[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

NASA has said that space experiments help improve life on earth. So far all the data does not back this up.

What have these expensive, dangerous missions really contributed to mankind to justify the extreme cost.

Should we wait 20 years until a cheaper safer option is available?

[voodoo]

Hey, cool! IMAX Shuttle movies!! Totally worth all the trouble

[Mac Zealot]

Sattelites, the ability to send anything to anywhere in the world, essentially, the pretty little flag on the moon, a bunch of failed misisons to other planets, 2 communication devices that are like dead, and a bunch of old rockets.

Oh yeah, and that one accident that ended up getting some chemical (a small percent) into every single person on earth. Oops!

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Mac Zealot:
Sattelites, the ability to send anything to anywhere in the world

There are over 3000 Satellites in orbit and only 100 shuttle missions ever.

We don't need a shuttle to get a satellite in orbit. That is the fancy, expensive way.

[malvolio]

Funny you should ask. They did a story on this very topic on CBS news.
CAT scans. MRIs. Kevlar bullet-proof vests. Smoke detectors. Zip-lock plastic bags. WD40. Vastly improved understanding of weather phenomena such as hurricanes.
Etcetera, etcetera...

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by malvolio:
Funny you should ask. They did a story on this very topic on CBS news.
CAT scans. MRIs. Kevlar bullet-proof vests. Smoke detectors. Zip-lock plastic bags. WD40. Vastly improved understanding of weather phenomena such as hurricanes.
Etcetera, etcetera...

Those things couldn't have been invented withought a shuttle mission. What is the yearly amount of spending for NASA. 500 Billion? I could have invented a Zip Lock bag for much less.

[malvolio]

Yeah, but don't forget the WD40!

[Nicko]

They have actually talked about this on the news. Discovery was carrying out 86 different experiments of every kind.

The consensus was that the general public is unaware of the kind of work that is carried out on the shuttle missions because of its diverse nature. It also probably has something to do with journalists not deeming much of the work as newsworthy; it doesn't mean that it isn't important research however. Just do a little searching around NASA's website, you will find more info than you could ever want.

As for waiting 20 years until it is "safer" well that really doesn't make sense to me. When is it safe enough? When you can guarantee 100% success? You risk your life every time you go on an airplane, and your chances of dying in a car crash are even greater still, yet we do these things.

Today apparently nasa got a 3% raise in its budget to a total of 15 billion, which is hardly a great expense for your country. They should probably be spending at least twice as much.

And remember, nasa has calculated that there was a 1 in 75 chance the shuttle could explode ever time it took off... looks like those odds were right

[starman]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
NASA has said that space experiments help improve life on earth. So far all the data does not back this up.

What have these expensive, dangerous missions really contributed to mankind to justify the extreme cost.

Should we wait 20 years until a cheaper safer option is available?

We'd never make cheaper, safer material because that's what the shuttle missions are for in the first place!

Mike

[Nicko]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Those things couldn't have been invented withought a shuttle mission. What is the yearly amount of spending for NASA. 500 Billion? I could have invented a Zip Lock bag for much less.

500 billion! HA!

It is a paltry 15 billion... I think nasa is lucky they are able to get by on that small sum. If they don't do something drastic, countries such as china are going to take over space in the next few decades. Which might not be so bad

[rampant]

You've forgotten that the nature of most missions is military, putting spy satilites into orbit, etc.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

But is the money worth what we get out of it?

The only experiments I heard about on the last shuttle mission was 20 grade school projects.

Even IF they did invent CAT scans because of Shuttle missions don't you think 15 Trillion would have invented that on earth anyway?

If you don't want to wait until it is safer how about DAMN CHEAPER. Even NASA admits the the shuttle is waaaaay overpriced.

[starman]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
But is the money worth what we get out of it?

The only experiments I heard about on the last shuttle mission was 20 grade school projects.

Even IF they did invent CAT scans because of Shuttle missions don't you think 15 Trillion would have invented that on earth anyway?

If you don't want to wait until it is safer how about DAMN CHEAPER. Even NASA admits the the shuttle is waaaaay overpriced.

Well instead of whining about it, why don't you do the research? You're obviously quite interested in it.

Mike

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by starman:
Well instead of whining about it, why don't you do the research? You're obviously quite interested in it.

Mike

Even better why don't you. All you seem to want to do is justfy EVERYTHING

[Nicko]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
But is the money worth what we get out of it?

The only experiments I heard about on the last shuttle mission was 20 grade school projects.

Ok instead of being annoying why don't you do some reading up on it so you have an idea what you are talking about eh?

Start here...

http://www.nasa.gov/missions/current/

[starman]

Originally posted by Nicko:
Ok instead of being annoying why don't you do some reading up on it so you have an idea what you are talking about eh?

Start here...

http://www.nasa.gov/missions/current/

Hehe. That sounds familiar .

Mike

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally posted by Nicko:
Ok instead of being annoying why don't you do some reading up on it so you have an idea what you are talking about eh?

Start here...

http://www.nasa.gov/missions/current/

Really so the general public has enough interest to go to the website to see where the money is going? Funny, cuz all the news was reporting before the accident was the grade school experiments. Shame they were lost.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
But is the money worth what we get out of it?

The only experiments I heard about on the last shuttle mission was 20 grade school projects.

Even IF they did invent CAT scans because of Shuttle missions don't you think 15 Trillion would have invented that on earth anyway?

If you don't want to wait until it is safer how about DAMN CHEAPER. Even NASA admits the the shuttle is waaaaay overpriced.

what do you care? its not canadian money.

[starman]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
what do you care? its not canadian money.

Oh, I actually laughed at this. Good one, Lerk .

Mike

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
Those things couldn't have been invented withought a shuttle mission. What is the yearly amount of spending for NASA. 500 Billion? I could have invented a Zip Lock bag for much less.

Could they have been invented without a shuttle mission? Perhaps. But they weren't.

The fact is, many things which are highly useful, or even taken for granted, today came out of the space program. It has been a driving force behind countless improvements in technology, the likes of which have not been seen since. That alone justifies its continued existence: perhaps not the missions themselves, but the technological drive underlying them. Take out the missions, and you lose the drive. That would be a tragedy.

[Millennium]

Oh, and the $500 billion figure? Off by at least two orders of magnitude. The military gets $500 billion, and Social Security gets just shy of twice that, but they're the only things which get anything near that much. The next highest is would be interest on the national debt, and that only gets a bit more than half the defense budget. Everything else is squeezed into the remaining 15-odd percent. Kind of sobering, when you think about it.

Of course, I find it amusing enough that the price of a single stealth bomber could run the FBI crime lab at its current level of funding for forty years...

[shanraghan]

Should we wait? Hell no. But we should consider advancements. It's disappointing that only a few decades ago we were on the moon, and now we go no where near there, nor do we approach Mars save for the occaisonal satelite. I really think that NASA ought to try a little harder to reach out into space, though we might need a bigger organization with a bigger budget to carry that out. An international cooperative program like the ISS would be most likely, although international co-ops can be rather tricky. And again, shuttle experiments could go a long ways to helping us colonize the solar system. I really do hope we start exploring it more, and hopefully more responsibly than in the past, in the coming decades. It'd be a pity if we were still earthbound by the time I'm an old man.

[Ozmodiar]

Actually, the departments of Defense and Health and Human Services along with the EPA get the majority of the budget. The rest goes to interest on the national debt, and then the "lesser" departments - Transportation, Education, NASA - get what's left.

[derien]

There are many experiments that can be conducted only in microgravity, and 30 seconds in the Vomit Comet just isn't enough.

And think about the Hubble--if we didn't have shuttles, its myopia couldn't have been fixed.

[Nimisys]

also we got the perfume ZEN, because key scents were extrcated (via plant oils) by 1998 shuttle experiment. it also provides a nice way to get people to and from the space station.

[FulcrumPilot]

[Leia's Right Bun]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
what do you care? its not canadian money.

Hmm didn't see that one coming. So since Canadian money isn't being poored into the upcoming war should I not care about that either?

Just because I am not American I cannot ask this question?

Sounds like a Starman question to me

[UNTeMac]

Before start a thread based entirely on assumptions and reports from news media, why don't you do some research? If you going to ask questions, ask informed ones. Right now you're just making a fool of yourself...500 billion....hah!

[Leia's Right Bun]

Originally posted by UNTiMac:
Before start a thread based entirely on assumptions and reports from news media, why don't you do some research? If you going to ask questions, ask informed ones. Right now you're just making a fool of yourself...500 billion....hah!

Fool? That 500 billion was a joke. Duh.

Isn't this thread about discussion or should I go to the library first

But then this is normal for typically defensive Americans.

[snotnose]

yeah the satellite business is definately the bread and butter that nasa almost has a monopoly on over the world. others can do it but nasa is most dependable

[UNTeMac]

Originally posted by Leia's Right Bun:
Fool? That 500 billion was a joke. Duh.

Isn't this thread about discussion or should I go to the library first

But then this is normal for typically defensive Americans.

Fool? Of course this thread is about discussion, but if everyone has to take the time to correct your false assumptions then what's the point?

"Typically defensive Americans." ooh...nice generalization...got any more? perhaps 'bout Canadians this time?

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Leia's Right Bun:
Isn't this thread about discussion or should I go to the library first

Learn how to use smileys properly.

You're over-using it. Gay people doesn't open up their mouth that lot... oh wait, I'm wrong

[starman]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
Learn how to use smileys properly.

You're over-using it. Gay people doesn't open up their mouth that lot... oh wait, I'm wrong

Mike

[dillerX]

Game. Set. Match.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Back to the topic: I really couldn't give a damn about the practical spinoffs. What matters to me is the exploration. I think it was Arthur C. Clarke who said that in a thousand years hence, our century (he was talking about the 20th) will be remembered for only two things. One is the Second World War, and the other is the moon landing. Guess which one I think we should be proud of.

As a civilization, we waste so much money on so many trivial things - crappy Hollywood movies, vacations to Disneyland, Dell computers. The space program is a drop in the bucket, yet it is far more meaningful in the long run.

My concern isn't that we are doing too much, it is that the space program has gotten stuck in a rut. Going around in circles a whisker above the atmosphere isn't exploration. I agree with Krauthammer in today's Washington Post that it is time once again to go beyond low earth orbit. And frankly, I'd be willing to pay a little more taxes to do it. It would be better than a lot of the trivia Congress funds.

[DBursey]

what do you care? its not canadian money.

Some of it is. The Canadian Space Agency (CSA) is a regular and active participant in shuttle missions as well as in the construction and operation of the International Space Station. The CSA allocates a significant portion of its annual half-billion dollar (CDN) budget on astronaut training and development for collaborative missions on the shuttle and the ISS. The Canadian Space Agency, its scientists, engineers and astronauts have been instrumental in the design, construction and final assembly of multiple systems for the ISS, including advanced remote manipulation robotics for both the shuttle fleet and the ISS.

Not that it matters at this point, but there happened to be two Canadian experiments being conducted on STS-107; they involve research into bone loss as well as the study of protein crystal growth. There are also many Canadian experiments being conducted on the ISS.

The Columbia disaster now means that the missions of Canadian astronauts Steve MacLean and Dave Williams will likely be on hold for quite some time. Both those astronauts were scheduled to return to space on space shuttles and perform spacewalks to help in the continuing construction of the ISS.

NASA has said that space experiments help improve life on earth. So far all the data does not back this up.

To what data do you refer? Space-based research has led to significant strides in the fields of biology and microelectronics, as well as in the study of meteorology, earth sciences and many others. Much of the scientific research being conducted in space has no earthbound equivalent, given the constraints of gravity.

Not to be too melodramatic, but I'm sure there were those who doubted the benefits of sending the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria on their perilous journeys of discovery to the new world in the 15th century. That our North American (and perhaps Western) civilization now exists is a testament to those who considered the challenges of exploration and development to be worth the associated risks. Then, as perhaps today, those brave and farsighted explorers saw no risk as being insurmountable in the pursuit of their goals.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by malvolio:
Funny you should ask. They did a story on this very topic on CBS news.
CAT scans. MRIs. Kevlar bullet-proof vests. Smoke detectors. Zip-lock plastic bags. WD40. Vastly improved understanding of weather phenomena such as hurricanes.
Etcetera, etcetera...

Should also add masive improvements to technologies to make cars and planes safer including anti-lock break improvements, and various types of sensors.

Not to mention the insight gained on diseases and conditions like ostioperosis (spelling ?) Bone mass in space decreases. It's a relatively efficient way to actually watch what the condition would do over a long period of time.... this was part of why they sent John Glenn up.

[xtal]

Originally posted by DBursey:
Not that it matters at this point, but there happened to be two Canadian experiments being conducted on STS-107; they involve research into bone loss as well as the study of protein crystal growth. There are also many Canadian experiments being conducted on the ISS.

D Bursey,

Excellent post.

The experiment regarding 'protein crystal growth' is more important than it sounds. I recently met the scientist in charge of the project (Mirek Cygler) who works in a similar field to mine. Protein crsytallization is (some might say) essential step to understanding human disease. Cutting-edge pharmaceutical research is centred on the idea of using a molecular structure of a protein, derived from a protein crystal. These crystals are quite difficult to grow, and microgravity conditions are a possible way to grow these crystals better and more quickly. But, I digress.

By the way, being a protein crystallographer myself, my username 'xtal' is actually a short form for 'crystal' in my field.

Interesting thread.

[MacGorilla]

We've gotten a lot of stuff out of the Shuttle missions, too numerous to mention but here are two:

1) It keeps us in space. In this day and age, with budget cuts and shifting priorities, keeping astronauts in space is important for national prestige. Look at the Chinese. They're rushing headlong to launch their own astron astronauts into space for this very reason.

2) The first hubble repair mission. Almost ten years ago humans did what no machine could: they captured the Hubble BY HAND and fixed it in space, giving the telescope new life by fixing its shoddy optics.

[MacGorilla]

And I will add this: tragedies, though unfortunate, help us build safer space craft. When Apollo 1 exploded NASA learned that using pure oxygen in space capsules was very dangerous and replaced it with the oxygen/helium mixed used today (one reason why austronauts sound like Mickey Mouse when they talk from space).

[Nicko]

Who needs a shuttle when you can just take the elevator?

http://www.wired.com/news/technology...,57536,00.html


$100 per kilo this could be the future.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Leia's Right Bun:
Hmm didn't see that one coming. So since Canadian money isn't being poored into the upcoming war should I not care about that either?

Just because I am not American I cannot ask this question?

Sounds like a Starman question to me

no, dorko, you missed the point. You kept saying money "we" are spending on the space program, when america is funding it.. However, you certainly BENEFIT from that research.
So, essentially, for Canadians and the rest of the world, its negligible investment for the massive benefit of technology advancement.

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by Lerkfish:
no, dorko, you missed the point. You kept saying money "we" are spending on the space program, when america is funding it.. However, you certainly BENEFIT from that research.
So, essentially, for Canadians and the rest of the world, its negligible investment for the massive benefit of technology advancement.

. Canada is one of the TOP leaders in technological advancements throughout the whole world. You benefit just as much from our discovery's as we do from yours... dont get so cocky.

Chris

[Lerkfish]

never mind.,,,carry on as normal.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
. Canada is one of the TOP leaders in technological advancements throughout the whole world. You benefit just as much from our discovery's as we do from yours... dont get so cocky.

Chris

Indeed. Canada has contributed an amazing amount of technology to the world and the space program. We would be far poorer without Canada's contributions.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
. Canada is one of the TOP leaders in technological advancements throughout the whole world. You benefit just as much from our discovery's as we do from yours... dont get so cocky.

Chris

No one is disparaging the contributions of Canada for the betterment of mankind. Lerkfish's point flew right past you.

[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Indeed. Canada has contributed an amazing amount of technology to the world and the space program. We would be far poorer without Canada's contributions.

this thread started with a canadian saying : prove that the space shuttle is worth it, what the hell has it done for us?

So I return the question: care to list the canadian contributions? Are they worth it?

the answer is: OF COURSE they are. all advancement is worth it.

The question shouldn't even be asked...

[davesimondotcom]

Don't forget the breakfast of astronauts:

TANG!

But seriously, the Hubble Telescope - and fixing it - was a huge accomplishment.

[Lerkfish]

Just to let you guys know, whenever a shuttle mission goes up and all they talk about are grade school experiments...its because the rest of the mission is military and classified.

There's the other benefit you don't see: spy satellites and whatever else they put up there (not that I'm condoning that per se, but the money is being spent on more than just velcro and tang).

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally posted by rampant:
You've forgotten that the nature of most missions is military, putting spy satilites into orbit, etc.

This is NOT true... Most spy satilites are unmaned Boeing launches...