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Ars Technica steps on EverQuest® Macintosh Edition!
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DekuDekuplex
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Mar 3, 2006, 12:50 AM
 
This thread describes what happened three days ago over at Ars OpenForum 3.0b when I tried to post a personal review of EverQuest® Macintosh Edition.

-- DekuDekuplex
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turtle777
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Mar 3, 2006, 04:38 PM
 
Your review was great, but unfortunately, looked too professional. Of course they thought you were being paid to post this.

The problem is that you just registered, and then posted this. If you were a longtime member, they would have not treated you like this. But I agree, to delete your post and replace it is bad. I wouldn't stay in a place like that.

-t

Edit: Ok, I just looked at the register date from the EQMac forum. I don't when you registered at ArTechnica. So nevermind.
     
Chuckit
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Mar 3, 2006, 04:43 PM
 
I thought it was spam when I saw it here too.
Chuck
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turtle777
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Mar 3, 2006, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
I thought it was spam when I saw it here too.
Yeah, but he's been around for a while, so I guess, I don't know

-t
     
DekuDekuplex  (op)
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Mar 4, 2006, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by what_the_heck
Your review was great, but unfortunately, looked too professional. Of course they thought you were being paid to post this.

The problem is that you just registered, and then posted this. If you were a longtime member, they would have not treated you like this. But I agree, to delete your post and replace it is bad. I wouldn't stay in a place like that.

-t

Edit: Ok, I just looked at the register date from the EQMac forum. I don't when you registered at ArTechnica. So nevermind.
Actually, if you check the censored, overwritten post at Ars OpenForum 3.0b (be sure to note the significant comment at the bottom: "This message has been edited. Last edited by: GwT, February 27, 2006 18:41," indicating that the current content is not mine, but GwT's), you can see that I had in fact been a "longtime member" there, who had originally registered on January 28, 2005. (They overwrote the content of my post, but not my registration date on its left bar.) That's over a year ago.

They probably didn't even look at my registration date. If they did, the definitely didn't take it into account. They just decided that it looked "too professional," looked at my post count, ignored my registration date, assumed (without verifying) that it had to be spam, overwrote my post, and closed the thread before giving me a chance to respond. I actually tried to post a response about twenty minutes later, but couldn't even post it because the thread had already been locked and my post overwritten.

I immediately complained (in private messages to the moderator who overwrote my post, GwT) so vociferously and repeatedly that he finally realized that I couldn't possibly be working for Sony® after all, but then he had the administrators ban my account for "spamming" him with my complaints.

Their title "Ars OpenForum" seems to be an Orwellian misnomer. "Ars ClosedForum" seems more accurate.

-- DekuDekuplex
( Last edited by DekuDekuplex; Mar 4, 2006 at 12:44 PM. Reason: additional information)
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strictlyplaid
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Mar 4, 2006, 01:06 PM
 
Sorry about what happened to ya, but I too am suspicious of forum posts these days--especially about games and computer stuff. It's hard to tell what's marketing pap and what isn't, given that apparently some of the better spam houses get their employees to participate in non-spam discussions on the board and maintain membership there for a while in order to gain the forum's trust.

Who knows, maybe I'm a spammer!
     
tooki
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Mar 4, 2006, 03:47 PM
 
Sorry, but if I'd seen that post, I would have deemed it to be spam, too.

Only PR departments put ® or ™ after trademarks. That alone screams shill. Your whole writing style sounds like PR, making sure to cross every t and dot every i in the wording of every product name, and oozing praise throughout.

Are you sure you're not a PR major?

tooki
     
frylock
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Mar 4, 2006, 04:12 PM
 
If you're a frequent reader of the GESC at Ars, you probably would have seen another thread that may contribute to their scepticism that was posted less than a month ago.

http://episteme.arstechnica.com/grou...7006467731/p/1

^^
(letter to penny arcade about a job offer to be a long-term messageboard shill)
     
Chuckit
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Mar 4, 2006, 04:26 PM
 
What tooki said.
Chuck
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strictlyplaid
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Mar 4, 2006, 05:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
Only PR departments put ® or ™ after trademarks.
Originally Posted by rickey939
Proud of you.®
I always knew that guy was a spammer.
     
DekuDekuplex  (op)
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Mar 4, 2006, 05:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
Sorry, but if I'd seen that post, I would have deemed it to be spam, too.

Only PR departments put ® or ™ after trademarks. That alone screams shill. Your whole writing style sounds like PR, making sure to cross every t and dot every i in the wording of every product name, and oozing praise throughout.

Are you sure you're not a PR major?

tooki
The typographical marks are a carry-over from my writing style for drafts that I submit for published articles on Macs and gaming, where those marks are required. I use them because I find it difficult to context-switch between using those marks for published material, and not using them for non-published material, and because it is significantly easier to use them all the time than only to use them when absolutely required.

Actually, the article did not contain "oozing praise throughout," because I did note the following:

Originally Posted by DekuDekuplex in Ars Technica steps on EverQuest® Macintosh Edition! at EQMac.com Forums
By this point, I was starting to feel confused and exhausted, and didn't feel sure about whether I wanted to continue playing....
I just happened to feel genuinely enthusiastic about a title that had occupied my attention for the past few weeks. Had I played longer, I might have come up with more negative experiences to add, but I hadn't had many by that point. Must I state something negative about everything?

To set the record straight, I do honestly mention negative aspects about titles when I notice them. For example, in another post, about Vendetta™ Online (a real-time space MMORPG/MMOFPS), I wrote the following:

Originally Posted by DekuDekuplex
I used to play Vendetta™ Online, a real-time space action MMORPG, and eventually stopped playing mainly because the other players were too mean, nasty, and rude. To give an example, there were pirates on that game who went out of their way to be nasty, both in-game and on the forums--they would camp out at wormholes on trading routes, sneak up suddenly on trading ships, and make statements to other players similar to "I R teh phear! U R teh sux! I pwned U! n00b! LOL ROFLMAO!!!!!11!!1!" When I replied that the problem was that it doesn't make sense to call somebody a "newbie" just because that player wasn't interested in PvP, they replied that other players who weren't good at PvP deserved to be called "n00b's." For some reason, the official forum moderators tolerated their attitude, and the developers even encouraged it by slowing down the trading ships and making it more difficult for traders to avoid PvP. In short, PvP there was non-consensual, and practically enforced. Because I didn't like non-consensual PvP, I eventually quit.
In that post, I still used typographical marks out of regular practice, but I mentioned something quite negative because that had been my genuine experience over an approximately eight-month long playing period. In the case of the other title, it had been a mere seventeen days.

Actually, to be honest about EverQuest® Macintosh Edition, I do now have one negative experience to report, which occurred after I had posted the original review: A few days ago, I was scribing spells at the Great Library when the following incident happened on the "alliance" channel:

Originally Posted by alliance channel on EverQuest® Macintosh Edition
<other-player> tells alliance:1, 'where's my corpse?'
Dekudekuplex tells alliance:1, 'Where you last left it.'
<other-player> tells alliance, 'stuff it, Deku'
However, there's a big difference between that response, and the following one on the Vendetta™ Message Board:

Originally Posted by Dr. Lecter
STFU and do this oh so simple task, you trade oriented critter:
[detailed alternative procedure for overcoming bug in existing trading system deleted]

/me whacks Dekuwhatevertheheckhisnameis with the Smart-Stick(tm)
In addition, someone else on the Vendetta™ Message Board also posted the following one in another thread:

Originally Posted by genka
Wow deku, thank you for that extensive and entirely useless post. We all appreciate your input. You can go ahead and get the hell out of here now, never to return, hopefully.
As I continue to play EverQuest® Macintosh Edition, I shall no doubt encounter additional negative experiences, which I shall then report in future reviews of that title. However, I have only been playing for three weeks so far, and have only honestly encountered one, which occurred after the post in question. My point is that I write my geniune impressions, both positive and negative, and not just the positive ones, but that I haven't yet played EQ Mac long enough to encounter many. But writing genuine experiences is not the same as PR.

-- DekuDekuplex
( Last edited by DekuDekuplex; Mar 4, 2006 at 05:46 PM. )
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Chuckit
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Mar 4, 2006, 05:41 PM
 
Is your published material advertising? Because trademark symbols aren't commonly used in either newspapers or magazines. As tooki said, your post really sounded like advertising.
Chuck
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DekuDekuplex  (op)
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Mar 4, 2006, 06:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
Is your published material advertising? Because trademark symbols aren't commonly used in either newspapers or magazines. As tooki said, your post really sounded like advertising.
What are the legal requirements for trademark symbol usage?

For example, according to the Preface of the online "Sun Trademark and Logo Usage Requirements" document,

These Sun Trademark and Logo Usage Requirements ("Usage Requirements") set forth Sun's rules for using or referring to Sun's brands, trademarks, product and service names, logos and slogans. They apply to all Sun organizations worldwide and to Sun resellers, developers, customers, advertising agencies, consultants, professional writers and editors [emphasis is the author's], licensees and other third parties making reference to Sun trademarks [again, emphasis is the author's]. Sun reserves the right to modify these Usage Requirements as it deems necessary or appropriate, including by written agreement or license with third parties.
Since they do not limit the "references" to advertising material, as a (semi-)professional writer, I am technically required, at least by Sun Microsystems, to follow their trademark usage guidelines, presumably in all of my writing everywhere that makes reference to their trademarks, which are attached to their products and services.

Further, in Section "D. Proper Trademark Attribution: Symbols and Legends," they add the following concerning usage of trademark symbols:

Trademark ownership is attributed in two ways, with the use of a trademark symbol (, , or ®) after the trademark, and with a trademark legend, usually found at the end of a document in legible text following the copyright notice. Remember, mere inclusion of a trademark symbol and legend does not entitle you to use a Sun trademark! For information on how to properly use a Sun trademark in association with a non-Sun product or service, please see Section II of these Usage Requirements.

1. Trademark Symbols:

Assuming you are permitted to use a Sun trademark, please make sure to attribute the mark with the proper symbol. Always use the ® symbol with the Sun logo. For all other Sun trademarks, do not use the ® symbol, but instead use the symbol for products, or the symbol for services. The symbol should be placed immediately after the trademark, either in superscript or in parenthetical form, such as , TM, , , tm, , , SM, , , sm, , etc. Trademark symbols should be used on Sun trademarks as follows:

a. On products, product labels, and packaging, use an appropriate symbol in each prominent use of the trademark.

b. In every other context [emphasis is the author's], use an appropriate symbol in both the first prominent use of the trademark (in headlines, banners, etc.) and in the first use in the text of body copy.

c. Always use the appropriate symbol incorporated into any of Sun's logos.
Presumably, "every other context" includes non-advertising material. Nowhere do their guidelines limit the usage to advertising material.

Sun's guidelines limit the usage of the '®' symbol with their company name to cases where it is used with their company logo, so I do not need to use it in this post, because I do not use their logo here.

So technically, at least according to Sun Microsystems' trademark and logo usage requirements, I am required, as a (semi-)professional writer, to use such advertising symbols as '®' or '™' or 'SM' in my writing, advertising or non-advertising, whenever I refer to their products or services (at least when I do so for the first time in a given context). I assume that the guidelines for other companies are similar.

-- DekuDekuplex
( Last edited by DekuDekuplex; Mar 4, 2006 at 07:07 PM. )
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Chuckit
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Mar 4, 2006, 07:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by DekuDekuplex
What are the legal requirements for trademark symbol usage?
At least in the United States, there are none that I'm aware of.

And companies don't have any legal right to make you refer to their products any certain way — that's the First Amendment. Take a look through a copy of the New York Times and see how many times they write "Adobe� Photoshop�" or "Sony�". Although Sun's guidelines are useful and correct if you want to use the symbol, they don't actually constitute a law requiring the symbol's use. They would only be binding if you'd made an agreement with Sun to be bound by them. All companies encourage people to use and ™ because this is useful to them, but it isn't required and isn't normal outside of advertising.
Chuck
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DekuDekuplex  (op)
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Mar 4, 2006, 07:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit
At least in the United States, there are none that I'm aware of.

And companies don't have any legal right to make you refer to their products any certain way — that's the First Amendment. Take a look through a copy of the New York Times and see how many times they write "Adobe� Photoshop�" or "Sony�". Although Sun's guidelines are useful and correct if you want to use the symbol, they don't actually constitute a law requiring the symbol's use. They would only be binding if you'd made an agreement with Sun to be bound by them. All companies encourage people to use and ™ because this is useful to them, but it isn't required and isn't normal outside of advertising.
Interesting. I was simply trying to follow posted guidelines. In any event, unless I see something official in writing to the contrary, I just think that it is safer to follow posted guidelines on such topics as trademark, logo, and license usage. I just happen to be of the pedantic variety, and am also the type who carefully reads license agreements before installing software.

I once worked for a computer training school in Manhattan that ignored software license agreements and secretly installed multiple copies of software for a mock exam on computers meant for student use. Eventually, the software manufacturer discovered the breach, and charged the company about $10,000 in fines. That company later went out of business. Luckily, I was no longer working for them at that time.

In addition, one student whom I knew in college was almost expelled, and later put on probation, for failing to cite references in a single paper assignment. Afterwards, he never failed to cite another reference, even if he knew that points would be subtracted for relying on outside sources for part of his work. Although he did not earn a high G.P.A., he did eventually successfully graduate from that school (which happened to be a very prestigious university).

Most recently, on January 18, Japanese legal prosecutors raided the offices of Takafumi Horie, then a famous Japanese entrepreneur and CEO of livedoor® (the initial letter of the official name is uncapitalized), on suspicions of stating losses as profits and money laundering. According to some colleagues of mine, he was just doing what his competitors were doing. On January 23, he was arrested and put in a detention cell. The next day, he resigned as CEO of his company. Until January 18, his company's stock was worth about 320 yen (approximately USD$2.76) per share; the last time I heard, it was worth about 60 yen (approximately USD$0.52) per share. That's a decrease of approximately 81.25%.

Had any of these entities been more pedantic in following written guidelines, that one could have stayed out of trouble.

My policy is as follows: "When in doubt, better safe than sorry." One is usually less likely to get into legal trouble by being overly pedantic than by just following common practice (i.e., doing what everybody else seems to be doing).

-- DekuDekuplex
( Last edited by DekuDekuplex; Mar 4, 2006 at 08:20 PM. )
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Chuckit
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Mar 4, 2006, 08:15 PM
 
OK. Just be aware that it will make people treat what you write as advertising.
Chuck
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tooki
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Mar 4, 2006, 09:11 PM
 
DekuDekuplex, that long tirade of contract breach is irrelevant. Did you sign a contract with Sun? Nope. You can write about a company however you darned well feel like. Seriously, the only folks who put trademark symbols religiously are the PR folks who write press releases.

Those symbols, plus the super-meticulous way you refer to things (even in the posts in this thread!!!), are the signs of a PR person. No "civilian" would ever do that.

I hate to be blunt, but you're gonna have to write like a "normal" person if you don't want your posts mistaken for poorly-guised advertisements.

tooki
     
tooki
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Mar 4, 2006, 09:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by DekuDekuplex
What are the legal requirements for trademark symbol usage?
None, as an outsider. As the trademark holder, you are well advised to make it known that it is trademarked, though.

tooki
     
Gene Jockey
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Mar 4, 2006, 09:47 PM
 
For crying out loud, why didn't you just submit it to Ars as an article? It would have been much more appropriate than just randomly posting a review like yours.
     
funkboy
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Mar 5, 2006, 04:30 AM
 
This writing is really weird. It really does sound like PR, and I can see how someone would mistake it for that. It looks too... well-formatted, deliberate, and plays to the strengths of the brand to be a 'normal' review.
One note: why the links to pages on each individual race? This seems like overkill and too much linking (to the official everquest site, even) to the official company website.
     
baw
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Mar 5, 2006, 04:33 AM
 
You are spending way too much time reviewing a dying game.
     
funkboy
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Mar 5, 2006, 04:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by baw
You are spending way too much time reviewing a dying game.
I don't think that's a bad thing - an exercise to develop your chops, whether it's writing or playing guitar or whatever. I just don't quite agree with some very big points of the style of this writing... but I am all for getting people to have a distinct style and voice.
     
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Mar 5, 2006, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by DekuDekuplex
My policy is as follows: "When in doubt, better safe than sorry."
Heh. That's probably exactly what the Ars mods were thinking when they saw your post. Anyway...

Originally Posted by tooki
Those symbols, plus the super-meticulous way you refer to things (even in the posts in this thread!!!), are the signs of a PR person. No "civilian" would ever do that.

I hate to be blunt, but you're gonna have to write like a "normal" person if you don't want your posts mistaken for poorly-guised advertisements.
Though I disagree with the reasoning, the conclusion is dead-on. DekuDekuplex:

Far be it for me to diagnose someone with mild autism over the intarweb, but it seems to me that you have a personal gift for technical accuracy, but a comparative deficit when it comes to assessing interpersonal trends and social norms. Nothing wrong with that, everyone's an individual, but it may be something you'd like to investigate so it doesn't take you by surprise so.

As for your posts, the key to good communication is brevity. Use any word or all words too often, and it all fades into the background noise. That's why your posts sound like advertising, because advertising is classic background noise. Flowery language, excessive punctuation, ubb code, it's all extraneous. Think of it the same way as profanity. Use it sparingly and it can have a big effect, but use it too often and you are instantly tuned out.

Just don't take "writing like a normal person" too far. If you ever use "R U" instead of "are you" I'm not going to read the rest of your post
     
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Mar 5, 2006, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton
Use it sparingly and it can have a big effect, but use it too often and you are instantly tuned out.
**** that.
Chuck
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Mar 5, 2006, 03:36 PM
 
I disagree with Ars' reaction, and I disagree with what most of you are saying here.

Ars obviously did not do any backchecking about the poster – they just edited it and closed his thread. That smacks of unprofessionalism and childishness.

You people here saying he has to "dumb down" his writing to get people to believe he's not spamming amaze me. So what if he's a meticulous and professional-sounding writer?? That's no reason to automatically close his thread.

*shrug*

greg
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baw
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Mar 5, 2006, 04:10 PM
 
If the OP removed all the ™®© from his review and the links to Sony's website, his review would look more like a review and not a press release.
     
Chuckit
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Mar 5, 2006, 04:11 PM
 
Did you miss the part where several of us explained that it was not the intelligence of his post, but the style in which it was written (e.g., excessive use of trademark symbols and repeated linking to a Web site) that made it seem like advertising?

As I said, it looked like spam to me too, and I skipped that post when he made the same here for that reason.
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tooki
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Mar 5, 2006, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
So what if he's a meticulous and professional-sounding writer??
It's that meticulousness with respect to trademark symbols. That writing does not sound professional, it sounds commercial. THAT is the problem. And with companies now paying people to post on forums to promote their products, forum operators have been forced to be extremely suspicious of things that could be thinly-veiled spam.

tooki
     
baw
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Mar 5, 2006, 10:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
It's that meticulousness with respect to trademark symbols. That writing does not sound professional, it sounds commercial. THAT is the problem. And with companies now paying people to post on forums to promote their products, forum operators have been forced to be extremely suspicious of things that could be thinly-veiled spam.

tooki
That is exactly what I thought when I saw the thread in the games section.
     
Brass
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Mar 5, 2006, 11:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
Sorry, but if I'd seen that post, I would have deemed it to be spam, too.

Only PR departments put ® or ™ after trademarks. That alone screams shill. Your whole writing style sounds like PR, making sure to cross every t and dot every i in the wording of every product name, and oozing praise throughout.

Are you sure you're not a PR major?

tooki

You're probably right, but it's a sad day indeed when using correct English makes the author appear invalid!
     
turtle777
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Mar 5, 2006, 11:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
It's that meticulousness with respect to trademark symbols. That writing does not sound professional, it sounds commercial. THAT is the problem. And with companies now paying people to post on forums to promote their products, forum operators have been forced to be extremely suspicious of things that could be thinly-veiled spam.
Agreed.

But part of that "extreme suspicion" should be to consider how long that member has been active in the forum. In 98% of the cases, a dead-on giveaway. Spammers usually just registered, and have a low postcount.

-t
     
tooki
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Mar 6, 2006, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Brass
You're probably right, but it's a sad day indeed when using correct English makes the author appear invalid!
Wrong -- and not what I said. It's not the use of correct English -- one can do that without sounding like an advertising copywriter.

It's the style chosen -- where there is huge emphasis on brand names -- that makes it sound like advertising.

tooki
     
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Mar 6, 2006, 10:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by what_the_heck
Agreed.

But part of that "extreme suspicion" should be to consider how long that member has been active in the forum. In 98% of the cases, a dead-on giveaway. Spammers usually just registered, and have a low postcount.
Yes, generally speaking. I suppose it's possible for long-time members to begin receiving monies, though I suspect that is rare.

tooki
     
Chuckit
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Mar 6, 2006, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
It's the style chosen -- where there is huge emphasis on brand names -- that makes it sound like advertising.
Yeah. Take a look at how he bolds, italicizes and links every use of the phrase "EverQuest® Macintosh Edition" — completely spelled out each time, with a trademark symbol. Whether or not he is in advertising, that style looks way more like a press release than anything else.
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Mar 6, 2006, 08:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
Wrong -- and not what I said. It's not the use of correct English -- one can do that without sounding like an advertising copywriter.

It's the style chosen -- where there is huge emphasis on brand names -- that makes it sound like advertising.

tooki
Well, you did say, "making sure to cross every t and dot every i ". I thought that was a reference to writing precisely and correctly.

But in any case, it's still a little sad that a writer has to cramp their OWN style in order to be taken seriously, especially if their style invloves better english and correct writing that those who are usually taken seriously.

I'm not saying that the people that blocked the post were wrong, I'm just saying that it's very sad that it has come to this.
     
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Mar 6, 2006, 08:39 PM
 
I said that figuratively speaking, and you left out a key portion of that clause: "...in the wording of every product name".

Nobody here -- nobody! -- is saying the OP should use improper grammar or orthography. What everyone is saying is that the extreme meticulousness with respect to product brands, and some other aspects of the style are too close to the style that is deliberately used by marketing departments and essentially no one else. The OP should continue to use correct grammar and orthography, but should choose a style that sounds more "civilian" and natural. His style is out of place even for a magazine.

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Mar 6, 2006, 08:52 PM
 
And it's really not "better" in any meaningful sense than the writing of somebody who simply didn't triple-emphasize every product name, link to the same Web site 12 times and continually insert useless courtesy marks. Perhaps not worse, but not better and certainly less natural.
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Mar 6, 2006, 11:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
I said that figuratively speaking, and you left out a key portion of that clause: "...in the wording of every product name".

Nobody here -- nobody! -- is saying the OP should use improper grammar or orthography. What everyone is saying is that the extreme meticulousness with respect to product brands, and some other aspects of the style are too close to the style that is deliberately used by marketing departments and essentially no one else. The OP should continue to use correct grammar and orthography, but should choose a style that sounds more "civilian" and natural. His style is out of place even for a magazine.

tooki
I still think it's a bit sad that someone cannot use their OWN style when writing their OWN post without being blocked. As I said earlier, I can understand why it was blocked, but it's a sad state of affairs when it comes to that!
     
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Mar 7, 2006, 01:42 AM
 
How is it sad? If you make something that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, even if it is some other waterfowl, people will think it's a duck!

This is really just someone adopting features that are very unique to one particular style of writing. It's out of place in any other situation. That's it.

If the OP dropped the trademark symbols and full naming of things at every opportunity, I think people would at least have given it a chance. But with it looking like a piece that the PR department was allowed to edit before publication, you can't blame anyone for mis-identifying it.

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Mar 7, 2006, 05:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
How is it sad? If you make something that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, even if it is some other waterfowl, people will think it's a duck!

This is really just someone adopting features that are very unique to one particular style of writing. It's out of place in any other situation. That's it.

If the OP dropped the trademark symbols and full naming of things at every opportunity, I think people would at least have given it a chance. But with it looking like a piece that the PR department was allowed to edit before publication, you can't blame anyone for mis-identifying it.

tooki
Actually, I did NOT blame anyone for mis-identifying it. I thought I made it quite clear that I understood why they did what they did. I was just trying to say that it was unfortunate, even if legitimate.
     
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Mar 7, 2006, 05:31 PM
 
I notice that you forgot to mention that EQ/Mac is crippleware: you can't play alongside PC users. Perhaps this contributed to the problem?
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Mar 7, 2006, 06:42 PM
 
This thread is a representative example of how people are today: you all agree that the OP is not a spammer and that his thread should not have been closed (although you understand that there were valid ground to close the post in the first place), but that being said, almost everyone criticizes the OP writing style, jumping on him, instead of saying something along the lines of "Yeah I thought it was spam too when I saw it, but now that the situation is explained, it is clear that it is not, and your post should be restored and you should be in your right to be angry".

Same thing happened recently for the user who had trouble with his PowerBook and AppleCare.. You all know damn well that the person is right, but you spend your time argumenting against him instead of being sympathizing "Yeah, you're right, but <reason why there was an imbroglio>. I know that sucks".. Now YOU sound like companies' apologists.

The thread should have stopped after:
Originally Posted by What the heck
Your review was great, but unfortunately, looked too professional. Of course they thought you were being paid to post this.

The problem is that you just registered, and then posted this. If you were a longtime member, they would have not treated you like this. But I agree, to delete your post and replace it is bad. I wouldn't stay in a place like that.
It explained everything: your post looked suspicious, that's why it was closed, but in the end, they still were wrong. I mean, wake up! Once the mistake has been cleared up, the discussion should go toward a way for him to get his review posted back and encouragement, but now all we see is a bunch of people whining and bashing him for using the correct (but unusual) way of writing things.

Where is this going? Are we going to help him get his text back or waste time repeating what was implied in the post's closure?
     
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Mar 7, 2006, 06:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire
Where is this going? Are we going to help him get his text back or waste time repeating what was implied in the post's closure?
Pfff, don't lecture us. In case you haven't noticed: the opinion here at MacNN is that it is NOT ok to just delet content, but that with the rise of forum spammers, one has got to be careful about appearance.

So, what have YOU done to help him ?

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Mar 7, 2006, 06:57 PM
 
What, pray tell, do you expect us to do? All email Ars telling them they made a boo-boo?! A whole lot of good that'll do.

What we did do is nail down the problem, and hopefully then it won't come up again.

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FireWire
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Mar 7, 2006, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by what_the_heck
Pfff, don't lecture us. In case you haven't noticed: the opinion here at MacNN is that it is NOT ok to just delet content, but that with the rise of forum spammers, one has got to be careful about appearance.

So, what have YOU done to help him ?
Yes, I have noticed, as I said in my post. The problem resides exactly there: you agree on something, but then you don't act upon it. If we don't agree, at least we can discuss and argument until one party aknowledges that the other is right. But when both parties agree on one point, then don't act accordingly, there's a problem. All people are doing now is add fuel to the fire.
Originally Posted by tooki
What we did do is nail down the problem, and hopefully then it won't come up again.
Well that's a good thing, but the wording used in the posts are not exactly consistant with this statement. It looks more like finger pointing to me: "Your post got deleted. It's your fault because you write like a PR departement" instead of "This is unfortunate. Next time, try to <solution>. The mods should have tried to contact you before, or at least rectify the situation once it is explained". The way "what_the_heck" said it in his first post was the appropriate way.

And no, I did not "help him", because I'm not familiar with the forum in question (rules, moderator) and at least I did not make him feel like he's responsible for the situation and that nothing can be done about it.
( Last edited by FireWire; Mar 7, 2006 at 07:38 PM. )
     
iLikebeer
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Mar 7, 2006, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire
This thread is a representative example of how people are today: you all agree that the OP is not a spammer and that his thread should not have been closed (although you understand that there were valid ground to close the post in the first place), but that being said, almost everyone criticizes the OP writing style, jumping on him, instead of saying something along the lines of "Yeah I thought it was spam too when I saw it, but now that the situation is explained, it is clear that it is not, and your post should be restored and you should be in your right to be angry".

Same thing happened recently for the user who had trouble with his PowerBook and AppleCare.. You all know damn well that the person is right, but you spend your time argumenting against him instead of being sympathizing "Yeah, you're right, but <reason why there was an imbroglio>. I know that sucks".. Now YOU sound like companies' apologists.

The thread should have stopped after: It explained everything: your post looked suspicious, that's why it was closed, but in the end, they still were wrong. I mean, wake up! Once the mistake has been cleared up, the discussion should go toward a way for him to get his review posted back and encouragement, but now all we see is a bunch of people whining and bashing him for using the correct (but unusual) way of writing things.

Where is this going? Are we going to help him get his text back or waste time repeating what was implied in the post's closure?
Wrong. He might not be a spammer, but no apologies are due. He needs to learn how to write in a way that people will read. I saw the first sentence and thought it was another spam. Just because a dozen people have admitted it isn't spam does not mean it should be restored.

First it needs to be edited in a way that normal people write. No one reads reviews that look like press bulletins because they assume they are being lied to. And he COULD, however unlikely it is, have been paid to put that article out. It's unfortunate for him he writes that way, but every person that reads it will still see it as spam in its current form. It's just a waste of bandwidth for whatever site it sits at unless rewritten.
     
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Mar 8, 2006, 12:18 AM
 
     
FireWire
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Mar 8, 2006, 02:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by iLikebeer
Wrong. He might not be a spammer, but no apologies are due. He needs to learn how to write in a way that people will read. I saw the first sentence and thought it was another spam. Just because a dozen people have admitted it isn't spam does not mean it should be restored.

First it needs to be edited in a way that normal people write. [...]
So if I understand you well, you don't care that it has been proven that the poster is in fact not a spammer.. all you care is that the articles that are found on the web have to be written in your taste, otherwise it should be rewritten? Wow, I hope you don't have children... "My way or no way" Do you tell people of color to whiten a bit because "normal" people are white??

I understand the style in which the review is written may be a little uncommon and that it may in fact be confused with spam, but I think that once it has been established that it is not the case, the post should be allowed back on the site. For the same reason a cop may intercept you because he thinks that your car is stolen, but after you have demonstrated that his suspicions were unfounded, he lets you get back to what you were doing...

Finally, it's not a waste of bandwidth only because it contains many ® and ™.. The real question is: is it a good and worthy review or not? It's only a forum after all, used by unpaid members. You cannot ask for perfection and since you don't pay, you can't order things the way you want "Write it that way or you're not being published"..
     
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Mar 8, 2006, 03:17 AM
 
^^ You have any idea what is being stated in this thread? You are so far out in left field you are in the parking lot of the stadium.
     
iLikebeer
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Mar 8, 2006, 03:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by FireWire
So if I understand you well, you don't care that it has been proven that the poster is in fact not a spammer.. all you care is that the articles that are found on the web have to be written in your taste, otherwise it should be rewritten? Wow, I hope you don't have children... "My way or no way" Do you tell people of color to whiten a bit because "normal" people are white??

I understand the style in which the review is written may be a little uncommon and that it may in fact be confused with spam, but I think that once it has been established that it is not the case, the post should be allowed back on the site. For the same reason a cop may intercept you because he thinks that your car is stolen, but after you have demonstrated that his suspicions were unfounded, he lets you get back to what you were doing...

Finally, it's not a waste of bandwidth only because it contains many ® and ™.. The real question is: is it a good and worthy review or not? It's only a forum after all, used by unpaid members. You cannot ask for perfection and since you don't pay, you can't order things the way you want "Write it that way or you're not being published"..
No, I just like to take things in context. There's a lot of content on the internet. I'm not going to investigate everything that looks like spam and neither will most people. If it looks like spam, it doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. I skip over it. Administrators and mods have to do it so often that they delete it.

I'm not saying anything about "my way or the highway", just reality. The responsibility to get a message across is the writer's, not the reader's. He had to realize if he posted something that looked like spam on a lot of forums in which he had no reputation that it would be deleted or skipped over. If he didn't realize that, now he will. If Ars put it back up, they'd have to deal with eleventy billion emails and PM's about a spam post. The writing is fine, it just looks fake because of the style he used.

edit* lol, and because my opinion is different from yours I tell people to whiten up? You should have kids too, you seem to be a very non-hateful person.
     
 
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