Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Detrius · Jun 8, 2002, 03:09 PM

I'm in the mood to troll. Why would someone want to use a Mac? Is it REALLY better than the alternative? What do you think?

This is a mac vs. pc thread. (since it seems obvious that there really are PC trolls in the reading AND posting audience)

note that we are dealing with Mac OS 10.1 and current versions of Windows. (It isn't fair to bash something that's fixed in a later version: e.g. 10.0 not playing DVDs. It also isn't fair to bring unreleased software into the picture: 10.2 is a no-no).

[ 06-08-2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Detrius ]

OSX Abuser · Jun 8, 2002, 04:17 PM

Only Lemmings and Sheep use PC's

Just kidding for the most part about that

Detrius · Jun 8, 2002, 04:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by OSX Abuser:
Only Lemmings and Sheep use PC's

Just kidding for the most part about that

<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps people are blindly using the Macintosh... The group has always been referred to as a "cult following." If Windows XP or 2000 had been out when you were running System 7.1, would you have switched?? Isn't XP significantly better than 7.1? What about 7.5? what about 8? 8.5? 9? 10? 10.1?

I don't think 10.0 was better than XP. Why would 10.1 be?

Fluffy · Jun 8, 2002, 05:26 PM

Well OK.

I won't argue price, speed or software availability, because all of those are non-issues for me. I'd take more speed, better prices and more software if offered, but none of them are important enough to cause me to switch to a PC running Windows (Linux? Please).

The reason I use a Mac is the OS, and the hardware/OS interface. That's it, and that has always been it.

1. Peripheral support and integration: The Mac has always had (and continues to have) a solid advantage when it comes to peripherals of almost any kind... internal or external. The MacOS was designed from the ground up to seamlessly integrate additional components with the OS in a manner which does not require Hardware installation Wizards in the latest versions of Windows, or manual editing of hardware settings in earlier versions. Until about a year ago I spent most of my time on Windows, from 3.1 to 2000 (I've never used XP), and the integration simply is not there. I realize that now there will be ten PC users claiming never to have had problems in this area, but I simply do not care. I and everyone (EVERYONE) that I know that uses PCs have never had anything but problems with expansion. That is one reason I use the Mac.

2. Ease of use philosophy: The macintosh philosophy has always been to design the computer in such a way that the interface is easy to understand and use. The Mac interface encourages experimentation, allowing the placement and arbitrary reorganization of files and applications anywhere on the hard disk without any negative impact on the ability to run those applications or access those files. The Mac has always tried to give users the confidence to understand how to use the interface (whether Apple has always been successful is another discussion). Microsoft, on the other hand, does not seem to have a solid grasp on how to accomplish this task. The Windows interface reflects this, with the standard XP being an extreme example of this approach, with wizards for everything from moving a folder to emailing a picture. Windows seems to have been designed with expert users and programmers in mind, with endless add-ons to attempt to help users do tasks that they would never be able to accomplish themselves. The Mac is about making technology accessible, and allowing a user to actually USE it. The Windows approach is to keep the computer complex, but to give the user a virtual technician to guide them through the hard parts. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a night, etc.

3. OS simplicity: This realy only applies to MacOSs prior to 10, but I absolutely love being able to simply drag a System Folder to a disk and have it boot normally. I don't think I even remember the last time I installed the classic MacOS from a CD or disk, I just drag over a backup from another disk. I love having seven different systems on my hard disk and being able to boot from any of them on a whim. I appreciate the thought that went into the organization of the system folder (even if it did get a little too complex from about 8 onward).

4. The mouse: I am sure that with enough tweaking a PC mouse pointer can be calibrated to feel like an extension of my hand, but I've yet to see it. The standard PC mouse feels twitchy and numb at the same time, while the Mac mouse actually feels like it is connected to the pointer on the screen. For precise movements, there simply is no comparison, and this is important when drawing. I also appreciate that the mouse pointer vanishes when I use any other input device. Small things, maybe, but it is the attention to detail that matters, and MS simply doesn't have it.

5. Interface paradigm: Let's see, there is nothing that annoys me more on Windows than the non-spacial finder metaphor. When I put a file somewhere, by God it better STAY there. When I open a window, it had better be exactly the way I left it. No changes, EVER. Menu bars attached to windows results in wasted screen space as there are often three or four "file" menus visible at the same time, as well as confusion when a single application decides that it needs several windows open, each with its own duplicate menu items that often do not properly indicate their function. The interface design encourages large application windows, and the design of Windows applications seem to work best when maximized to full screen, discouraging multiple application use. I have never been comfortable using multiple applications simultaneously on Windows, because it just doesn't seem to work right. Drag and drop is inconsistent, copy and paste is inconsistent (dear God...), apps are not designed to be used in page mode (as opposed to landscape), etc.

6. OS under-the-hood design: The registry. Nothing more to say about that. The concept of opening multiple instances of applications instead of multiple documents inside an application. I don't know exactly why this one bugs me so much, but it does. Maybe it's the fact that when I open six documents on the mac, there is an obvious distinction between the application tools and the data. On Windows you get the exact same tools (and menus) in multiple document windows. Once again, poor use of space. And, of course, many applications do their own thing and open child windows inside a parent window, which pretty much requires that the parent window be set to full screen in order to do any work with multiple docs. Again, discouraging simultaneous multiple application use. I dislike the assignment of every document type to a single application. On my Mac I have thousands of .jpgs, .c, .h and .cpp files, and I have four image editors and two coding environments. Each of my files open in the correct application when double-clicked regardless of the fact that they have the same extension.

7. Windows is and has always been butt ugly. There just seems to be no concept of art at MS.

Well, there are a few examples of why I use a Mac instead of Windows. I realize that some of my points no longer apply to MacOS X, but having used every incarnation of X from DP3 -> 10.2, I can see that they are serious about regaining every one of the advantages I listed above.

Windows is a credible OS. It works. It does everything the MacOS does. But it doesn't to them as well, as elegantly or as quickly (from an interface standpoint). If you enjoy technology for technology's sake, then Windows and Linux are fine, I suppose. I have better things to do with my time.

No, I would not use XP over 7. XP simply isn't good enough.

[ 06-08-2002, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Fluffy ]

cpt kangarooski · Jun 8, 2002, 06:25 PM

Fluffy--
I pretty much agree with you. Which is why I don't like OS X -- I don't find that it lives up to the Macintosh name. This is particularly true with regards to your #2; OS X was designed to be Unix with a pretty GUI. A Macintosh would've been a good UI, with underpinnings chosen or designed so as to support and improve the UI. The technology shouldn't come first.

KellyHogan · Jun 8, 2002, 06:41 PM

Amazing. The poll suggest that:

-Mac hardware is better. Is that cosmetic or are we talking about the actual hardware? If it is the latter the pollsters must be as dumb as the guys who made the next bit of info happen...

-Most people polled use their Macs for 'web surfing'.

It makes no sense. Why not a cheap PeeCee for websurfing? Just click on browser, select website, surf. Don't bother with the rest of the OS because you use your computer for 'surfing' so why even bother spending hundreds of bucks more for a Mac to do slow and sluggish surfing?

Fluffy · Jun 8, 2002, 06:42 PM

I'm not all that fond of certain aspects of X myself. BUT, the difference between X and WinXP is that with X at least Apple has a decent interface to emulate, and users who haven't let them get away with as much as they might have wished. As we move forward we will see X and 9 begin to converge, but fortunately only to a point. Interface-wise 9 isn't all that great either, when compared to the elegance of 6 and 7. Unlike some, I do not like tabbed folders and the control strip, and I love application packages. What we really need is a re-designed file system, IMO.

Mac007 · Jun 8, 2002, 06:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
...SNIP...-Most people polled use their Macs for 'web surfing'.

It makes no sense. Why not a cheap PeeCee for websurfing? Just click on browser, select website, surf. Don't bother with the rest of the OS because you use your computer for 'surfing' so why even bother spending hundreds of bucks more for a Mac to do slow and sluggish surfing?<hr /></blockquote>Why, because I like the way the Mac surfs and the way the interface works. And as for speed it's just fine for me but then I have a cable modem. I've also tried both my brothers and sisters Windows systems by the way and I find them no faster or slower. Both have cable connections.

Kelly, your problem is you're taking a personal preference issue and making it a holy crusade. It's like saying those who prefer Coke to Pepsi are choosing an inferior drink.

To quote Billy Joel "You can speak your mind but not on my time!"

[ 06-08-2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Mac007 ]

Mr. Blur · Jun 8, 2002, 06:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
Amazing. The poll suggest that:

-Most people polled use their Macs for 'web surfing'.

It makes no sense. Why not a cheap PeeCee for websurfing? Just click on browser, select website, surf. Don't bother with the rest of the OS because you use your computer for 'surfing' so why even bother spending hundreds of bucks more for a Mac to do slow and sluggish surfing?<hr /></blockquote>it was not a single choice question, therefore your reasoning is flawed. virtually everyone surfs, but not all are web designers, video producers, musicians etc.....

KellyHogan · Jun 8, 2002, 07:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mac007:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
...SNIP...-Most people polled use their Macs for 'web surfing'.

It makes no sense. Why not a cheap PeeCee for websurfing? Just click on browser, select website, surf. Don't bother with the rest of the OS because you use your computer for 'surfing' so why even bother spending hundreds of bucks more for a Mac to do slow and sluggish surfing?<hr /></blockquote>Why, because I like the way the Mac surfs and the way the interface works. And as for speed it's just fine for me but then I have a cable modem. I've also tried both my brothers and sisters Windows systems by the way and I find them no faster or slower. Both have cable connections.

"<hr /></blockquote>Honestly.
<img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

You like the interface of what? Icons, file, folders and windows with three widgets? The browser? For Ef's sake. How sad and stupid a comment can you make? Every fricking 2D windowed interface is the same **** to anyone with half a rational brain regardless of a curve here or a round button there. Use a fricking skin or theme if you don't like the one you see.

And Windows is faster at any 'browsing' app no matter what. No matter what. There is no Mac that can outrun my simple little ****ty PeeCee at any cross-platform application. That means a lot to me because if I go back to using Premiere or Lightwave the Mac would not even be a choice. I could even make the example of how last year I had to manually paint over one thousand frames of video, one frame at a time because one of the crew was sitting in the background of what was supposed to be an empty room with only one actor. This task would have been impossible on OS 9 because of the amount of frames open in Photoshop. Everytime I tried it, no matter how much RAM I gave Photoshop, the machine crashed. Only Photoshop on Windows managed it. And if I attempt the same thing today on Photoshop 7 on OSX then again I would have a problem. After opening too many files the GUI slows down massively.

All this complaining about Windows' GUI is pathetic. At leat try to say the same crap about GUI's running on Linux. Oh, of course, people use Linux for work and not 'browsing' (a word meaning 'staring at the GUI' by the look of it). The same way the majority of the world's economy runs on Windows because a cute and slow GUI would be a distraction.

mrchin · Jun 8, 2002, 07:19 PM

Apple is in charge of making both the software and the hardware. This makes things work together more smoothly than PC who's hardware can be created by any one of dozens of manufacturers. Then, hopefully, you won't have problems with certain components.

People who own wintel machines, usually see their system as an appliance or something that they dread using. It's just to get a function done and that's it. On a Mac, you can integrate your computer into your lifestyle.

Apple innovates and is almost always in the forefront of incorporating new technologies in their systems. Look at Firewire. Just now, are the other guys including it. Sure your Gateway cost 799, but it comes without firewire and ethernet.

Unix based core. A worldwide community of open source genius, constantly finding newer ways of securing and improving the core of our OS. Apple is involved in working with new changes and adapts the best possible solutions to work with its hardware. In windows, you have Microsoft making everything and keeping a sloppy ship in doing so. They're not getting any input from anyone but themselves. Look how much they complained and refused to want to show their source code to the government. What kind of evolution is that going to give you? (If you say the Apple doesn't show you code either, then that's incorrect. The top layer of the system which is the GUI and other user interfaces is kept in Cupertino, but the core is still UNIX and OpenGL which is what really makes things work and that's open to anyone.)

One word. "iApps" Simple, easy to use programs that are the solutions for newbies who just want an easy way to enrich their families' lives to professionals. All this provided by Apple, Free with any new system. And pro versions for us professionals as well.

Aesthetics! Is a PC user proud to show off their machine? No. A mac adds to the look of your home.

A mac can connect wired and wirelessly to other mac networks as well as to PC networks. IT can even emulate the Win environment, just in case there's an app that you can't use on a mac. But almost any important business, development and creative app is available for both, and if not, something with equal functionality is. And this will be able to open the win document from the program you're trying to emulate.

Stop this speed war. 1 GHz, 2.2.. whatever. Compare intel processors to intel processors, not to PowerPCs. Ever heard of RISC and CISC? Yeah, simple instruction sets perform and complete more processes a lot faster than complex ones. So why has Intel been working on Itanium processors and all of the sudden using speeds less than half of their Peniums IVs? Maybe they see that Apple was onto something.

I could go on, but the Tyson fight start soon, and I gotta get some things done first.

KellyHogan · Jun 8, 2002, 07:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mrchin:


People who own wintel machines, usually see their system as an appliance or something that they dread using. It's just to get a function done and that's it. On a Mac, you can integrate your computer into your lifestyle.
<hr /></blockquote>I don't want to integrate ANY computer into my lifestyle. How sad. It's like those guys who collect stamps or watch trains.

MindFad · Jun 8, 2002, 07:24 PM

Fluffy · Jun 8, 2002, 07:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:

You like the interface of what? Icons, file, folders and windows with three widgets? The browser? For Ef's sake. How sad and stupid a comment can you make? Every fricking 2D windowed interface is the same **** to anyone with half a rational brain regardless of a curve here or a round button there. Use a fricking skin or theme if you don't like the one you see.<hr /></blockquote>No, every windowing system is not the same, as detailed above. A blind man may not understand color, but that doesn't mean the world is black and white. In the same way just because you don't have the ability to see beyond superficial similarities does not mean that the differences are not important.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The same way the majority of the world's economy runs on Windows because a cute and slow GUI would be a distraction.
<hr /></blockquote>No, it runs on Windows because the decision makers are poeple without passion or imagination, without a clue of what matters to users and how to make them productive; and as a result a mediocre standard is impressed onto business not because of superiority but because of conformity. They live in a world where a car has four wheels and an engine, a yard is a flat expanse of grass, and a block of marble is preferable to Michelangelo's David because there is more material present. If the world used Macs, the additional time spent resizing windows would more than be made up for in saved technical support and increased productivity for normal office workers.

mikemako · Jun 8, 2002, 08:08 PM

I own a very nice Athlon XP 2000+ that I like quite a lot. I also own a 533DP G4 PowerMac that I like quite a lot.

It is a really difficult question- which is better? I can't say.

I like the Mac more, but that doesn't make it better. Whenever I try to logically reason out why the Mac is superior I get stumped!
"Well, at least it's fast.. well not really."
"Well, at least it's stable, but more than WinXP? no."

In many (but certainly not all) ways, the OS X interface is nicer than Windows'- an easy example is the Login screen. When I login to OSX, the user picuture glides smoothly into place and asks for my password. In XP, the user pictures movement is jumpy and as I type my password the "dashes" in place of my letters are funky looking. They aren't quite round (like this: .....) and seem to have little fuzzies all over them. Strange, eh? and it only happens... sometimes.
As the computer logs me in my desktop picture appears, then disappears, then there's a flash, then I'm logged in. When the computer wants it to. In OS X, things are more predictable for me.
Other UI elements are not smooth, window edges are jagged, especially the media player in MSN Messanger.

iTunes is completely superior to every other music app I have seen or used. It is brilliant and simple.

On the other hand, Windows' UI has so many options, i love that Right Click Menu. quicklaunch in the toolbar is sweet. Kazaa and WinMX are wonderful if you like that kinda stuff, the Mac's equivalents are nowhere close. Internet Explorer 6 in Windows blows away all of OS X's beta (or the few Final Release) browsers. Outlook Express is a lot more robust and useful than OS X's Mail has been.

The problem of windows hiding behind the dock doesn't exsist in Windows. Everything snaps together sooo nice.

Although it is not Apple's fault, it is really nice to be able to freely buy software or download stuff from the net and not have to worry if it's Mac compatible.

and who said price doesn't matter? No offense to you, but money is a very important decision when weighing the positive and negative qualities of a product comparison!

In truth, I like my mac more. but the arguments I have read stating it is better than Windows seem to be based on hopeful opinions more than logical reasoning.

drjoe · Jun 8, 2002, 08:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
Amazing. The poll suggest that:

... ...

-Most people polled use their Macs for 'web surfing'.

It makes no sense. Why not a cheap PeeCee for websurfing? Just click on browser, select website, surf. Don't bother with the rest of the OS because you use your computer for 'surfing' so why even bother spending hundreds of bucks more for a Mac to do slow and sluggish surfing?<hr /></blockquote>KELLY, YOU make no sense. Do you have a separate confuser for every single thing that you do with it? No? I didn't think so.
I run a medical consulting practice with it AND
I do music editing with it AND
I surf the web with it AND
I spend time on MacNN forums with it answering the posts of folks like you. Sheesh!

msuper69 · Jun 8, 2002, 08:26 PM

It's not something that can be put into words. Kind of like trying to describe what it's like to use LSD. You either 'get it' or you don't. And you obviously don't.

Fluffy · Jun 8, 2002, 08:29 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mikemako:
the arguments I have read stating it is better than Windows seem to be based on hopeful opinions more than logical reasoning.<hr /></blockquote>I think that most people don't really give much thought to why they prefer the Mac, nor have they spent any time thinking about user interface issues as a whole, and so when the question is posed they can only respond with how the Mac feels or makes them feel. Interface by its very nature has a significant personal component that is difficult to quantify and cannot be ignored, but that is not to say that there is no logic to it.

Here are a few great entry-level volumes on the subject:

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0961392126/ref=ase_Tog/104-0036177-5282300" target="_blank">Visual explainations</a>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201379376/qid=1023582845/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-0036177-5282300" target="_blank">The Humane Interface</a>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0961392142/ref=pd_sim_books_1/104-0036177-5282300" target="_blank">Visual display of Quantitative Information</a>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0961392118/ref=pd_sim_books_1/104-0036177-5282300" target="_blank">Envisioning information</a>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672316498/ref=pd_sim_books_3/104-0036177-5282300" target="_blank">Inmates are running the Asylum</a>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201608421/ref=ase_TogA/104-0036177-5282300" target="_blank">Tog on Interface</a>

[ 06-08-2002, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Fluffy ]

Adam Betts · Jun 8, 2002, 09:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
I don't want to integrate ANY computer into my lifestyle. How sad. It's like those guys who collect stamps or watch trains.<hr /></blockquote>Ok what about this thread <a href="http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=45;t=005295" target="_blank">"Digital Hub"</a> that you posted a while ago?

How shame that you don't know what you are talking about.
<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/adambetts/MacNN/Roll-Eye-Med.gif" alt=" - " />

Seb G · Jun 8, 2002, 09:12 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't want to integrate ANY computer into my lifestyle. How sad. It's like those guys who collect stamps or watch trains.<hr /></blockquote>What's wrong with watching trains?

karbon · Jun 8, 2002, 09:21 PM

Three reasons why prefer Macs:

1. Consistent and natural user interface
2. It's an alternative to Windows (Linux is not even close to an alternative for me)
3. I get more work done on my Mac

theolein · Jun 8, 2002, 09:43 PM

My reasons for using Macs
1.Solid, reliable, good looking hardware.
2.A simple to use, beautiful GUI
3.Unix

However, if Linux had Quartz and Aqua and X11 window managers didn't generally look so goddamn awful I'd probably be using Linux on a PC.

CharlesS · Jun 8, 2002, 10:13 PM

Here's an example of why I love the Mac -

For about two weeks, I was on a trip in Australia. I took quite a few photos with my digital camera while down there. When I came back, I connected it to my Mac, transferred the photos to my hard drive using iPhoto, and then noticed that quite a few of the photos made excellent desktop pictures. So the other night I hit VersionTracker to do a search for programs that could cycle through a number of desktop pictures randomly. There turned out to be quite a few available, so without even thinking I downloaded several of them. When they were finished downloading, I ran each one of them, right off of the disk image, to see which I liked the most. I decided on one of the programs, so I dragged it to a folder on my hard drive, and then put the others in the Trash.

With Windows, I would have had to run an installer for each of those apps just to try them, and I would have had to run an uninstaller afterward, and who knows if the uninstaller would have removed everything that the installer put on the hard drive and in the Registry, or whether something would have been left behind? With the Mac, the programs were all kept in the tidy little disk image until I dragged one where I wanted it on the hard drive. Clean and simple.

CharlesS · Jun 8, 2002, 10:15 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
Amazing. The poll suggest that:

-Mac hardware is better. Is that cosmetic or are we talking about the actual hardware? If it is the latter the pollsters must be as dumb as the guys who made the next bit of info happen...

-Most people polled use their Macs for 'web surfing'.

It makes no sense. Why not a cheap PeeCee for websurfing? Just click on browser, select website, surf. Don't bother with the rest of the OS because you use your computer for 'surfing' so why even bother spending hundreds of bucks more for a Mac to do slow and sluggish surfing?<hr /></blockquote>Kelly, there's a simple reason for that - the poll is on a web site. It's not too easy to vote in the poll without doing a little web surfing, is it now? Ergo, nearly everyone that voted in that poll uses his/her Mac for web surfing.

And it's not like the options are mutually exclusive...

Charles

[ 06-08-2002, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: CharlesS ]

MacGorilla · Jun 8, 2002, 11:08 PM

I love the Mac..I love having X Windows there if I need it. I have a PC with a Big Monitor that I run QNX on

[ 06-08-2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: MacGorilla ]

unimacs · Jun 8, 2002, 11:44 PM

I don't you can say that Macs are better than PCs. Neither is the reverse true. There was a time when you could argue that the Mac had the better UI hands down, but that ended when 95 came out. Now it comes down to a matter of what you prefer. You can point to this or that and say "this is easier on a Mac" or "You can do X more efficiently on Windows" but in my book there is no clear winner. Certain people will prefer one over the other, depending on what's important to them and how they work.

Performance and Price have usually been seen as favoring the PC. Elegant hardware design has historically been a Mac specialty.

I use a PC all day at work. I'm also a software developer and my opinions are very much tied to that fact. Here's why I prefer a Mac:

1. They look great. I've got a cube and an iBook.
2. OS X and it's UNIX guts. A serious developers dream
3. iApps. Apple is making what people want to do with their computers easy
4. Microsoft's slice of the pie it too big, - not good for the industry
5. I like a menu bar.
6. More consistent keyboard shortcuts
7. Knowing that most PC users I've ever shown the iBook or Cube wants one.

There are other reasons, buy also I can list many reasons why someone wouldn't want to get a Mac.

Mac or PC is a personal choice. There are good reasons for going either way.

Detrius · Jun 8, 2002, 11:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
Amazing. The poll suggest that:

-Mac hardware is better. Is that cosmetic or are we talking about the actual hardware? If it is the latter the pollsters must be as dumb as the guys who made the next bit of info happen...

-Most people polled use their Macs for 'web surfing'.

It makes no sense. Why not a cheap PeeCee for websurfing? Just click on browser, select website, surf. Don't bother with the rest of the OS because you use your computer for 'surfing' so why even bother spending hundreds of bucks more for a Mac to do slow and sluggish surfing?<hr /></blockquote>You know, you are really good at demonstrating your lack of intelligence. However, I did read about your digital hub setup in a different thread that someone here pointed to. You seem to have an intuitive clue about computers, but your posts show again and again that your abilities to create logical arguments are just lacking.

As most people (clearly not you) figured out, that question (and that question alone) allowed multiple selections, as the other questions had mutually exclusive answers. Thus, we see that the vast majority of people that read the MacNN bulletin boards use their Macs for web surfing. We can conclude the remaining people (who clearly do a bit of web surfing) use PC's for web surfing. Most of us (as indicated by the poll) find that we can do everything we need with our Macs. Thus, most of us have no need for a PC. So why would we pay the EXTRA money to buy a PC to use for simply surfing the web??

As a very wise man once said: "My momma always said that stupid is as stupid does." Instead of directly bashing you at this point, I'll just leave it at this.

Back on topic:

I am well aware of the fact that there are some people that just don't "get" why someone would pay extra for a Mac when a PC can "clearly" do everything that the Mac cando. I am also aware of the fact that these people are completely devoid of an intuitive sense about anything technical. I believe that PC's are primarily used for the sole reason that IT departments would be out of the job if they had used something that worked better (5 to 10 years ago). Windows isn't (wasn't) any better except that it required a significantly larger support department and that it could be argued (from a skewed perspective) that it was the best option.

We have an opinion here that states XP isn't any better than System 7. I would go along with this opinion. So why use Windows 95? It has Plug-n-Play... you never read anything about that on the Mac... maybe the Mac doesn't have it. The Mac is lacking one thing here that Windows has... Windows notices that there is unrecognized hardware and looks for the drivers while the Mac does not pop up a wizzard that does this (unless it's USB). The Mac does, however, do this behind the scenes. If Apple generally had their way, the drivers would already be installed (in fact they are in Mac OS X... and the users don't remove them). The survival of Windows is strictly a large conspiracy, not entirely pushed by Microsoft.

Ease of use (in my opinion) is an incredibly important feature. Yes, Windows is easy to use... but what if you have problems? You have to tinker with the minute details of the hardware and the operating system. With the Mac, it's a rather straightforward, uncomplicated procedure. In 9, you find the conflicting extensions. In X, oh wait... that doesn't happen in X.

KidRed · Jun 8, 2002, 11:55 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> KellyHogan:
Honestly.
<img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

You like the interface of what? Icons, file, folders and windows with three widgets? The browser? For Ef's sake. How sad and stupid a comment can you make? Every fricking 2D windowed interface is the same **** to anyone with half a rational brain regardless of a curve here or a round button there. Use a fricking skin or theme if you don't like the one you see.

And Windows is faster at any 'browsing' app no matter what. No matter what. There is no Mac that can outruo me because if I go back to using Premiere or Lightwave the Mac would not even be a choice. I could even make the example of how last year I had to manually paint over one thousand frames of video, one frame at a time because one of the crew was sitting in the background of what was supposed to be an empty room with only one actor. This task would have been impossible on OS 9 because of the amount of frames open in Photoshop. Everytime I tried it, no matter how much RAM I gave Photoshop, the machine crashed. Only Photoshop on Windows managed it. And if I attempt the same thing today on Photoshop 7 on OSX then again I would have a problem. After opening too many files the GUI slows down massively.

All this complaining about Windows' GUI is pathetic. At leat try to say the same crap about GUI's running on Linux. Oh, of course, people use Linux for work and not 'browsing' (a word meaning 'staring at the GUI' by the look of it). The same way the majority of the world's economy runs on Windows because a cute and slow GUI would be a distraction.<hr /></blockquote>THEN GO BACK TO YOUR PC-SENTRIC BRIGDE YOU ANNOYING, PATHETIC LITTLE MONGERING TROLL.

[edited because macnn can no longer quote correctly]

[ 06-08-2002, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: KidRed ]

mrtew · Jun 9, 2002, 12:08 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
-Most people polled use their Macs for 'web surfing'.
It makes no sense. Why not a cheap PeeCee for websurfing?<hr /></blockquote>I'd go so far as to guarantee that 100% of the Mac users that answered this internet poll use their Macs for 'web surfing'. The poll was ON THE 'WEB'!!!

I'd also guarantee that 100% of Mac users use their cars for 'driving'; by your reasoning they should buy the crappiest Yugo they can find, since all cars are built for 'driving'.

Kelly Hogan you are an idiot troll.

KellyHogan · Jun 9, 2002, 12:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KidRed:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> KellyHogan:
Honestly.
<img border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" title="" src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" />

You like the interface of what? Icons, file, folders and windows with three widgets? The browser? For Ef's sake. How sad and stupid a comment can you make? Every fricking 2D windowed interface is the same **** to anyone with half a rational brain regardless of a curve here or a round button there. Use a fricking skin or theme if you don't like the one you see.

And Windows is faster at any 'browsing' app no matter what. No matter what. There is no Mac that can outru > ****ty PeeCee at any cross-platform application. That means a lot to me because if I go back to using Premiere or Lightwave the Mac would not even be a choice. I could even make the example of how last year I had to manually paint over one thousand frames of video, one frame at a time because one of the crew was sitting in the background of what was supposed to be an empty room with only one actor. This task would have been impossible on OS 9 because of the amount of frames open in Photoshop. Everytime I tried it, no matter how much RAM I gave Photoshop, the machine crashed. Only Photoshop on Windows managed it. And if I attempt the same thing today on Photoshop 7 on OSX then again I would have a problem. After opening too many files the GUI slows down massively.

All this complaining about Windows' GUI is pathetic. At leat try to say the same crap about GUI's running on Linux. Oh, of course, people use Linux for work and not 'browsing' (a word meaning 'staring at the GUI' by the look of it). The same way the majority of the world's economy runs on Windows because a cute and slow GUI would be a distraction.<hr /></blockquote>THEN GO BACK TO YOUR PC-SENTRIC BRIGDE YOU ANNOYING, PATHETIC LITTLE MONGERING TROLL.

[edited because macnn can no longer quote correctly]<hr /></blockquote>Sad ****ing fool. You spent $3000 on a computer for web-surfing and now you cry like a baby. PC-SENTRIC? Which dictionary did that come out of? Sherlock? Next time wait for the spinning wheel to stop spinning and then the right spelling will turn up.

Also, I have two Macs Vs one PeeCee. Which means? I'm not a computer worshipping fool brain. And I haven't been for a while because...

Well, the night OSX came out I stood in a queue at midnight to buy this exciting new OS. Sexy girls passing by on their way to nightclubs (the type you dream about, KidRed...or browse for) asked us what we were waiting for. Computer worshipping morons in the queue responded 'Apple ith releathing a new operating thytem' and the girls could not believe how daft all 200 of us looked.

Then I bought the OS and went home and basically installed what was the ****test, buggiest and half-baked OS in existence. That OS was the first release of OSX and people on this board and on the newsgroups would not accept my review of it and claimed it was superior to anything when it was basically a crock of ****. The same attitude will continue to persist. OSX is still no better than Windows 2000, which is a three year old OS. Round squidgy widgets don't make an OS superior, neither does a slow interface or one that still lags when multi-tasking. That doesn't mean it is useless, I do all my main work on OSX and reserve Windows for internet and multi-media related stuff. I don't even give a **** about the OS. For me apps are what I use and care about and if that is not the case with everyone then you can tell the productive types from the OS worshipping fool brains.

And the apps, from Photoshop to DVD Authoring, are all available on PeeCees too and are just as easy and much faster to use. The fanatics here like to point out something like iDVD without realizing that the amount of iDVD like apps on Windows is getting larger and are better than iDVD! Just check out DVD Workshop or Pinnacle DVD Express. All the same simplicity and even cute interface.

unimacs · Jun 9, 2002, 12:37 AM

Oh, and one more thing...

There's another reason I like Macs. Like I said, I use PC's all day, - I've had one one my desk for 12 years. They've not always been running DOS or Windows and they may not have been be the only computer on my desk, but they've always been there.

In all that time, I've discovered, used or have been shown many cool features and some very nice software and hardware related to PCs. The thing is I've never been "blown away" by anything I've ever seen or used on the Wintel platform.

There have been many, many times I found myself uttering "Wow!" when I've seen for the first time some of things done with Apple's or NeXT's software and hardware over the years. Maybe if I were a serious gamer, the "Wow" factor would tilt more in the PCs favor, but for me, the Mac is where it's at. Maybe it's just that the creative types tend to be drawn more to the Mac.

KellyHogan · Jun 9, 2002, 12:57 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by unimacs:
Oh, and one more thing...

Maybe it's just that the creative types tend to be drawn more to the Mac.<hr /></blockquote>Creative types traditionally use Macs because when the best design apps first came out PeeCees were basically DOS Office computers. It took several years and a few revisions of Windows for those apps to come. Photoshop, the most famous example, was released at version 2.5.

Even then 3D work was never taken seriously on Macs because of the memory management. Pros either used DOS (they really did) apps like 3D Studio or SGI's. Then NT came out and SGI lost a huge chunk of the market because NT boxes by manufacturers like Integraph were faster and cheaper and ran Softimage, Maya, Lightwave and out of the box software faster than any other OS and just as stable.

I remember when After Effects 3 came out. I went to an animation studio to see it in action. It was running on a Mac 604e @ 200Mhz and Integraph Pentium Pro 200 machine. The NT box was, get this, four times faster! It also had Open GL hardware to die for. It also cost the same price as the Mac. It was during this time that Windows boxes started eating not only SGI's traditional market but also Apple's. I built a Dual Pentium II box running NT 4 at that time and ran After Effects, Premiere, Photoshop and Lightwave. The box was solid and fast. I've still not seen a Mac that could handle what I threw at that and I'm not talking about rendering speed (itsslow by modern standards). It was the ability to stand up and stay 'snappy' when handling so many bitmaps, 3D graphics and videos at the same time. Classic would fall over and OSX just becomes like molasses when handling too much media. Maybe 10.2 will finally fix this.

But there are people who have stuck to the Mac simply out of loyalty. I prefer something about handling graphics files on a Mac, I think it was the thumbnails and the labelling in the Finder. This is something Windows didn't have for some time. XP has thumbnails now but like OSX no labelling. It was those two things that made a designers life so much easier when working on a large project--file management. I think OSX has lost some of that.

KaptainKaya · Jun 9, 2002, 01:18 AM

Graphics people use Macs because of true WYSIWYG. Color correction is near perfect..see it red #xxxxx on the screen, and it will print red #xxxxx. no fusses. Also, I can't think of using WinXP in Photoshop. The colors are obtrusive, and not to mention bulky. I thought Aqua was gonna screw my color coordination but after seing XP, I love Aqua. Another thing, Pros use Macs because they arent corporate. Art people are not associated with a suit and tie and wang up the as$. (no offense to business people, but the overall view of stockholders and board of directors is what I was going at)

oeyvind · Jun 9, 2002, 01:28 AM

Go and read this <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712840/oeyvind-20" target="_blank">book</a>, it might help you understand... ^^

MDA · Jun 9, 2002, 02:26 AM

My reasons for preferring the Mac have almost entirely to do with the look and feel of the operating system, both OS 9 and OS X.
The boys in Redmond have never really understood the user experience from the end user point of view. On the other hand the boys in Cupertino always have. Microsoft seems to feel the need to hold the users hand every step of the way with the helpful little wizards and pop-ups, really, really annoying. When using a PC you are never far away from being reminded that you are using something produced by Microsoft with the help of their partner in crime Intel. They are way too worried that you'll forget just who produced the OS and built the hardware that run your crappy little PC. Not to mention the fact that the default theme color in XP is simply god awful. Apple has always, for the most part, let the user decide how they are going to user their computer and what they are going to do with it. I have never, never been able to understand how anyone could prefer a PC over a Mac. Sadly way too many people do though.

MDA

MindFad · Jun 9, 2002, 02:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oeyvind:
Go and read this <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712840/oeyvind-20" target="_blank">book</a>, it might help you understand... ^^<hr /></blockquote>Haha, good book. I read that in the book store the other day. Short but great read for any Mac user.

undotwa · Jun 9, 2002, 03:56 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MindFad:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oeyvind:
Go and read this <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712840/oeyvind-20" target="_blank">book</a>, it might help you understand... ^^<hr /></blockquote>Haha, good book. I read that in the book store the other day. Short but great read for any Mac user.<hr /></blockquote>I found it quite boring actually <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

KellyHogan · Jun 9, 2002, 05:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
Graphics people use Macs because of true WYSIWYG. Color correction is near perfect..see it red #xxxxx on the screen, and it will print red #xxxxx. no fusses. Also, I can't think of using WinXP in Photoshop. The colors are obtrusive, and not to mention bulky. <hr /></blockquote>Ahem. The operating system has nothing to do with it. You're suppose to calibrate Photoshop and the monitor in order to get an idea what the colors should print like.

Next fanatic.

SMacTech · Jun 9, 2002, 07:47 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
 Another thing, Pros use Macs because they arent corporate. Art people are not associated with a suit and tie and wang up the as$. (no offense to business people, but the overall view of stockholders and board of directors is what I was going at)<hr /></blockquote>I will tell the head of our Graphic Arts department to stop using his Mac when he has his suit and tie on. For that matter, me too! You don't have a clue about corporate environments and Mac users. I am not on any 'board of directors', just a sys admin who happens to occasionally wear a tie and use a Mac.

mrchin · Jun 9, 2002, 08:20 AM

Colorsync. Very key element for an artist. Not available on windows.

Axel · Jun 9, 2002, 08:49 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
You spent $3000 on a computer for web-surfing and now you cry like a baby.<hr /></blockquote>You really don't get it, do you ?

rm199 · Jun 9, 2002, 08:57 AM

IMHO OS X is what will move people from Windows to Mac. ive only been using it 2 weeks and wouldn't go back (for my primary machine). People in my office are considering it. Nuff said... I still have a monster PC laptop also, some things just don't work in VPC fast enough.

one thing though... OS X needs horsepower and resources. started with 256, then 768 now I think I'll need to max out the PB to 1Gb its just so hungry for RAM. hey what can you do, thats just the way it is

RM

MDA · Jun 9, 2002, 09:54 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KaptainKaya:
Graphics people use Macs because of true WYSIWYG. Color correction is near perfect..see it red #xxxxx on the screen, and it will print red #xxxxx. no fusses. Also, I can't think of using WinXP in Photoshop. The colors are obtrusive, and not to mention bulky. <hr /></blockquote>Ahem. The operating system has nothing to do with it. You're suppose to calibrate Photoshop and the monitor in order to get an idea what the colors should print like.

Next fanatic.<hr /></blockquote>One word, Colorsync.

MDA

rlmorel · Jun 9, 2002, 10:05 AM

sigh.

I wouldn't normally get drawn in like trolls like kellyhogan, but sometimes the temptation is too great.

The Mac just works. Period. I work with NT, 2000, 98, 95, 3.1, UNIX, and MacOS. There is one OS that does what I ask of it, almost all the time, and that is MacOS.

I don't have to go through a continual "Insert WIN98 Disk..." any time I look at any system setting.

I don't have to go through the futility of copying a file to a zip drive or other media, watch it go nearly all the way through the copy, and then with only a few kilobytes left, get the message "There is not enough space to copy..." The idiots at Microsoft don't think it is important enough to look at the size of the file you are copying, and compare it to space available on the destination before it tries to copy. They apparently figure the cpu cycles required to do that are much more precious than your time.

I don't have to deal with the inconsistency (to the same degree) that I find in windows programs. For the most part, the same options are in the same places in Mac programs.

I don't obsess over my hardware. At all. Apple makes it. For the most part, it drives the applications I need at acceptable speeds, and in most cases, I see no difference.

Oh sure, scrolling in Excel is faster on Windows. That's a great big help. Select a row, and drag down...one little slip and you are at row 5388 instead of 225. Oh..so drag back up...and you are instantly at zero. Ummm...drag back down, and you are back at row 10,000. So you alter your technique to produce the desired result.

I don't worry about what IRQ is conflicting with another.

I don't have to worry about DLL's being to old, incompatible or missing.

I am not even going to mention the Registry.

I don't have to reinstall applications as often because something stopped working. I can find the preference file or the .plist file and delete that to get back to a working app. With Windows, Reinstall!

I don't have to reinstall or re-image my mac when something stops working. In Windows, the IT department often has to re-image and reinstall the entire OS.

I don't deal with ports and printers.

I don't give a flying damn about what drive letter is assigned to what drive. "Is my CD drive D or E?" And why the CHRIST do I even need to have a drive called by a letter?

I can often plug many peripherals into my mac, and they just work. I needed to get a file off of a floppy recently so I borrowed a USB floppy drive...plugged it in and it worked. No "Please insert the disk..." or browsing around trying to find the bloody thing, having the OS assign a drive letter and an IRQ...

I could go on and on. But this post should not be about why I don't use Windows. I find Windows to be perfectly acceptable for many tasks. I use Windows all day, every day, and I get by just fine with it most of the time.

Is MacOS perfect? Most certainly not. But there are little things that show how Apple has paid attention to detail, and these are the things that I find appealing apart from the obverse of all the above statements.

As an example, On a Mac running OS9, save a file. When the save dialog box appears, insert a zip drive. The directory in the save dialog box changes to root level on the zip drive automatically. It doesn't work yet in OSX, neither do spring loaded folders, windowshade, etc., but they will.

OSX is an immature OS, but already it is far better than any other GUI OS, IMO.

MacOS is at a disadvantage in the corporate environment. Is this an accident? I think not. Can it be overcome, and is it being overcome? Most certainly, 10.2 brings us closer still.

In summary, I most enjoy using MacOS so I don't have to support the Corporate Nazis at Microsoft! Alas, I still must use MS Office.

daftpig · Jun 9, 2002, 10:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KellyHogan:

You like the interface of what? Icons, file, folders and windows with three widgets? The browser? For Ef's sake. How sad and stupid a comment can you make? Every fricking 2D windowed interface is the same **** to anyone with half a rational brain regardless of a curve here or a round button there. Use a fricking skin or theme if you don't like the one you see.

And Windows is faster at any 'browsing' app no matter what. No matter what. There is no Mac that can outrun my simple little ****ty PeeCee at any cross-platform application. That means a lot to me because if I go back to using Premiere or Lightwave the Mac would not even be a choice. I could even make the example of how last year I had to manually paint over one thousand frames of video, one frame at a time because one of the crew was sitting in the background of what was supposed to be an empty room with only one actor. This task would have been impossible on OS 9 because of the amount of frames open in Photoshop. Everytime I tried it, no matter how much RAM I gave Photoshop, the machine crashed. Only Photoshop on Windows managed it. And if I attempt the same thing today on Photoshop 7 on OSX then again I would have a problem. After opening too many files the GUI slows down massively.

All this complaining about Windows' GUI is pathetic. At leat try to say the same crap about GUI's running on Linux. Oh, of course, people use Linux for work and not 'browsing' (a word meaning 'staring at the GUI' by the look of it). The same way the majority of the world's economy runs on Windows because a cute and slow GUI would be a distraction.[/qb]<hr /></blockquote>Haven't you realised that people dont just buy a computer to surf? The survey only shows that there is a large internet penetration rate for macnn users, which is OF COURSE logical since this is an online forum. You are also assuming that poeple will simply buy a machine to surf with simply because it's going to be faster. Internet surfing is just a sideline habit, surfing is not actually getting work done.

EDIT: And I also noticed that you would just sidestep perfectly logical arguments by other forum users and just attempt to make others look stuid by attacking their _other_ arguments. How clever.

[ 06-09-2002, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: daftpig ]

gorgonzola · Jun 9, 2002, 03:01 PM

Another heated Mac vs PC discussion that returns us, once again, to the status quo...

<img src="http://forums.macnn.com/images/mod_threadclosed.gif" alt=" - " />