[Beer Penguin]

Supposedly from one of the beta testers:

http://bahamut.hyberia.com/safari_tabs.jpg

[sandsl]

Tabs are in v62 of Safari, turned on in the debug menu. v62 is on carracho and is available to some developers.

Tabs seem to work really well! Thanks for listening Apple!

[Pepi Picklefoot]

My eyes...they burn!!!!

Hyatt managed to convince Apple or whoever that his tab concept is a good one? I can't believe it.

The tabs look like sh!t too. They don't look attached to the page itself but rather to the interface making things look very, very odd.

I was hoping for some smarter tabbing method. Maybe something that would allow to group like-tabs. Movable t. But this? It reeks of unoriginality.

Hyatt is retarded. Thanks Apple.

[sandsl]

Your right Pepi Picklefoot the tabs are upside down and do take a little getting used to but once you've played with them for a while they're ok and much better than no tabs at all.

Can I just stress that Tabbed Browsing can only be turned on using the Debug menu in this version (v62), and by default is off.

[BuonRotto]

I'm no fan of tabs, but 1. calling Hyatt retarded is, well, retarded, and 2. I think it does make sense to attach them to the bookmarks bar because I think you can argue that the tabs are temporary bookmarks more than "tabs" in the same sense that they are used in the rest of the OS. IMO, it's better conceptually than the Chimera (or whatever it's callednow) use of tabs.

[Pepi Picklefoot]

At least there's a close widget. And at least it's a custom class.

It suffers the same problems as any other tabs though...truncated names and the whole kit.

For people that don't like their browsers to be full screen...this implementation is useless.

With the introduction of wide screen LCDs and iMacs and with the majority of computers having wide enough screends, you'd think they'd rather sacrifice a bit of horizontal space rather than vertical but...no.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
My eyes...they burn!!!!

Hyatt managed to convince Apple or whoever that his tab concept is a good one? I can't believe it.

The tabs look like sh!t too. They don't look attached to the page itself but rather to the interface making things look very, very odd.

I was hoping for some smarter tabbing method. Maybe something that would allow to group like-tabs. Movable t. But this? It reeks of unoriginality.

Hyatt is retarded. Thanks Apple.

Wow, you're flaming a beta version that contains something most oif you whined and moaned about?

You want them or not? jeezus

[voodoo]

Tabs are OK, but I was hoping Apple would take them to the next gen. You know, something for Steve to show off in MW Keynotes and for PeeCee users to envy us off.

[Pepi Picklefoot]

Originally posted by voodoo:
Tabs are OK, but I was hoping Apple would take them to the next gen. You know, something for Steve to show off in MW Keynotes and for PeeCee users to envy us off.

Exactly...I was hoping for more from Apple. There's no innovation anywhere in Safari at this point.

Sure it's fast, and it renders fairly correctly (for the most part) but where are the features not available anywhere else that Apple loves to implement?

The Chimera/Navigator/Camino/Whatever team might as well pack the bags up and go home...instead of creating something new, Apple is just ripping off everyone else's features. Seriously...people are saying "until Safari gets tabs, I'm sticking with Chimera". Well Safari just got tabs...what advantages does Chimera have now? Speed? Hardly...the speed difference is very negligeable between Safari and Chimera.

Ok...so Hyatt started the whole trend...can't he try to do something new or is he going to drag this idea of his to his deathbed?

[sandsl]

where are the features not available anywhere else that Apple loves to implement.

SnapBack
Advanced Bookmarks
Rendezvous Bookmarks

(Goggle search, seemless downloads and popup blocker)

I'm not saying they're not available anywhere else, just that those are what Apple regards as innovative features.

[Pepi Picklefoot]

Originally posted by sandsl:
SnapBack
Advanced Bookmarks
Rendezvous Bookmarks

(Goggle search, seemless downloads and popup blocker)

I'm not saying they're not available anywhere else, just that those are what Apple regards as innovative features.

SnapBack - hardly innovation...
Avanced Bookmarks - I don't know why the hell Apple calls this advanced bookmarking...there's nothing advanced about it.
Rendezvous Bookmarks - do you even know how it works? It doesn't work the way you think it does.

Google search...not innovation
Seemless downloads...not innovation
Popup blocker...not innovation

This has all been done before.

[Ghoser777]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
Exactly...I was hoping for more from Apple. There's no innovation anywhere in Safari at this point.

Sure it's fast, and it renders fairly correctly (for the most part) but where are the features not available anywhere else that Apple loves to implement?

I don't think that was the point of Safari. It's suppose to be fast and leen, and it seems to be pretty good at that so far. Anyway, I think being overly critical of a beta is pretty silly - part of the reasons of having a beta is for testing purposes (is this really a beta anyway? I thought it was just another build). If the implementation is really that horrible, or if someone's got a better idea, then that will get hashed out. Oh, and if you've got a better idea (which you might), I'm sure some *retard* would love to hear it.

Matt Fahrenbacher

[MacGorilla]

I'd have to see them in action in order to make a judgement.

[Pepi Picklefoot]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Oh, and if you've got a better idea (which you might), I'm sure some *retard* would love to hear it.

Probably not...some *retard* is very fond of his own ideas and probably won't drop it. There's been quite a few threads on MacNN discussing tabs and there were quite a few good ideas out there that most definitely made its way to Hyatt...he just chooses to clutch to his 'fantastic idea'.

[Pepi Picklefoot]

Anyways...hopefully when Hyatt fully implements them, there will be a 'add tab' button somewhere on the interface. Maybe on the tab bar portion of the interface.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
SnapBack - hardly innovation...
Avanced Bookmarks - I don't know why the hell Apple calls this advanced bookmarking...there's nothing advanced about it.
Rendezvous Bookmarks - do you even know how it works? It doesn't work the way you think it does.

Google search...not innovation
Seemless downloads...not innovation
Popup blocker...not innovation

This has all been done before.

-Snap back is very innovative and useful
-Advanced bookmarks are very advanced and more effecient then any other current meethod, guess that measn it's innovative.
-Redezvous bookmarks, guess you'll have to wait and see how it works.
-Google search-what otehr browser implements it in the toolbar?

So, no, not all of it has been done before. You don't like Safari, it's obvious, what's not obvious is why you chose to liter a perfectly good thread about Safari with your negativity.

[Ghoser777]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
Probably not...some *retard* is very fond of his own ideas and probably won't drop it. There's been quite a few threads on MacNN discussing tabs and there were quite a few good ideas out there that most definitely made its way to Hyatt...he just chooses to clutch to his 'fantastic idea'.

Or he's still considering his options, and as this is a beta, this is only one implementation he's trying out. I just don't see the point about being so negative towards Hyatt.

Matt Fahrenbacher

[Synotic]

Rendezvous bookmarks let you view websites on the local network... How else would they work? it's pretty spiffy imo.

[lasvegasgamer]

This is sooo pitiful, when Safari came out

Camino users: "Wahhh, I'm not switching from Chimera till Safari gets tabbed browsing"

now Safari is getting tabbed browsing

Camino: "Wahhh, Apple is stealing features, and putting off unoriginal ideas..."

OMFG! It's stupid and pointless

[Thinine]

Just so you morons know, Dave Hyatt has nothing to do with Safari's interface. He is just working on the rendering engine WebCore. So shut the hell up!

Also, ThinkSecret has a preview article about the tabs, with pics.

[Pepi Picklefoot]

Originally posted by KidRed:
-Snap back is very innovative and useful
-Advanced bookmarks are very advanced and more effecient then any other current meethod, guess that measn it's innovative.
-Redezvous bookmarks, guess you'll have to wait and see how it works.
-Google search-what otehr browser implements it in the toolbar?

So, no, not all of it has been done before. You don't like Safari, it's obvious, what's not obvious is why you chose to liter a perfectly good thread about Safari with your negativity.

-Snapback...no! Useful but not terribly amazing.
-Advanced bookmarks...can you tell me what's so advanced about them? How are they any more advanced than OmniWeb's or IE's bookmark sorting, etc.?
-Rendezvous bookmarks check for websites on the network...as opposed to the common thought that it fetches bookmarks from other Safari users on the network.
-Google search...dumb and constrictive. OmniWeb allows for many other search engines with its implementation. Nothing original here...sorry.


I do like Safari...don't tell me what I like and don't like. I like Safari because it is lean and fast. Why is being polluted with an MDI approach of window organization. And why does it have to be the same rehashed bullcrap seen in all of Hyatt's other browsers?

[Pepi Picklefoot]

Originally posted by Thinine:
Just so you morons know, Dave Hyatt has nothing to do with Safari's interface. He is just working on the rendering engine WebCore. So shut the hell up!

Also, ThinkSecret has a preview article about the tabs, with pics.

Hyatt has a huge influence on the interface direction.

[SwarmyCurve]

You people are too nitpicky. Safari is a great browser and the option to use tabs is a nice addition.

[Ghoser777]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
Hyatt has a huge influence on the interface direction.

I'm not sure who's right or wrong here... essentially the argument is:

1) Yes he does
2) No he doesn't

If I was a judge, I'd just throw my hands in the air. Does anyone have en evidence, proof, first hand experience, etc? Pepi, how do you know Hyatt has a large influence over interface design? Have you read that somewhere, had an email exchange with him, met him in person, or what?

Just wanting to find the facts from the accusations,
Matt Fahrenbacher

[Pepi Picklefoot]

Originally posted by Ghoser777:
Have you read that somewhere, had an email exchange with him, met him in person, or what?

I'm his brother.

[pliny]

I think gorickey and this woman named Mary on the safari blog,

"v62 has TABS!!! And that's not all...it also has AUTOCOMPLETE FORMS!!! Yes, yes, yes. They are only reachable through the Debug menu however as of now.

Great work Dave!

Posted by Mary Roth at February 22, 2003 10:33 AM"
(blog)

mentioned this whole tab thing first.

Of course both are ADC.

[gorickey]

Originally posted by pliny:
I think gorickey and this woman named Mary on the safari blog,

"v62 has TABS!!! And that's not all...it also has AUTOCOMPLETE FORMS!!! Yes, yes, yes. They are only reachable through the Debug menu however as of now.

Great work Dave!

Posted by Mary Roth at February 22, 2003 10:33 AM"
(blog)

mentioned this whole tab thing first.

Of course both are ADC.

I was wondering if anybody saw that.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by pliny:
I think gorickey and this woman named Mary on the safari blog,

"v62 has TABS!!! And that's not all...it also has AUTOCOMPLETE FORMS!!! Yes, yes, yes. They are only reachable through the Debug menu however as of now.

Great work Dave!

Posted by Mary Roth at February 22, 2003 10:33 AM"
(blog)

mentioned this whole tab thing first.

Of course both are ADC.

Holy shioot, I didn't see that...er, um.. wow, cool.

[pliny]

Safari has some javascript problems. Maybe they should work on making it render pages correctly instead of throwing in tabs right now?

i wil lsay that development of it seems pretty speedy. Esp. when compared to Omniweb, don't get me started on Omniweb development cycle.

[Andrew 8808]

Originally posted by pliny:
Safari has some javascript problems. Maybe they should work on making it render pages correctly instead of throwing in tabs right now?

Well, I doubt they're neglecting work on the rendering engine. I'm sure there are separate groups that work on the interface things, and the rendering engine.

[bewebste]

Originally posted by lasvegasgamer:
This is sooo pitiful, when Safari came out

Camino users: "Wahhh, I'm not switching from Chimera till Safari gets tabbed browsing"

now Safari is getting tabbed browsing

Camino: "Wahhh, Apple is stealing features, and putting off unoriginal ideas..."

OMFG! It's stupid and pointless

[curmi]

I guess we are all spoilt. We do expect more innovation from Apple, and we get annoyed when we don't see it. That's not a bad thing - Apple needs to innovate to get more people to come on board, and we all want to see Apple become more successful.

[Apple should be thinking wide screen, using more horizontal space, using quartz to minimise screen shots in tabs rather than rely solely on text etc]

Although Omni takes forever to get new releases out, Omniweb does come up with innovative features. Even their latest release had the very useful "zoom" function for zooming in on a small form input fields.

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by curmi:
I guess we are all spoilt. We do expect more innovation from Apple, and we get annoyed when we don't see it. That's not a bad thing - Apple needs to innovate to get more people to come on board, and we all want to see Apple become more successful.

[Apple should be thinking wide screen, using more horizontal space, using quartz to minimise screen shots in tabs rather than rely solely on text etc]

Although Omni takes forever to get new releases out, Omniweb does come up with innovative features. Even their latest release had the very useful "zoom" function for zooming in on a small form input fields.

Wow. Minimized pages for tabs would suck. It would take up a ton of space, and be harder to use than tabs (since many webpages look very similar). If you have enough tabs that you can't read them, chances are you aren't using them the way they were designed to be used (grouping related pages). I rather like the tab implementation in Safari. It's snappier than Chimera's (better threading, I would assume), and the brushed metal doesn't look half bad.

[natan]

haven't seen any mention this yet, but:

command-shift-left arrow for tab back
command-shift-right arrow for tab forward

unlike chimera, doing "previous tab" from the left-most will not cycle to the last, nor will it go from the last tab to the first when you do "right tab"

oops, nevermind, it's in the window menu. oh well.

[curmi]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man:
Wow. Minimized pages for tabs would suck. It would take up a ton of space, and be harder to use than tabs (since many webpages look very similar). If you have enough tabs that you can't read them, chances are you aren't using them the way they were designed to be used (grouping related pages).

That's rubbish. It shows that some people multi-task better and find that text is hard to read after opening more than a handful of tabs. It's like saying an OS should only allow you to run 5 programs at a time because you only need to run 5 programs at a time!

As for minimised windows, well this is something for Apple to discover if they want to try and innovate. Try some new things - don't just go for the Chimera like tab interface that is already proving annoyed for those who like to open a large number of tabs.

And as I said, don't "solely" rely on text. Similarly, don't "solely" rely on image. Based on what you've said on tabs, you only ever open a handful - so if they were vertical, and used small images plus text, they'd be just as accessible in your case. However, maybe they'd be more accessible for those who want more tabs?

[Anand]

Quick. Someone at Macrumors is hosting v62 with Tabs. Get it quick (if you want) as it is hosted on a homepage.mac account.

ps/ too scared!

[WJMoore]

Originally posted by curmi:
That's rubbish. It shows that some people multi-task better and find that text is hard to read after opening more than a handful of tabs. It's like saying an OS should only allow you to run 5 programs at a time because you only need to run 5 programs at a time!

As for minimised windows, well this is something for Apple to discover if they want to try and innovate. Try some new things - don't just go for the Chimera like tab interface that is already proving annoyed for those who like to open a large number of tabs.

And as I said, don't "solely" rely on text. Similarly, don't "solely" rely on image. Based on what you've said on tabs, you only ever open a handful - so if they were vertical, and used small images plus text, they'd be just as accessible in your case. However, maybe they'd be more accessible for those who want more tabs?

Interesting point you make. Something that doesn't rely solely on text or graphics that came to my mind straight away was the dock... It has both. maybe they could make a page dock. I'm thinking that would divide people even further but it would be a different idea.

Oh and while I'm replying someone earlier mentioned the Google search feature as being innovative... Well Opera had this same feature long before Safari.

Wesley

[BTP]

Tabs are great for me. If you don't like them, don't use them.

[brainchild2b]

Tabs save my life in a job where I need 12 sites open all the time. No more flipping through the dock trying to remember which site is which or a bunch of clutter trying to reach the right window.

Tabs look great. I don't understand it, if people DO not like tabs why do they bitch so much? Just don't use them damnit!

[curmi]

Originally posted by WJMoore:
Interesting point you make. Something that doesn't rely solely on text or graphics that came to my mind straight away was the dock... It has both. maybe they could make a page dock. I'm thinking that would divide people even further but it would be a different idea.

Oh and while I'm replying someone earlier mentioned the Google search feature as being innovative... Well Opera had this same feature long before Safari.

Wesley

That's exactly it. Try a few new ideas - see how they work. Don't just copy something which people have already shown problems with.

And talking of google search, Omniweb has the very cool ability to have URL shortcuts - so typing "@" say followed by text does a google search on that text. Make shortcuts for all sorts of things. That is innovative.

Boomarks that check automatically to see if they are still valid. Open new pages in the background option. Don't load pages that match certain URLs or image sizes (hide ads feature). The new zoom button for forms. At least some of that seems innovative.

[WJMoore]

mmm tabbed Safari It works well. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual tab interface was tidied up a bit. For example it isn't overly clear that the non-active tabs are indeed other pages, they kind of look disabled. I think perhaps some sort of mouseover feedback like the bookmarks in the bookmarks bar would be quite useful.

[Developer]

Originally posted by curmi:
Don't just copy something which people have already shown problems with.

Apple won't implement Tabs in their current form, since they have shown to be just too problematic.

[zachs]

Really the only things that should be added are:

- "Move tab to other window" option

- Favicon in the tab, so you can easily drag it to the favorites bar


Also, the tabs are trucenated before the entire tab bar is taken up. IMHO, they should only be shortened when all the available space has been used.

Other than that, the tabs work quite
nicely. Faster than Chimera (Camino).

[Thinine]

I would ask that if anyone knows a public download link, please post it.

[AU_student_iceBook]

----

[DaedalusDX]

The tabs look good. I haven't downloaded a beta 62 yet, but I'm happy that they've been implemented.

There are those that use them every single day and cry out for them because its become the way they do things... without them, productivity drops dramatically.

and those who don't use them everyday... they do their own thing with a whole boatload of different browser windows open or the Dock minimization or whatever...
these people don't like tabs for whatever reason, but more importantly, have a complete misunderstanding of why the people who do use tabs use tabs.

Its not _just_ about getting to an open web page with one click... and you're not _supposed_ to open just ONE browser window with 15 tabs...

Its a matter of GROUPING web pages into a smaller number of windows by tabbing them together so that i can better organize them.

For example, i've got 3 sites open in this browser, each some sort of MacNN forum stuff... in another window, i have 3 tabs pointing to a different mac news site each... in another, i have some news sites like nyt and others open... i can group windows however way i want, and instead of 9 windows open, i have 3. I group them myself so that its not just a huge stack of layered browsers windows that i have to wade through... and the best part is that i can quickly spawn off tabs into the background when i'm viewing a news site to open up multiple news stories.

Its a real time saver. It may not be for everyone, but even so, there is NO harm in putting them in as an option.


Oh, and those of you who complain that the tab bar will ruin Safari because it will add too much to the minimalist UI... would you rather your screen be overrun by a huge number of windows, or just one small tab bar?
The user interface of Safari goes way beyond the button bar and bookmarks... you have to consider the total on screen clutter... i love safari, but whenever i use it i make way too many windows, and my screen gets cluttered and not pretty to look at.

And finally, i can't understand you people bashing David Hyatt...

[MusicMan]

Yep. I found two links in page two of that thread. They're not obvious, though. Look carefully. It's like a game ... what fun! (And what a prize ... ) I found it on Carracho, too, btw.

[Developer]

Originally posted by DaedalusDX:
There is NO harm in putting them in as an option.

Sure there is:

• Tabs are ugly.
• Tabs misuse a control intended for a fixed number of panes for dynamic content.
• Tabs don't scale.
• Tabs constrain all views to one size. Web pages might be intended to be viewed at different sizes.
• Tabs don't work well with pop-ups.
• Tabs obscure the fact that multiple pages are open. Pages in inactive tabs are not seen, nor are they in the Window and Dock menu.
• Tabs are non standard user interface. No where is something like this to be seen, except in web browsers and Microsoft MDI applications.
• Tabs confuse users.

[foobars]

Originally posted by Developer:
Sure there is:

• Tabs are ugly.
• Tabs misuse a control intended for a fixed number of panes for dynamic content.
• Tabs don't scale.
• Tabs constrain all views to one size. Web pages might be intended to be viewed at different sizes.
• Tabs don't work well with pop-ups.
• Tabs obscure the fact that multiple pages are open. Pages in inactive tabs are not seen, nor are they in the Window and Dock menu.
• Tabs are non standard user interface. No where is something like this to be seen, except in web browsers and Microsoft MDI applications.
• Tabs confuse users.

... but these cease being problems when you turn tabs off.

[frawgz]

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
-Snapback...no! Useful but not terribly amazing.

What constitutes innovation for you? Solving world hunger? Snapback was innovative in that no other browser had done it before and it simplified navigation in a way that is, in your own words, "useful."

-Google search...dumb and constrictive. OmniWeb allows for many other search engines with its implementation. Nothing original here...sorry.

That's nice, but in my experience, and in the experience of most Google users, "other search engines" simply don't come close to Google's usefulness. It might not be groundbreaking, but as far as it represents top notch search capability integrated into the web browsing experience along with Snapback, it's innovative, even in the slightest.