[itistoday]

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4

Most Americans can't control how much food they stuff down their throats. Now, imagen cocaine being thrown into the mix.

Haha good point However I'm not one to support protecting people from their own stupidity. Instead we should simply get rid of stupidity by better educating them. And there is a think called natural selection...

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by itistoday

Instead we should simply get rid of stupidity by better educating them.

We've already tried that and failed. The American educational system is a testament to the fact that in the fight between education and stupidity, education loses every time.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

We've already tried that and failed. The American educational system is a testament to the fact that in the fight between education and stupidity, education loses every time.

We haven't tried hard enough. Are you saying improvement is impossible? We need to first get rid of stupid programs like D.A.R.E that simply tell kids, "DON'T DO DRUGS!! THEY'RE BAAADDDDD!!" and replace them with better biology courses in 6th grade. We need to demystify drugs for these kids, explain to them exactly what they are, and how they work. Among other things...

[ndptal85]

Drug laws protect us from OTHER people's stupidity, not our own stupidity. The last thing I want is some legal crackhead walking down the street harrassing people.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by ndptal85

Drug laws protect us from OTHER people's stupidity, not our own stupidity. The last thing I want is some legal crackhead walking down the street harrassing people.

That's not how it works...

[CharlesS]

itistoday, nicotine is a terrible substance, but if you must be on crack if you think it's worse than cocaine.

[mike one]

introducing moths is about the dumbest idea imaginable.

reason 1) there are no predictive models that can guarantee that the moths won't completely destroy the local ecosystem.

reason 2) coca farmers can afford pesticides. because pesticides, especially for plants that aren't going to be consumed for food aren't expensive or hard to come by.

2¢,
mikeone, Ph.D.

[jcadam]

Originally Posted by itistoday

Dude... that's not what I'm talking about. More educated = not farmers.

Some people like farming. At least it's a viable career choice in the USA. Many colleges in the midwest even offer a degree in 'Agricultural Engineering.'

[DeathMan]

How in the world did I get this far in life without getting into drugs? Well, its too late, I know myself too well to start now.

[Il Duce]

Legalising cocaine would be a terrible idea. I agree that you probably would see a decrease in SOME of the problems common to coke abuse today, but you would introduce a slew of others (some of which are probably worse).

Cocaine is a psychomotor stimulant (like amphetamines). It increases dopamine levels in the brain. This can lead to paranoia and psychosis. I don't know about you, but I don't know many smokers who tend to flip out after their fix. Both alcohol and weed are depressants, so even if they do make you violent, you are more likely to fall over and hurt yourself than anybody else. Paranoid psychotics are not cool. They get violent and they don't listen to reason.

Cocaine is addictive. I don't care about genetic predisposition. If you do enough coke, you will get addicted. End of story. That is not something you want to make acceptable in society. I know nicotine is as (or more) addictive. I don't advocate smoking (tobacco or weed) either, and alcohol causes so many health and social problems that I wouldn't even know where to start. The point still stands - why would you want to legalise something that has the potential to ruin people's lives?

And back on topic, the moths are a dumb idea. Stuff like this never works out as planned. There is no way that the effect wanted could be restricted just to coca plants. Other plants would get eaten. There would be less food for other insects. Some species reduce in number, so others take their place. And like somebody mentioned before, I bet uncle Sam won't foot the bill when some unforseen circumstance wipes out the entire regions worth of crops.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

itistoday, nicotine is a terrible substance, but if you must be on crack if you think it's worse than cocaine.

And Clapton was wrong, she does lie.

All the time.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Il Duce

Legalising cocaine would be a terrible idea. I agree that you probably would see a decrease in SOME of the problems common to coke abuse today, but you would introduce a slew of others (some of which are probably worse).

How very vague, what other new problems that are "probably worse"?

Cocaine is a psychomotor stimulant (like amphetamines). It increases dopamine levels in the brain. This can lead to paranoia and psychosis. I don't know about you, but I don't know many smokers who tend to flip out after their fix. Both alcohol and weed are depressants, so even if they do make you violent, you are more likely to fall over and hurt yourself than anybody else. Paranoid psychotics are not cool. They get violent and they don't listen to reason.

You don't need to lecture me on what cocaine is, I'm fully aware of that. However, you should stop exaggerating so much, doing coke won't make you into a stark raving mad psycho that walks around raping children.

Cocaine is addictive. I don't care about genetic predisposition. If you do enough coke, you will get addicted. End of story. That is not something you want to make acceptable in society. I know nicotine is as (or more) addictive. I don't advocate smoking (tobacco or weed) either, and alcohol causes so many health and social problems that I wouldn't even know where to start. The point still stands - why would you want to legalise something that has the potential to ruin people's lives?

Yes cocaine is addictive. We all know this. Cigarettes more so, and so many substances, not just cocaine, cigarettes, and alcohol, but many prescription drugs, have ruined oh so many lives. You can't do much to stop this from happening, it will happen whether or not these substances are legal or not. You can't stop people from killing themselves, and nor should you. However, you can stop people from killing others. I'd link you to my previous post but they removed that feature when the upgraded the forums so I'll quote part of it:

Legalization has many other benefits as well. Check out this graph:

The 18th amendment was enacted in 1919 and repealed in 1933. Note how homicides steadly increase during this period and then suddenly drastically drop after it was repealed. Same thing will happen with illegal drugs today. We all agree that drug users will do drugs whether or not drugs are illegal. But one of the many benefits of legalization is that while you'll still have people killing themselves, you won't have people killing others.

Source: http://eh.net/encyclopedia/?article=...bition.alcohol

Countries like Italy serve wine to kids at restaurants, yet do you see thousands of drunkards walking the streets of Italy? No, you'll probably see even less than here in the United States. I rest my case. Legalization would fix many problems, and save many lives.

[Zimphire]

You don't need to lecture me on what cocaine is, I'm fully aware of that. However, you should stop exaggerating so much, doing coke won't make you into a stark raving mad psycho that walks around raping children.

Well maybe not rap children. Abuse for a long period of time indeed lead to psych problems.

Yes cocaine is addictive. We all know this. Cigarettes more so, and so many substances, not just cocaine

Oh please. I have NEVER seen ANYONE sell their belongings/daughters/sons for nicotine. You are being naive if you think cocaine is somehow less addictive that tobacco. Either that, or you haven't been around it for very long.

I've seen people's lives spiral down to the gutter in the matter of WEEKS from cocaine. Now, I am sure you are superman and have the ability to handle it.

While I am ALL FOR doing away with crimes against oneself, there is no need to make excuses, or be dishonest about the effects of cocaine.

Either

1. You really THAT naive about it all.
OR
2. You are a cocaine abuser trying to rationalize it and make it to look less harmful for your own conscience.

It's not the people that know the dangers of said drug and do it anyhow that usually get themselves in trouble.

It's the ones that lie to themselves and belittle the dangers that do.

And I have been around the block a few times in the past 2 decades.

I've seen it.

[Il Duce]

Originally Posted by itistoday

How very vague, what other new problems that are "probably worse"?

How about the social consequences of wide spread cocaine use? You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that cocaine has a greater potential (especially in the short term) for mental and physical harm. Yeah - let's legalise coke. That will make it cheap, so people won't have to spend all their money on it. There won't be any more violence because every will be able to have as much coke as they want. It won't make people violent or crazy, because this is LEGAL coke (it's different to that nasty stuff that those dirty drug dealing Colombian's sell)
</sarcasm>

Originally Posted by itistoday

You don't need to lecture me on what cocaine is, I'm fully aware of that. However, you should stop exaggerating so much, doing coke won't make you into a stark raving mad psycho that walks around raping children.

You are wrong. Small amounts of coke will not make your average person a raving psychopath that rapes children. Small amounts of coke WILL make some people psychotic, paranoid and violent. Large amounts of coke will make anyone nuts. Oh - I assume (since you apparently don't need a lecture on cocaine), you are aware of what psychosis is and how it is treated? You must also be aware of the side effects that can (albeit rarely) occur with SINGLE doses of these drugs? That is assuming that Mr or Mrs nose candy will allow themselves to be taken to hospital (and be able to pay for the treatment).

Originally Posted by itistoday

Yes cocaine is addictive. We all know this. Cigarettes more so, and so many substances, not just cocaine, cigarettes, and alcohol, but many prescription drugs, have ruined oh so many lives. You can't do much to stop this from happening, it will happen whether or not these substances are legal or not. You can't stop people from killing themselves, and nor should you. However, you can stop people from killing others. I'd link you to my previous post but they removed that feature when the upgraded the forums so I'll quote part of it:

Countries like Italy serve wine to kids at restaurants, yet do you see thousands of drunkards walking the streets of Italy? No, you'll probably see even less than here in the United States. I rest my case. Legalization would fix many problems, and save many lives.

At what point did I say that cocaine was the only drug with problems of addiction? There is a great deal that can be done about addiction to prescription medicine (it just requires time and effort). Have you thought about why people abuse drugs? It is often because their lives are **** in the first place. I think that doing something to alleviate poverty and improve a person's sense of self worth might be more useful than just legalising cocaine.

And your point about alcohol is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Of course I agree that people in Italy are less likely to abuse alcohol, and yes, this is because they are exposed to it from an early age, so drinking isn't a big deal to them. However, I am not aware of any countries that have a long standing cultural history of producing, drinking and enjoying (usually in a setting with food), cocaine. You are assuming that cocaine can be used responsibly. I disagree (in the majority of cases). Whose life would you save by legalising a dangerous, addictive drug?

I understand that we do not see eye to eye on this topic, so I will not post again. Feel free to refute any of my points if you wish. I am always interested in opposing points of view, but I doubt you will change my mind in this matter.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Well maybe not rap children. Abuse for a long period of time indeed lead to psych problems.

These problems are rare and are mainly seen in people who do it for a long time and frequently. This is the risk the user is willing to take. And there are far more cases of alcohol related abuse than cocaine related, yet alcohol is legal. However, a major problem today is that most people who do cocaine don't have any idea as to what the side effects are. This will be taken care of if it were made legal (by this I mean it'll be legal just like alcohol is, to those over 21, etc).

Oh please. I have NEVER seen ANYONE sell their belongings/daughters/sons for nicotine. You are being naive if you think cocaine is somehow less addictive that tobacco. Either that, or you haven't been around it for very long.

No, you are being ignorant if you think nicotine is less addictive than cocaine:
------------------------

Nicotine has effects on brain dopamine reward systems similar to those of drugs such as heroin, amphetamine and cocaine. In a ranking of the addictiveness of psycho-active drugs, nicotine was determined to be

more addictive than heroin, cocaine, alcohol, caffeine, and marijuana.

Source: http://www.forces-nl.org/WHO/TABLE08.html

And:

Oddly, the numbers show that nicotine is more likely to entrap users than addictive drugs that do cause intoxication. "If 100 people experiment with alcohol or cocaine, about 10 percent will become addicted," Hughes says, versus 20 to 25 percent of those who take nicotine. "So experimenting with nicotine is more likely to lead to dependence. Yet we have it reversed in our cultural norms," which stigmatize alcohol and cocaine more than cigarettes.

Source: http://whyfiles.org/024nicotine/addiction2.html

------------------------

I've seen people's lives spiral down to the gutter in the matter of WEEKS from cocaine. Now, I am sure you are superman and have the ability to handle it.

And I've seen many people able to completely control it. However, that's not to say if you do it frequently enough and for a long period of time you won't get addicted—you will—it's just that smart, educated people don't do that.

While I am ALL FOR doing away with crimes against oneself, there is no need to make excuses, or be dishonest about the effects of cocaine.

Either

1. You really THAT naive about it all.
OR
2. You are a cocaine abuser trying to rationalize it and make it to look less harmful for your own conscience.

It's not the people that know the dangers of said drug and do it anyhow that usually get themselves in trouble.

It's the ones that lie to themselves and belittle the dangers that do.

And I have been around the block a few times in the past 2 decades.

I've seen it.

Who's belittling it? Not me. However, you certainly are providing plenty of false information and completely over exaggerating its dangers. It definitely sounds like you are the one that's naive about all of this. I suggest reading up some on it.

Besides, I'm not here to argue with you about its dangers, those don't matter. What matters is that it's regulated by the government, and that the public is better informed about it. This will save many lives, and that's what matters right? You're mistaken if you think that its legalization will cause a wide-spread epidemic. Those are simply the draconian thoughts that many conservatives have, such as those that enacted the 18th amendment.

The benefits of legalization far outweigh the problems.

[Il Duce]

Originally Posted by itistoday

No, you are being ignorant if you think nicotine is less addictive than cocaine

Please read the post. You are confusing addiction with harm. They are completely different.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by itistoday

These problems are rare

No

and are mainly seen in people who do it for a long time and frequently.

And how do these people start out?

No, you are being ignorant if you think nicotine is less addictive than cocaine:

HAve you known anyone that sold their daughter for sex to get a cigarette?

Cocaine is just that powerful. Nicotine is not.

And I've seen many people able to completely control it.

Actually anytime you do cocaine, you are not totally in control. I've done it. I know. I am also not lying to myself.

However, that's not to say if you do it frequently enough and for a long period of time you won't get addicted—you will—it's just that smart, educated people don't do that.

Educated people do do it. How many people do you know that doesn't know cocaine is addictive? I mean come on really.

People STILL do heroin and cocaine knowing it can cause addiction and death.

Who's belittling it? Not me. However, you certainly are providing plenty of false information and completely over exaggerating its dangers. It definitely sounds like are the one that's naive about all of this. I suggest reading up some on it.

I've done plenty of reading, and plenty of real world usage. I used to argue how "safe" it was too. I used to be as cocky about it as you are.

But after awhile, those lies start becoming transparent.

Besides, I'm not here to argue with you about its dangers, those don't matter. What matters is that it's regulated by the government, and that the public is better informed about it. This will save many lives, and that's what matters right? You're mistaken if you think that its legalization will cause a wide-spread epidemic. Those are simply the draconian thoughts that many conservatives have, such as those that enacted the 18th amendment.

In your opinion you mean. Certainly it's not based on facts.

There will ALWAYS be something controlled by the "underground"

If cocaine became legal (It wont) something else would take it's place.

Even if you legalized all drugs. Something would take it's place.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Il Duce

How about the social consequences of wide spread cocaine use? You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that cocaine has a greater potential (especially in the short term) for mental and physical harm. Yeah - let's legalise coke. That will make it cheap, so people won't have to spend all their money on it. There won't be any more violence because every will be able to have as much coke as they want. It won't make people violent or crazy, because this is LEGAL coke (it's different to that nasty stuff that those dirty drug dealing Colombian's sell)
</sarcasm>

His rant sounds like a one dreamed up in a cocaine snow storm.

No one based too well on reality.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Il Duce

How about the social consequences of wide spread cocaine use? You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that cocaine has a greater potential (especially in the short term) for mental and physical harm. Yeah - let's legalise coke. That will make it cheap, so people won't have to spend all their money on it. There won't be any more violence because every will be able to have as much coke as they want. It won't make people violent or crazy, because this is LEGAL coke (it's different to that nasty stuff that those dirty drug dealing Colombian's sell)
</sarcasm>

Perhaps in the few months after legalization there will be greater use of cocaine, but after a while, when things die down (evil smiley), things will become just like they are in Italy. And you're also not understanding why the violence will die down. It's not because people will "have as much coke as they want", it's because you instantly destroy the entire underground that coke and other illegal drugs depends on. Look again at that graph I showed you, and you'll see this is a fact.

You are wrong. Small amounts of coke will not make your average person a raving psychopath that rapes children. Small amounts of coke WILL make some people psychotic, paranoid and violent. Large amounts of coke will make anyone nuts. Oh - I assume (since you apparently don't need a lecture on cocaine), you are aware of what psychosis is and how it is treated? You must also be aware of the side effects that can (albeit rarely) occur with SINGLE doses of these drugs? That is assuming that Mr or Mrs nose candy will allow themselves to be taken to hospital (and be able to pay for the treatment).

If there are any single-dose reactions, they are not only rare, but they are simply alergic reactions. Many people have horrible "single-dose" reactions to peanuts. There's more violence associated with alcohol than cocaine, especially when you consider the fact that most of the violence associated with coke is not a direct reaction to it, but simply things resulting from that very fact that it's illegal. "You are wrong." Pffft.

At what point did I say that cocaine was the only drug with problems of addiction? There is a great deal that can be done about addiction to prescription medicine (it just requires time and effort). Have you thought about why people abuse drugs? It is often because their lives are **** in the first place. I think that doing something to alleviate poverty and improve a person's sense of self worth might be more useful than just legalising cocaine.

Hey I agree with you, improving people's lives is a good thing! So legalize illegal drugs, and so it will be done. You will instantly get a huge influx of cash that you can use to make these people's lives better. Billions, if not trillons of dollars will be available to the government for several reasons: 1) You get rid of various organizations like the DEA. 2) You tax the **** out of the drugs. 3) You clear up the prisons of innocent people thrown into jail for illegal drug possesion (as was stated before, you save from 20k to 70k per person per year).

Then, using this extra money, you build better schools, better hospitals, fund more research to study these drugs and how to fight their negative effects, and most importantly, you educate the entire population, and create a social atmosphere just like that in Italy where it is simply not socially acceptable to do lots of drugs.

And your point about alcohol is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Of course I agree that people in Italy are less likely to abuse alcohol, and yes, this is because they are exposed to it from an early age, so drinking isn't a big deal to them. However, I am not aware of any countries that have a long standing cultural history of producing, drinking and enjoying (usually in a setting with food), cocaine. You are assuming that cocaine can be used responsibly. I disagree (in the majority of cases). Whose life would you save by legalising a dangerous, addictive drug?

Whose life? How about the policeman's life that got shot during a drug bust? Or maybe those killed by the gangs and mafia associated with the underground lifestyle created by illegalization. Or what about all the innocent, otherwise law abiding citizens that do marajuana or coke in their privacy?

I understand that we do not see eye to eye on this topic, so I will not post again. Feel free to refute any of my points if you wish. I am always interested in opposing points of view, but I doubt you will change my mind in this matter.

Oh well, not that it really matters anyways. I know legalization will probably never happen.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

No

You have any stats to back up that statement?

And how do these people start out?

Poorly educated.

HAve you known anyone that sold their daughter for sex to get a cigarette?

Cocaine is just that powerful. Nicotine is not.

Nope, don't know anyone who did that... but I've heard plenty of stories of people doing similar things for just money. Don't blaim coke on the idiotic actions of idiots.

Actually anytime you do cocaine, you are not totally in control. I've done it. I know. I am also not lying to myself.

Wrong. When you do cocaine, you are very much in control. You're the one doing the motion, the inhaling, you can easily stop when you're not addicted. It's once you become addicted that it's a problem and you really do start losing control. So try not to get addicted, will yah?

Educated people do do it. How many people do you know that doesn't know cocaine is addictive? I mean come on really.

People STILL do heroin and cocaine knowing it can cause addiction and death.

And a lot of them are fine. Some are not. It happens, as with alcohol and cigarettes. Play it smart, don't do it everyday. The best idea would be to not do it at all. Cigarettes are legal, but not everyone smokes. In fact, the amount of smokers is steadily on the decline and do you know why? It's because people are more educated about it.

I've done plenty of reading, and plenty of real world usage. I used to argue how "safe" it was too. I used to be as cocky about it as you are.

But after awhile, those lies start becoming transparent.

Stop assuming things. You argue a lot like this actually, it's one of the many reasons I really don't like you and have you on my ignore list. "I've been there man! I know it better than you, I used to be JUST LIKE YOU!! AHHHH!!" Do me a favor and don't compare yourself to me. Argue instead with facts.

In your opinion you mean. Certainly it's not based on facts.

There will ALWAYS be something controlled by the "underground"

If cocaine became legal (It wont) something else would take it's place.

Even if you legalized all drugs. Something would take it's place.

Not based on the facts??? What are you talking about man? Take one glance at the graph I posted a few posts up. Use what little logic you have to realize that destroying the underground that is supported by illegal drugs will save lives! What would replace the legalization of all drugs? And what does it matter if through legalization you save thousands of lives?

[itistoday]

There exists a thing called natural selection and survival of the fittest. It's a harsh concept, and one that some people refuse to accept because it is tied closely with the theory of evolution. Those that kill themselves through drugs or what have you, are in many ways similar to species of animals that were wiped out because they could not run fast enough from preditors. What I'm trying to say is this: certain people will do illegal drugs whether or not they are illegal. However, if they are illegal, you will have many murders: the act of killing someone other than yourself. So, it's quite simple, in both senarios you have people killing themselves, but in one you have people killing others as well. Wouldn't you rather have the one rather than both?

Edit: People have a right to kill themselves, but not others.

[itistoday]

I'd just like to reiterate a point because of its relevance and importance to this debate, so much so that I think it deserves its own little post.

It has been shown that cigarettes are more addictive than cocaine. Many of you tell me that because cocaine is so addictive it should not be legalized. Well, the fact is that in recent years the number of smokers has been steadily declining. How can this be??? It's quite simple, and I think you know why. It's because after all the trials and scientific inquiry into the tobacco industry, it was shown that cigarettes really are addictive, and that the industry was trying to cover it up. It received massive media exposure and they were prevented from advertizing on television. Now keep in mind, that as many of you are most likely aware, cigarettes kill more Americans than alcohol, car accidents, suicide, AIDS, homicide, and illegal drugs combined, yet they are legal. Soon this will probably no longer be true (if not already) because the amount of smokers is declining. It is declining because after this whole fiasco, people are now aware of the dangers of smoking; they are educated.

Same thing can easily happen with cocaine. It is less addictive, but more dangerous. So what. Legalize it. It will not consume society, trust me. You won't have people dying on the streets as if it were the plague. Lives will be saved because the underground world will be destroyed (and all the other reasons I mentioned), and the government will have more money to spend on education - something this country needs vitally.

[Zimphire]

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by itistoday

There exists a thing called natural selection and survival of the fittest. It's a harsh concept, and one that some people refuse to accept because it is tied closely with the theory of evolution. Those that kill themselves through drugs or what have you, are in many ways similar to species of animals that were wiped out because they could not run fast enough from preditors. What I'm trying to say is this: certain people will do illegal drugs whether or not they are illegal. However, if they are illegal, you will have many murders: the act of killing someone other than yourself. So, it's quite simple, in both senarios you have people killing themselves, but in one you have people killing others as well. Wouldn't you rather have the one rather than both?

Edit: People have a right to kill themselves, but not others.

But if we're using a "survival of the fittest" argument, why do why not have a right to kill others? That would likewise be an example of natural selection. The person less capable of defending himself would be selected against, just like in nature.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

But if we're using a "survival of the fittest" argument, why do why not have a right to kill others? That would likewise be an example of natural selection. The person less capable of defending himself would be selected against, just like in nature.

In nature guns do not exist. In our society today you no longer have to be "fittest" to kill someone. Now you're simply arguing for the sake of arguing, instead of addressing the point.

[Kilbey]

Originally Posted by itistoday

it's one of the many reasons I really don't like you and have you on my ignore list.

Are you Serious?!?!

And to quote you again:

Originally Posted by itistoday

[Chuckit]

I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguing. I'm arguing that survival of the fittest is not a good justification for anything. It's inhumane and immoral. I never said anything about using a gun to kill somebody. It would be wrong no matter how I did it — gun, knife or bare fist. Nevertheless, it would be survival of the fittest.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguing. I'm arguing that survival of the fittest is not a good justification for anything. It's inhumane and immoral. I never said anything about using a gun to kill somebody. It would be wrong no matter how I did it — gun, knife or bare fist. Nevertheless, it would be survival of the fittest.

People have a right to kill themselves, not others. You're completely missing the point.

[Il Duce]

Originally Posted by itistoday

If there are any single-dose reactions, they are not only rare, but they are simply alergic reactions. Many people have horrible "single-dose" reactions to peanuts. There's more violence associated with alcohol than cocaine, especially when you consider the fact that most of the violence associated with coke is not a direct reaction to it, but simply things resulting from that very fact that it's illegal. "You are wrong." Pffft.

Go do a google search on haloperidol, eps (extra pyramidal side effects) and tardive dyskinesia. Then come back when you have a clue.

[version]

Originally Posted by macintologist

Aren't there secret elements of the US Government that depend on these drug sales in Columbia to fund their Black Ops?

Put it this way. If the drug industry was to suddenly collapse tomorrow, then Wall St. would go tits up. You won;t believe how much money goes through there, and how much the US depends on it.

As to evidence of US collusion in drug smuggling/money laundering. There's a whack-load of it.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by itistoday

It has been shown that cigarettes are more addictive than cocaine.

How many people hold up liquor stores or whore themselves on the street because they're all amped up on nicotine and just ran out of cigs? Nicotine might be addictive, but it doesn't have anything like the psychoactive properties of cocaine as far as what it actually does to your brain when you take it.

If you think you can casually use cocaine every weekend and not get addicted to the sh*t, then there's not a damn thing in the world I can say to make you think otherwise. What you'll never understand until you've been there is that this is also one of the hallmarks of cocaine dependence-- an utter inability to realize that the dependency even exists. Most smokers will tell you "I'm hooked." Not a single cocaine user will. Here's what I suggest: Start out with a nice, simple quarter gram every Friday night. You know, recreational use. Then check back with me in ten years.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by itistoday

People have a right to kill themselves, not others. You're completely missing the point.

ummm, no they don't.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by chris v

How many people hold up liquor stores or whore themselves on the street because they're all amped up on nicotine and just ran out of cigs? Nicotine might be addictive, but it doesn't have anything like the psychoactive properties of cocaine as far as what it actually does to your brain when you take it.

If you think you can casually use cocaine every weekend and not get addicted to the sh*t, then there's not a damn thing in the world I can say to make you think otherwise. What you'll never understand until you've been there is that this is also one of the hallmarks of cocaine dependence-- an utter inability to realize that the dependency even exists. Most smokers will tell you "I'm hooked." Not a single cocaine user will. Here's what I suggest: Start out with a nice, simple quarter gram every Friday night. You know, recreational use. Then check back with me in ten years.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by itistoday

It wasn't irrelevant.

right here: "I am talking about the abuse, the physical problems, the drunk driving, the people STEALING, yes STEALING to support their alcohol habit."

Hopefully this translates to you shutting the **** up.

I'm actually on your side on this issue (I'd like to see legalization of all narcotics), but you're being such a putz that I feel like disagreeing with you simply out of principle. Grow up and debate in a sensible manner and keep your foul mouth under control.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by chris v

How many people hold up liquor stores or whore themselves on the street because they're all amped up on nicotine and just ran out of cigs? Nicotine might be addictive, but it doesn't have anything like the psychoactive properties of cocaine as far as what it actually does to your brain when you take it.

How many people hold up liquor stores when they're not on anything at all? Cocaine does not turn you into a violent criminal, you can't argue that. You are referring to violent criminals that happen to do cocaine. Plus, legalizing illegal drugs might even bring such crimes down, but it definitely will not drive more people to rob liquor stores.

If you think you can casually use cocaine every weekend and not get addicted to the sh*t, then there's not a damn thing in the world I can say to make you think otherwise. What you'll never understand until you've been there is that this is also one of the hallmarks of cocaine dependence-- an utter inability to realize that the dependency even exists. Most smokers will tell you "I'm hooked." Not a single cocaine user will. Here's what I suggest: Start out with a nice, simple quarter gram every Friday night. You know, recreational use. Then check back with me in ten years.

Heh, I'm not stupid enough to try that. Nor am I stupid enough to use cigarettes casually. Again, you are completely missing the point of legalization. I've stated it multiple times now, and am tired of repeating myself.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I'm actually on your side on this issue (I'd like to see legalization of all narcotics), but you're being such a putz that I feel like disagreeing with you simply out of principle. Grow up and debate in a sensible manner and keep your foul mouth under control.

Point taken, I apologize.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I'm actually on your side on this issue (I'd like to see legalization of all narcotics), but you're being such a putz that I feel like disagreeing with you simply out of principle. Grow up and debate in a sensible manner and keep your foul mouth under control.

Same here.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Il Duce

Go do a google search on haloperidol, eps (extra pyramidal side effects) and tardive dyskinesia. Then come back when you have a clue.

I skimmed a few google searches on those words, didn't reallly come up with much though. Maybe you could link me to something? I did find this however:

Psychosis is also a known side effect of the use, abuse, and withdrawal from certain drugs. So-called recreational drugs, such as hallucinogenics, PCP, amphetamines, cocaine, marijuana, and alcohol, may cause a psychotic reaction during use or withdrawal. Certain prescription medications such as steroids, anticonvulsants, chemotherapeutic agents, and antiparkinsonian medications may also induce psychotic symptoms. Toxic substances such as carbon monoxide have also been reported to cause substance-induced psychotic disorder.

Source: http://www.chclibrary.org/micromed/00062550.html

It seems like you can get psychosis not only from cocaine, but from perscription drugs, legal recreational drugs (alcohol), and even carbon-monoxide!

I was not able to find anything however, on single-dose reactions to cocaine, or anything to indicate those were not alergic reactions.

However, I will repeat for you, as I have several times already, that the side effects of cocaine carry little weight to the decision of legalizing it. This goes for all other illegal drugs as well. There are many things out there that can kill you if you eat/drink them. Not all of them are illegal. A lot can be found in your room, and your home kitchen. What saves us from all of these dangers lurking in our backyard? It is our intelligence. That is why I am for the legalization of all illegal drugs, so that the government can be the one that controls them (just like it controls the sale of alcohol), so that lives will be saved, and so that the government will save a lot of money it is otherwise wasting unneccesarily. This money will be put to better use in the education of our youth, so that they can make the right decisions on whether or not they want to use cigarettes/cocaine/alcohol, etc.

An example of the kind of education I'm referring to: A biology class in the 6th grade that teaches students the basics of how the brain works, what neurotransmitters are, etc. These classes will show exactly what happens when you take ecstasy (or what have you), why you experience a rush of happiness, and why you experience severe depression when the effects wear off. They will explain the nature of addiction and how it occurs, etc. The whole point being to demystify the alluring power that illegal drugs present to kids today.

[Zimphire]

Cocaine overdose is not nice: convulsions, heart failure, or the depression of vital brain centres controlling respiration. Result: usually death

One Nostril

The other main physical danger you face is damaging or perforating the septum, the thin membrane that separates the nostrils at the top of the nose. Regular coke snorters often suffer instant nosebleeds when snorting the drug. Occasional users may detect next-day bloodied mucus and congestion. Heavy users have their septums dissolved by corrosive effects of cocaine.
It does not grow back.

Coke Wanker

The other main danger, of course, is that you turn into a boring, coke-addled wanker spending parties in a 'coke cycle': exchanging looks with your little entourage and then going off for a toot in the toilets; dabbing every last molecule of powder off the cistern; and then rejoining the gathering with a sudden inexplicable burst of talkativeness before lapsing into frozen, jaw-clamped silence as you wait for the next line.
Cocaine is used extensively in the media and music industries.

Cocaine is a highly addictive drug. It works in the same way as heroin and nicotine by tapping in the brain's natural reward (dopamine) pathways. You experience pleasure every time you take it and a distinct lack of pleasure once it wears of, thus reinforcing the compulsion to take more. And more. And more.

Cocaine is a captivating drug that makes you feel confident, talkative, alert, quite a draw for those who find it difficult to feel that way normally. But, as the drug wears off, they are quickly replaced with the depression, anxiety and irritability of the come-down.

You will not become instantly addicted. Some people can take the same amount over extended periods and not become addicted. Availability, life style and personality are all factors.

But like occasional cigarette smoking, occasional "harmless" recreational cocaine use can slip easily into regular nasty long term abuse.

Coke Problem?

Ask yourself: if there's some coke in the house and you can't resist taking it, or you spend all your time looking forward to taking it. If yes, then you should be thinking about where your coke use is going.

When coke becomes central to your thoughts and emotions, when you start planning your evenings around the drug, then you're entering the danger zone.

Cocaine Psychosis

In the worst-case scenario, you may end up with cocaine psychosis - a none-too-nice state of craving, insomnia, paranoia, restlessness, mood swings, lack of sexual appetite and weight loss.

Some anti-drug organisations will list cocaine psychosis as the inevitable side-effect of casual use. It's not. You have to work to get there, but it's easy not to notice how close you're getting.

Good news: stop the coke, if you can, and you will revert back to normal.

I've known a lot of coke wankers in my life.

The description fits to a T.


[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Cocaine overdose is not nice: convulsions, heart failure, or the depression of vital brain centres controlling respiration. Result: usually death
.... blah....


Wonderful. Try reading my posts.

However, I will repeat for you, as I have several times already, that the side effects of cocaine carry little weight to the decision of legalizing it.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by itistoday

Wonderful. Try reading my posts.

WOW you are being defensive today.

I didn't post that in a reply to something you said. I just posted it .

Chill out man. Calm down.

Coke usage and abuse produces the VERY actions you are showing us in this forum.

Aggressiveness. Check
Overly Defensive. Check
Paranoia. Check
Rambling. Check

You are acting like a Coke Wanker.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

WOW you are being defensive today.

I didn't post that in a reply to something you said. I just posted it .

Chill out man. Calm down.

Coke usage and abuse produces the VERY actions you are showing us in this forum.

Aggressiveness. Check
Overly Defensive. Check
Paranoia. Check
Rambling. Check

You are acting like a Coke Wanker.

Right, I understand now. You're just posting irrelevant garbage like you always do.

[chris v]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Coke usage and abuse produces the VERY actions you are showing us in this forum.

Aggressiveness. Check
Overly Defensive. Check
Paranoia. Check
Rambling. Check

You are acting like a Coke Wanker.

That's what I'm thinking.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Making cocaine legal wont stop the problems associated with it.
Sorry. Alcohol is legal, and it's problems still exists.

Pfff, no matter what, as long as there are people, there will be people abusing it.
Poeple will get farkin addicted to any- and everything.

Alcohol, money, sex, chocolate, video games, computers etc...

Making it illegal or legal doesn't make a big difference.

-t

[sminch]

right, so, to get back to the original article, surely this is an excellent way to deal with cocaine, and perhaps poppies and pot as well.

as long as the coca-eating species to be introduced is host specific enough i don't see any trouble - coming from new zealand with its spectacular history of buggered up biocontrol (eg. introducing stoats to control the introduced rabbits, but the stoats just ate the native birds instead) and having studied ecology, i can appreciate that this isn't easy to do, but it's a damn fine way to control weeds or pests if you plan and test it well enough.

i reckon it's an interesting idea. my 2c, anyway.

sminch

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by itistoday

Right, I understand now. You're just posting irrelevant garbage like you always do.

irrelevant? You obviously don't know what that word means.

Or do, and still used it poorly.

[Miniryu]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

Zimphire: your quote is incorrect.

Everyone else: the South American country in discussion is spelled C-O-L-O-M-B-I-A.

The Colombian farmers know that they are doing wrong by selling coca. I don't know what's keeping their government from appropriating Escobar's lands and re-hiring the farmers to grow food.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[sek929]

I'm just adding my 2 cents here about the original topic mentioned.

I think its irresponsible to think that destroying the way of life (one of Columbias largest exports) for many Columbians will force them to turn to "legal" and "nice" crops.... Tobacco maybe?

The country would be just as poor (even more so now) and the violent drug lords would come up with some other way to get their drugs to us overindulgent and rich Americans.

Plus its not their fault so many High School seniors and college students love blow. Its not the supply thats the problem its the demand.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by sek929

Plus its not their fault so many High School seniors and college students love blow. Its not the supply thats the problem its the demand.

If the supply was never there, the demand would have never been.

Therefore, the supply is what caused the demand.