[goMac]

Originally posted by george68:
See, it's **** like that. You claim it's not hard to see through Bush iwhs his WMD. Do you think that Bush was in Iraq looking for WMD? Did HE provide the reports?> Did HE compile them? No. He waaas provided winth information.... he told the public what he was provided with. I do not see hwot this was his fault.

- ROb

When a President is in office and he announces something to the American public himself I expect it to be correct. The sources he got the information from was his choice. He was warned the information was most likely incorrect and he kept it in his address anyway. It was his staff he chose. In the end it is his responsibility because he gave the final ok and provided the information to the American public himself. If Bush's staff provides him with bad information, thats his problem, not mine. He should find better staff next time.

[historylme]

I just saw it: IT ROCKS, literally.

Whether its propaganda or not, he is using the same weapons that President is and has been using... at least this Movie is trying to raise awareness and does provide facts regarding past events, e.g Bush connection, Dick and his company and etc.

I so hope that Bush gets ousted, he deserves nothing better than a kick in the ass.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally posted by wolfen:
[B}They don't. They're willing to send everyone ELSE'S kids to war. They are not risking as much as they demand others to risk. Yet they (republican senators) gain politically and possibly financially by sacrifices our children make.

The editing was appropriate, the remarks were irrelevant, the point was made. [/B]

What point, exactly, was made?

First off, did Moore point out the numbers of Senators from each side of the aisle who voted for a resolution giving the President the power to attack Iraq? You keep talking as if it were only Republicans who did that.

Even John Kerry voted for it (before he voted against it.)

The other point that should be made is that the United States military is made up of volunteers. A Senator can't be made to feel bad simply because they won't "offer up" their child. If the son or daughter of a Senator volunteers, that's THEIR decision. Think about that. The decision to send our military off to fight a war is up to politicians, but the decision to join the military isn't.

Who are the ones clamoring for reinstatment of the draft? Al Sharpton? Chuck Schumer? Neither are Republicans. (they have their reasons, but they are the ones who are trying to make it non-voluntary!)

Back on topic-

As for the movie, I tried to watch BFC. It's been on TV lately. The first time I turned it on, it was when Moore was making himself look like an ass by ambushing a man suffering from Altzeimers in his own home. I didn't find the argument compelling in the least. And I found it very cheesy when Moore took a minute or so to finally get the picture of the girl to stand up at the pillar outside Heston's home. He probably thought it was deep. I found it to be reaching.

So as for F911, I doubt I'll watch it in the theaters. I don't go to movies in theaters much. I might watch it when it's on TV sometime, just out of morbid curiousity. The same reason I tried to watch BFC.

Moore has done his best to play savior, wise man, thorn in the side of the right and martyr, but the fact is, he's just a guy with a camera and an inability to get a sentence out without making a wise crack. I think he's probably very similar to me on a personal basis. Raised in a small town, etc. I would guess that he's also got self esteem issues due to his weight, similar to me.

Politically, however, he comes off to me as simply ignorant. Perhaps he's just pollyannaish. But he lacks common sense.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Moore-on-a-thon.

[goMac]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
Even John Kerry voted for it (before he voted against it.)

I'm sorry but that is the lamest fud I have ever seen the Republicans spread. Here is a quote from Kerry when he voted yes:

In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

Here is another from the same speech:

Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.

In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize "yet." Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.

-------

He made it QUITE clear that he would support the war in Iraq as long as Bush's reasons were justified, which they were not. No weapons of mass destruction were found, and Bush did not work with the UN, which were conditions for Kerry's support.

The second bill he did vote against was a bill expanding military spending in Iraq, as he no longer felt Bush's reasons were justified. He was giving Bush the benefit of the doubt. This is the first I voted yes, then I voted no thing.

I really find it ironic that Bush supporters are in here talking about how one-sided and fake Moore is, but yet making one sided, fact ignoring quotes themselves.

Here is the complete text of the speech:
http://www.independentsforkerry.org/...erry-iraq.html

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

[Xeo]

+1

[ghost_flash]

Xeo posted:

I know what you mean, I have family like that. "Heaven forbid that they watch something that might challenge their beliefs." I would say that this movie is going to the the final nail in George Dubbya's coffin... I won't be sad to see him go and I won't be looking forward to the next *sshole that takes his place.

And to answer your question: Yes, totally.

Nice post Xeo... (Why did you change it?)

I went to the movies last night. Saw "Dodgeball". The theater across from ours was showing F911. All the losers waiting to get in was funny. What a bunch of non-bathing, long-haired idiots. Someone should do a mockumentary of them like F-ck911 of Moore's.

Bush is going to be re-elected by a landslide. Kerry is now employing formerly convicted sex offenders to go door-to-door and get people to vote 'against Bush'.

Kerry is the joke. Moore is the punchline.

[gatekeeper]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Kerry is now employing formerly convicted sex offenders to go door-to-door and get people to vote 'against Bush'.

Incorrect.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by george68:
See, it's **** like that. You claim it's not hard to see through Bush iwhs his WMD. Do you think that Bush was in Iraq looking for WMD? Did HE provide the reports?> Did HE compile them? No. He waaas provided winth information.... he told the public what he was provided with. I do not see hwot this was his fault.

- ROb

That's not entirely true. There were suspicions of the validity of Iraq getting plutonium from Africa. But Bush had it put in his state of the union address anyway. You don't think he could have had *gasp* ulterior motives for invading Iraq?! Shocking

For some reason people have a hard time believing/dealing with the fact that governments lie all the time, yes even the great and wonderful US of A will, and has, lied to it's people.
If lying makes people do what you want, if it makes you money, and there are no laws against it because... YOU make the laws, why not do it?

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by gatekeeper:
Incorrect.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...tes.felons.ap/

[Beewee]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Xeo posted:



Nice post Xeo... (Why did you change it?)

I can answer that, it sucks sharing a computer when you don't have it set up to delete cookies. That was my post. Sorry for any confusion.

[zachs]

Originally posted by dole:
It don't seem like he fully learned his lesson. He said Bush was the person who let members of the bin Laden family leave the country after 9/11, but it was Richard Clarke who let them go. Anyways, I might check it out once it comes to DVD.

http://www.thehill.com/news/052604/clarke.aspx

Please try again:

WHAT THE FILM SAYS:

Sen. Byron Dorgan: We had some airplanes authorized at the highest levels of our government to fly to pick up Osama Bin Laden's family members and others from Saudi Arabia and transport them out of this country.

Narration: It turns out that the White House approved planes to pick up the bin Ladens and numerous other Saudis. At least six private jets and nearly two dozen commercial planes carried the Saudis and the Bin ladens out of the U.S. after September 13th. In all, 142 Saudis, including 24 members of the bin Laden family, were allowed to leave the country.



Additionally, in an interview with author Craig Unger, the film makes reference to the fact that these individuals were briefly interviewed before they were allowed to leave.

[gatekeeper]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...tes.felons.ap/

Although it works against the re-election of President Bush, ACT is an independent group not affiliated with Kerry's campaign -- federal law forbids such coordination. Yet ACT is stocked with veteran Democratic political operatives, many with past ties to Kerry and his advisers.

Allison Dobson, a spokeswoman with the Kerry campaign, said there is no coordination with ACT, and of the policy: "We're unaware of it and have nothing to do with it."

Moore obviously doesn't have a monopoly on dishonesty.

[bleuvixen]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...tes.felons.ap/

"At least two felons who were stationed at a Missouri halfway house have since moved into the community and are again employed by ACT "and are a tremendous part of our team,"



p.s. you are wrong, sorry.

"CT is an independent group not affiliated with Kerry's campaign -- federal law forbids such coordination."

Perhaps read an article before getting all giddy and posting it then looking ignorant? just a thought...

[ghost_flash]

Riiiiiiight....

[bleuvixen]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Riiiiiiight....

Good answer!

:Iknowyouarebutwhatami?:

[Beewee]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Bush is going to be re-elected by a landslide.

I don't think Bush has much of a chance. The more of our people that die in Iraq the low his standing is over here. Kerry is already ahead in recent polls where before they were almost dead even. And since Americans love to sit in air conditioned theatres and stuff them selves with confections, Moore picked the perfect medium to get his message to the people. I'll say it again: "nail in the coffin"

Our entire government is the joke and the American people are the punchline. We only serve to get business men elected so they can push their own interests, all the while claiming it is what we want. If we suffer who cares, if soldiers die thinking they are serving their country and protecting "freedom", who cares as long as money is being made somewhere.

Our soldiers used to protect freedom, now all they protect is a word that is used to rally us together like sheep, to justify loss of life, loss of happiness, loss of liberty.

"By now he probably thinks freedom is something he dreamed." --Anthony Hopkins

[Joshua]

Originally posted by zachs:
Please try again:

He may not have lied outright, but that is a pretty substantial omission--particularly since he uses Clarke elsewhere in the movie to slam the administration.

[slimshady023]

Originally posted by davesimondotcom:
What point, exactly, was made?

First off, did Moore point out the numbers of Senators from each side of the aisle who voted for a resolution giving the President the power to attack Iraq? You keep talking as if it were only Republicans who did that.

Even John Kerry voted for it (before he voted against it.)

The other point that should be made is that the United States military is made up of volunteers. A Senator can't be made to feel bad simply because they won't "offer up" their child. If the son or daughter of a Senator volunteers, that's THEIR decision. Think about that. The decision to send our military off to fight a war is up to politicians, but the decision to join the military isn't.

Who are the ones clamoring for reinstatment of the draft? Al Sharpton? Chuck Schumer? Neither are Republicans. (they have their reasons, but they are the ones who are trying to make it non-voluntary!)

Back on topic-

As for the movie, I tried to watch BFC. It's been on TV lately. The first time I turned it on, it was when Moore was making himself look like an ass by ambushing a man suffering from Altzeimers in his own home. I didn't find the argument compelling in the least. And I found it very cheesy when Moore took a minute or so to finally get the picture of the girl to stand up at the pillar outside Heston's home. He probably thought it was deep. I found it to be reaching.

So as for F911, I doubt I'll watch it in the theaters. I don't go to movies in theaters much. I might watch it when it's on TV sometime, just out of morbid curiousity. The same reason I tried to watch BFC.

Moore has done his best to play savior, wise man, thorn in the side of the right and martyr, but the fact is, he's just a guy with a camera and an inability to get a sentence out without making a wise crack. I think he's probably very similar to me on a personal basis. Raised in a small town, etc. I would guess that he's also got self esteem issues due to his weight, similar to me.

Politically, however, he comes off to me as simply ignorant. Perhaps he's just pollyannaish. But he lacks common sense.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Moore-on-a-thon.

Go watch the movie. Not a fan of people sticking to party lines and becoming politically ignorant. Like when Cali Democrats re-elected Gray Davis. It was the joke that made nobody laugh. Same is true with this election and George Dubya.

"It's like the old proverb. Fool me once, and shame on me. Fool me twice... and uh... well... the whole point is you can't fool me again."
- George Bush

Hmm. Just one fry short of a Happy Meal.

[george68]

Originally posted by Beewee:
That's not entirely true. There were suspicions of the validity of Iraq getting plutonium from Africa. But Bush had it put in his state of the union address anyway. You don't think he could have had *gasp* ulterior motives for invading Iraq?! Shocking

What other motives could he have had"!???!? Oil obviously hasn't gotten an cheaper, and the pres certainly hasn't BENIFITED from having a bunch of stupid ass liberals like yourself spread so much propaganda about him.... so please explaing his 'ulterior' (ha) motives....

- Rob

[george68]

Originally posted by Beewee:
I don't think Bush has much of a chance. The more of our people that die in Iraq the low his standing is over here. Kerry is already ahead in recent polls where before they were almost dead even. And since Americans love to sit in air conditioned theatres and stuff them selves with confections, Moore picked the perfect medium to get his message to the people. I'll say it again: "nail in the coffin"

Except for one problem: Kerry is worse than Bush. If you think people are going to vote for Kerry, you're mistaken. New York probably will, and other freaky liberal states, but not the majority.

- Rob

[MOTHERWELL]

Can 'we all' please refrain from cluttering the forum with these asinine posts? Maybe a thread lock?

Originally posted by george68:
What other motives could he have had"!???!? Oil obviously hasn't gotten an cheaper, and the pres certainly hasn't BENIFITED from having a bunch of stupid ass liberals like yourself spread so much propaganda about him.... so please explaing his 'ulterior' (ha) motives....

- Rob

The name calling and hypocritical grammar lessons are totally uncalled for.

[starman]

Playing devil's advocate, he does have a point.

Mike

[bleuvixen]

Originally posted by george68:
If you think people are going to vote for Kerry, you're mistaken. New York probably will, and other freaky liberal states, but not the majority.

More people voted for Gore last time.

[goMac]

Someone I know said the funniest thing the other day...

"Bush can sleep with whoever he wants as long as he gets us out of Iraq."

[BlackGriffen]

Originally posted by Joshua:
He may not have lied outright, but that is a pretty substantial omission--particularly since he uses Clarke elsewhere in the movie to slam the administration.

He's phrasing things in the most, shall we say, beneficial light to his cause. At least he's being accurate about it this time.

You expect any different?

BG

[Jaey]

Originally posted by Beewee:
I don't think Bush has much of a chance. The more of our people that die in Iraq the low his standing is over here. Kerry is already ahead in recent polls where before they were almost dead even. And since Americans love to sit in air conditioned theatres and stuff them selves with confections, Moore picked the perfect medium to get his message to the people. I'll say it again: "nail in the coffin"

Our entire government is the joke and the American people are the punchline. We only serve to get business men elected so they can push their own interests, all the while claiming it is what we want. If we suffer who cares, if soldiers die thinking they are serving their country and protecting "freedom", who cares as long as money is being made somewhere.

Our soldiers used to protect freedom, now all they protect is a word that is used to rally us together like sheep, to justify loss of life, loss of happiness, loss of liberty.

"By now he probably thinks freedom is something he dreamed." --Anthony Hopkins

You're absolutely right. But does the average American think that? Remember, some people actually voted for Bush.

[nagromme]

It's a cinematic editorial, not intended to be 100% thorough, 100% proven investigative reporting. That would have made a 50-hour (and less fun!) movie. As Michael Moore himself said, he's presenting his opinion and his case, and you're free to disagree.

I find it very persuasive. Some of it has an exaggerated slant, and I keep an open mind about that. But behind that there are some VERY disturbing truths with lots of undeniable evidence.

Bush has done little except damage the economy, turn Americans against each other, and recruit more terrorists than Al Qaeda could ever have done without his help. Only the super-rich are better off with him--and only in the short term.

It's too late to prevent the long-term damage done to America and the world by Bush's greed and short-sightedness. Thousands of Iraqi civilians and hundreds of Americans are not coming back to life. But we can START getting this country back on track, and I very much look forward to it.

Some people think that when the president harms America, we should be loyal to the president and not to America. Sometimes they even say that's for the good of the troops! That's REALLY scary.

John Kerry is a politician, like any candidate, but he has genuine intelligence and integrity instead of Bush's good-old-boy act. You don't see him running ads with blatant lies like Bush saying Kerry opposes armor for troops, when in fact he only opposed the Republicans terrible plan to pay for it, and supported a better way! Or the ads that say Kerry opposed tax cuts--when in fact, he simply supported tax cuts DIFFERENT from the ones the Republicans wanted to give the wealthy.

Kerry needs to win this vote--and it really looks like he's going to. (AND he needs to become president, unlike the last candidate who won the vote )

It would also be nice if the Republicans didn't place police at Florida's predominantly-black polling places to provide intimidation, like they did in the last election. Maybe I'm asking too much

[ghost_flash]

The popular vote does NOT win the presidency.

The economy is doing well. Home purchases are higher now than in the past 13 years.
etc...

It would be nice if the Democrats didn't bus elderly to vote and then on-the-way tell them who to vote for. (Florida)

They want convicted felons to have the right to vote. (Democrats)

[MindFad]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
The popular vote does NOT win the presidency.

It should.

The economy is doing well.

Well-ish. Dubya's still aiming to be the first President to not create a new job during a Presidency in how many decades now?

Well, at least we got tons of new low-paying jobs and burger-flippers. Whew! Go, economy, go!

It would be nice if the Democrats didn't bus elderly to vote and then on-the-way tell them who to vote for. (Florida)

Yeah, that happens all the time. Those feisty Dems throwing mindless old people onto buses and forcing them to vote Democratic.

They want convicted felons to have the right to vote. (Democrats)

Why shouldn't they have the right to vote if they are American citizens?

The stupid-to-begin-with felons list disenfranchised thousands of legal voters here in Florida and prevented them from voting simply because they shared the same name as someone on the list. This happened in 2000. Good thing they have gotten rid of it this year. Or so I heard. Who knows, though, with Dubya's bro as our Governor and that slug Katherine Harris.

Anyway, probably seeing F9/11 tomorrow!

[)\/(aelstrom]

I am incredibly happy we are in a country where we can say these things.

I generally do not agree with Michael Moore, and as I WILL not see this movie ( as I'm dirt broke ) I will only hope that people will always be entitled to their opinions. Oh, and BTW, NEVER regard ANY news source as unbiased, or unfiltered. They have clients to please.

-)\/(

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by george68:
See, it's **** like that. You claim it's not hard to see through Bush iwhs his WMD. Do you think that Bush was in Iraq looking for WMD? Did HE provide the reports?> Did HE compile them? No. He waaas provided winth information.... he told the public what he was provided with. I do not see hwot this was his fault.

- ROb

Because you are using common sense. You aren't letting your political slant taint that.

Originally posted by history1me:
I just saw it: IT ROCKS, literally.

Whether its propaganda or not, he is using the same weapons that President is and has been using... at least this Movie is trying to raise awareness and does provide facts regarding past events, e.g Bush connection, Dick and his company and etc.

I so hope that Bush gets ousted, he deserves nothing better than a kick in the ass.

And you come to this conclusion because of the MM film?

Wow people are more gullible than I thought.

Originally posted by bleuvixen:
"CT is an independent group not affiliated with Kerry's campaign -- federal law forbids such coordination."

Perhaps read an article before getting all giddy and posting it then looking ignorant? just a thought...

Yeah I feel the same way when people point to Bush and "big business" and "Halburton" too.

Originally posted by bleuvixen:
More people voted for Gore last time.

[zachs]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

What's your point? More people voted for Gore than Bush.

[Zimphire]

I was putting into perspective.

[zachs]

I just got back from seeing it. WOW...this film is extremely well-done. Michael Moore is barely in it at all; about 98% of it is clips from news broadcasts or from videos made in Iraq or just Bush et al. hanging themselves.

The woman whose son died in Iraq was excellent, especially when she read her son's last letter home. And I loved when they showed a soldier in a hospital, and he said, "I used to be a hardcore Republican; but now, when I get home, I'm going to do everything I can possibly do to make sure the Democrats win control." And another soldier in Iraq who said, "If Donald Rumsfeld was here, I'd ask for his resignation."

At the end of the film, we gave it a standing ovation. And every show for the rest of today is sold out.

[zachs]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I was putting into perspective.

Putting what into perspective?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zachs:
I just got back from seeing it. WOW...this film is extremely well-done. Michael Moore is barely in it at all; about 98% of it is clips from news broadcasts or from videos made in Iraq or just Bush et al. hanging themselves.

The woman whose son died in Iraq was excellent, especially when she read her son's last letter home. And I loved when they showed a soldier in a hospital, and he said, "I used to be a hardcore Republican; but now, when I get home, I'm going to do everything I can possibly do to make sure the Democrats win control." And another soldier in Iraq who said, "If Donald Rumsfeld was here, I'd ask for his resignation."

At the end of the film, we gave it a standing ovation. And every show for the rest of today is sold out.

In New York, Not surprised. Lots of Mooreons there.

I am full of Crocodile tears really.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zachs:
Putting what into perspective?

Er the election...

What do you think I was speaking of?

[zachs]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
In other words, FUD.

And the Mooreons suck it in.

Croc tears, Croc tears.

Really? You tell that to the woman who's son died in Iraq, OK?

[zachs]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Er the election...

What do you think I was speaking of?

OK...I guess I'm just not getting it...

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zachs:
Really? You tell that to the woman who's son died in Iraq, OK?

I am not belittling her for being upset.

I am making fun of MM for using this as political FUD to smear.

Despicable. He should be ashamed of himself.

But I somehow doubt he is.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zachs:
OK...I guess I'm just not getting it...

You said it, not me.

[zachs]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am not belittling her for being upset.

I am making fun of MM for using this as political FUD to smear.

Despicable. He should be ashamed of himself.

But I somehow doubt he is.

Uhhhh...she agreed to do it....

[zachs]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
You said it, not me.

No sh*t. I just don't get what the number of counties won has to do with votes won...

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zachs:
Uhhhh...she agreed to do it....

I never said she didn't..

That doesn't change the point I was making..

Originally posted by zachs:
No sh*t. I just don't get what the number of counties won has to do with votes won...

Bigger cities usually = More liberals. Bigger cities usually = More people.

If you look at the map there, MOST of the US voted for Bush. Gore had the BIG cities, with a lot of people in them.

So Gore had more Votes, Bush had more of the country.

See how the red practically covers the country. Saying "Gore had more votes" is kind of misleading.

[zachs]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I never said she didn't..

That doesn't change the point I was making..

You were saying Moore was using this as "political FUD" and that he should "be ashamed of himself."

But she agreed to it, so why should he be ashamed?

[zachs]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Bigger cities usually = More liberals. Bigger cities usually = More people.

If you look at the map there, MOST of the US voted for Bush. Gore had the BIG cities, with a lot of people in them.

So Gore had more Votes, Bush had more of the country.

Still got more votes...but whatever.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zachs:
You were saying Moore was using this as "political FUD" and that he should "be ashamed of himself."

But she agreed to it, so why should he be ashamed?

If you have sex with a women while you are married, and she agrees to have sex with you, does that suddenly make it ok? Of course not.

[zachs]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
See how the red practically covers the country. Saying "Gore had more votes" is kind of misleading.

Gore: 50,996,116
Bush: 50,456,169

What's misleading?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zachs:
Still got more votes...but whatever.

Yes, and that is misleading.

Bush got more of the country.
Bush won the election.

Gore had more votes
Gore lost the election.

Which is more important here, Having more votes, or having more of the country?