have the issue.

Also, does anyone have a color cast ( on the left side of the screen), when using the D50 calibration?

And doesn't anyone get killer headaches?

The headaches are EXACTLY why I decided to return mine-even with the screen seeming to clear up after an OS reinstall.

[pete]

So I just got my new powerbook G4 from amazon. It's beautiful, but of course the lines are present. PLUS, there is an outward dent just above the display release button. As if I needed that!

What bothers me the most is the way the screen seems to 'vibrate'or flicker. It's so subtle that it's barely noticeable, but my eyes hurt almost immediately just by looking at it. So, back it goes. I wish I could find a place that sells the old 1.67 that has a generous return policy - the thought of buying from a shop that doesn't allow you to return does not appeal to me given Apple's QC problems (this is not my first experience with this) - if anybody knows of one please let me know.


As I write this, my eye are hurting - crazy. That's never happened with any screen before this one.


Oh, just discovered a THIRD flaw: the space bar doesn't work on the right and left sides, only in the middle and left. I thought it was weird that so many words ended up together and then tried pressing the sides...

This is crap.

[rpd2005]

Originally Posted by azbigfella

I have one of the new 15" PBooks, but I don't think I have "the problem"...

I tried all the patterns, and the only flicker I found was on the "Line-Paired Pixel Dot-Inversion Test" (but very slight) and the "Line-Paired Dot-Inversion Test (green)" (a little more noticible). All other test patterns were clear and flicker-free.

So, can you tell us what that might mean? Thanks,
AZB

I had a reply but it seems to have disappeared. (?) (Edit: Ok, now it's appeared)
I am not an LCD expert, but I would guess that the displays with the problem are of the line inversion type (which refreshes alternate lines), and that the calibration to make sure the lines are equal brightness wasn't done properly at the LCD factory.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by pete

What bothers me the most is the way the screen seems to 'vibrate'or flicker. It's so subtle that it's barely noticeable, but my eyes hurt almost immediately just by looking at it. So, back it goes. I wish I could find a place that sells the old 1.67 that has a generous return policy - the thought of buying from a shop that doesn't allow you to return does not appeal to me - if anybody knows of one please let me know.


As I write this, my eye are hurting - crazy. That's never happened with any screen before this one.

This would correspond with some of the findings from the Apple discussion board about the refresh rate of some of the affected displays being 43-50 Hz rather than 60, in my opinion.

[pete]

rpd2005,

That sounds like an interesting theory. I wonder if that could be corrected with a firmware update?

[wildcard]

Well, mine went back for engineering review today. I'll be getting a replacement from all indications. I'm debating not even opening the second box if it has a W8 serial number.

If I hear anything from the engineer or the product specialists, I'll pass it on...

[azbigfella]

Originally Posted by rpd2005

I am not an LCD expert, but I would guess that the displays with the problem are of the line inversion type (which refreshes alternate lines), and that the calibration to make sure the lines are equal brightness wasn't done properly at the LCD factory.

Well, fortunately, whatever they did worked, because my screen is brilliant -- I love it. I spend hours a day on my PBook (my G5 is getting jealous...). I took it (the PowerBook) down to a client site i was working at today and everyone is very impressed it -- including the display. Everyone wants one now...
AZB

[GoCats]

Originally Posted by azbigfella

Well, fortunately, whatever they did worked, because my screen is brilliant -- I love it. I spend hours a day on my PBook (my G5 is getting jealous...). I took it (the PowerBook) down to a client site i was working at today and everyone is very impressed it -- including the display. Everyone wants one now...
AZB

So, I'm confused. I thought I had read in your previous posts that you did not see any lines on your screen... did you eventually see them and then send your pbook in for service??

[azbigfella]

Originally Posted by GoCats

So, I'm confused. I thought I had read in your previous posts that you did not see any lines on your screen... did you eventually see them and then send your pbook in for service??

No need for confusion -- I haven't seen the lines, and I've never seen the lines, and neither has anyone who has seen my display. I'm not sure why you would think that I saw them and sent it for repair and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding -- but in any event, that's not the case -- it's never been a problem. As I've maintained without pause throughout this thread, I could not be happier with my PowerBook...
AZB

[GoCats]

Originally Posted by azbigfella

No need for confusion -- I haven't seen the lines, and I've never seen the lines, and neither has anyone who has seen my display. I'm not sure why you would think that I saw them and sent it for repair and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding -- but in any event, that's not the case -- it's never been a problem. As I've maintained without pause throughout this thread, I could not be happier with my PowerBook...
AZB

Okay... well, the post I quoted started with the line "Well, fortunately, whatever they did worked" which I thought meant that "they" was Apple, and "whatever they did worked" meant there was a problem and they fixed it.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion.

[azbigfella]

Originally Posted by GoCats

Okay... well, the post I quoted started with the line "Well, fortunately, whatever they did worked" which I thought meant that "they" was Apple, and "whatever they did worked" meant there was a problem and they fixed it...

That makes sense -- I should have been more clear. The post I was responding to had said something about display calibration that was done at the factory (before shipping) -- I was remarking that whatever it was they did at the factory before I got it worked in my case...
AZB

[pete]

So, guys, what do you guess will happen? Will Apple start a repair program and rectify the issue or will they just pretend that there is no problem since many users won't notice it anyway? And, will the fix be in the form of firmware update or a replacement of some part?

Obviously there are quite a few people having the issue though and it's not just about looking for it - it IS an issue. I can't believe Apple engineering is not aware of it. If they are, there are few possible reasons for their delay in addressing it: a) they are still investigating the issue and trying to understand the extent and cause of the problem b) they have identified the problem and are working on a fix and repair program c) They have seen the problem but know that most customers will never notice it and so they are ignoring it.


I really think Apple needs to acknowledge this soon in order to avoid further alienating many of its powerbook users. This is the first time I'm ready to buy from Apple but have nothing that I really want to buy. So sad.

[Zubba]

Itl probably take them as long, or slightly longer, as it took to rectify the white spot issue on some of the earlier revision PBs. I'm guessing we wont hear anything from Apple for a few weeks, but I am betting we hear SOMETHING from them.

[bwatson009]

Originally Posted by pete

What bothers me the most is the way the screen seems to 'vibrate'or flicker. It's so subtle that it's barely noticeable, but my eyes hurt almost immediately just by looking at it.

I was beginning to wonder if it was just me.. every once in a while in the upper left hand corner of the display, a weird kind of filckering pixelation/gridding effect happens. it's very subtle, and just intermittent enough to be annoying. dragging windows around in that area, particulary safari and other "aluminum" apps, can sometimes create weird pixelation that doesn't occur in other parts of the display. it is very noticeable though because most windows start in that corner of the screen! Let me know if anyone else sees anything like this...

i've done the previously mentioned test with the orange and get the weird refresh effects, uneven color from top to bottom, etc. but i've already sent back one 17, and i'm just tired of this crap. i don't have time to send it back, so here's to hoping it's firmware related!

also, my powerbook seems to make a very very intermittent high pitched, but short "screech/beep" sound. seems to come from under the right palm rest area, but it has happened a handful of times in the last week when running all day, so it's hard to tell. i don't believe there's a whole lot there beyond the dvd drive, and i have no disk in there so...?

overall, it's still a nice laptop. the screen: annoying, but i'm leaning towards it being refresh rate related, and thus fixable. beep: disturbing, i am watching this and have a backup...

b

[FONT="Verdana"][/FONT]

[Armando]

Originally Posted by rpd2005

It would be interesting if someone with the line problem tried the following LCD test images:
http://www.techmind.org/lcd/index.html#inversion

I get quite a bit of flicker on: Line-paired RGB sub-pixel dot-inversion

You may need to move the browser window down one pixel to get the flicker.

[iumeda]

All I want to know is if anyone has gotten their Powerbook back from applecare where this line issue was actually resolved???

I have my applecare box sitting on my couch and am hesitant to send off my computer after hearing someone say that their repair was estimated to take six weeks. I'll need my computer for work and I can afford that.

[technomaster]

I just opened the box of my new Powerbook (from Amazon) today, and I can see the horizontal line issue, especially when next to another LCD display (for ex, the Envision 17" LCD connected to a Mac Mini... or the display of my 867 TiPB).

It looks basically like the somewhat popular "scan line" photoshop effect that's used in the upper left hand logo for the yahoo sports pages, for example. To the untrained eye, you simply wouldn't notice it. I'm willing to write it off as a quirk inherent in the display--- not really a bug, but merely simply how it is.

My big issue is that from the moment I first turned it on, the computer emits a low volume, high pitch sound, I haven't narrowed it down exactly where it's coming from. In any event, it's really quite annoying. I've heard similar high pitched noises coming from CRT monitors + TVs. I've also had noisy hard drives, but I can't say for sure. This is a make or break thing for me... the sound drives me nuts!

[pete]

The second powerbook I got from amazon started giving off that noise too as I was getting it ready to be returned. I actually think it's the graphics card - some are noisier than others I guess.

Good luck

[rpd2005]

Originally Posted by Armando

I get quite a bit of flicker on: Line-paired RGB sub-pixel dot-inversion

You may need to move the browser window down one pixel to get the flicker.

If that is the case, I don't think the issue is calibration of the LCD. That is, I don't think re-tuning the display will help.
A question: if you move your viewing angle up and down vertically, does the line which is brighter swap with the line that is dimmer?

[iomatic]

I'd like to know how close you are when you see the lines.
I do not see the lines unless I am 6–8 inches away.

Originally Posted by technomaster

I just opened the box of my new Powerbook (from Amazon) today, and I can see the horizontal line issue, especially when next to another LCD display (for ex, the Envision 17" LCD connected to a Mac Mini... or the display of my 867 TiPB).

It looks basically like the somewhat popular "scan line" photoshop effect that's used in the upper left hand logo for the yahoo sports pages, for example. To the untrained eye, you simply wouldn't notice it. I'm willing to write it off as a quirk inherent in the display--- not really a bug, but merely simply how it is.

…

[pete]

Although the lines did not bother me that much, I DID see them quite frequently. For example the brushed metal in safari would have line through it that would disappear if I moved the window up or down a few rows of pixels. I saw this when about 15" + inches away from the display. That's my experience though.

[iomatic]

Well, like I keep saying, it's worse for some, and better for others. I'm in the latter camp, as I can't see them even 12" away. I have to be up close to see them. They are there, just not as obvious as others, I think. I don't see any line in Safari that appear or reappear, even from 8" away.

Must be really bad to warrant a complaint.

[aehaas]

New 15 inch here, got it the second week out. I put up a PS CS2 50 percent grey screen and no lines. I tried all screen brightness levels, distances form screen and angles, no lines, perfect screen. I am really impressed compared to my old 1.5 PBook. Overall good trade up.

aehaas

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by aehaas

New 15 inch here, got it the second week out. I put up a PS CS2 50 percent grey screen and no lines. I tried all screen brightness levels, distances form screen and angles, no lines, perfect screen. I am really impressed compared to my old 1.5 PBook. Overall good trade up.

aehaas

No one will believe you until you post photos. You have the lines, you just can't see them.

[brbttyl]

hey pete-
do you know what they're saying at the genius bar at the soho store? i went once for a different issue (a botched hd swap on my old PB that took them 1.5 months) and when i asked about the lines they all had no idea.

i tried the crankycat image on the 15in display models and they all have the lines.

at that point the "geniuses" were all saying they had no idea but i wonder now. i am pretty sour on having hardware replaced there after i have had so many jobs messed up by them or just take forever.

it is just more appealing to go show it to them i guess...

Originally Posted by pete

Although the lines did not bother me that much, I DID see them quite frequently. For example the brushed metal in safari would have line through it that would disappear if I moved the window up or down a few rows of pixels. I saw this when about 15" + inches away from the display. That's my experience though.

[pat++]

I went to the Apple store in London and checked the screen of a 15" model. It did have the lines issue, very noticeable on demo pictures in iPhoto. Apple needs to do something about this quickly...

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by pat++

I went to the Apple store in London and checked the screen of a 15" model. It did have the lines issue, very noticeable on demo pictures in iPhoto. Apple needs to do something about this quickly...

Or what?

[warfarer]

I have very good eyes when it comes to these things and i don't have them. I ordered my powerbook last week from Macmall and no signs of the lines. I do, however, see a bit of the lines in a few of the apps like it is the designed background for them. I opened Photoshop and put a bright white solid square on it and there are no lines on it.

For those of you with the lines, i don't see how this couldn't be solved with a simple software that could integrate into the display calibration preference. It seems as though it would just be an issue of either lightening alternating pixel rows or darkening alternating pixel rows just a bit. That would make them all the same.

[motherduce]

I've got the problem, and it's very noticeable for me. Tomorrow is my 14th day. I'm calling AppleCare tonight, and going to just return for refund tomorrow unless they can guarantee a fix.

Unfortunately, the 15" was the only machine from Apple that fits my needs to the most extent, so I'm basically screwed for now. Thinking about just getting an older 12 or 15 and using the extra money on a gaming PC.

[pat++]

Originally Posted by Fusion

Or what?

Thanks for this useful comment.

[John123]

Originally Posted by pat++

Thanks for this useful comment.

It's not like the initial comment was that helpful anyway. Stating that Apple "needs" to do something about it is hardly informative, helpful, or useful.

[YunusEmre]

Originally Posted by John123

It's not like the initial comment was that helpful anyway. Stating that Apple "needs" to do something about it is hardly informative, helpful, or useful.

I respectfuly disagree. I also think that Apple should come out and own up to it. Or at leat inform their CS people and try to address the issue in a consistent way. I called the Apple CS and they got me to do different things than others. They do not appear to be paying attention to this problem, which I find very strange. It seems Apple has no clue what is going on. Or at leat they are making a good impression of it. I think Apple should address this issue in a more coordinated and consistent way.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by YunusEmre

I respectfuly disagree. I also think that Apple should come out and own up to it. Or at leat inform their CS people and try to address the issue in a consistent way. I called the Apple CS and they got me to do different things than others. They do not appear to be paying attention to this problem, which I find very strange. It seems Apple has no clue what is going on. Or at leat they are making a good impression of it. I think Apple should address this issue in a more coordinated and consistent way.

That's all well and good... thanks for your opinion...

Now welcome to the real world:

1. Apple Co. does not care what you think.

2. Apple is ignoring the problem because to *them* it's not a problem. They acknowledge the lines. They know they are there. They know some people are annoyed with it... BUT they also claim it's within spec. End of story really.

[John123]

Originally Posted by YunusEmre

I respectfuly disagree. I also think that Apple should come out and own up to it. Or at leat inform their CS people and try to address the issue in a consistent way. I called the Apple CS and they got me to do different things than others. They do not appear to be paying attention to this problem, which I find very strange. It seems Apple has no clue what is going on. Or at leat they are making a good impression of it. I think Apple should address this issue in a more coordinated and consistent way.

I and many others have been buying Apple products for over a decade. Anyone who has bought enough Apple junk and worked with them enough knows that it's not a lack of awareness here -- it's simply turning a deaf ear to a problem that they don't think is that serious. Recognizing a "problem" would be the first step toward giving it credibility, and replacing LCD screens is extremely expensive. The lack of coordination and consistency, as you put it, is the best way for them not to go down that road.

[YunusEmre]

Originally Posted by Fusion

...

They acknowledge the lines. They know they are there. They know some people are annoyed with it... BUT they also claim it's within spec. End of story really.

When I took my 15" PB back and showed them the lines, they said yes, it is DOA. I asked for a full refund and got it. So they do not say it is within spec. in a consistent and coordinated way either.

[YunusEmre]

Originally Posted by John123

I and many others have been buying Apple products for over a decade. Anyone who has bought enough Apple junk and worked with them enough knows that it's not a lack of awareness here -- it's simply turning a deaf ear to a problem that they don't think is that serious. Recognizing a "problem" would be the first step toward giving it credibility, and replacing LCD screens is extremely expensive. The lack of coordination and consistency, as you put it, is the best way for them not to go down that road.

I hear you. But I just cannot believe they are deliberaltely keeping quite about it. Why not say it is as designed and it is not a flaw and refuse to take them back without a re-stocking fee? By declaring it DOA (as they did in my case and in many others) they are admitting it is a problem, but one at a time, if the user complains.

Anyway, I was just sticking up for a fellow user here. I returned mine and I do not care if Apple do anything about it. I was just saying it was pefectly OK to expect Apple to do something about it. Whether Apple does or not is a different matter.

[pat++]

They might just be studying the issue to find a fix, and they will provide a fix in a couple of weeks... I think this is what they did for the trackpad issue on the PowerBooks... Just a software update to fix it. And it tooks time for them to recognize the issue if I remember correctly...

[brbttyl]

YES!!! After 2 nights without sleep and the weirdest headaches thanks to Apple's new display technology, i finally produced my own "Lemon Test" graphic that will prove once and for all who has the LCD problem. I think everyone with the new faulty display will agree this is the BEST test image of any circulating on the forums.

Instructions for use
1. Show the graphic to the owner of the brand new busted powerbook. Have a good long look!!!
2. Is the person visibly angry? Is the person really angry or just "kind of angry"?

The graphic is guaranteed to provoke moderate to extreme anger in people with the bad display!!

And for the rest of you who want to know what it is like to work on this new laptop, take your older powerbook to Sea World and sit opposite a wave pool at high noon.

APPLE WHAT IS TAKING YOU SO LONG?

http://www.prohtex.com/buyme.gif

[John123]

Originally Posted by brbttyl

YES!!! After 2 nights without sleep and the weirdest headaches thanks to Apple's new display technology, i finally produced my own "Lemon Test" graphic that will prove once and for all who has the LCD problem. I think everyone with the new faulty display will agree this is the BEST test image of any circulating on the forums.

Instructions for use
1. Show the graphic to the owner of the brand new busted powerbook. Have a good long look!!!
2. Is the person visibly angry? Is the person really angry or just "kind of angry"?

The graphic is guaranteed to provoke moderate to extreme anger in people with the bad display!!

And for the rest of you who want to know what it is like to work on this new laptop, take your older powerbook to Sea World and sit opposite a wave pool at high noon.

APPLE WHAT IS TAKING YOU SO LONG?

http://www.prohtex.com/buyme.gif

I'm sorry -- was this supposed to be funny?

[mrmister]

Folks, John 123 and Fusion have made their feelings known in this thread already, and feeding their trolling isn't going to result in anything new being said by them. They'll adamantly defend Apple's right to not see this as a problem, to do whatever they wish to do as it is their company, if you don't like it don't buy their laptops, blah blah blah. Expect them to belittle you if they find grammatical errors in your posts and needle you with condescending rejoinders about your "opinions"...the list goes on.

My best advice is to simply keep discussing the issue, and ignore their posts. After all, they're both chagrined that people keep complaining--there's no need to engage with them and give more to post about.

I stopped by Tekserve and spent some time on a 15"--and as before, the lines are quite visible. I do like the increased resolution though...I'd have to work on one longer to really know if it would be a dealbreaker for me in day to day use.

[John123]

Originally Posted by mrmister

Folks, John 123 and Fusion have made their feelings known in this thread already, and feeding their trolling isn't going to result in anything new being said by them. They'll adamantly defend Apple's right to not see this as a problem, to do whatever they wish to do as it is their company, if you don't like it don't buy their laptops, blah blah blah. Expect them to belittle you if they find grammatical errors in your posts and needle you with condescending rejoinders about your "opinions"...the list goes on.

My best advice is to simply keep discussing the issue, and ignore their posts. After all, they're both chagrined that people keep complaining--there's no need to engage with them and give more to post about.

I stopped by Tekserve and spent some time on a 15"--and as before, the lines are quite visible. I do like the increased resolution though...I'd have to work on one longer to really know if it would be a dealbreaker for me in day to day use.

What the heck is there to discuss? There are lines in the 15" PowerBook displays; Apple doesn't publicly acknowledge a problem; some people are pissed while others seem not to care. No one has added anything interesting to this discussion since page 1. My continuing to maintain that it's a stupid issue to get in a tizzy about hardly qualifies as "trolling." Stop being so bitter that someone dares to disagree with you.

[Link]

FWIW sometimes my cinema display has these, but they're vertical not horizontal. It's weird, but only happens every now and then... so no real worries.

Sorry to hear about this, hopefully Apple makes a fix, but like the 1.8ghz/600 bus G5s, you might be waiting a really long time for it.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by mrmister

Folks, John 123 and Fusion have made their feelings known in this thread already, and feeding their trolling isn't going to result in anything new being said by them. They'll adamantly defend Apple's right to not see this as a problem, to do whatever they wish to do as it is their company, if you don't like it don't buy their laptops, blah blah blah. Expect them to belittle you if they find grammatical errors in your posts and needle you with condescending rejoinders about your "opinions"...the list goes on.

My best advice is to simply keep discussing the issue, and ignore their posts. After all, they're both chagrined that people keep complaining--there's no need to engage with them and give more to post about.

I stopped by Tekserve and spent some time on a 15"--and as before, the lines are quite visible. I do like the increased resolution though...I'd have to work on one longer to really know if it would be a dealbreaker for me in day to day use.

1. Are you suggesting that offering an opinion other than "yours" is trolling? Or do you have some specific examples of how I am a troll?

2. When have I EVER, in the history of my life, defended Apple on anything? I don't think Apple has the right. But whether they have the "right" to do it isn't really the issue now is it?

3. When did I belittle you? It sounds like you were offended. I apologize.

4. Are you saying that you are calling me a troll and you yourself don't even own one of the new PowerBooks that are the main topic of this thread?

[iBorg]

It's been a couple of weeks since anyone updated their experience on the screen lines (although other forums continue to discuss this), and I'm curious, now that another couple weeks' production has been shipped - is this being remedied, either with new replacement PBooks, or with repair by Apple?

I'm still sitting on the fence about buying the "last, best PPC PBook," and if newer shipping PBooks are going to be improved, I'll just wait a bit, to avoid going through the hassle of a return.



iBorg

[Kenstee]

The 15" Screen Issue? It's NOT a Hardware or Software Problem!! Bacically, Apple put in CHEAPER LCD screens. Just took my PB to an independent Apple tech. He said the screen is fine just cheaper than what they used to use. To him, looked like many screens on many less expensive Wintel laptops.

Personally, I think Apple learned a lesson and won't use them on their next PBs. But, I also believe those that bought this version are SOL. Apple will NEVER replace that many LCDs unless there is MAJOR media attention to this.

[pete]

just because it was an "indepdendent' apple tech doesn't mean he knew what he was talking about. Apple produces several display items: the ibooks, powerbooks 12" and 17", cinema displays 20, 24", 30" - none of which have this issue. So somebody at Apple sat down and thought about ways to save money and then came up with the idea that they should skimp on the 15" powerbook's LCD ?? Not that I know the details either, but I really don't think so.

[jhogarty]

Less than a month till Macworld. I'll wait it out. :-)

J.

[mduell]

If you want to suffer with this issue for a long time, follow the example of the 1.8Ghz Rev B PowerMac owners and whine to AppleCare and on forums but don't actually take any action.
If you want Apple to do something about this, start returning your 15" with lines (use your credit card company if you need to). After they eat a few thousand returns they'll get the message and switch to a better screen.