[Curiosity]

I just decided to try Firefox 3 on my Mac, and it was crashing every time. The crash report mentioned several problems caused by Shapeshifter. I excluded Firefox 3 from being themed by Shapeshifter, and now it works. Why does that happen with Firefox 3, but not with previous versions of Firefox?

[Randman]

What version of OS X are you on?

[wataru]

Probably because Firefox 3 contains more native Aqua controls and paints to the screen with more modern technologies.

But Shapeshifter and similar haxies are likely to screw up just about anything. If you don't want that happening, stop using haxies.

[mduell]

Haxies break other applications... news at 11.

[Curiosity]

Shapeshifter screws up only Firefox 3. I do not have to exclude any other application. I am using Tiger, version 10.4.11.

[wataru]

Originally Posted by Curiosity 

Shapeshifter screws up only Firefox 3. I do not have to exclude any other application. I am using Tiger, version 10.4.11.

"Only Firefox 3" of apps that you happen to have. I'm sure there are plenty more out there.

Let me reiterate: This is Shapeshifter's problem, not Firefox's.

[Eovaai]

You know, there are a lot of knee-jerk comments trashing Unsanity products, but I can certainly verify that they do not "screw up just anything", having used both Shapeshifter and Fruitmenu for many, many years. I can say, also, after using many applications, Firefox 3 is the only one where I have found there to be a significant problem. I'm not sure who's responsibility it is to do the bugfix--Mozilla claims that it is Unsanity's, which is fine--but I believe the only major "screw up" that has been verified regarding haxies is a problem updating from 10.4 to 10.5 when using an older version of Unsanity's APE. A screw-up to be sure, but it doesn't mean that all of their products creates problems by any means.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Eovaai 

the only major "screw up" that has been verified regarding haxies is a problem updating from 10.4 to 10.5 when using THE THEN-CURRENT version of Unsanity's APE. A screw-up to be sure, and unfortunately it means that all of their products create problems by definition.

Fixed that.

The 10.5 update problem (which, btw, affected TENS of thousands of users, since the damn APE was installed for completely inexplicable reasons as part of every Logitech mouse driver) was only the worst ****-up of many - it kept breaking versions of iTunes, for example, and there were a bunch of other cases.

Please do a forum search for extensive discussion of why this is true, and why Unsanity's APE is of the devil, and by definition BREAKS the system (it wouldn't work if it didn't).

[Eovaai]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Fixed that.

The 10.5 update problem (which, btw, affected TENS of thousands of users, since the damn APE was installed for completely inexplicable reasons as part of every Logitech mouse driver) was only the worst ****-up of many - it kept breaking versions of iTunes, for example, and there were a bunch of other cases.

Please do a forum search for extensive discussion of why this is true, and why Unsanity's APE is of the devil, and by definition BREAKS the system (it wouldn't work if it didn't).

I've done plenty of forum searches, and this is an example of what I mean. It was not at all the current version of APE, but a 16-month old version that caused the update crash--there's a long discussion of this on Unsanity's web site (which I'm sure you won't believe) but also a large number of other places. I'm not excusing that--or Logitech's use of APE--but you should get your information right instead of snarkily "correcting" me. I'm not sure that problems with some version of itunes counts as a MAJOR screw-up, and I and many other people have used their products with no trouble at all 'til now.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Fixed that.

The 10.5 update problem (which, btw, affected TENS of thousands of users, since the damn APE was installed for completely inexplicable reasons as part of every Logitech mouse driver) was only the worst ****-up of many - it kept breaking versions of iTunes, for example, and there were a bunch of other cases.

Please do a forum search for extensive discussion of why this is true, and why Unsanity's APE is of the devil, and by definition BREAKS the system (it wouldn't work if it didn't).

It wasn't the current version, and you have a strange definition of "breaks."

[analogika]

I suppose, but using undocumented hacks to hook into system functionality in ways never intended to exist, to do things that aren't supposed to happen is arguably "breaking" the system, in a manner of speaking.

[P]

The version of APE that broke on Leopard was 2.01 - indeed a very old version at the time. Unfortunately, it was the version used by the latest version of the Logitech drivers available at the time. Blame Logitech, not Unsanity.

In this case I'm more inclined to blaming Unsanity, though. Since Firefox has independent themes, it should always be excluded by Shapeshifter.

[Eovaai]

Originally Posted by P 

In this case I'm more inclined to blaming Unsanity, though. Since Firefox has independent themes, it should always be excluded by Shapeshifter.

Yeah...but themed versions of Firefox have worked fine under Shapeshifter before--I've run themed Firefox with Shapeshifter from point-something-or-other through the final version of FF2 with no problem--and excluding it results in an ugly, mish-mash interface. I'm assuming that it's because unlike previous versions, FF3 uses native mac resources that Shapeshifter is already using. Not sure it's Unsanity's "fault", exactly, but I wish they would make a statement about it and tell people whether or not they are able or willing to patch it.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by P 

The version of APE that broke on Leopard was 2.01 - indeed a very old version at the time. Unfortunately, it was the version used by the latest version of the Logitech drivers available at the time. Blame Logitech, not Unsanity.

Oh, blame Unsanity. How does it take 6 years of being in the business of making hacks that are guaranteed to break with new OS versions before you finally think of adding some basic

Code:
if(OS is the version we're designed for) {
    DoWhatever();
} else {
    BailOut();
}

logic to the thing? That bug shouldn't have been in version 1.0, let alone 2.0.1.

Anyway, yeah, I've had enough weird bug reports from people who used these hacks and blamed the resulting weird effects in my app on me to know that if you want a stable system, you don't use hacks.

[Eovaai]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Oh, blame Unsanity. How does it take 6 years of being in the business of making hacks that are guaranteed to break with new OS versions before you finally think of adding some basic logic to the thing? That bug shouldn't have been in version 1.0, let alone 2.0.1.

Since Pacifist has saved my ass a couple of times, I hesitate to argue. There's a long discussion of the update thing at unsanity.org talking about the reasons the state checks didn't work--maybe they should have implemented them differently than they did, but it's not like they never thought of it. For the record, I've used Pacifist and a million other things with Shapeshifter running and never had any trouble. Anyway, I don't mean to be the biggest apologist for Unsanity. I think if you're the kind of person who is going to play with your system, there's always going to be a chance of bugs, but (logitech thing aside), I've run into a lot buggier software than Unsanity's.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Anyway, yeah, I've had enough weird bug reports from people who used these hacks and blamed the resulting weird effects in my app on me to know that if you want a stable system, you don't use hacks.

And I've been supporting people with Macs long enough to know that they're buggy, unstable pieces of crap.

Or, y'know, maybe it's just that the only people who would contact you for help are the minority who have problems.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Eovaai 

I think if you're the kind of person who is going to play with your system, there's always going to be a chance of bugs, but (logitech thing aside), I've run into a lot buggier software than Unsanity's.

The thing is, you don't know if that other software was actually buggy or not, because it's perceived bugginess could have just been induced by the fact that you have Unsanity software installed.

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

And I've been supporting people with Macs long enough to know that they're buggy, unstable pieces of crap.

Or, y'know, maybe it's just that the only people who would contact you for help are the minority who have problems.

It used to be that there were a few of those haxies that would screw it up pretty damn near 100% of the time (I think Menu Master was one of them, not sure anymore). I used to keep getting e-mails from people asking me when I was going to "fix" this "problem". Answer: I'm not - it's not my responsibility what third parties are doing to screw up my code without my permission. Apple agrees.

Anyway, I don't want to have this discussion again, because it's tiring and never goes anywhere. If you like to patch every piece of code the OS runs and make your system as stable as a cigarette smoker on the Hindenburg, then be my guest, but I don't understand why you don't just go back to OS 9 and be done with it.

[Eovaai]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

The thing is, you don't know if that other software was actually buggy or not, because it's perceived bugginess could have just been induced by the fact that you have Unsanity software installed.

Bleah, the old "let's-not-waste-time-talking-shall-we?-while-I stick-in-the-knife-for-the-last-word!!"

On the off-chance that was meant seriously, I must point out that I have removed APE every time I was looking for an application bug, and it never made any difference. I have never had any system instability at all, and have used OS X since 10.0 and Fruitmenu and Shapeshifter pretty much from their inception. I have also fussed with my system in a variety of geeky and non-recommended ways, and done things that should have caused trouble with APE if it was going to happen.

(sigh) Never mind...I'm not saying that people other than myself haven't had some problems, but it seems pretty hyperbolic to say that it puts you on the knife's edge.

[P]

IM (admittedly limited) E, it boils down to this: When there is a conflict between APE and an application, then in 5% of the cases it is an APE bug, in 5% of the cases it is an app bug, and in the remaining 90% of the cases it is the app relying on an undocumented behavior that APE has changed. In the case of FF3 above, I'm almost certain that that is the case. I have found that it makes absolutely no sense to blame either party in those cases. Disable APE for that app, file a bug with Unsanity if you feel like it and move on.