[CreepingDeth]

I've seen the issue in use, but I've always wondered what really causes problems with very dark themes (JetBlack for example). Can someone give me a real explanation as to why such a problem occurs?

[C o r p]

I'm not exactly sure... theme part can only change certain text colors. SS 2.0.1 fixed text coloring in iChat, but there are still apps that have problems with black themes. Themepark is extremely hard to use with a black list background, and the info text in column view (finder) isn't themed either. Not sure if it is a TP or SS issue.

[siMac]

Talking from experience, I'd say it's because applications don't stick to the 'rules'.

FireFox, for instance, uses 'Control Text' for black page text, where it should just use black text. Consequently, FireFox is unusable with dark themes.

Other applications use 'Control Text' in lists, rather than 'List Text', hence their lists are unreadable.

Let me tell you, it's a b*tch to get text colours that work across the board in a dark theme, even with compromises.

The same goes for buttons within apps. Some use the Aqua buttons with their icons overlayed, others use their own buttons - hence the need for app skins.

Here's hoping (vainly) that Tiger will A: use fewer and more consistent resources throughout the OS, and B: 'force' developers to create interfaces in a set fashion with regards to button generation etc.

:sigh:

Edit: Oh, and then there's List Backgrounds! These seem to get ignored half the time...

Just to clarify, I don't believe these are Shapeshifter issues as such, they are more related to the different ways app interfaces are programmed from developer to developer.

[C o r p]

I really wish Thempark would respect text coloring. Maybe in TP 2.0.1?

[smeger]

The basic problem is that, since OS X isn't themable by default, application programmers can be lazy and hard-code colors. For example, the "etched text" in Safari uses a private implementation within Safari. iChat uses another, different private implementation. Font Book uses a third. Etc.

Every application that renders etched text properly means that I've gone in, figured out how etched text works in that particular instance, and coded something into ShapeShifter that will make it work properly for that particular instance.

Now, think about apps that put arbitrary text onto an arbitrary background. The application programmer thinks "well, the background of a window is always white, so I'll just hardcode this text color to black." When text isn't a part of some control, ShapeShifter has no way at all of knowing what color it's supposed to be, and whether it really needs to be black, or whether it's actually being drawn onto a surface that's been themed. Every single case is a special case.

Every release of ShapeShifter has made dramatic improvements to the potential usability of dark themes, specifically the problem of dark text against a dark background. But I'm beginning to run out of things I can fix - most of the general cases were fixed as of SS 1.2.

So, long story short, this will continue to improve, but it's never gonna be perfect. It'll always be problematic, and running a dark theme will always involve trade-offs. The only way the situation will improve is if the application developers are running a theme as they develop their apps.

[smeger]

Originally posted by C o r p:
I really wish Thempark would respect text coloring. Maybe in TP 2.0.1?

I actually looked at this for 2.0.1. The reason it doesn't is because ThemePark's text colors are customizable via ThemePark's preferences. It's either-or, and I didn't want to remove the customizability from TP.

[C o r p]

wow didn't know that was there. COOL! thanks alot!

[Banghazi]

Originally posted by smeger:
Every application that renders etched text properly means that I've gone in, figured out how etched text works in that particular instance, and coded something into ShapeShifter that will make it work properly for that particular instance.

So I'm guessing you haven't been able to do this for the info text in the Finder's column view? That's the biggest reason I've stayed away from dark themes. That, and unreadable text field text in Safari.

[siMac]

Smeger, while you're answering questions, perhaps you could help me figure this one out:

Is the browser window sidebar (as in open/save rollouts) background customisable? As it stands I have the regular Finder sidebar background dark with light text, but in the rollout sidebar it honours the light text but not the background - am I missing a resource somewhere or is this not possible (yet)?

Thanks!



What hope is there that third party application developers will not be lazy when coding their interfaces when Apple themselves are one of the worst culprits of breaking the rules! In my experience, iCal seemed to have the most sensibly constructed interface of all the iApps.

[smeger]

Originally posted by Banghazi:
So I'm guessing you haven't been able to do this for the info text in the Finder's column view? That's the biggest reason I've stayed away from dark themes. That, and unreadable text field text in Safari.

I haven't tried yet. My implementation of column view background was glitchy enough (and unfixable beyond what's there) that I wasn't sure I was going to include it in 2.0 or not. But the beta team liked it, so it's there.

I'm not aware of a text field problem in Safari. Example?

Originally posted by slMac:
Smeger, while you're answering questions, perhaps you could help me figure this one out:

Is the browser window sidebar (as in open/save rollouts) background customisable? As it stands I have the regular Finder sidebar background dark with light text, but in the rollout sidebar it honours the light text but not the background - am I missing a resource somewhere or is this not possible (yet)?

IIRC, I haven't yet implemented the sidebar background color in open/save sheets because the Carbon one is problematic. It's on my to-do.

[siMac]

Originally posted by smeger:
IIRC, I haven't yet implemented the sidebar background color in open/save sheets because the Carbon one is problematic. It's on my to-do.

OK, thanks for the answer!

[Banghazi]

Originally posted by smeger:
I'm not aware of a text field problem in Safari. Example?

It could be fixed by now, as I haven't used SS since v1.2. But when using a dark theme with white or very light text, you couldn;t see anything you were typing into the Google bar or Google.com's search field. I think it may have been fixable simply by using custom font colors in Safari's preferences, but that made pages look sort of stock and windozy.

[siMac]

Hey smeger, I just stumbled upon another curiosity in the course of my theming and was wondering if you could help out.

I'm trying to theme the Font Panel, but there seems to be some weirdness involving the down states of the buttons.

Here's the Normal state:


and here's the Pressed state:


It's almost as if it's laying the Aqua Pressed graphic under my Normal graphic, but what it's definitely not doing is using the Pressed graphic I have created.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

Si

[smeger]

Originally posted by Banghazi:
It could be fixed by now, as I haven't used SS since v1.2. But when using a dark theme with white or very light text, you couldn;t see anything you were typing into the Google bar or Google.com's search field. I think it may have been fixable simply by using custom font colors in Safari's preferences, but that made pages look sort of stock and windozy.

Ahh, okay. It's been fixed for quite awhile, IIRC.

slMac, I don't know what's happening there. I have a vague recollection of noticing at some point that the Font and Color panels use an overlay color to indicate highlighting (I think Cocoa toolbars do this too). Other than that, the only thing I can suggest is to verify that you've got the pressed state image set to the same dimensions as the unpressed state.

[Sage]

Originally posted by siMac:
I'm trying to theme the Font Panel, but there seems to be some weirdness involving the down states of the buttons.

That's because there is no real Pressed state for those buttons � there's simply a translucent overlay stuck on top. Same thing goes for the Help Center buttons� they don't have a real Pressed state, but just overlayed to become darker. Maddening, Apple, maddening.

[siMac]

Originally posted by Sage:
That's because there is no real Pressed state for those buttons � there's simply a translucent overlay stuck on top. Same thing goes for the Help Center buttons� they don't have a real Pressed state, but just overlayed to become darker. Maddening, Apple, maddening.

Maddening is the word. There is absolutely no consistency in UI construction, even between the Apple apps.


Edit: It's also frustrating because ThemePreview doesn't seem to be able to show the Font Panel buttons. Is this normal?