[McDriver]

I live in Sweden and just for the heck of it I decided to check the difference in the price of a Mac and a Pc in the high end spectrum of performance. I have tried to make the systems comparable but of course there is not really an exact match but close enough. Be happy you don't live in Sweden we have 25% tax (vat). There is a meaning to this post, if you bear with me for a moment. The reason I did this was to find some ammuniton in my ongoing discussion with a pc-addicted friend of mine and I am not sure that the arguments of "ease of use, nicer gui, less games but good ones!!!!, unix and on and on" is really getting to him. Here is the result

Power Mac G4 Dual 1.25GHz w/167MHz system bus
� 512MB PC2700 DDR SDRAM - 1 DIMM
� 120GB Ultra ATA drive
� Optical 1 - Apple SuperDrive
� Optical 2 - None
� NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium dual-display w/128MB DDR
� 56K internal modem
� Apple Pro Keyboard - U.S. English
� Mac OS - U.S. English

Digital Lifestyle
iMovie 2, iPhoto 1.1, iTunes 3, iDVD 2.1(requires SuperDrive).
Internet
iChat, Address Book, Sherlock 3 QuickTime 6, DVD Player, Mac OS X Mail Microsoft Internet Explorer
Publishing Tools
Acrobat Reader, Art Director�s Toolkit, FAXstf, Graphic Converter, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, PixelNhance, Preview, Snapz Pro.
Developer Tools
Project Builder, Applescript Studio, Interface Builder, gcc compiler.
Monitor 19" ~$350
Total cost ~$5170 (including tax)


BlueLine Extreme Gamer Athlon
AMD Athlon XP 2200+
Volcano9 Coolmod
512 Mb PC-2700 DDR
IBM Deskstar 120 Gb 7200 rpm
GeForce 4 Ti4400 128 Mb DDR DVI TV-out
16x/40x DVD Slot in
DVD-R-RW Pioneer 104
SoundBlaster Audigy! 5.1 DD
ASUS A7V333-Raid
SureCom 10/100 Mbit
TH-101 Miditower ATX 300W
Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Logitech Pilot Mouse Optical
Creative Inspire 5300 5.1 Speakers
19" Huyndai Q910 (1600x1200/85Hz) Total cost ~ $2470 (including tax)
No software or OS included

Price difference is $2700 (in sweden)

So how to defend yourself? I have ran out of arguments!

[greenG4]

A new dual 1.25: $3,299
A 19" monitor: $350
A perfect computing experience: PRICELESS

[McDriver]

Originally posted by greenG4:
A new dual 1.25: $3,299
A 19" monitor: $350
A perfect computing experience: PRICELESS

Is that including tax and with the Gforce 4 and speakers?

[MacOS]

Originally posted by McDriver:
Is that including tax and with the Gforce 4 and speakers?

He�s referring to a TV commercial in the US for a credit card company. It�s a running theme they use. Example:

Two Baseball Tickets: $60
Two Hotdogs: $20
A day with your son at the ball game: Priceless

Anyway, you both made the point already. Just look at your list for the Mac vs the PC. Notice that all you have on the PC is technical spec's. Both of you made the point that its NOT about spec's but the Mac has the best "computing experience"

I beleive this to be the biggest asset for the Mac. I run two servers (Win2K) and 15 workstations (WinXP), if we used Mac's I'd be out of a job Well maybe not, but I have a lot less to do

[McDriver]

Originally posted by MacOS:

I beleive this to be the biggest asset for the Mac. I run two servers (Win2K) and 15 workstations (WinXP), if we used Mac's I'd be out of a job Well maybe not, but I have a lot less to do

Interesting, do you consider the xp to be stable? There are many reports on how Mac networks require less support than win networks but the reports I have read mainly referred to win2k and 98. As for the Mac experience being priceless is just one factor, there are many "older� macs still running and being kept much longer then the pc systems. I mean longevity can be a factor to consider when we discuss price/performance issues. As a Mac diehard I still find it hard to defend my position concerning the hardware.

[raskol]

Mac Vs. PC is almost entirely an ethical issue. I am tired of comparing costs of one vs the other. Cost is not why people buy Macs. Everyone knows they cost more up front. The only way to compare costs is the cost of maintenance, longevity and productivity. If your dullard friends buy PCs let them burn in hell with Microsoft. Who cares?

When I argue with my friends about PC Vs. Mac I always ask them what they got done last week on their PC. Unless they use them at work, the only thing they use PCs for is playing games and surfing the web anyway.

Bottom Line: Using a Mac makes you happy it is a satisfying experience. Just looking at my hardware makes me smile because it is sexy. Even riced out PC boxes are UGLY compared to Macs. Stupid lights and aluminum 90 degree angles suck!

PCs are for ignorant peasants!

Yes I am an elitist and I don't apologize for it. Suck on the Microsoft teet and burn in hell.

[Zimmerman]

In all honesty, I don't encourage people to get Macs just because I think they are the most wonderful thing in the world. I actually tell them if they are interested in gaming, get a PC. If they need a basic machine for rudimentary office tasks, get a PC. If they want a home machine that they can play a few games on, play MP3's check email, play yahoo pool, watch DVD's, or even do a few ameture video projects, THEN I tell them to get a Mac.

Personally, I discourage people from buying the high end systems. In my opinion, a business should be punished for delivering an inferior product. You punish them with the pocket book. Until Apple addresses the issues that many people have, I can't reccomend their high end systems. If its the ease of use they want, then the low end G4 iMac or eMac or the basic tower should suffice nicely. If power is their priority, I would have to say that OSX+sucky hardware |> XP+topnotch hardware.

|> means not greater than

[raskol]

Originally posted by Zimmerman:

Personally, I discourage people from buying the high end systems. In my opinion, a business should be punished for delivering an inferior product. You punish them with the pocket book. Until Apple addresses the issues that many people have, I can't reccomend their high end systems.

|> means not greater than [/B]

I agree whole-heartedly. In my experience the low-end always delivers the most bang for the buck and the least depreciation. It is just like buying a Honda (Volvo for you Swedes) or a Porsche. I don't care how wonderful a Porsche is you will lose your ass in depreciation. High-end is for people with more money than they know what to do with.

[MacOS]

Originally posted by McDriver:


Interesting, do you consider the xp to be stable? There are many reports on how Mac networks require less support than win networks but the reports I have read mainly referred to win2k and 98. As for the Mac experience being priceless is just one factor, there are many "older� macs still running and being kept much longer then the pc systems. I mean longevity can be a factor to consider when we discuss price/performance issues. As a Mac diehard I still find it hard to defend my position concerning the hardware.

[Flame Jacket On] Yes! We switch all of our workstaions from Win98SE to WinXP and I noticed a huge increase stability. Win98 is a joke when compared to ANY MacOS version. Never really used Win2K so I can't answer that.

As for networking, the same is true with Win98. It's a joke. It's real pain in the ass to setup on a network. Just having to re-start the machine after making adjustment in the Network Control Panel is enough to want to shoot yourself Ok, I'm having fun hear. Again ANY MacOS version wins hands down IMHO.

WinXP is painless in this reguard.

I have 2 boxes I use at home. 1 Mac Dual 867 and 1 Wintel P4 2Ghz I built. I won't get into the details but the price differance was only about $150. And I still don't have Firewire or Gigabit ethernet on the PC. Most PC's use newer tech than most Mac's (tho the gap is less nowadays) (again I'll leave other to debate this) but I got to tell ya, I don't see the advantage the newer tech makes for the type of work I do.

To help your case, the real benefit for the Mac is in less maintenance and better computing experience (as already notced above). On the PC there is BIOS updates, Driver updates, and 60+ updates to WinXP so far this year alone. Then we could talk about virus, but I'll stop.

I'm going to play a game on my Mac!

Oh one last point. At the next cocktail party listen to the conversation of both camps. Mac users will discuss the cool things they made on there Mac While the PC users discuss nuts and bolts.

[soho]

As a devoted mac user, I love to read this forum for useful info; but I'm tired of the usual ego stroking threads that are so prevalent in the mac universe.
I own a G4, some people prefer their pc, so what?
This thread is a pretext for another useless critic of the other side... what do you need to prove?




"PCs are for ignorant peasants! "

What about people who wish they had a mac but can't afford it? Do you call them all peasants? If the "elitist" expensive macs were the only computers on earth, how would they surf the net?
-----------------

"In all honesty, I don't encourage people to get Macs just because I think they are the most wonderful thing in the world. I actually tell them if they are interested in gaming, get a PC. If they need a basic machine for rudimentary office tasks, get a PC. If they want a home machine that they can play a few games on, play MP3's check email, play yahoo pool, watch DVD's, or even do a few ameture video projects, THEN I tell them to get a Mac."

I didn't know you couldn't play MP3's, DVD's, check email, do video on a pc! Thanks to you, now I know that my friend's athlon has a fake dvd drive and a phony email program from the 70's!
--------------------
"Both of you made the point that its NOT about spec's but the Mac has the best "computing experience"

I beleive this to be the biggest asset for the Mac."

When the 400 mhz G4 came out, mac users were always BOASTING on how their machines were supercomputers and how they crusehd pcs etc... notice how sheer power is not important anymore when the mac is lagging behind...


Cheers, and chill out

[raskol]

Elitists will continue to foot the bill for the rest of humanity so that someone actually persues new horizons.

The ignorant peasant thing is 50% joke. You shouldn't take any statement like that seriously. I just hate that Microsoft and Intel control an industry that had such potential in the beginning. Now the computer industry is boring.

Anything Mac fans say positive about Macs is to get more people to buy them so that we can have more software and Apple can make enough money to continue to innovate. I hate to think what computers would be like if Jobs and Wozniak had failed.

Most of what people talk about when they compare computers is speed. Why? Because that is the only differentiating factor. That is the only thing we have to compare. The OSs are basically the same other than slight ease of use issues and software availbility. Apple must stay alive to offer competition in an industry where only boring geeks e.g. Bill Gates seem to rule. That is what separates Bill from Steve. Vision.

There are other fronts to computer technology. Speed and cost are not the only things that inventive people could use their talent for. I feel as though the computing experience has not changed remarkably since the first Macintosh in 1984. Not that I expect a remarkable shift often but come on its been almost 20 years!!

[mitchell_pgh]

Whenever I see a PC tech speck vs. Mac tech speck and a final total of how much a person would be saving I die a little more inside. Part for part a PC is a better deal but when you start looking at total cost of ownership, things start to change. If you could ekk out another six to ten months with your Mac, you basically equalized any savings you would have had with the PC. I still see orig. G3 towers doing production level work in design firms. I doubt that you see many P2 400 doing that...

I also assume that you have pieced your PC together... Good luck making everything work well together.

I always buy a base model Mac and throw on all the bells and whistles after market. (Hard Drives, RAM, Monitors, etc. are all cross platform)

Why not just get the 2x 1GHz system... The speed decrease would be minimal (unless you are doing Photoshop filters all day long).

[Phil Quinney]

Hey All,

Just thought I would let you know the advert is for mastercard.

As for the discussion, I spend hours and hours fixing Windows PC's for friends and colleagues. There is nothing better than to come home to a Mac which I switch on and it works first time. No ifs, not buts. Just reliability.

Just my thoughts.

Phil.

[HackerJax]

Originally posted by McDriver:


Interesting, do you consider the xp to be stable? There are many reports on how Mac networks require less support than win networks but the reports I have read mainly referred to win2k and 98. As for the Mac experience being priceless is just one factor, there are many "older� macs still running and being kept much longer then the pc systems. I mean longevity can be a factor to consider when we discuss price/performance issues. As a Mac diehard I still find it hard to defend my position concerning the hardware.

You know why you hear that Mac networks require less support? There aren't any mac networks out there, that is why. I've worked for 4 ISPs and done LAN Services in more than a few large companies. You won't find a mac network. You might luck out and find one at a school somewhere, but you won't find it in a large bussiness.

That might change as time goes on. Apple appears to be taking the enterprise seriously finally and OS X seems like it would be a fine OS for daily bussiness. Maybe down the road we'll be able to actually compare the support issues between the two, but right now you really can't, because no one barely networks macs together for anything serious.

-=Jax=-

[Cipher13]

Originally posted by HackerJax:


You know why you hear that Mac networks require less support? There aren't any mac networks out there, that is why. I've worked for 4 ISPs and done LAN Services in more than a few large companies. You won't find a mac network. You might luck out and find one at a school somewhere, but you won't find it in a large bussiness.

That might change as time goes on. Apple appears to be taking the enterprise seriously finally and OS X seems like it would be a fine OS for daily bussiness. Maybe down the road we'll be able to actually compare the support issues between the two, but right now you really can't, because no one barely networks macs together for anything serious.

-=Jax=-

That's so not true...

Our uni network includes a large number of Macs.

Print and design businesses (large ones) often do.

The network I admin has roughly 500 Macs... probably more.

The systems run in conjunction with Novell (shame about that part).

[McDriver]

Originally posted by Cipher13:


That's so not true...

Our uni network includes a large number of Macs.

Print and design businesses (large ones) often do.

The network I admin has roughly 500 Macs... probably more.

The systems run in conjunction with Novell (shame about that part).

I read somwhere on one of the many macsites on the net that Microsoft themselves have one techie per 36 pc:s and one guy for 125 macs in the MacBusines dev department

My personal solution to the dilemma is to have one of each (pc mac) Pc for gaming,divxmovies and to get into some
sites like my bank and some online game stuff, and the mac for the rest of my various doings. Mail, home finance, calenders, music,photos, scanning etc. So for me there is no problems. But the question is when you try to persuade users to move from pc to mac, it always ends up with the price issue. To clarify myself I am talking of homeusers here nothing else. For many people the MHZ/$ is a real issue And don't underestimate the power of games

[Chun Hsu]

I don't think this kind of comparison is entirely fair. You are comparing pretty much the top-of-the-line Mac with a somewhat average PC. It's always true that there is a huge premium for the fastest PC of any make. The price differential is not quite as bad when you look at the iMac's, iBook, or Powerbook in the middle of the pack. Granted, I would agree that what you are comparing may be of equivalent performance.

I assume you realize that there are real switchers out there like me who have decided to ditch Windows in favor of OSX. I had two Windows boxes, a Windows 98 computer for games and a Windows NT 4 computer for everything else. I used KVM switch to toggle between the two. I had been struggling with the thought of upgrading to Windows XP and its idiotic registration requirement. Finally, I came to the realization that I wasn't saving much money at all building my own Windows PC. The only people who need really needed fast PC's are gamers. Most people, like me, don't have the time to twiddle with drivers and tweak their PC's all of the time. What I really need is solid hardware and software. When I built my own PC's, I ended up paying more for better components anyway, so the total hardware cost kept creeping up. When I scrimped on the hardware, I consistently ended up with a buggy system.

Based on your comparison, the Mac is bound to lose. It's too expensive at the top. My point is that you could be pretty darn happy and productive with a $2700 PowerMac. Switching to a Powerbook was one of my best timeservers yet. I finally retired my NT box last week, and I don't miss it for a second.

Just my 2 cents.

[solitere]

BlueLine Extreme Gamer Athlon
AMD Athlon XP 2200+
Volcano9 Coolmod
512 Mb PC-2700 DDR
IBM Deskstar 120 Gb 7200 rpm
GeForce 4 Ti4400 128 Mb DDR DVI TV-out
16x/40x DVD Slot in
DVD-R-RW Pioneer 104
SoundBlaster Audigy! 5.1 DD
ASUS A7V333-Raid
SureCom 10/100 Mbit
TH-101 Miditower ATX 300W
Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Logitech Pilot Mouse Optical
Creative Inspire 5300 5.1 Speakers
19" Huyndai Q910 (1600x1200/85Hz) Total cost ~ $2470 (including tax)
No software or OS included

So how to defend yourself? I have ran out of arguments! [/B]

You could add these items to make the comperision more realistic;

+ WinXP proffessional: � 240 Euro
+ Gigabit Network Card � 250 Euro
+ Firewire Card � 40 euro
+ Dual Athlon CPU:s � 200 ?
+ iApps Software � 80 euro

+ The mirrored doors powermacs have a Powersupply that provides over 700 watts of juice. You could list the price to a simular box to that also..

and by the way "MS Internet Keyboard sucks" plus you cant run 10.2 on the PC.

[Scotttheking]

Originally posted by solitere:
+ The mirrored doors powermacs have a Powersupply that provides over 700 watts of juice. You could list the price to a simular box to that also..

They do not.
They are 430 or something close to that.

[eddiecatflap]

raskol

.. i agree 100%

..why buy a pc when you can buy a mac?

..why buy a ford when you can buy a mereces?

..why buy a sanyo when you can buy a bang & olufsen ?

..if you can afford it , what's the big deal ?

...you get what you pay for .

..simple as that.

[Spliffdaddy]

If you got what you paid for - this discussion wouldn't exist.

[gadster]

Don't waste your time, Mcdriver. It's like the the old saying... Don't try and teach a pig to sing. Pigs don't sing, they just grunt. All you end up doing is frustrating yourself and annoying the pig.

[anthology123]

Hard to tell if the new Macs last longer, but the old Macs sure do. I have a IIci, 6100, Powerbook 3400, 2400, and they are all going strong (I also have a G4 Tower). The IIci can even do internet, a little slow, but can still do it. Every PC I have touched from that time period (circa 1990) is either rusting in a garage or tossed, they are useless, which is amazing for a computer. Maybe that is less the point now, since PCs are so much more equipped, but will the parts last that long? Cheaper PCs these days seem to equal cheaper components, unless you BTO.

[Zimmerman]

I feel it very very very important to note that the quality of Apple's cases is much higher than your Anatec $90 special (E100). You really have to dig to find a case quite the quality of these and it won't be cheap. I'd estimate a comparible case (quality wise) would run you nearly $200-$250

[McDriver]

Originally posted by Zimmerman:
I feel it very very very important to note that the quality of Apple's cases is much higher than your Anatec $90 special (E100). You really have to dig to find a case quite the quality of these and it won't be cheap. I'd estimate a comparible case (quality wise) would run you nearly $200-$250

I am not arguing the quality of the Mac hardware, it's excellent most of the time. Except for the ethrnetcard issue some model(s) back, if u heard about it, and the fan noise in the new quicksilver due to the motherboard and the so slow burners Apple install.
Try and talk to some of your friends who is going to buy a new computer fore HOME use and take a look what you get for your money. Then try and convince the diehard pc fanatic to buy a new Mac for the doubble price just to enjoy the experience of Mac osx
It can't be done, ask me I have tried. But maybee I am a too fanatic Macuser
who is considered a bit eeeh.. weird?