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Spliffdaddy · Aug 13, 2004, 09:03 AM

you got schooled.

djohnson · Aug 13, 2004, 09:05 AM

Wow, I go to sleep and ya'll go off on some irrelevant tangent. masterbation != abortion!!!!!

Why not just say menstration equals abortion too?

phoenixboy70 · Aug 13, 2004, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by djohnson:
Wow, I go to sleep and ya'll go off on some irrelevant tangent. masterbation != abortion!!!!! Why not just say menstration equals abortion too?

oh, but saying that removing a 46 chromosome micro organism from a FEMALE body is murder is sooo much more "valid". obviously you don't get the point.

AGAIN! CONSERVATIVES DON'T GET TO DECIDE (FOR EVERYBODY ELSE) WHERE (HUMAN) LIFE STARTS!

djohnson · Aug 13, 2004, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
AGAIN! CONSERVATIVES DON'T GET TO DECIDE (FOR EVERYBODY ELSE) WHERE (HUMAN) LIFE STARTS!

Neither do the pro-choice people!

phoenixboy70 · Aug 13, 2004, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
you got schooled.

*duh* hardly!

but you obviously, as usual, didn't get it.

the only stupid conservative argument is that they think they've got the monopoly on who decides where (human) life starts.

phoenixboy70 · Aug 13, 2004, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by djohnson:
Neither do the pro-choice people!

no, each individual does that for him or herself (on a philosophical level). i already pointed that out.

if you want to make it a legal issue, take it up with the courts.

Zimphire · Aug 13, 2004, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
the only stupid conservative argument is that they think they've got the monopoly on who decides where (human) life starts.

And as he was pointing out, so do liberals.

djohnson · Aug 13, 2004, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And as he was pointing out, so do liberals.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother arguing with liberals. They want consertatives to have an open mind and accept their views, but they themselves are not being willing to have an open mind and accepting the concervative view...

ebuddy · Aug 13, 2004, 09:25 AM

8 more pages...8 more pages...8 more pages...

Wow. You produced a link that suggests that most women who have given birth to a child find it a worthwhile experience. Incredible.

I'm glad you mentioned that, though it shows you did not view the link. You challenged me to ask women. Well, 51% of women oppose abortion. Read the article before you knee-jerk and maybe consider the challenges you propose before you offer them up. A stronger proportion of men favor abortion than do women so it seems no matter what you do, you cannot escape the incredible male oppressor!!!

You are also taking me to task for a point I wasn't even arguing. Go find someone else who wants to debate how many women think abortion should be made illegal.

debate is like chess constrictor. Before you offer up challenges, be prepared to address them otherwise you risk credibility and appear bitter and knee-jerk. If "asking women" was not in your argument, why on earth would you tell me to ask women when most of them oppose your view? That's just silly.

I was debating the "right" to force a woman to give birth...not by law, but by the wishes of the father of the child.

Conversely, it was a plee for you to stop opening your legs for strangers who want nothing to do with you or your offspring long-term. It's killing people. No one is forcing you into anything...including irresponsible sex.

As an aside, yes, I have talked to hundreds of women about their experience with abortion, as well as talking to thousands of women about their thoughts on having given birth. Have you?

I have though not in the hundreds or thousands. The good news is I don't need to. I can present statistics on the reasons for having abortions and the numbers of repeat abortions. I can also present stories of abortion clinic workers so horrified by the conditions of the clinics that they made it their life's work exposing the scam for what it is. I can present details regarding post-abortion counseling necessary for women to overcome the decision they made prior to knowing what long-term affects it would have on their conscience. You maintain it's not taking a life. I maintain it is. That is the center of the debate. Your argument encompasses not a women's right to abort, rather a woman's choice to have irresponsible sex. That's what causes the unwanted pregnancy. It's not about men or women as it has been established that more men support your view than women. More women would seek to "force" you into giving birth than men. Leave men out of it if you please.

In knowing you've spoken to thousands of women (no doubt you're working for PP) you're familiar with the ABC Link to breast cancer? You're probably very familiar then with the treatment of women in abortion clinics and the incredible unsterile environments they can provide? You're familiar with the number of women who have died under the knife of the abortion "doctor". You're familiar with botched reproductive organs and procedures undertaken on women that were not even pregnant. You're familiar with the strain sexual behavior has on our youth. The spread of STD's both inconvenient and fatal. Instead of fighting me, you should fight the folks that truly present your side as ugly. I've noticed you've increasingly had a difficult time defending your view. There are many you can talk to that would help you understand what a travesty PP is and how they are basically milling for money. It's never too late.

phoenixboy70 · Aug 13, 2004, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by djohnson:
They want consertatives to have an open mind and accept their views...

well, if you're talking about me, i can honestly say that i don't care whether you accept my views or not. i'm opinionated enough to stand behind what i believe and know what i'm talking about.

but when it comes to actions and policies it's a different story. this issue is particularlarily sticky and hard to decide, because there really isn't a set definition on where life starts, so in the end it's an individual choice. and since it's the woman's body, - she gets to decide what happens with it, nobody else.

hey, anti-choice people, if you hate the idea of abortions so much, why don't you just abstain from having sex. that way, you personally will never again be involved in the decision making process, and you'll be doing your fellow man a great service.

Zimphire · Aug 13, 2004, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
hey, anti-choice people,

Pro-Life. Get it right. Or I'll start calling you "pro-killing-babies" (Which is more honest than "Pro-Choice" )

if you hate the idea of abortions so much, why don't you just abstain from having sex. that way, you personally will never again be involved in the decision making process, and you'll be doing your fellow man a great service.

Us pro-lifers have wives and daughters and nieces that it effects. Your life is not a vacuum where only what you do effects you.

Spliffdaddy · Aug 13, 2004, 09:34 AM

I'll just abstain from relationships involving women who have undergone abortions - or would consider doing it.

Zimphire · Aug 13, 2004, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I'll just abstain from relationships involving women who have undergone abortions - or would consider doing it.

Same here. I already learned my lesson once from that. Wont happen again.

djohnson · Aug 13, 2004, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
hey, anti-choice people, if you hate the idea of abortions so much, why don't you just abstain from having sex. that way, you personally will never again be involved in the decision making process, and you'll be doing your fellow man a great service.

hey anti-life person, isn't it time for school?

I could not have imagined marrying my wife if she had even thought about getting an abortion!!! People like that should not be allowed to have children... oh wait, they just kill them when they do get pregnant!

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 13, 2004, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:

you're in no fu<kin's poition to dictate to others when or where a human life begins.

At least I'm not the one dictating when it ends.

ebuddy · Aug 13, 2004, 09:55 AM

People like that should not be allowed to have children... oh wait, they just kill them when they do get pregnant!

Of course you understand the validity of the above even though you were being tongue-in-cheek. The truth is this is population control, genecide, and a perfect way to cut down the incredible cost poor people have on society. Don't believe me? Read up on Sanger and who comprised the lion-share of her funding as the founder of PP. Why not kill 'em all?! Sold easily to the men and women who find choice important when it's too late.

Spliffdaddy · Aug 13, 2004, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
At least I'm not the one dictating when it ends.

*SMACKDOWN*

(omg, a real one)

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 13, 2004, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I'll just abstain from relationships involving women who have undergone abortions - or would consider doing it.

Women who have done that should have a big scarlet "A" tatooed on their abodomen. That way we know which ones to avoid since they like killing their children. Problem solved.

ebuddy · Aug 13, 2004, 09:58 AM

Hey! Like the star-bellied sneeches!

Spliffdaddy · Aug 13, 2004, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Women who have done that should have a big scarlet "A" tatooed on their abodomen. That way we know which ones to avoid since they like killing their children. Problem solved.

abdomen, hell.

forehead, i say - so I don't mistakenly buy her a drink.

andi*pandi · 10:10 AM

edit: you boys having fun up there? Are you being ironic on purpose? Because you know, the scarlet letter worked out so well. Because, you know, she HAD her baby and the town ostracized her. Because, her man was too COWARDLY to stand up for her, too scared of losing his position.

And let's stamp a big ol' B for bastard on the forehead of every man who thought it was ok to lie to a woman to get her in bed, from the one-night stands to the ones who go so far as hand out rings, then take them back when oops, the condom slipped, but I love you honey let's keep it, and there's a baby and phblt, then he was gone. Right on the forehead I tells ya.

Or we could go back a few posts to my fertility bank idea--everyone is sterile until they pass a test and fork over big bucks to get their fertility out of hock.

ebuddy, don't be throwing around that tired breast cancer link. It was debunked. Thoroughly. ::tsk tsk::

I am all for pushing the abstinance message too, but the inferance that all women who would even consider abortion are sluts who can't keep their legs closed--old. Very old. Might as well say that all men are sluts who can't keep it in their pants--or who think that condoms cramp their style.

Any of you guys who had a partner sneak off and get an abortion, well I do feel sorry for you. It was a crummy thing for them to do, if indeed you both said you wanted a baby and were ready for it. I mean, they lied to you--to me, that's the true crime. But hey, it could have been worse, they could have killed you in your sleep and dumped you in the bay. [WARNING: IRONY]

What is interesting, and let's take this back a notch, to some unexplored territory... is who knows when a woman is pregnant? Who is the first to know? How does anybody else find out? Some women regularly miss 2-3 periods. Some women are heavy and wouldn't show for a long time. Perhaps the mysteries of conception are best left to those who hold the keys, and yes the ultimate responsibility.

Spliffdaddy · Aug 13, 2004, 10:06 AM

I'm willing to call those men 'sluts' - just like the women who choose abortion.

I'm not alone in my thinking.

edited: having sex is not a requirement for living. If it was I'd be long ago dead.

phoenixboy70 · Aug 13, 2004, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
At least I'm not the one dictating when it ends.

how could you, you don't even know when it begins.

ebuddy · Aug 13, 2004, 10:28 AM

Not only has the Breast Cancer Link not been debunked, but has been given new life in the UK. Abortion is the most preventable risk factor for breast cancer. Keep on assuming though, whatever makes you feel better.

The argument that a significant majority of cases of abortion are constituted by women who simply "didn't want the pregnancy" is a compelling one suggesting that men and women are engaging in sex without consideration for consequence. You may call them sluts. I call them irresponsible.

phoenixboy70 · Aug 13, 2004, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Women who have done that should have a big scarlet "A" tatooed on their abodomen. That way we know which ones to avoid since they like killing their children. Problem solved.

maybe we should tatoo swastikas on your foreheads, so that way women know which men to avoid.

andi*pandi · Aug 13, 2004, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Not only has the Breast Cancer Link not been debunked, but has been given new life in the UK. Abortion is the most preventable risk factor for breast cancer. Keep on assuming though, whatever makes you feel better.

Sigh. As I said in the other 11 page thread, it's not that having an abortion causes breast cancer, it's that having babies (AND NURSING THEM) prevents breast cancer. You gotta use the organ to keep it in fine working condition. (resisting... urge... to joke... about way you could avoid... brain cancer.... I GIVE UP!)

But if it makes you happy, post another link and I'll read it and judge it like I did the other.

Spliffdaddy · Aug 13, 2004, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
maybe we should tatoo swastikas on your foreheads, so that way women know which men to avoid.

I'm a nice, intelligent, reasonable guy - so women naturally avoid me.

Shaddim · Aug 13, 2004, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
maybe we should tatoo swastikas on your foreheads, so that way women know which men to avoid.

Of course, because you KNOW they only want to be with the liberal jerks who'll knock them up... You know, the guys who support abortion as a way of getting rid of their problems too.

Typical liberal guy (if he decided to be honest with himself): "Hell yeah I support abortion, otherwise I'd have 20 kids running around".

It's far easier to kill 1.5M unborn children /year (in the US alone) than it is to be sexually responsible. What was that you said? "Not all of those are performed as a form of birth control"? No, only 95% of them.

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 13, 2004, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
how could you, you don't even know when it begins.

Oh, I'm know when it begins. I'm also sure you certainly know when it ends.

phoenixboy70 · Aug 13, 2004, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Of course, because you KNOW they only want to be with the liberal jerks who'll knock them up...

you're full of sh1t, mr. i have two hos in the bedroom...are you planning on having kids with both of them? oh, i forgot, you're teh responsible.

Originally posted by MacNStein:
Typical liberal guy (if he decided to be honest with himself): "Hell yeah I support abortion, otherwise I'd have 20 kids running around".

you don't know me, so just STFU! no girl or woman i have ever slept with had an abortion, let alone got pregnant. and if it did happen and they decided to have an abortion, i sure as hell wouldn't call anybody i care for a "murderer". only spineless cowards and total pieces of sh1t do that kind of stuff.

Originally posted by MacNStein:
"Not all of those are performed as a form of birth control"? No, only 95% of them.

bullsh1t. i don't know about the us (and frankly, i don't even give a fcuk anymore). but here it's very seldom that people "use" abortion as a means of birthcontrol.

nobody takes these things lightly! no matter how much people like you want to lie about it.

phoenixboy70 · Aug 13, 2004, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Oh, I'm know when it begins.

no, you don't. nobody does. that's at the heart of this discussion, which quite obviously escapes your mental capacity.

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 13, 2004, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
only spineless cowards and total pieces of sh1t do that kind of stuff.

Only spineless cowards and total pieces of feces would have sex and then allow an abortion to take place without trying to save that child's life.

It's nice to see where your priorities lie. Sex without responsibility. Now we know why you support abortion.

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 13, 2004, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
no, you don't. nobody does. that's at the heart of this discussion, which quite obviously escapes your mental capacity.

You realize, of course, that one's intelligence isn't measured by how many thumbs up one keep giving himself.

New human life begins at conception. There simply isn't any other way for a new set of chromosomes to be formed that will lead to an adult human being one day.

Face it, it's more than clear now. You support death, I support life. You make every excuse under the sun to make sure it's legal to kill unborn children.

phoenixboy70 · Aug 13, 2004, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
It's nice to see where your priorities lie. Sex without responsibility. Now we know why you support abortion.

you know what's funny, i'm not the one who got a girl knocked up.

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 13, 2004, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
you know what's funny, i'm not the one who got a girl knocked up.

Knocked up. Hos. It's so refreshing to see how the left wingers approach the subject of women.

Odds are that our of the both of us I wouldn't be the one telling my "ho" to go have an abortion since it might cramp our ability to f*ck like rabbits every night.

phoenixboy70 · Aug 13, 2004, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
New human life begins at conception. There simply isn't any other way for a new set of chromosomes to be formed that will lead to an adult human being one day.

new human life begins with the production of a sperm and a ova. there is no way a human being can be formed without these two ingredients...

/nuff said

/i'm done with this discussion

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 13, 2004, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
new human life begins with the production of a sperm and a ova. there is no way a human being can be formed without these two ingredients...

/nuff said

/i'm done with this discussion

Sperm and eggs do not form new humans on their own.

andi*pandi · Aug 13, 2004, 11:37 AM

It does point to a certain hypocrisy if all you guys aren't either married or celibate.

Who's celibate? Maybe I should start a new poll.

And if you persist in labelling left-wingers as sex-crazy babykillers, then I'm gonna hafta drag out that old "right-wingers only care about the baby until it's out of the womb, then they don't wanna pony up the $$ for healthcare, daycare, schools, clothes..." card. Plus, equally sex-crazy.

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 13, 2004, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by andi*pandi:
It does point to a certain hypocrisy if all you guys aren't either married or celibate.

Seems to me the problem is having sex outside of marriage. Which I have never done.

*raises hand*

Next?

djohnson · Aug 13, 2004, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
/i'm done with this discussion

Time for school already?

Just a little advise, you cannot win an arguement if you have no facts to base that arguement on.

Dakar · Aug 13, 2004, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Seems to me the problem is having sex outside of marriage.

The problem is lack of responsibility and forethought. Whether you're married or not is irrelevant.

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 13, 2004, 01:05 PM

Even with forethought there's no substitute for a mother and a father when it comes to raising children. What responsibility can be expected from two people who don't commit themselves enough to even be married?

Dakar · Aug 13, 2004, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Even with forethought there's no substitute for a mother and a father when it comes to raising children. What responsibility can be expected from two people who don't commit themselves enough to even be married?

You can raise children with two parents out of wed-lock.

I don't need a marriage to be committed. I don't need a ceremony (or a JoP) to tell my partner how I feel.

And marriage isn't a guarantee of commitment...60% of the time.

Shaddim · Aug 13, 2004, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
you're full of sh1t, mr. i have two hos in the bedroom...are you planning on having kids with both of them? oh, i forgot, you're teh responsible.

you don't know me, so just STFU! no girl or woman i have ever slept with had an abortion, let alone got pregnant. and if it did happen and they decided to have an abortion, i sure as hell wouldn't call anybody i care for a "murderer". only spineless cowards and total pieces of sh1t do that kind of stuff.

bullsh1t. i don't know about the us (and frankly, i don't even give a fcuk anymore). but here it's very seldom that people "use" abortion as a means of birthcontrol.

<ignoring insults for now>

Well, I've had a vesectomy, so yeah, I am very responsible.

And, you don't know whether any woman or girl you've slept with has had an abortion or not. You just don't know.

95% of abortions are for conveience (birth control). And yes, many people do take them lightly, until their conscience starts eating away at them for murdering their children.

<addressing insults>

If you don't stop being such a vulgarian, tossing around those nasty comments with that "potty mouth" of yours, I will be forced to report you and stop debating with you all together.

You've been warned.

Shaddim · Aug 13, 2004, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
you know what's funny, i'm not the one who got a girl knocked up.

You don't know that.

Stradlater · Aug 13, 2004, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
Oh, I'm know when it begins. I'm also sure you certainly know when it ends.

Really? When did you['m] know you were alive?

Dr.HermanG. · Aug 13, 2004, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Stradlater:
Really? When did you['m] know you were alive?

I probably become conscious of that fact about the time that I started learning my native language. After all, without a vocabulary, how is one really to even consider the abstract idea of life or death?

You think a baby one second after birth knows it's alive? Why do you suppose that the blastocyst secretes enzymes so that it can embed itself into the uterus? Isn't life mere the struggle to survive and with the end of that struggle is death?

I would say that it's quite remarkable that a mere clump of cells has the ability to know where to embed itself so that the life process can continue. I would argue that a comatose person is more dead than a blastocyst, embryo, or fetus at any stage since a comatose person cannot do a single thing to survive on their own.

andi*pandi · Aug 13, 2004, 03:08 PM

does it "know?" or does it just travel down the fallopian tube and stop at the first thing it runs into? If you roll a comatose person down a hill and they smack into a tree... hmm, that analogy just seems wrong.

anyway, despite not agreeing with your post, it was nicely written.

djohnson · Aug 13, 2004, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Dr.HermanG.:
I probably become conscious of that fact about the time that I started learning my native language. After all, without a vocabulary, how is one really to even consider the abstract idea of life or death?

You think a baby one second after birth knows it's alive? Why do you suppose that the blastocyst secretes enzymes so that it can embed itself into the uterus? Isn't life mere the struggle to survive and with the end of that struggle is death?

I would say that it's quite remarkable that a mere clump of cells has the ability to know where to embed itself so that the life process can continue. I would argue that a comatose person is more dead than a blastocyst, embryo, or fetus at any stage since a comatose person cannot do a single thing to survive on their own.

Nicely written!

Wiskedjak · Aug 13, 2004, 03:49 PM

I didn't vote in this particular poll because I don't believe it has a "yes or no" answer. Abortion should be allowed in certain circumstances; when the life of the mother is legitimately threatened by the pregnancy or birth; when the mother is underaged and the pregnancy is still early term, but only once ... if the mother gets pregnant again they must give birth. There may be other circumstances I would consider, but these are the only ones that come to mind immediately.

Basically, I'm not opposed to abortion; I'm opposed to the abuse of abortion as a form of birth control.