[goMac]

When Conundrum Software joined Carpe Stellarem, it was agreed that we would pursue themes only if we could make them less of a hack. Current theme programs act as micro-installers, modifying system files and backing up old ones. For the last few months we have been working on producing the "holy grail" of theme changing, a safe, feature-ful installer that is truly a evolution. We've code named this theme changer Monolith.



Here are the features of Monolith:

� Monolith can change themes without modifying files on the hard drive. You will notice in the screen shot there is no authentication button. This is because no authentication is needed because no copies to system directories are done. This also means the original Aqua files are never altered. Monolith can theme any file on the system without modifying it, including files within applications.

� User based themes - because the system is never modified different users can use different themes.

� "Build to order" themes - A user can customize a theme as specified by the theme's creator. For example, I could choose to use Theme A with round buttons, or square buttons, in blue green or gold. This would appear as one theme in the program but you would be given options in drop down menus on the right (note this feature was not working at screenshot time). This feature will only be support with xscheme files.

� Resource based themes - XScheme's will now support storing resources instead of themes. This has to do with grouping resources for build to order themes. This will be part of ThemeKit 2.0.

� New theme list view - the theme list is now a outline view, meaning theme variations can be grouped with their parent theme. XScheme's will also support a name for the theme as a whole.

Note that any changes to the XScheme format will be introduced into ThemeKit directly. This means any ThemeKit based program will be able to read resource based xschemes by simply droppping in a new version of ThemeKit. This can even be done on compiled programs.

Monolith will support rsrc, dlta, .theme, and xscheme. Theme creators will not have to make any changes to work with Monolith.

Monolith has been always in XCode on 10.3 (since June). It will require 10.3.

Monolith will not be marketed as either Duality or Monolith. We have no idea what we're going to call it actually.

The theme changing engine is being written by Carpe Stellarem, and I personally am working on the app. Carpe Stellarem is estimating 2 weeks until we have a release quality engine. Hopefully we will see a beta by the end of the month or early next month.

Any questions or comments are welcome. We're even still taking feature requests.

[:dragonflypro:]

I hope it works as advertised.

I have to say that from the description...

Monolith can change themes without modifying files on the hard drive. You will notice in the screen shot there is no authentication button. This is because no authentication is needed because no copies to system directories are done. This also means the original Aqua files are never altered. Monolith can theme any file on the system without modifying it, including files within applications.

...it just sounds like it is asking for conflicts with apps that make calls to the .rsrc files.

I have no idea, really...

But this is what Kaleidoscope used to do and it was a pain to no end. Worked in some apps, not in others, funky patterns here and there. I don't pine for those days.

Second, I think this may be a big concern to theme devs...they may not want their original theme resources used by other themes.

I don't see the problem with replacing sys files...

What is need is a compatibility filter that Pre-Flights a theme relative to an OS version. Maybe not dynamic and sexy, but foolproof.

2 bits

T

[goMac]

Originally posted by :dragonflypro::
What is need is a compatibility filter that Pre-Flights a theme relative to an OS version. Maybe not dynamic and sexy, but foolproof.

Duality currently has pre-flight operations to do just that. Monolith will also have them. However, copying files means that you can't have themes by user. It also means if by chance the pre flight does not work out the original Aqua files are gone. If there are issues, Monolith simply kills itself and the user goes back to Aqua.

[Liquidity X]

eta?

[ambush]

lookin' good!

[goMac]

Originally posted by Liquidity X:
eta?

Beta by the end of the month or early next month. No idea on a final version. Depends on if we run into any problems.

[n8x]

There aren't nearly enough themes being made to make fancy programs like this necessary..

[fireside]

so hows it work?

[TheDisaster]

Originally posted by n8x:
There aren't nearly enough themes being made to make fancy programs like this necessary..

People might be more willing to make more themes if more people used them. More people might use themes is they weren't applied in such a potentially dangerous way.

[goMac]

Originally posted by fireside:
so hows it work?

That would be a secret right now.

Without revealing too much right now it re-direct where the system reads from.

[TheIceMan]

goMac: Shareware? Freeware? Costs?

[goMac]

Originally posted by TheIceMan:
goMac: Shareware? Freeware? Costs?

It will be shareware. The price has not been decided yet, although there will be a upgrade price for Duality users.

[NetworkShadow]

Holy Crap! This sounds like what we've all been wishing for!

"� Monolith can change themes without modifying files on the hard drive. You will notice in the screen shot there is no authentication button. This is because no authentication is needed because no copies to system directories are done. This also means the original Aqua files are never altered. Monolith can theme any file on the system without modifying it, including files within applications.

� User based themes - because the system is never modified different users can use different themes."

Just that alone could make this the best changer around. Sounds like it works a bit like an Unsanity haxie. Heck I'd pay a $10 to $20 shareware fee if it worked well. (optional registration is the way to go though)
Keep us updated on it!

[akuma-x]

I'm not really liking the sound of this.
It sounds like Windowblinds for Mac. If you notice More people on Windows stopped using Windowblinds when XP came out because of one reason and one reason only, Windowblinds was an app that ran in the background and took up system resources. This sounds to me like it will be the same thing. when you edit the system files them self then you are not taking anymore system resources than normal but if you have an app. running the theme then there will be system resources used and depending on the machine there will be slowdowns.

[goMac]

Originally posted by akuma-x:
I'm not really liking the sound of this.
It sounds like Windowblinds for Mac. If you notice More people on Windows stopped using Windowblinds when XP came out because of one reason and one reason only, Windowblinds was an app that ran in the background and took up system resources. This sounds to me like it will be the same thing. when you edit the system files them self then you are not taking anymore system resources than normal but if you have an app. running the theme then there will be system resources used and depending on the machine there will be slowdowns.

The engine is designed to only take system resources when a theme change is in progress.

[NetworkShadow]

Originally posted by goMac:
The engine is designed to only take system resources when a theme change is in progress.

Hmmm now I'd be interested in how that works... Most things like this take little or no system resources on OS X though. I wonder if this could open up some of the current themeing limitations also? Could this turn into kaleidoscope for OS X?

[codywalton]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Hmmm now I'd be interested in how that works... Most things like this take little or no system resources on OS X though. I wonder if this could open up some of the current themeing limitations also? Could this turn into kaleidoscope for OS X?

Damn, I hope so.

[Sage]

This is quite intriguing, and I'd love to see how it turns out!

However, as I've harped on so many times before, the shareware thing is going to be a problem for me, because I was birthed from two hyper-paranoid parents who would never let me pay a "stranger" over the Internet.

Any, um, solution for that bind I'm in? I'd hate to be left out of the whole fun of themeing just because of that.

[goMac]

The engine caches the theme in RAM so there is no generation taking up CPU after the change is complete. The most CPU intensive opertaions will be on log in/log out when the theme is copied to memory. At most it will only be an additional second or two. The application does all the pre-flight stuff and saves it to the user's home folder, so you won't get a "theme is changing" dialog similar to what you get with Duality on login.

Aside from that, there isn't much in the way of cpu usage that you'll even notice, just some small maintainance stuff.

There might even be some speed boost from moving files into RAM, but thats yet to be seen.

[TheIceMan]

Originally posted by akuma-x:
...It sounds like Windowblinds for Mac ...and depending on the machine there will be slowdowns.

I did use WindowBlinds when I was using my Dell desktop a year ago. And you are right in that the system does slow down a bit because it uses up resources. I hope Monolith won't hog up system resources.

[kmkkid]

FYI, Windowblinds 4 doesnt use anymore resources than the built in XP themeing engine. In fact it may even use less.


Chris

[kovacs]

Holy grail ? We'll see ...

[sushiism]

Originally posted by n8x:
There aren't nearly enough themes being made to make fancy programs like this necessary..

I'd make a theme if i didnt have to risk my system files and i think lots of other people would too who use their machines for pro work and dont want to risk breaking them

[asleep@thewheel]

sounds good...where do i pay?



colin i'd also like to know if the current limitations of the os x gui can be surpassed in some way or is the rscs that is used by monolith bounded by the current system extras resourse?

for example will someone of genius magnitude [takashi izawa] be able to add resources similar to menu enhancer?

what i mean is, what's been a bug up my ass since 10.0 is no window borders. windows need borders...for dragability and for esthetics.

[rhythmicmoose]

Awesome. I really miss the Kaleidoscope days. If this is as safe as it sounds, I can't wait. I think a lot more themes will start popping up if people don't have to be afraid of messing with resources.

[sniffer]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
FYI, Windowblinds 4 doesnt use anymore resources than the built in XP themeing engine. In fact it may even use less.


Chris

Well not in my experience. I notice such things extremely well on my pentium2 powered XP box. Thought it has been a few months since the last time I tested windowsblinds.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by asleep@thewheel:
sounds good...where do i pay?



colin i'd also like to know if the current limitations of the os x gui can be surpassed in some way or is the rscs that is used by monolith bounded by the current system extras resourse?

for example will someone of genius magnitude [takashi izawa] be able to add resources similar to menu enhancer?

what i mean is, what's been a bug up my ass since 10.0 is no window borders. windows need borders...for dragability and for esthetics.

Doing this would require a lot of time even if its possible, which I doubt.

[Tulkas]

Originally posted by Sage:
This is quite intriguing, and I'd love to see how it turns out!

However, as I've harped on so many times before, the shareware thing is going to be a problem for me, because I was birthed from two hyper-paranoid parents who would never let me pay a "stranger" over the Internet.

Any, um, solution for that bind I'm in? I'd hate to be left out of the whole fun of themeing just because of that.

So you want it free because your parents won't let you buy it

[lenox]

Well, I see two solutions:

1.) Invite the authors of the program over for dinner. That way, they won't be "strangers" and you should be able to purchase it just fine.

2.) Get a job, and tell your parents that you are independent. Etc.

[NetworkShadow]

Get a debit card as soon as you can, that was a happy day for me.

[keston]

And if you parents wouldn't let you buy a mercedes benz? Sympathy is no reason to git free stuff kid

Originally posted by Tulkas:
So you want it free because your parents won't let you buy it

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by sniffer:
Well not in my experience. I notice such things extremely well on my pentium2 powered XP box. Thought it has been a few months since the last time I tested windowsblinds.

And who in their right mind would install XP on a pentium 2?


Chris

[Synotic]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Hmmm now I'd be interested in how that works... Most things like this take little or no system resources on OS X though. I wonder if this could open up some of the current themeing limitations also? Could this turn into kaleidoscope for OS X?

I doubt it. It seems that how it works is that when you choose a theme it puts in the memory and then tells the system/apps to call the theme from this new location. He's not changing themes or anything. Anyways, does this mean we'd be dependent on Monolith if we used in case a problem arose? What if the engine crashes and the memory is freed... will apps try to call the theme unsuccessfully and crash? Etc... Of course I'm just guessing, I don't know how it really works

[akuma-x]

Originally posted by goMac:
The engine caches the theme in RAM so there is no generation taking up CPU after the change is complete. The most CPU intensive opertaions will be on log in/log out when the theme is copied to memory. At most it will only be an additional second or two. The application does all the pre-flight stuff and saves it to the user's home folder, so you won't get a "theme is changing" dialog similar to what you get with Duality on login.

Aside from that, there isn't much in the way of cpu usage that you'll even notice, just some small maintainance stuff.

There might even be some speed boost from moving files into RAM, but thats yet to be seen.

Eww! No thank you. This sounds exactly like Windowblinds for OS X. And here I was hopping to be wrong on my 1st post.
I will be sticking to the way themeing is handled now.

[MarkLT1]

Originally posted by akuma-x:
Eww! No thank you. This sounds exactly like Windowblinds for OS X. And here I was hopping to be wrong on my 1st post.
I will be sticking to the way themeing is handled now.

Well, I, for one, am happy to see another option.. I mean, heck, I usually have 50-60% of my cpu idle at any given time.. so big deal if it takes a little more of the CPU. If this works the way it is supposed to, it sounds like a much safer way to theme.

[sushiism]

well i cant really risk using themes on my computer at the moment but if there is a safe way like windowblinds was then i would especially seen as panther made things so ugly

[Mediaman_12]

I kind of like the system we have now. replacing the default OS files with modified versions. This means that choosing to implement a theme (as a alternative to the default Aqua) uses NO system resources, or introduces any unknown instability (unless the theme is badly created, or for an older system etc. But them it will crash almost instantly).
Doing it the method in 'Monolith' introduces extra system processes, which could lead to long term incompatibilities and unforeseen instability, (much like Unsanitys haxie's) and seams a return to Kaleidoscope in OS9 and it's associated problems.

I have no problem with people who 'chose' to use this system to swap themes, I just wont be one of them (the same as I don't use Metallifizer). As long as it doesn't introduce a 'better' theme format that can only be used by this program, it's fine by me.

p.s. The main reason XP themers decided not to use WindowBlinds was mainly on cost. Ether you could buy WindowBlinds (and run it a a permanent process) or install a patched .DLL file for free (and use the built in theme switcher).

[goMac]

This doesn't use system resources. Another engine was designed that latched onto every app and redirected calls for pxm's. That engine took up CPU, and was much further from completion.

This engine does not use any CPU. It does not latch onto applications and intercept calls. So, no extra CPU is used.

[Sage]

Originally posted by keston:
And if you parents wouldn't let you buy a mercedes benz? Sympathy is no reason to git free stuff kid

Yeesh, that was really helpful.

With all sincerity, I wasn't trying to get myself a "freebee", and if it sounded like, that, sorry. I was [seriously] contemplating getting goMac's address (or whoever the main developer is), and send him the money via snail-mail, because I'm going to get my license soon, so I can pull that off (unlike a credit car transaction, which of course gets recorded).

If goMac would rather not do that, then I was hoping he could come up with another idea, or I could of course go through with NetworkShadow's advice.

[goMac]

Originally posted by Sage:
If goMac would rather not do that, then I was hoping he could come up with another idea, or I could of course go through with NetworkShadow's advice.

When it is done, you should eb able to buy it by mail via BMT Micro (bmtmicro.com). They handle all money transactions currently.

[mrtew]

Originally posted by Sage:
...I was birthed from two hyper-paranoid parents who would never let me pay a "stranger" over the Internet.

First of all if there is ever a fraudulent charge on your (or your parent's) card you won't have to pay for it. Visa and MC have policys of never passing on stuff like that to their customers or EVERYONE would be too paranoid to use their cards anywhere. Really. You will never have to pay for a charge you didn't authorize. Secondly, the stranger at the mall is more likely to be stupid enough to steal your credit card number than a huge financial company like PayPal etc. A company like that has a reputation built totally on trustyworthy handling of people's credit card information. Tell them to get real.

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:

p.s. The main reason XP themers decided not to use WindowBlinds was mainly on cost. Ether you could buy WindowBlinds (and run it a a permanent process) or install a patched .DLL file for free (and use the built in theme switcher).

XP's themeing engine is a constant process. It's a service, which is really no different than windowblinds. Both are even authorized by MS.

Oh and I've found that since WB 4 the odd program glitches and crashes seem to be a thing of the past.


Chris

[Sage]

Originally posted by goMac:
When it is done, you should eb able to buy it by mail via BMT Micro (bmtmicro.com). They handle all money transactions currently.

That should do the trick. Thanks!

Originally posted by mrtew:
[...] Tell them to get real.

Talking like that to an Asian mom? Get real. But really, I do mean it when I say that it won't work with her... you have to understand that she wouldn't even let me hear any of the news on the Kobe Bryant scandal, because she thinks it's inappropriate for me (I'm what, almost 16?). Really, she needs to get out more, but regardless let's just say that I'll be incredibly happy when I get my license, and even more so when I move out.

Anyway, sorry, didn't mean to make this "Sage's Household Life" thread... carry on with discussions about Monolith!

And to start, one question I have: Will this offer the kind of flexibility that Kaleidoscope had, in that you could even go so far as to move the close/min/expand widgets elsewhere or say make the titlebars any size?

[timdorr]

Ok, I must post because there is quite a bit of FUD going around this thread.

Regarding WindowBlinds:
Both WB and MSStyles (the built-in XP themeing engine) use the same method to theme XP. They both hook into the drawing calls Windows uses to draw windows and such. Microsoft actually took a fair ammount of their ideas from WB, as evidenced by Stardock and MS's close relationships. Unfortunately, because MSStyles runs as a service, it's percieved as not using any additional resources. However, this is incorrect. Go to Administrative Tools > Services and turn off the themeing service. It cuts your memory usage and turns off all the themes. WB runs as a user-level process, so you see it in the process list. For me right now, it's using 1.2M of RAM on my PC. Unloading MSStyles usually frees up 20M. WB also makes use of more advanced rendering techniques using the power of my video card. MSStyles takes the safe road for compatibility. The fact is, WB uses less RAM and makes better use of my video card. Saying it's a resource hog is rediculous. Also, with SkinStudio 4, you can convert all your MSStyle themes to WB themes too. So, you can have your cake, and eat it too

[ApeInTheShell]

If it is the holy grail make sure you pick the the worst theme, otherwise the good themes will make you old very quick and eventually turn you into dust.

Remember, you need the themechanger for your ill father who is desperate for customizability.

[fireside]

so if it saves it to ram wouldnt that mean that it would go away after a restart or after the ram reset it self (like, a huge file in Photoshop)?

[goMac]

Originally posted by fireside:
so if it saves it to ram wouldnt that mean that it would go away after a restart or after the ram reset it self (like, a huge file in Photoshop)?

Yes, it would. The memory is attached to the background daemon so if the daemon goes down th theme goes down, moving the system back to Aqua.

The daemon keeps an image in each users home folder of what was in RAM, so it can quickly restore the theme setting on login. It also deallocates the theme in RAM on logout.

As for other features that people have been requesting (i.e. resizing) that would require the engine watching applications and attaching itself to them. This would take up CPU, but we do have an engine which does this, although it is incomplete (currently it can't touch pxm requests). This engine (if we could complete it) would most likely be stacked on top of the current engine Monolith is using in a future release.

One feature I neglected to mention is that Monolith has quick loading. It doesn't keep themes in a folder. Instead, it caches parsed themes in a file, so it doesn't have to re-parse themes on startup, which should produce far faster starts on the application.

[NetworkShadow]

How much ram would we be talking about? I don't think it would be a problem for my 1,280MB or ram, but would it be a considerable amount for 256MB people?

[Mike S.]

The question as to whether this will be or can be turned into anything like Kaleidoscope has been asked several times and I haven't seen an answer yet.

I'm guessing it won't/can't but I'd like to get a definitive answer.

Is it or can it potentially become the next Kaleidoscope? Yes or No

[goMac]

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
How much ram would we be talking about? I don't think it would be a problem for my 1,280MB or ram, but would it be a considerable amount for 256MB people?

Likely around 20 MB of ram on average. Thats not real memory only. Thats the total of virtual memory + memory. Far less than a average program.

On the question of Kalaidescope, I will lay out what this will do, and you can draw your own conclusion:

1) This will modify the interface without touching the hard drive.
2) This will allow user based themes.
3) This will not change element sizes outside of normal means right now because it must latch onto each application seperately in order to do so and intercept drawing commands. We have an engine that can latch onto application but it can not yet intercept drawing commands (not enough info on how to properly spoof the commands we've found). If we find more information on these drawing commands we could stack something like this on top on Monolith. So for now, no element resizing. The first priority is getting a non-hard drive modifying changer out. This option would also take extra CPU.