[dcmacdaddy]

So, I saw this quote on the BBC website from Ismail Haniya, the head of the political wing of Hamas and the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority.

He said the Israeli push was "a desperate effort to undermine the Palestinian government under the pretext of a search for the missing soldier".

Mr Haniya said the Israeli offensive was a 'crime against humanity'

The Israeli offensive began largely in southern Gaza in a bid to free Cpl Gilad Shalit after he was captured by militants.

All I have to say is that the Palestinian government is undermining its own legitimacy by not gaining possession of the soldier from whatever group captured him and detaining him as a POW until negotiations can be made with Israel for his release. If they want to be treated like a legitimate government they need to ACT like a legitimate government. Hamas, the freedom-fighting terrorist organization is now, for better or worse, an elected political organization. The sooner they start acting like politicians and less like mercenaries the better off they will be.

Had the PA obtained the soldier, put him in a detention camp, treated him like a POW and made all this known, they would be in a MUCH better position to bargain for the release of Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails. And had they done such actions, I think a majority of groups would have supported their claim for a prisoner swap. Instead, the Hamas political organization let their wing of mercenaries decide how this issue was to be handled and now we have Israeli troops back in northern Gaza because the legally elected Hamas groups does not, more likely cannot, act like a political organization. I think this incident shows that any legitimacy they might have had is gone down the sh!tter now that they can't even control their own military factions.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Had the PA obtained the soldier, put him in a detention camp, treated him like a POW and made all this known, they would be in a MUCH better position to bargain for the release of Palestinian prisoners from Israeli jails. And had they done such actions, I think a majority of groups would have supported their claim for a prisoner swap.

I doubt that that would be an effective way to go about it. The second that Israel would know where the then detented soldier is, it would decide to storm and besiege the camp or prison, until those inside would be forced to release him or die of hunger or thirst.

Taliesin

[von Wrangell]

That's a bad idea for a couple of reasons:

1. If Hamas had done that (officially) that would have meant that Israel would take the same actions as now.

2. They would have stormed whatever area the soldier would have been held in and released him.

3. Instead of kidnapping the democratically elected leaders of Palestine Israel would simply have killed them.

And the list goes on.

You are working on the assumption that Israel is a civilised state that would behave in a civilised manner. Current events show that assumption to be wrong. They are simply a calculating menace. As long as they keep this low intensity war and terror going against the Palestinian population no one in the West will punish them. And that is what they have been doing for the last few decades.

Sonic booming, shelling areas close to civilian living areas (with no target in mind), destroying civilian infrastructure such as electric generators, bridges, universities and hindering goods such as medicine and food is nothing but terrorism and collateral punishment.

[Doofy]

Mr Haniya said the Israeli offensive was a 'crime against humanity'

Nice ploy to appeal to the lefties.

However, for it to be a crime against humanity you must first prove yourself to actually be part of humanity, Mr Haniya.

[von Wrangell]

The Palestinian population aren't a "part of humanity"?

The 5 year old kids who have damaged hearing and suffer from post-traumatic stress disorders due to constant sonic booms and shelling from Israel aren't a part of humanity?

Those at the Palestinian hospitals (women and children mostly) who will start dying in the next few days because of Israeli blockades and destruction of the generators aren't a part of humanity?

Thanks for proving my point about Zionists and their supporters.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The Palestinian population aren't a "part of humanity"?

The 5 year old kids who have damaged hearing and suffer from post-traumatic stress disorders due to constant sonic booms and shelling from Israel aren't a part of humanity?

Then those kids need to tell it's terrorists leaders to STOP. The blame is on them for attacking Israel

Those at the Palestinian hospitals (women and children mostly) who will start dying in the next few days because of Israeli blockades and destruction of the generators aren't a part of humanity?

Then those hospitals need to tell it's terrorists leaders to STOP. The blame is on them for attacking Israel. ALso they need to tell them to STOP using Hospitals and such to hide out in.

Thanks for proving my point about Zionists and their supporters.

You did nothing buy spin and attempt to get crocodile tears.

If the Palestinian people suffer right now, it's because THEIR government THEY elected doesn't care about it's OWN people. Their "Plight" to them is more important.

If HAMAS cared about it's people, THEY would do something to stop it.

Your spin has just been despun.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The Palestinian population aren't a "part of humanity"?

The 5 year old kids who have damaged hearing and suffer from post-traumatic stress disorders due to constant sonic booms and shelling from Israel aren't a part of humanity?

Those at the Palestinian hospitals (women and children mostly) who will start dying in the next few days because of Israeli blockades and destruction of the generators aren't a part of humanity?

Dude, all that has to happen for peace to break out in the ME is for everyone to stop hostilities. It's real easy. Since we started with Israel last time, Palestine can start this time.

But you know as well as I do that it ain't going to happen. Too many people in Palestine hold the same views as Iran's president.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Too many people in Palestine hold the same views as Iran's president.

AND that is why little kids suffer. That is why little kids get blown up.

It stems from the hatred spread by poisonous belief system that Jews are evil and that Israel must be destroyed.

And this is ALSO why this is on-going. Until this thought process stops, nothing will change. Because Israel isn't going anywhere, and the haters are gonna keep hating them.

[PacHead]

It's about time that palestinians got the war they seek.

War is good in this case, let them fight, I want to see many dead terrorists. I like how the palestinians cry to the international community and complain, good comedy. The nerve of Israel to defend itself. I've been hoping on war for that region for a long time, it's the only solution when dealing with islamic terrorists and that applies to places other than palestine also.

[Sky Captain]

If the Palestinians wanted a real war, every able bodied man would take up arms and cross the border.
Instead it's a mass of rablerousers. And they're supported by Hamas.
Hamas is making it very hard on the ordinary Palestinian.
Until Gaza gets a real government that wants a peacful solution, these terrorists will still have to be delt with by force.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The Palestinian population aren't a "part of humanity"?

The 5 year old kids who have damaged hearing and suffer from post-traumatic stress disorders due to constant sonic booms and shelling from Israel aren't a part of humanity?

Why? Are the kids now having trouble hearing where to transport the ordinance strapped to their bodies?

Stop attacking Israel and they'll stop attacking you, it's not that difficult to understand.


As a bit of a side note, how would Brits feel if Sinn Fein won a majority in Ireland? I know that they aren't as violent as Hamas, but how much of a "pucker factor" would that create in the rest of the UK?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Why? Are the kids now having trouble hearing where to transport the ordinance strapped to their bodies?

Stop attacking Israel and they'll stop attacking you, it's not that difficult to understand.

No they are losing their hearing (torn tympanic membranes) because Israel is sonic booming Gaza every 2-4 hours. It's especially common for kids who wear hearing aids (don't know if that's the term in English).

And then you guys need to realise that collective punishment is against international law. (yeah, I know you hate international laws when it suits you and I know you love collective punishment when it's "the other side" that is suffering but it doesn't matter. Israel has signed those laws so they are bound by them. )

As a bit of a side note, how would Brits feel if Sinn Fein won a majority in Ireland? I know that they aren't as violent as Hamas, but how much of a "pucker factor" would that create in the rest of the UK?

Democracy is terrible isn't it.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Democracy is terrible isn't it.

It is when a people elects idiot terrorists to lead them and then whine afterwards about the consequences. I am so glad that the pals are getting war.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

No they are losing their hearing (torn tympanic membranes) because Israel is sonic booming Gaza every 2-4 hours. It's especially common for kids who wear hearing aids (don't know if that's the term in English).

Hearing aids, LOL. Israel should stop targetting terrorists ! Think about the people with hearing aids, LOL.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

No they are losing their hearing (torn tympanic membranes) because Israel is sonic booming Gaza every 2-4 hours. It's especially common for kids who wear hearing aids (don't know if that's the term in English).

And then you guys need to realise that collective punishment is against international law. (yeah, I know you hate international laws when it suits you and I know you love collective punishment when it's "the other side" that is suffering but it doesn't matter. Israel has signed those laws so they are bound by them. )


Democracy is terrible isn't it.

Democracy is fine, but don't be surprised when your neighbors kick your ass when you elect a known terrorist organization to office.

International law is a joke, but getting your c**k and balls handed to you by another country (Israel), for being a dumbass ("Palestine"), is very real.



They gonna have to teach the kids sign language so they can understand the suicide-bombing instructions? Maybe they can just use maps and color code everything.


AGAIN, stop attacking Israel and they'll stop attacking you.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

D
They gonna have to teach the kids sign language so they can understand the suicide-bombing instructions? Maybe they can just use maps and color code everything.

So now all Palestinian kids are terrorists? Majority of them?

MacNStein, you are more intelligent than that. I know why you hate Palestinians but don't let your hatred of terrorists blind you so much that you are willing to let innocent people suffer. Because then you are exactly the same as the person who caused you the suffering you feel.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So now all Palestinian kids are terrorists? Majority of them?

MacNStein, you are more intelligent than that. I know why you hate Palestinians but don't let your hatred of terrorists blind you so much that you are willing to let innocent people suffer. Because then you are exactly the same as the person who caused you the suffering you feel.

I used to think there was hope... that was until Palestine elected Hamas. Those "innocent" people elected those evil bastards to office, and there's no excuse for it.

Now, I'm at war, and this won't go away until that war is won. If they value the lives of their children, the Palestinians will move. If not, they'll die, and that's the unfortunate price they'll pay.

[von Wrangell]

Here's more for you guys to wank over.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...607450,00.html

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I used to think there was hope... that was until Palestine elected Hamas. Those "innocent" people elected those evil bastards to office, and there's no excuse for it.

The kids voted Hamas into power? And don't you realise how close you are to those you hate in thinking? You are showing exactly the same thought process as they are.

Now, I'm at war, and this won't go away until that war is won. If they value the lives of their children, the Palestinians will move. If not, they'll die, and that's the unfortunate price they'll pay.

So you are proposing ethnic cleansing now?

Seriously MacNStein, you're better than this. We'd our disagreements in the past but this is not the same Mac as before. You could once disagree without wanting innocent people harmed. Now you actively support that. Which makes you exactly the same as those who caused your suffering. Do you want to be like them?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

The kids voted Hamas into power? And don't you realise how close you are to those you hate in thinking? You are showing exactly the same thought process as they are.

So you are proposing ethnic cleansing now?

Seriously MacNStein, you're better than this. We'd our disagreements in the past but this is not the same Mac as before. You could once disagree without wanting innocent people harmed. Now you actively support that. Which makes you exactly the same as those who caused your suffering. Do you want to be like them?

No, I'm proposing war, massive bombing and military campaigns. When you destroy a city, you're not targetting the children, you're targetting everyone.

IF the Palestinians love their kids, they'll leave before that bombing starts, and not use their kids as shields... because it won't work this time. The gloves are off.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Stop attacking Israel and they'll stop attacking you, it's not that difficult to understand.

Plus One.

I notice von never directly responded to that. Even when you posted it twice.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

No, I'm proposing war, massive bombing and military campaigns. When you destroy a city, you're not targetting the children, you're targetting everyone.

IF the Palestinians love their kids, they'll leave before that bombing starts, and not use their kids as shields... because it won't work this time. The gloves are off.

You're no better than any terrorist.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

You're no better than any terrorist.

Neither am I, I want to be worse, can I ?
Terrorists deserve nothing but terror in return. When the left starts accusing people of being 'no better than the terrorists', that's when you know you're on the right track.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Troll

You're no better than any terrorist.

Whatever. You're obviously too limited to understand the difference, and I don't have time to provide proper instruction.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

You're obviously too limited to understand the difference, and I don't have time to provide proper instruction.

A "massive bombing campaign targetting everyone" is terrorism and a war crime. There is no difference between what you're suggesting doing and what Palestinian suicide bombers do. None at all.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

A "massive bombing campaign targetting everyone" is terrorism and a war crime.

No it's not, it's called war, fully legit. The government of the palestinians is responsible for the well being of the palestinians. If they want to die, then that's what they should get.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by PacHead

No it's not, it's called war, fully legit.

Please back this up with some references to international law. Show me where in the rules of war, it's okay to target civilians.

You can't can you, because all you're really good at is spewing hate.

[Kevin]

Whoah targeting civilians? Or targeting terrorists purposely living in civilian areas because they are too big of a coward to play the game properly?

These people have no shame. They have no dignity.

[von Wrangell]

Sonic booming is only targetting civilians. Having the official policy of not allowing anyone in Gaza to sleep is a war crime and nothing less.

[Sky Captain]

And Hamas shelling Israel is a war crime.
As is terrorists and not regular soilders taking Israeli soilders hostage.

If they had ANY balls, they collect up their troops and march over the border armed to the teeth and take Israel. Instead they sneak over and take hostages.

[vmarks]

On Friday, numerous Kassams were launched into the western Negev, falling near several kibbutzim, including Sa’ad, Nahal Oz, Gevim and the southern development town of Netivot. The total number of Kassam rockets that hit Israel on Friday was 17, Army Radio reported.

Where is VonWrangell accusing the Palestinians launching the rockets into Israel of war crimes?

That's a pretty nice double standard you've got there.

[Sky Captain]

And the fella that mentioned INTERPOL,
They have no teeth.
They're the vestigal arm of the EU/UN.
They all but assisted in helping the Rawandan warlords take OUR supplies for the citizens.
We hated them worse than the warlords.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

On Friday, numerous Kassams were launched into the western Negev, falling near several kibbutzim, including Sa’ad, Nahal Oz, Gevim and the southern development town of Netivot. The total number of Kassam rockets that hit Israel on Friday was 17, Army Radio reported.

Where is VonWrangell accusing the Palestinians launching the rockets into Israel of war crimes?

That's a pretty nice double standard you've got there.

Was it their government that launched those Qassams? If not, I can't accuse the Palestinians of war crimes.

If the aim of the possible terrorists were simply innocent civilians they are guilty of terrorism and attempt to murder. I've continuosly said that and will say that again so maybe you will get it this time. I've already explained this several times for you but you are either so dense that you don't get it or you are simply violating the forum rules and continue to harass me. Which is it?

See, the difference is that I can say that "my side" does things that are unfair and unjust. I also admit that "my side" commits crimes.

That is something you will never do. You will continue to sit in the safety of the US supporting the apartheid state called Israel.

[vmarks]

You continue to sit in Iceland supporting the Palestinians who proudly proclaim they want nothing less than genocide. Yes, I mean the elected government.

It is Hamas that is launching these missiles.

Where's your condemnation again?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

And Hamas shelling Israel is a war crime.
As is terrorists and not regular soilders taking Israeli soilders hostage.

If they had ANY balls, they collect up their troops and march over the border armed to the teeth and take Israel. Instead they sneak over and take hostages.

Agreed. But that doesn't excuse Israel's actions. Israel doesn't care what the rest of the world thinks but there's another element here. Attacking the civilian population of Gaza is counter productive. Israelis should know as well as anyone that when you do this, you only harden resistance. The civilian population is now LESS likely to return the soldier and MORE likely to support violence against Israel. Dumb move by Israel to attack the electricity supply. They should have protected the civilian population.

[Wiskedjak]

I'm gonna have to side with the pro-Israeli crowd on this one. The Palestinians choose Hamas to represent them. Now they will have to deal with the consequences of that representation.

[von Wrangell]

[QUOTE=vmarks]You continue to sit in Iceland supporting the Palestinians who proudly proclaim they want nothing less than genocide. Yes, I mean the elected government.[quote]
Really? Show me where Hamas call for a genocide please.

It is Hamas that is launching these missiles.

Evidence of that please?

Where's your condemnation again?

I'm going to quote my former post:

Posted 1 hour ago:

If the aim of the possible terrorists were simply innocent civilians they are guilty of terrorism and attempt to murder. I've continuosly said that and will say that again so maybe you will get it this time. I've already explained this several times for you but you are either so dense that you don't get it or you are simply violating the forum rules and continue to harass me. Which is it?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I'm gonna have to side with the pro-Israeli crowd on this one. The Palestinians choose Hamas to represent them. Now they will have to deal with the consequences of that representation.

So it's OK to deliberately target and punish the whole Palestinian population?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So it's OK to deliberately target and punish the whole Palestinian population?

Yep.

[von Wrangell]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5161034.stm

What a surprise that Israel doesn't accept this offer........

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5161034.stm

What a surprise that Israel doesn't accept this offer........

Why should they ? Screw ceasefires. The palestinian chicken terrorists always want a ceasefire when the going gets tough, a ceasefire which the terrorists won't abide by anyhow. Israel should press on. Ceasefires, lol.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So it's OK to deliberately target and punish the whole Palestinian population?

I don't agree with Israel's tactics, and am not convinced that the Israeli government sheds any tears for Palestinian civilian deaths that result from those tactics, but as long as Palestinian militants, who target Israeli civilians, hide amongst the Palestinian civilian population, it's difficult to argue that Israel is targeting Palestinian civilians.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So it's OK to deliberately target and punish the whole Palestinian population?

Originally Posted by PacHead

Yep.

Correction:
I going to have to side with the non-genocidal pro-Israeli crowd on this one.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I don't agree with Israel's tactics, and am not convinced that the Israeli government sheds any tears for Palestinian civilian deaths that result from those tactics, but as long as Palestinian militants, who target Israeli civilians, hide amongst the Palestinian civilian population, it's difficult to argue that Israel is targeting Palestinian civilians.

So lets just take three examples.

1. Sonic booming Gaza. In what way is this targeting the terrorists/militants? And if it is in any way targeting the terrorists/militants is the supposed gain from this worth the harm this causes the civilian population?

2. Taking out the only electric generator in Gaza. In what way is this targeting the terrorists/militants? And if it is in any way targeting the terrorists/militants is the supposed gain from this worth the harm this causes the civilian population?

3. Stop imports of food and medicine to Gaza. In what way is this targeting the terrorists/militants? And if it is in any way targeting the terrorists/militants is the supposed gain from this worth the harm this causes the civilian population?


Would be nice to see vmarks answer this as well.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Correction:
I going to have to side with the non-genocidal pro-Israeli crowd on this one.

There are few left of those I'm afraid. Seems 80-90% of them on this board support either genocide or ethnic cleansing.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So lets just take three examples.

1. Sonic booming Gaza. In what way is this targeting the terrorists/militants? And if it is in any way targeting the terrorists/militants is the supposed gain from this worth the harm this causes the civilian population?

2. Taking out the only electric generator in Gaza. In what way is this targeting the terrorists/militants? And if it is in any way targeting the terrorists/militants is the supposed gain from this worth the harm this causes the civilian population?

3. Stop imports of food and medicine to Gaza. In what way is this targeting the terrorists/militants? And if it is in any way targeting the terrorists/militants is the supposed gain from this worth the harm this causes the civilian population?


Would be nice to see vmarks answer this as well.

As long as militants hide amongst the civilian population, it can be argued that the areas where civilians reside, and the infrastructure that supports those areas, are military targets. Power generators support militant power needs; food and medicine can support militant needs (should Palestine send food and medicine to the Israeli army if they need it?).

On the surface, the sonic boom tactics do indeed look bad, though I admit to not knowing much about this tactic and it's consequences.

Is Israel using the presence of militants amongst civilians as an excuse to target civilians? Possibly. If Palestine wants to prove that point, they should stop militants from hiding amongst civilians.

[PacHead]

Israeli leader rejects Palestinian truce.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060708/...l_palestinians

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

As long as militants hide amongst the civilian population, it can be argued that the areas where civilians reside, and the infrastructure that supports those areas, are military targets. Power generators support militant power needs; food and medicine can support militant needs (should Palestine send food and medicine to the Israeli army if they need it?).

No, it cannot. It's disproportional use of force.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/29/isrlpa13662.htm

On the surface, the sonic boom tactics do indeed look bad, though I admit to not knowing much about this tactic and it's consequences.

A sonic boom causes a sound that is about 213dB. That's just between 1ton of T.N.T. and space shuttle launch exhaust. As for the effects read the following.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...607450,00.html

Just to highlight one part of it:

The military was forced to apologise after one sonic boom was unintentionally heard hundreds of kilometres inside Israel last week. Maariv newspaper described it as sounding "like a heavy bombardment. The noise that shook the Israeli skies was frightening. Thousands of citizens leapt in panic from their beds, and many of them placed worried calls to the police and the fire department. The Tel Aviv and central district police switchboards crashed."

Note the date of the article. The last few days the frequency has increased to one sonic boom every 1-4 hours. All day.

These are obvious warcrimes and Israel can't forver hide behind the fact that some of the people they are fighting against are cowards.

More:

As Patrick O'Connor has pointed out, Olmert told his cabinet last Sunday that he wanted "no one to be able to sleep tonight in Gaza."

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/07/07/gaza/

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I don't agree with Israel's tactics, and am not convinced that the Israeli government sheds any tears for Palestinian civilian deaths that result from those tactics, but as long as Palestinian militants, who target Israeli civilians, hide amongst the Palestinian civilian population, it's difficult to argue that Israel is targeting Palestinian civilians.

Hamas calls for genocide in their charter and in their declarations that they do not accept Israel as a state, but only allow for one state, not a two-state solution. We all know this means genocide. The PA, whether under Fatah or under Hamas agrees on pushing the Jews to their deaths in the sea.

Hamas is launching the missiles at Israel.

The Qassam rocket is a simple homemade steel rocket filled with explosives, developed by the Palestinian militant organization Hamas. Three models have been used, all of which lack a guidance system.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

And lastly, to address Wiskedjak's point, Israel as a government apologizes and pays reparations to innocents who get harmed or killed.

When Palestinians set off mines on the beach in Gaza, Israel took in the wounded to the hospital in Tel-Aviv. Israel cares for non-Israeli wounded.

Israel tries and convicts the soldiers who act wrongly, for example, using live fire when there is no mortal danger.

By way of comparison, the Palestinian government (Fatah or Hamas) has never apologized, never paid the survivors, never cared for Israeli wounded, and treats those who act wrongly as heroes.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

As long as militants hide amongst the civilian population, it can be argued that the areas where civilians reside, and the infrastructure that supports those areas, are military targets. Power generators support militant power needs; food and medicine can support militant needs (should Palestine send food and medicine to the Israeli army if they need it?).

That's the same argument turned around that Palestinians and their supporters use for attacking any Israeli- (almost) all Israelis served in the army at some point, therefore it must be a legitimate military attack to attack them wherever they may be, no matter how young or old.

What is different is that Palestinian children are taught that they should be martyrs, that it is a proud thing to be a human shield or bomber. Culture of death.

I linked to it earlier.