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badtz · Sep 15, 2007, 08:35 AM

Sometimes you get dialog boxes that require a click on "cancel" or "ok" (also when you install packages you have to click on those aqua buttons to get to the next screen) ...

Is there any way to invoke these via key strokes?

Sherman Homan · Sep 15, 2007, 08:42 AM

Absolutely yes... usually!
Apple and the period key together will usually cancel a dialog box. Hitting Enter or Return will usually give the OK button. It gets a little ugly when the dialog box comes up with Cancel as the default, highlighted button. Then you have to manually click OK, this is only found when the installer's developer dudes want you to really think twice about automatically running it.

Wiskedjak · Sep 15, 2007, 08:52 AM

This has always annoyed me. Windows has much better usability in this regard.

JKT · Sep 15, 2007, 09:47 AM

If you have full keyboard access on, the blue focus ring around the button indicates which will be depressed if you press the spacebar. Tab changes the focus.

JKT · Sep 15, 2007, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

This has always annoyed me. Windows has much better usability in this regard.

Um, no. It is just that the keyboard shortcuts for Windows dialogues are more self-evident. As well as FKA tab/spacebar you also have the following for selecting buttons in dialogues:

Escape = Cancel
Command-S = Save
Command-D = Don't Save
Command-O = Open

These shortcuts have been around since OS 7.5 at least iirc.

~bash $ · Sep 15, 2007, 10:01 AM

I actually agree that Windows keyboard navigation is better integrated. (That must be heresy around here!) However, the Universal Access discussed above gives you similar navigational ability. Prepare to be annoyed when every single toolbar item gets highlighted while you're <tab>ing through an app.

JKT · Sep 15, 2007, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by ~bash $

I actually agree that Windows keyboard navigation is better integrated. (That must be heresy around here!)

There's no disagreement with that at all. However, we aren't talking about navigation of the entire OS or an application's file menus, but of two or three buttons in dialogues and this has been just as easy in the Mac OS as it has in Windows for many, many years.

Wiskedjak · Sep 15, 2007, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by JKT

Um, no. It is just that the keyboard shortcuts for Windows dialogues are more self-evident.

self-evident = better usability

I've never found hidden and pro-user commands to equal good usability.

dimmer · Sep 15, 2007, 09:42 PM

And why does every control in Windows need to be keyboard activated? Because you can't assume everyone has a mouse. All Mac users can be assumed to have a mouse (or trackpad), so you don't need all of the ugly/crass little underscores in every control.

So it's not as if this was something that MS thought about and decided would be a good idea: it's just something they couldn't not do.

Also, the Windows UI Guidelines are never followed correctly, and many dialogs use "Yes" "No", others use "Cancel" and "Ok", others only have one control. And no, you can't assume the same keystrokes will do the same thing in different dialogs.

Full Keyboard Access gives any Mac user who needs it a similar function.

analogika · Sep 16, 2007, 06:10 AM

Cancel = Escape

The blue pulsing button always = Return or Enter.

With full keyboard control, as mentioned above, you get a blue halo around the button. Tab through to the one you want (Shift-Tab for the opposite direction) and hit Space bar.

The reasons full keyboard control isn't implemented the way it is on Windows are a) that the Windows way makes it too easy to do something destructive accidentally (D or S? Which did I just...?), and b) the key commands are not consistent - they depend upon the wording used by the programmer of the dialog box buttons, and upon the application's language.

Also, in Windows, you also have Cancel = Escape, but on the Mac, Return or Enter always select the non-destructive option.

JKT · Sep 16, 2007, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by dimmer

Also, the Windows UI Guidelines are never followed correctly, and many dialogs use "Yes" "No", others use "Cancel" and "Ok", others only have one control. And no, you can't assume the same keystrokes will do the same thing in different dialogs.

Unfortunately, there are also (too many) instances of this that have crept into OS X as well. E.g. Erase Junk mail in Apple's Mail presents a dialogue of Yes, No and Cancel instead of Erase, Don't Erase and Cancel; Erase Deleted Messages similarly uses Cancel and OK (so they aren't even consistent in their poor choice of wording!). iTunes presents another dialogue that is similarly poorly worded (though I forget what for) and there are examples of third party apps that are equally as bad (e.g. RapidWeaver 2.6 uses OK for a dialogue during publishing).

JKT · Sep 16, 2007, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

self-evident = better usability

I've never found hidden and pro-user commands to equal good usability.

Fair point, but you still have to learn what the underscores mean (and the keys required to access them in other aspects of the OS) in Windows to be able to use them. I would also call that a hidden and "pro"-user feature.

jbleisure · Sep 16, 2007, 07:39 AM

Apple and the period key together will usually cancel a dialog box.

Cancel = Escape

Amazing - thanks I never knew that.

Simon · Sep 16, 2007, 09:12 AM

I'd like to see them add cmd-1 to cmd-n to highlight buttons from left to right as a kind of 'hidden pro feature'. There are situations where I want to keep my hands on the keyboard and I can't because the stupid dialog forces me to use the mouse.

dimmer · Sep 16, 2007, 12:14 PM

The command 1 - Command n thing is interesting, but there should be a better way (having to count buttons, get the # of the button I want, then hit Cmd-whatever -- just not very visual.) Would greyed out buttons count? Plus what happens to a non-modal dialog box?

I can see a user hitting Cmd-n and not knowing what they just did and getting confused.

There was an application from OS 9 days that, when you hit the Cmd key, gave descriptions of keyboard equivalents on each of the controls. That was slick. And it didn't add much clutter either.

Wiskedjak · Sep 16, 2007, 12:32 PM

How about, when a dialog box show up, arrow keys can be use to toggle between buttons?

Simon · Sep 16, 2007, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

How about, when a dialog box show up, arrow keys can be use to toggle between buttons?

Simon · Sep 16, 2007, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by dimmer

The command 1 - Command n thing is interesting, but there should be a better way (having to count buttons, get the # of the button I want, then hit Cmd-whatever -- just not very visual.)

If you have many buttons that would indeed be a pain. I was thinking of my usual dialog which has two to three buttons max.

But of course there are dialogs that have more choices and then that solution would be somewhat messy. Anyway, I like Wiskedjak's idea of using arrow keys even better.

analogika · Sep 16, 2007, 04:35 PM

Tab to switch buttons and Space to select works just fine for me.

Wiskedjak · Sep 16, 2007, 05:10 PM

Tabbing to switch buttons doesn't work in Office and Adobe dialog boxes. However, Adobe and Microsoft were nice enough to add to MacOS usability by enabling Windows-style keyboard shortcuts (eg: 'D' for "Don't Save", 'C' for "Cancel", and 'S' for Save"). So, if I want to close a file but don't want to save it and I don't have my hand on my mouse, I can simply press 'D'.

Chuckit · Sep 16, 2007, 05:50 PM

Because command-D would have been so much more burdensome.

Wiskedjak · Sep 16, 2007, 10:12 PM

Less keystrokes are always better. Combination keystrokes are not good for non-pro users.

analogika · Sep 17, 2007, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Less keystrokes are always better. Combination keystrokes are not good for non-pro users.

Key control of dialog buttons is not good for non-pro users.

analogika · Sep 17, 2007, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Tabbing to switch buttons doesn't work in Office and Adobe dialog boxes. However, Adobe and Microsoft were nice enough to add to MacOS usability by enabling Windows-style keyboard shortcuts (eg: 'D' for "Don't Save", 'C' for "Cancel", and 'S' for Save"). So, if I want to close a file but don't want to save it and I don't have my hand on my mouse, I can simply press 'D'.

So because standard system functionality is BROKEN in Adobe applications, they added a NON-standard interface, and you think this is "usability" that improves the interface?

BTW, tabbing and then hitting space works just fine in my copy of Microsoft Word 2004. I don't have any Adobe apps, so I can't check that.

badtz · Sep 17, 2007, 04:16 AM

Example:

Type COMMAND + P

It will bring up the print dialog box

apple + period = allows you to cancel

enter = in this case, the print button is highlighted by default (this is not always the case though, an example of this would be in pkg installers. iLife, etc.)

is there any way to access PDF, PREVIEW, and SUPPLIES via keyboard shortcuts?

[thanks sherman for the apple + period tip, I never knew

]

analogika · Sep 17, 2007, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by badtz

Example:

Type COMMAND + P

It will bring up the print dialog box

apple + period = allows you to cancel

enter = in this case, the print button is highlighted by default (this is not always the case though, an example of this would be in pkg installers. iLife, etc.)

is there any way to access PDF, PREVIEW, and SUPPLIES via keyboard shortcuts?

Shift-Tab about five times (or forward-tab about twenty, thanks to Microsoft's non-standard print dialog).

Hit Space bar.

kuchiki · Sep 17, 2007, 11:29 AM

What also is a possibility is Steermouse. It's not exactly what the thread opener asked for but with Steermouse you can have your mouse cursor move automatically to the predefined button (whether it be OK, Cancel, Close button).

kuchiki

Brass · Sep 17, 2007, 06:05 PM

My favourite dialogue box is in a backup application I use at work. The text ends with the question, "OK to cancel?" and presents the buttons "OK" and "Cancel".

I've been using this application for 8 years, and it still confuses me every time that box appears (not often, thankfully)!

badtz · Sep 17, 2007, 07:25 PM

Here's another one:

When you enter your username/password on a website with safari with Keychain enabled.

It'll pop up a message asking to save your username/password with the options: Never for this website, Not Now, Yes.

Default is on YES, but what if I want to choose one of the other options without the mouse?

Wiskedjak · Sep 17, 2007, 08:30 PM

These are all perfect examples. Good usability is an easter-egg in MacOS.

analogika · Sep 17, 2007, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by badtz

Here's another one:

When you enter your username/password on a website with safari with Keychain enabled.

It'll pop up a message asking to save your username/password with the options: Never for this website, Not Now, Yes.

Default is on YES, but what if I want to choose one of the other options without the mouse?

Works PERFECTLY using Tab and space.

analogika · Sep 17, 2007, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

These are all perfect examples. Good usability is an easter-egg in MacOS.

What are you talking about?

*Consistency* is the number one principle in usability.

I have yet to find a single example where the built-in tab/shift-tab/space navigation won't work.

Brass's example is one of stupidly labeled dialog buttons. How does that in any way relate to being able to use keyboard short-cuts to select them? (I'll answer that for you: It *doesn't*. At all.)

Chuckit · Sep 17, 2007, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

These are all perfect examples. Good usability is an easter-egg in MacOS.

It depends on your perspective. In absolute terms, Mac OS X has some usability problems. Compared to every other operating system on the planet, Mac OS X is fantastic.

Brass · Sep 17, 2007, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

What are you talking about?

*Consistency* is the number one principle in usability.

I have yet to find a single example where the built-in tab/shift-tab/space navigation won't work.

Brass's example is one of stupidly labeled dialog buttons. How does that in any way relate to being able to use keyboard short-cuts to select them? (I'll answer that for you: It *doesn't*. At all.)

Agreed. My example wasn't even a Mac OS X example... it was for some commercial software I use under Solaris. As as you correctly said, I was only presenting it as an example of stupid button labelling. Was supposed to be funny.

Simon · Sep 18, 2007, 03:12 AM

In Safari hit cmd-p to print and then try to hit the 'Preview' button w/o using the mouse. Why cmd-arrows can't change the button focus is beyond me. Usability? Nope.

TETENAL · Sep 18, 2007, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

Why cmd-arrows can't change the button focus is beyond me. Usability? Nope.

Because the tab-key changes the button focus. What's your problem?

Simon · Sep 18, 2007, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Because the tab-key changes the button focus. What's your problem?

The problem is that that doesn't work. Tab moves the cursor to the next text entry field ("Copies" -> "From" -> "To" etc.). It has no influence at all on the selected buttons.

TETENAL · Sep 18, 2007, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

The problem is that that doesn't work. Tab moves the cursor to the next text entry field ("Copies" -> "From" -> "To" etc.). It has no influence at all on the selected buttons.

It has already been mentioned that Full Keyboard access has to be turned on (System Preferences->Keyboard & Mouse->Keyboard Shortcuts->Full keyboard access->All controls). It definitely works.

Kevin · Sep 18, 2007, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I've never found hidden and pro-user commands to equal good usability.

Hidden? Pro User?

analogika · Sep 18, 2007, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

In Safari hit cmd-p to print and then try to hit the 'Preview' button w/o using the mouse. Why cmd-arrows can't change the button focus is beyond me. Usability? Nope.

Yes? I just tried it?

I hit Cmd-P and tabbed five times, then hit the down arrow and selected "Print to PDF" with the space bar.

Is there some point you're making that I'm missing?

What's this blather about Cmd-arrows? Turn on keyboard access and tab through!

jbleisure · Sep 18, 2007, 05:56 PM

I hit Cmd-P and tabbed five times, then hit the down arrow and selected "Print to PDF" with the space bar.

I just tried it too. It definitely works but I had to go into system preference and turn on full keyboard access. Man, I just learned that after switching nearly 3 years ago......I often wondered why you couldn't do it!!

badtz · Sep 18, 2007, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

It has already been mentioned that Full Keyboard access has to be turned on (System Preferences->Keyboard & Mouse->Keyboard Shortcuts->Full keyboard access->All controls). It definitely works.

that's not convenient, because with that turned on, you have to tab through ALL of the fields (many of which I'll never want). In this dialog that might not be the case, but in many others, it would take too many tabs to get to where I need it to be.

analogika · Sep 19, 2007, 03:01 AM

Shift-Tab goes the opposite way, which often helps, but yes - I often find it more convenient to move my index finger 10 cm to the trackpad in complex dialog boxes .

Simon · Sep 19, 2007, 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

What's this blather about Cmd-arrows?

There's no be to rude.

The point is that full keyboard access requires you to tab through all GUI elements be that text entry fields, buttons or menus (just as badtz pointed out above). The cmd-arrows suggestion would allow you to specifically switch the focus on buttons alone. Tab for entry fields would remain the way it is. This is a suggestion for an improvement in Leopard. It's a simple discussion. Nobody is being forced to do anything.

himself · Sep 19, 2007, 06:43 PM

There are some apps (in particular, some from Bare Bones Software) that will show you the keyboard equivalent when you hold down command. This option appears to be something that the developer has to add themselves, but it would be good if it was automatically available system wide. A lot of apps in the OS 7-9 days had this functionality.