[Apple_John]

Apple makes their money from Hardware. Why Apple do not sell a Mac line to run on x86?

Let's face it, most consumers are PC/windows users and it is not going to change in the near future. I understand the beauty of MacOS, iApp and FCP sell Mac. However, many will still buy a Mac even it runs on Windows.

I bought a PC in Feb, ~$1200us. AMD 2200+, WD 80gb 8mb, Asus A7N8X Deluxe, Samsung 151s, and WinXP pro... The only reason I got myself a PC is because I need to run Windows for school/work.

I bought a brand new DELL 3 weeks ago for my parents, ~$300us + 17" CRT. P4 2.2, 40gb, 256, and WinXP home. The reason I got them a dell is because it is running on Windows and my parents know how to use it to surf the web.

For that $1500us, I really hope I could spend it on Apple instead. However, I cannot. I need Windows, so I need a PC. And I don't want to teach/support my parents MacOS (they took a computer course, so they will never listen to me... They know it all... and it is a DELL P4, so they can show off to other... )

If PM G4 and eMac run on Windows (not VPC), I could never buy these 2 PC. The price of Apple computer is cheaper / same as equil PC. And I know I will get good parts and support from Apple. Building my PC took me 2 weeks of shopping/pricematching parts. And ordering the dell at that price is a nightmare. As for Mac, I can just drop by and pick up at university computer store.

Many of my friends like Mac hardware, but they need Windows. And gamers are willing to spend $$$ to make their black boxes cool and admit G5 has the best Al case with clear side.

It should be near zero R&D for Apple to change the MB and x86 in the Mac. If the x86 Mac w/ WinXp are selling the same price as PPC Mac, it should easily have over 10% of PC market share,(look at iPod, and the number of people want Apple LCD for their PC) which imply double of the machine sales.

The true beauty of Mac is SW and HW work together seamlessly. But business is business. If Apple can make more $$$, why not?

WTB, most box machines are overpriced and crap, but they sell millions.

[- - e r i k - -]

I'm sure you had a point in there, but damn if I can find it...

[MacGorilla]

Is this some bizzare X ob x86 thread again? Sheesh!

[GoGoReggieXPowars]

You've been here since 2000 and haven't seen the zillion of OSX on x86 threads that get posted here every couple of months?

[Apple_John]

Not OSX on x86!
Is WinXp on Mac!!

OMG, I can't believe I'm posting this yet again:

1. If Apple goes Intel, the big software companies will no longer make Mac versions of their software because Mac users will be able to run Win software at full speed. Once that happens, there's no point in running MacOS at all since there won't be any software for it.
2. Apple needs the profits from their hardware to fund sales channels, marketing, development of the MacOS platform. If they go Intel, people will expect Apple's to be priced like any commodity PC - and there's not enough profit in that to develop an OS/platform.

Apple would then turn into just another PC company. Apple's customers buy Macs because they are not PCs. We don't want Apple to make PCs.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

if apple made a PC, the concept of the Mac would be over



the consumers and the business world would see it as a white flag.

[philzilla]

banish him to the politics lounge

[Apple_John]

1. If Apple goes Intel, the big software companies will no longer make Mac versions of their software because Mac users will be able to run Win software at full speed. Once that happens, there's no point in running MacOS at all since there won't be any software for it.

Even now, many major SW/games are on Windows only. (That's the reason I got a PC and the market of VPC) If not, a huge delay for Mac version. This situation is getting worse, and Apple cannot control it. So, Apple is making near all the important SW for MacOS anyway, beside PS, to support its HW sales.

2. Apple needs the profits from their hardware to fund sales channels, marketing, development of the MacOS platform. If they go Intel, people will expect Apple's to be priced like any commodity PC - and there's not enough profit in that to develop an OS/platform.

Apple's price is very competitive with PC nowaday, priced like any commodity PC.
More HW sales @ this price level = more Profit

Apple would then turn into just another PC company. Apple's customers buy Macs because they are not PCs. We don't want Apple to make PCs.

True, but Porsche making Cayenne won't stop its market buying a 911.

[Apple_John]

the consumers and the business world would see it as a white flag.

How about the Mac-only iPod?? And now...

[Sealobo]

Apple is a hardware company becasue the majority of the incomes are made by selling hardwares. However, what Apple does is really selling everything as a package. Those who buy Macs today are not buying something different for the sake of, being different. Macs have its value of existence becasue it provides a better experience over the PC counterparts. Macs might not get your work done any faster, nor as flexible as the PCs when it comes to software selections and aftermarket hardware support, but we all know that Macs excel in some other aspects, such as a more advanced OS.

Allowing the Mac hardwares to run Windows... wait... what's da freaken point?! You think Macs are more expensive because they hardwares are more costly to produce? No, it's because the costs of all Apple's in-house software development are in the calculation when Apple decide the prices of the hardware sold.

So what you're saying is, let Apple make good looking but cheap PC that runs Windows like dude you're getting a Dell? What's the point? You would buy a Porsche with a Kia engine?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Apple_John:
How about the Mac-only iPod?? And now...

...it is seen as an extremely clever Trojan horse for Windows users, especially in conjunction with iTunes.

I know two people who're going Mac largely due to iPod.

-s*

[Sealobo]

Originally posted by Apple_John:
How about the Mac-only iPod?? And now...

Er... if you want an iPod, even if you want one that works with Windows... you still have to get the freaken iPod itself... right? If you wanna run Windows... you have so many other choices. Making a PC version of the iPod doesn't incur much cost in development. All they need is a freaken driver.

The point is, Apple wouldn't be so dumb to jump into the ultra competitive Wintel PC market along with the big brands. Apple will have no advantages in pricing, cost control and various other economies of scale.

Originally posted by Apple_John:
Even now, many major SW/games are on Windows only. (That's the reason I got a PC and the market of VPC) If not, a huge delay for Mac version. This situation is getting worse, and Apple cannot control it. So, Apple is making near all the important SW for MacOS anyway, beside PS, to support its HW sales.

Apple is only making video and music production software. Everything else is still third party.

Even if it were as bad as you say, how would switching to Intel make this better?

Apple's price is very competitive with PC nowaday, priced like any commodity PC.
More HW sales @ this price level = more Profit

Apple is competitive in laptops, and all-in-one machines. I believe they are competitive for what you get, but people will be expecting bare-box PCs that are dirt-cheap - Apple doesn't and can't compete here. They have a platform to develop.

True, but Porsche making Cayenne won't stop its market buying a 911.

Different beast. What if Porche came out with a model that cost $30,000 and everyone bought that instead?

[Apple_John]

First of all, I have to Thank you for keeping this post civilize.

I said "Why Apple do not sell a Mac line to run on x86?", NOT replace PPC.

We still have our OSX and G4/5, as the same time Apple is selling x86 boxes. (Just like iPod)

Is iPod still a Trojan horse? I am not sure any more. When it is Mac-only, you want an iPod, you will/must buy a Mac. That was the plan. But now, you want an iPod, why buy a Mac? iTunes is the Trojan horse of iPod, and maybe Mac experience as well. But the incentive of 'switching' is not what it used to be.

However, the iPod/iTunes(win) made Apple much more exposure in computer world and increase profit, it is sure a good thing. So is selling a Mac line with x86. We know computer, we know how much computer-power we need for our task. We check the latest price every damn second. However, majority of people have no clue. They still think they need to speed $1000+ every 2 years for a 'good-brand-name-top-of-the-line' machine to send email and download mp3. These are the people that companies make the most profit from. As many of you already know, many people choose their computers based on the color of the cases and the 'Ghz'.

Why not Apple sell Windows machine and make a profit from these 'average joe'? Or gamers who want cool case?

Apple and IBM are the only companies using good parts in their computers. Knowledgeable PC users may willing to pay a premium for quality Apple x86, just like IBM laptop.

More HW sale = Economies of scale = more profit = more in house SW R&D

As for the price/value of Mac vs PC, I do not want to agree. I can pick-up a $300 P4 2.2 Dell, but and the quality/value of eMac blow it away. If Apple is selling x86, it is going to be the same price level as PPC, which is starting at ~$1000. Not dirt cheap junk.

[goMac]

What would the difference between the Apple PC and the Dell PC be other than the Apple logo?

Really now... If you want a Windows machine buy Dell, theres no reason to get and Apple PC. Everything on a Macintosh is reason to buy an actual Macintosh, and thats an advantage Apple probably wants to keep.

[Apple_John]

Apple can make much better PC than Dell and sell at the same price level in general.

More sale = higher profit (Apple is not building xbox)

Business is all about Profit $$$, unless we are running some cult.

ps. well, I give up. Seem like playing devil advocate is no more fun. I just think PC user can enjoy iPod, why not Mac as well.

[goMac]

Originally posted by Apple_John:
[B]Apple can make much better PC than Dell and sell at the same price level in general.

They do. It's called a Macintosh.

[Nonsuch]

Originally posted by Apple_John:
Apple can make much better PC than Dell and sell at the same price level in general.

If there's one thing Dell knows how to do, it's build cheap. Apple cannot compete with Dell at that level, and they know it.

[goMac]

eMac's and iMac's are pretty gosh darn cheap for that power.

Apple makes powerful machines, which is why the iMac G3 is gone. You can find iMac G3's with OS X pretty cheap these days places.

Apple simply doesn't sell the slower machines themselves.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by sealobo:

The point is, Apple wouldn't be so dumb to jump into the ultra competitive Wintel PC market along with the big brands. Apple will have no advantages in pricing, cost control and various other economies of scale.

i think sealobo has got the right idea... if they did make a PC, then they would have to market and compete with all the other windows PC makers. In which they have no advantages (besides the built in mac community who need PCs and macs).

If a moderate profit was made, would it be worth the indignity of being forced to concede that they were forced to make PCs to supplement their mac lineup? Not in my opinion.

[Apple_John]

Please note:

-I said "If Apple is selling x86, it is going to be the same price level as PPC, which is starting at ~$1000. Not dirt cheap junk."
(just like iPod, same price for Mac / Win version)

- And, "majority of people...still think they need to spend $1000+ ... machine"
(Average people are still spending $1000+ for a computer...not building their own or buying the cheapest one only.)
-------------

It is surprised and sad to see so many Mac users here think that Mac is not price competitive enough on its HW alone.

I found iBook, iMac, eMac, and Powerbook offer the best value in the industry, even on its HW alone. If I can find a brand new PC notebook just as ibook's price and feature, I will buy it now. Building my own AMD w/ 15" LCD is just as the same price of a iMac G4, of course it got 3 PCI, usb2... but I don't have the iLamp on the desk and I spent hours. Apple HW is very reasonable priced.

The Pro line is a bit different, people who are willing to spend $2000+ for a computer are not just looking for value. We know that.

Even Apple can 'only' capture 5% of PC market sale, it will nearly 100% increase in sale(and maybe profit). What is a easier way for Apple to increase profit w/o major R&D and in a short time period?

0.02

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Apple_John:


Business is all about Profit $$$, unless we are running some cult.
.

We are cult-like, silly.

[Sealobo]

Brand loyalty & Sense of Superiority, now with ultra high tech OS in mass circulation.

You can't get that kinda shxt anywhere else. This is the cult in the computer industry.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Why in hell would Apple mire itself in a market that even the established giants are starting to flee?

Desktop PC hardware is racing full speed into complete 'disposable commodity-ville'. It's yesterday's old news.

Actually, Apple has about the ONLY sustainable (for the near future) business model for stuffing (mostly) off the shelf parts into a box and have it remain profitable. With items like the G5 towers, and Apple�s exclusive �if you want it, you ain't gettin' it anywhere else� approach, Apple's desktop hardware continues to maintain a perceived INCREASE in value.

Contrast with PC box makers who are struggling to maintain ANY perceived value above the murky waters of profitability.

Only a rapidly dwindling number of people continue to be fooled that there's anything 'exclusive' going on inside a box of common off the shelf parts that Dell slaps a label on- or that there�s anything inside there one couldn't obtain far cheaper from countless other sources. All they can do is tart up the exterior makeup a bit, and pretend they'll give you better service on the same box of parts 100,000 others will sell you.

Screw getting into the dying desktop PC market- Apple needs to stay with the future- desktop killing laptops, devices like the iPod, and further down the road, dive full bore into the true modern era: 32" 42" 50" 61� Apple Plasma TVs.

Apple (if the past is any indicator) will probably stick with the future- desktop hardware is the past.

[gadster]

Originally posted by Apple_John:
<snip> 5% of PC market sale, it will nearly 100% increase in sale(and maybe profit). <snip>

Apple are about profitability first. Market share runs a (very) close second. If you sell on price, you die on price.

Besides, any margin on the x86 side would be eaten up by support.

[Sarc]

Originally posted by gadster:

Besides, any margin on the x86 side would be eaten up by support.

If anyone can pull a stunt like that, it's Apple. I think if they where to change the architecture they could build a successful computer using x86 as their processor. It would still be an Apple computer, never mind it's guts.

However if Apple released OS X to work with average Joe's Intel PC, then it would have very high support costs. But that's been discussed many, many times in these forums, and we all -sorta- know why it shouldn't be done.

[Mediaman_12]

There would be 2 ways for Apple to do this.
A, expensive: Design and manufacture lot's of the 'ancillary' parts (the motherboard, power supply etc.) themselves. using there experience with other Apple computers and design a Apple like case by not sticking rigidly to the ATX spec's they could end up with a very Apple Like PC. The downside being that it would also have to have a very Apple like price, to recoup the R&D.

B, cheap: Use off the shelf parts and create a 'Apple' ATX case to put them in. This way they could compete with other X86 makers, but it would have no perceived extra value.

There is no way Apple should get in to the mainstream 'commodity PC market'. There are really 2 parts to this market. One is the 'Business systems market' these people want value for money machines with solid 24hr tec support.
The other is the 'Home PC' market, in my mind this segment is on it's last legs. Every person I know with a home PC ether built it them selves, got someone they know to build it for them or got it from a small local store that build PC's. These all buy (reputable) OEM parts from the cheapest source (local PC parts 'wholesaler' or on line) and have almost zero overheads. These people can put together ether a bargain system for under a few hundred pounds, or sky's the limit. A big company, unless they offer (ether perceived or real) added value i.e. Sony, will struggle to compete on price with these people.

[Superchicken]

Apple makes money off the hardware, people buy it because of the software it runs. Period. They don't buy it because of the well designed cases only otherwise they could buy a sony and almost have as hip of a computer. No they want the total package which windows on an iMac would kill.