[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

ISeeing how it would be easy for him to authorize that every document pertinent to his birth be released to ensure that HE is NOT HIDING SOMETHING, he's giving the kooks a weapon to use against him.

If this is a weapon, then it seems more like a koosh ball. I say fire away. The idea that you simultaneously profess that you are "not that concerned with his citizenship" yet insist that Obama somehow needs to satisfy a handful of crazy people to prove his "transparency" is what makes this thread approach classic™ status. Apparently he's been transparent enough to satisfy you. If the only people who think you are hiding something are nuts who will by every standard of a conspiracy theory never be satisfied, then you are already being sufficiently transparent.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Hahaha.


The fact is that whether the original birth certificate was officially referred to as a "long form" or something else is a game of semantics. The fact that semantic games are necessary also points to something being hidden. All the "evidence" as provided by OAW above does is explain that NOW they just give out the digital copy of what they have in their computer files, and it's "official". The fact is, back when Obama was born, another more detailed official document was put together and this is what has been requested to be released. Normally, this contains additional information like where the mother and father resided, their religious beliefs and more. I don't believe this information is taken anymore, but it was when Obama was born. I know it's contained on my own original birth certificate and I was born after Obama. This is all information which could be used to verify if Obama, his mother and his father where were they claimed back at the time of his birth. This can't be determined on the newer digital certification.

Quite frankly, you are being deliberately obtuse here. Let's review some relevant statements from the article again because you seem to be have some reading comprehension difficulties here:

Answer: No, you can't obtain a "certificate of live birth" anymore.

The state Department of Health no longer issues copies of paper birth certificates as was done in the past, said spokeswoman Janice Okubo.

The department only issues "certifications" of live births, and that is the "official birth certificate" issued by the state of Hawaii, she said.

And, it's only available in electronic form.

So pay attention now. It says that Hawaii DOES NOT ISSUE paper birth certificates. At all. Long form, short form, any form. Where do you see a caveat or fine print that says "... unless authorized by the subject of the certification"? You don't. So this "Obama could end all this by authorizing Hawaii to release the original birth certificate" argument is totally bogus because the State of Hawaii does not do this. Period.

"At that time, all information for births from 1908 (on) was put into electronic files for consistent reporting," she said.

Now what did that say? ALL INFORMATION was put into electronic files. Not "some information". So this argument that a "more detailed official document" exists also doesn't hold water.

Okubo also emphasized the certification form "contains all the information needed by all federal government agencies for transactions requiring a birth certificate."

She added that the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized the state's current certification of live birth "as an official birth certificate meeting all federal and other requirements."

So the State of Hawaii has certified that Obama was born in Hawaii. The Supreme Court has said that the State of Hawaii's procedures meet federal requirements for an "official birth certificate". So again ... that's the end of the discussion unless you can provide some sort of evidence that the Hawaii officials are lying. At least for the reasonable people it is.

Finally ... ask yourself this question. Given the "controversy" surrounding this issue don't you find it a bit "odd" that if some "more detailed original birth certificate" existed for Obama ... one that shows that he wasn't born in Hawaii ... that someone working in that department for the State of Hawaii hasn't released it already? I mean after all ... it has been 4 years since all of this came up. Do trust and believe that somebody has access to such a document if it even exists. And they could make a small fortune by releasing a copy to the news media ... especially the conservative news media. But this hasn't happened. Imagine that.

OAW

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

My point wasn't whether or not he's a citizen, rather that he's chosen a route which is NOT transparent, and which makes it look like he's trying to hide something.

It makes it look like he is trying to hide something only to those people who don't believe the statements from the government officials in Hawai'i.

To "regular folks" who accept the statements made by the Hawai'i Department of Health, the fact Obama has not released the "long form" birth certificate is inconsequential, and more important, irrelevant.

[besson3c]

I have to admire stupendousman's persistance here, he's like a little energizer bunny!

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I have to admire stupendousman's persistance here, he's like a little energizer bunny!

<serious, non-sarcastic mode>
Oh, he's good for debating. That's for sure. He can say the same thing 20 different ways and force you to refute him 20 different ways. Not like some others on here who just say the same thing over and over and over again.
</serious, non-sarcastic mode>

[Wiskedjak]

So, the document they're asking for doesn't exist, and if Obama doesn't produce this non existant document it proves that he wasn't born in Hawaii?

I say remove citizenship from every person born in Hawaii. clearly, the state is either too corrupt or too incompetant to be trusted to have corrected documented anyone's birth properly.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Of course, we get no answer, which is what someone does who doesn't want something found out.

or, what someone does when they don't want to encourage the behavior of extremists

[besson3c]

How do we really know that Hawaii is even a state? Have we seen the actual long form document certifying it as a bonafide state, or does Obama not want us to see that too for some reason? You have to wonder about why he doesn't want us to see this document.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How do we really know that Hawaii is even a state? Have we seen the actual long form document certifying it as a bonafide state, or does Obama not want us to see that too for some reason? You have to wonder about why he doesn't want us to see this document.

OMG! That didn't even occur to me!

You know what else? Why won't Obama release the long form document proving that aliens don't exist and that he hasn't been collaborating with them to have the human race subjugated by the Galactic Leftist Communist Nazis.

*Clearly* he's got something to hide there!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

OMG! That didn't even occur to me!

You know what else? Why won't Obama release the long form document proving that aliens don't exist and that he hasn't been collaborating with them to have the human race subjugated by the Galactic Leftist Communist Nazis.

*Clearly* he's got something to hide there!

The fact that there is no Wikipedia entry for the GLCN speaks volumes to how Obama and the mainstream media (who is in bed with the Wikipedia) has complete control over the lives of Americans.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

If this is a weapon, then it seems more like a koosh ball. I say fire away. The idea that you simultaneously profess that you are "not that concerned with his citizenship" yet insist that Obama somehow needs to satisfy a handful of crazy people to prove his "transparency" is what makes this thread approach classic™ status.

What is absurd is the notion that there are people who just want a public record released, Obama refuses and instead attacks them as crazy, all the while making big claims about "transparency." I could care less if Obama is a hypocrite who attacks his critics instead of being open and honest. I expect no less of him.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by OAW 

So pay attention now. It says that Hawaii DOES NOT ISSUE paper birth certificates.

The same as most other states. If I go to the state I was born, they will give me a digital certificate with less information as well. However, there are procedures that are available to access the original document if necessary. The idea though that there is a public vital record on file in Hawaii that is impossible for the President of the United States to get access to isn't just obtuse, it's absurd.

The response you keep posting as "evidence" is a carefully worded and crafted statement aimed at misdirection. Nothing contained in it is untrue, but nothing contained in it answers whether the document created at the time of Obama's birth still exists, and can be accessed if a specific request is made, like what can be done in most other states.

To show how silly this obfuscation is, I decided to do a quick google search to see the difference between the official birth "certificate" (long form) and "certification"(short form). You can find a run-down at the link below. The guy whose site that is pretty much takes the same stance as I do, that while Obama may be a citizen there has to be a reason he's refusing to allow the release of the document in question.

http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/200...e-lying-still/

So the State of Hawaii has certified that Obama was born in Hawaii.

Just as CBS certified that George W. Bush didn't serve as required.

Just as the Warren Commission certified Oswald was a lone nut killer, even though they had evidence at the time (and the falsified evidence as part of a cover up) that there was CIA involvement. It took how many years for the government to acknowledge that there was a likely conspiracy and for ex-CIA'ers to start making deathbed confessions that they had previous knowledge of the plot?

I doubt the documents in question are forged though, but others aren't so trusting for obvious reasons. It would take one person to enter an official record for Obama into Hawaii's birth record database, so it seems to make most sense to "trust, but verify". It would be easy to just nip this in the bud and release the full records. For some reason, Obama doesn't want to take the easy route.

The Supreme Court has said that the State of Hawaii's procedures meet federal requirements for an "official birth certificate".

Which is all that's required legally, which is why Obama will never authorize the release of something that might give more information. No one's suggested that if he doesn't authorize the release of his original birth records that he's in violation of the law. Being a hypocrite and dishonest doesn't always require legal action.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

So, the document they're asking for doesn't exist, and if Obama doesn't produce this non existant document it proves that he wasn't born in Hawaii?

Why would the state of Hawaii destroy it's original vital records? I'm pretty sure there are laws which require them to keep them.

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

so, basically, there is nothing that could convince you that he was born in the US, even though you lack any evidence suggesting he wasn't born in the US.

So basically, without evidence you believe him? What kind of track record does he have? What kind of track record does his parents have?

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Man, I'm really sorry to be so harsh, I like you and stuff, but do realize how incredibly bad you are at debating? Have you noticed that you are often the subject of mockery because of this? It's not like I'm perfect, I suck at times too, but is it not evident yet that it isn't a good idea to make such incredibly bold statements without some form of argument, evidence, or something with substance?

Just be careful the next time you ramble on about the left being all emotional about everything, because surely some will remember posts like this and shove this back in your face.

For the record, more than half the time when I argue with you it's just because of your incredibly lazy intellectual approach. I'm more interested in accuracy and good argument than I am in agreeing with you. You need to start paying attention to the way ebuddy writes.

I boil it down to YES or NO type questions. Lets see here.... I said:

It's not like his parents were normal. They were radical leftists without any respect of the US or it's way of government.
-DO YOU DISAGREE?

A Certificate of live birth only means a baby has been presented.
Again..DO YOU DISAGREE?

Hawaii trusted the words of the radicals.
DO you disagree?

There is the problem.

[BadKosh]

YouTube - Michelle Obama Admits Kenya is Barack Hussein Obama's Home Country

Was she lying? Why would she lie about this?

[Doofy]

Now, I don't give a toss where Barry was born or what kind of mess he gets the US into. But I'd like to point out a couple of facts to you guys:

1) He's a politician.
2) He's a lawyer.

How on earth can anyone accuse a member of the two most trustworthy occupations in the entire history of the planet of being deceitful? Really, it beggars belief.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

So basically, without evidence you believe him? What kind of track record does he have? What kind of track record does his parents have?

What kind of track record is held by those claiming Obama wasn't born in the US?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Just as CBS certified that George W. Bush didn't serve as required.

A TV network = a US state?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

I boil it down to YES or NO type questions. Lets see here.... I said:

It's not like his parents were normal. They were radical leftists without any respect of the US or it's way of government.
-DO YOU DISAGREE?

A Certificate of live birth only means a baby has been presented.
Again..DO YOU DISAGREE?

Hawaii trusted the words of the radicals.
DO you disagree?

There is the problem.

Many (even some Republicans) would consider the Birthers to be rather "radical".

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

What is absurd is the notion that there are people who just want a public record released, Obama refuses and instead attacks them as crazy, all the while making big claims about "transparency." I could care less if Obama is a hypocrite who attacks his critics instead of being open and honest. I expect no less of him.

He's attacking these people? Seems more like he's assiduously ignoring them.

To repeat:
Apparently he's been transparent enough to satisfy you. If the only people who think you are hiding something are nuts who will by every standard of a conspiracy theory never be satisfied, then you are already being sufficiently transparent.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Now, I don't give a toss where Barry was born or what kind of mess he gets the US into. But I'd like to point out a couple of facts to you guys:

1) He's a politician.
2) He's a lawyer.

How on earth can anyone accuse a member of the two most trustworthy occupations in the entire history of the planet of being deceitful? Really, it beggars belief.

Healthy skepticism is good, but the issue here is that some people apparently believe without any evidence that staff (not politicians) of the government of Hawaii are involved in a massive cover-up, not just that Obama might be deceitful. That's unhealthy skepticism, bordering on a pathological obsession common to many conspiracy theorists.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

A Certificate of live birth only means a baby has been presented.
Again..DO YOU DISAGREE?

There is the problem.

Are you saying that everyone with only a certificate of love birth should have their citizenship investigated?

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

YouTube - Michelle Obama Admits Kenya is Barack Hussein Obama's Home Country

Was she lying? Why would she lie about this?

This is grasping at straws. Many people refer to the country of their ancestors as the homeland.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

What kind of track record is held by those claiming Obama wasn't born in the US?

They are all upstanding moral Americans fighting to uphold the constitution, also they are batshit insane and not worth a single second of our (very busy) president's time.

Bush stole the election, Barry wasn't born in the US...I can only assume the next group of nutcases will claim our next president is a space zombie or something retarded.

[BadKosh]

Very busy giving another state dinner at your expense.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Bush stole the election, Barry wasn't born in the US...I can only assume the next group of nutcases will claim our next president is a space zombie or something retarded.

I would like to see Obama prove that he isn't a space zombie.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

I would like to see Obama prove that he isn't a space zombie.

Space hawaii will only certify that someone is not dead, but not undead.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Very busy giving another state dinner at your expense.

...and that is somehow supposed to counter my statement of wasting the President's time with useless whacko BS?

Jesus christ.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

I would like to see Obama prove that he isn't a space zombie.

The fact that he has yet to release the documentation proving my previous statement false shows that he is hiding something.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

I boil it down to YES or NO type questions. Lets see here.... I said:

It's not like his parents were normal. They were radical leftists without any respect of the US or it's way of government.
-DO YOU DISAGREE?

A Certificate of live birth only means a baby has been presented.
Again..DO YOU DISAGREE?

Hawaii trusted the words of the radicals.
DO you disagree?

There is the problem.

The problem is that I haven't expressed disagreement with your wild and baseless claims?

[besson3c]

I'm just putting this out there.... Galactic Communist Leftist Nazis (GCLN), and Space Zombies (SZ).... You never see them in the same room at the same time, do you? Could it be that SZs are Clark Kenting our asses?

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The problem is that I haven't expressed disagreement with your wild and baseless claims?

Besson3c = Birther??? Naaaaaaaa.

[besson3c]

Yes, I'm secretly a birther, but don't tell anybody. Before you know it the secret will also get out there that eating baby carrots can make you gay!

[besson3c]

BadK0sh: how do you know that I'm not secretly a galactic communist leftist nazi space zombie?

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

He's attacking these people? Seems more like he's assiduously ignoring them.

No one is ignoring them. Not the Obama administration who mocks them while refusing a simple request for information, or his supporters. This thread is pretty damning evidence of this.

To repeat:
Apparently he's been transparent enough to satisfy you.

He's opaque. The problem I have isn't whether or not he's a legal citizen (though others do), because he's provided what is necessary to deem him as such. The problem I have is that he's choosing to hide some pretty basic information, then ridiculing those who have asked him to simply authorize it's release. That's pretty much the opposite of transparent. It isn't illegal to be a dishonest hypocrite, but there's no harm in pointing out his poor form.

[besson3c]

stupendousman: if you want to make the point that he isn't transparent enough, why not pick your battles and keep a clear distance from this issue? It's not a particularly good example, nor is it wise to associate with a radical, borderline crazy group like this, no?

Then again, I've been suggesting that you pick your battles for ages. The "anything and everything Obama = bad" route has its limitations, ya know...

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

No one is ignoring them. Not the Obama administration who mocks them while refusing a simple request for information, or his supporters. This thread is pretty damning evidence of this.

Can you cite examples of this behavior? I don't think threads on MacNN really illustrate the priorities of the Obama Administration.

He's opaque. The problem I have isn't whether or not he's a legal citizen (though others do), because he's provided what is necessary to deem him as such. The problem I have is that he's choosing to hide some pretty basic information, then ridiculing those who have asked him to simply authorize it's release. That's pretty much the opposite of transparent. It isn't illegal to be a dishonest hypocrite, but there's no harm in pointing out his poor form.

No, he has released the relevant "pretty basic information," as illustrated by the bolded part of your post. It's not hypocritical to ignore people calling for more information when what has already been released satisfies their concerns. Obama's pledge to be more "transparent" is not an opening for people to demand whatever information they see fit. Should I have a right to demand any personal information about Obama simply because he said he wants to be more transparent? Of course not. There is such a thing as "transparent enough." Your choice to use this issue to "call out" the administration on a complete non-issue speaks volumes about your own poor form.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

The same as most other states. If I go to the state I was born, they will give me a digital certificate with less information as well. However, there are procedures that are available to access the original document if necessary. The idea though that there is a public vital record on file in Hawaii that is impossible for the President of the United States to get access to isn't just obtuse, it's absurd.

And where is your evidence of said procedure in the State of Hawaii? The Hawaii official said that Hawaii DOES NOT release "paper copies" of birth certificates. Hawaii DOES NOT issue "certificates" ... it ONLY issues "certifications". And that this is only available ELECTRONICALLY. Period!!!

So until you can provide evidence ..... not supposition .... of this "backdoor" procedure to do what Hawaii has explicitly said it DOES NOT DO .....

OAW

[DrTacoMD]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

BadK0sh: how do you know that I'm not secretly a galactic communist leftist nazi space zombie?

I can't speak for BadKosh, but I know for a fact that you aren't. I haven't seen you at the past several galactic communist leftist nazi space zombie meetings.

Or did you not know that we moved our meeting time? Yeah, it's at the conference center on Thursdays at 7 PM now.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

stupendousman: if you want to make the point that he isn't transparent enough, why not pick your battles and keep a clear distance from this issue? It's not a particularly good example, nor is it wise to associate with a radical, borderline crazy group like this, no?

Then again, I've been suggesting that you pick your battles for ages. The "anything and everything Obama = bad" route has its limitations, ya know...

That makes little sense. Here is a clear area where Obama is refusing transparency, and clearly trying to hide something. Why should it be "off limits"? Does it make you uncomfortable that he's hiding something? Does make you a little queasy that he could easily end all the speculation and be able to say "I've done all I could" but refuses to?

I figure so.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

A TV network = a US state?

Yeah. FOX News = Texas, NPR = California, etc.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by OAW 

And where is your evidence of said procedure in the State of Hawaii? The Hawaii official said that Hawaii DOES NOT release "paper copies" of birth certificates. Hawaii DOES NOT issue "certificates" ... it ONLY issues "certifications". And that this is only available ELECTRONICALLY. Period!!!

At some point, you just have to sit back and laugh at people. This is really one of those points....

Is it really your argument that the President of the United States, the head of the Executive Branch of Government of the United States, with the power to cause the release and declassification of top secret information of utmost importance to national security and world history, can't get a guy in a small state's vital statistics department to go down to the archives, crank up the microfiche machine, and get a copy of his original birth certificate for public release?

Is that really your argument? Obama's hands are tide because Hawaii doesn't have a policy in place to print out old, official birth certificates which have been archived? Really?

It's no wonder the "birthers" are suspicious if this is the level of pablum that they are facing in getting this most basic information and getting refused.

Again, while they don't do it as a matter of normal procedure, I guarantee you there IS a procedure to have it done. Otherwise, genealogists and other historians would likely have a sh#t fit over such a restrictive policy over public historical records.

The idea that the most powerful man in the world can't get a photo copy of his original birth certificate really is too much humor for me to bear.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

At some point, you just have to sit back and laugh at people. This is really one of those points...

Yep. I was laughing at you when you tried to equate a certification by the state of Hawaii with a certification by CBS.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Is it really your argument that the President of the United States, the head of the Executive Branch of Government of the United States, with the power to cause the release and declassification of top secret information of utmost importance to national security and world history, can't get a guy in a small state's vital statistics department to go down to the archives, crank up the microfiche machine, and get a copy of his original birth certificate for public release?

Is that really your argument? Obama's hands are tide because Hawaii doesn't have a policy in place to print out old, official birth certificates which have been archived? Really?

Is it really *your* argument that:
1. the state of Hawaii and Obama's parents conspired at his birth to falsify his true location of birth so that he could one day steal the Presidency from Sarah Palin?
2. the US electoral system is so incompetent that it couldn't verify that Obama met the qualifications necessary to hold the office of President?
3. if one document could be falsified by the state of Hawaii that another one couldn't be?

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Yep. I was laughing at you when you tried to equate a certification by the state of Hawaii with a certification by CBS.

I wasn't trying to "equate" them. I was trying to point out that humans make mistakes, or can be corrupted. It doesn't matter if they are "respectable" and work for CBS or the Hawaii Dept. of Vital Statistics.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Is it really *your* argument that:
1. the state of Hawaii and Obama's parents conspired at his birth to falsify his true location of birth so that he could one day steal the Presidency from Sarah Palin?

No, but you already know that from reading these posts. Why do you find it necessary to regurgitate questions you know the answers to? Too much time on your hands?

2. the US electoral system is so incompetent that it couldn't verify that Obama met the qualifications necessary to hold the office of President?

Whether or not this is true has no bearing on Obama's lack of transparency and dishonesty.

3. if one document could be falsified by the state of Hawaii that another one couldn't be?

True. But, at least if he authorized the release of all pertinent documents he could claim that he did everything he could to answer in regards to the controversy. Instead, he's decided to decline transparency and keep something hidden.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

I wasn't trying to "equate" them. I was trying to point out that humans make mistakes, or can be corrupted. It doesn't matter if they are "respectable" and work for CBS or the Hawaii Dept. of Vital Statistics.

So, you're suggesting that the Hawaii Dept. of Vital Statistics made a mistake with Obama's record of birth or forged them?

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

So, you're suggesting that the Hawaii Dept. of Vital Statistics made a mistake with Obama's record of birth or forged them?

No, but others have, and Obama refuses to authorize the release of the document in question so that those who have doubts can verify it's authenticity themselves. Not exactly what someone who doesn't have something to hide does.

Have you read this thread, or is English your second language?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

No, but others have, and Obama refuses to authorize the release of the document in question so that those who have doubts can verify it's authenticity themselves. Not exactly what someone who doesn't have something to hide does.

Have you read this thread, or is English your second language?

What is the document in question?