[♥]

American dollars are now officially junk worldwide. No one wants them.

I've been saying that this country is bankrupt for the last two years. The majority of people in this country are overextended or bankrupt, officially or unofficially, and the banks are in the same situation. (Before some of you contradict that statement ask yourself how much debt you have in debt, mortgage, and credit cards and if so, why isn't your debt and your credit cards paid off? Why do you have credit at all?)

The lack of concern by this administration for the past 7 years insofar as the financial sectors and banking are concerned is astounding. In fact, my opinion is that George Bush led them by the hand to the current subprime disaster by looking the other way when it was becoming apparent that there was a problem. And I remember when he, along with the banking institutions and their lobbyists, merrily did away with bankruptcy in the traditional sense wherein people's debts were dissolved and now people are forced to only reorganize and repay their debts in other ways. (Hint: If a person cannot pay off current credit card debt monthly he or she still cannot pay it off no matter how federal bankruptcy judges want to reapportion it.) With that sense of security, knowing that bankruptcy was effectively outlawed, banks extended credit at ever increasing rates. It was like a credit free-for-all and it astounds me that the banks and financial institutions are only now realizing the frivolity of their business practices regarding credit.

Meanwhile, the price of a barrel of oil and an ounce of gold aren't necessarily going up that much, it's just that the dollar is falling rapidly in value and it looks worse.

The silence in Washington is deafening. So many retail stores are filing for bankruptcy, some that used to be bustling and now are so quiet that you could hear a pin drop in them. Down here in Florida the rumor is that Office Depot is getting ready to file for bankruptcy - their vendors aren't even restocking the Office Depot shelves with their products because they are currently owed so much money already.

And I believe that this is the tip of the iceberg. Not only is there a recession, but some are talking about a depression.

I'm not surprised that people do not want the dollar any longer.

I'm venting because although I'm a conservative, I don't always agree with the policies and direction of my own party. It makes me sad that our country's crown is now tarnished.

[Dork.]

I thought we weren't supposed to be making Official Threads anymore?

I gave up on America a long time ago and invested a good chunk of my retirement money overseas. F*ck Yeah!

[Doofy]

Got news for ya: The United States has been bankrupt since Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act back in 1913.

[♥]

I didn't know about any ban on official threads so sorry.

Guess I'm not here enough to know that. It's not "The Official America is Bankrupt Thread" anyway. (In other words, I'm not personally making an official thread, I'm just saying that it's finally become official that America is broke.)

Anyway, just read that Bush still refuses to do anything about the worsening crises.

WASHINGTON -- Amid new signs of financial turmoil, the Bush administration Thursday raised the prospect of tighter regulation of U.S. financial markets. But it once again stopped short of the step its critics are demanding -- sweeping government intervention in the worsening economic crisis.

For weeks, it has been clear that the administration would have to offer new initiatives to offset fears that America's credit system could lock up. Around the world, financial markets have gyrated. The domestic economy has shown new signs of recession. And congressional leaders have pushed ahead with plans for decisive government action.

But the package of proposals unveiled with much fanfare by the Treasury Department on Thursday was in large measure a call for greater self-policing by the financial industry.

Isn't that practice of self-regulation what got us into all of this trouble in the first place? It's like keeping a fox in the hen house and telling him to behave himself after he's already killed chickens in the past.

Doofy, I know that there are folks that believe that, yes. It falls in line with why social insecurity (AKA social security) was invented. You could probably educate a lot of us about economics, also, I know. (I remember that financial history from many collegiate years ago.)

However, in the present here and now there is nothing being done that denotes that this administration truly wants to stave off a worsening crisis; America may be the axis but the crisis will be global and it seems to me that other countries are taking this situation more seriously than our own government.

[Big Mac]

Don't quit your day job to become an economist, ♥.

[osiris]

I hate this topic, but you're right. No one seems to talk about it here.

I do have a few thoughts to add, in somewhat annoying rant format, but I don't care:

You have to take into account the Euro (and a unified Europe); the move in oil trade to Euros, and all the greedy bastards who dismantled American manufacturing, allowed real estate to be become incredibly overvalued, and dumbed down the entire educational system whilst the surrounding infracture rots as far as the eye can see.

And the borrowing - not just the consumer (which has really taken the shaft thanks to the credit industry's lobby to change bankruptcy laws & the huge change in the way the credit industry charges interest to consumers) but also businesses on the scale of Bank of America are being given Corporate Welfare thanks to the American taxpayer. (Uncle Sam just printed another 200 billion just for BA)

And the wars, and the largest military budget in the history of the world urgently needs to be halved.

I think it's the perfect setup for a new currency, mass buyout by the wealthy, and enslavement of the poor.

Anyway, I think that if you're an American, you allowed all this to happen. It is your fault.

[♥]

I'm not an economist and never claimed to be, Big Mac. I'm a concerned conservative.

Because I'm not an economist I posted links to articles that state the same assertions I'm making...and some of them are economists.

[osiris]

It doesn't take an economist to understand this stuff. Really.

[Big Mac]

If you're so concerned, educate yourself. All you are by posting crap threads like this one is a chicken little.

[Doofy]

I recommend that anyone here who doesn't know how the banking system works should go have a look at all five parts of this:

YouTube - 1. Corrupt Banking System - Cartels Robbing the Public

The system is *designed* to collapse. And there's no way out. The only thing you can do is insulate yourself personally from the poopstorm that'll be shortly arriving.

[♥]

I feel vindicated that Doofy agrees with me about this stuff.

Four years ago I paid off every single credit card that I had and it was painful.

But today I'm thankful every single day that I don't have credit card bill dread when I get my mail.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

If you're so concerned, educate yourself. All you are by posting crap threads like this one is a chicken little.

I believe education is what brought some of us to this viewpoint.

[OldManMac]

Don't worry, it'll be fixed soon.

washingtonpost.com

[turtle777]

I don't know why ya'll are so negative.

If the $ drop conitnues, we'll be cheaper than China soon.
THAT'll boost our exports and help the economy

-t

[♥]

Wow. I'm watching Doofy's link and it's incredible: Debt is the only "money" that banks and governments actually have and the money is created by the banks themselves as they make up credit for borrowers and debtors and not by government mints.

Everyone should watch the link Doofy supplied and the movie Maxed Out to get an idea of where this economy really is.

GREAT LINK, DOOFY.

[Big Mac]

And you think you have a basis to comment on the economy.

[♥]

Me? You're asking me if I think I have a basis to comment on the economy?

<looks around>

Unless I'm kicked out of MacNN and unless the Right to Free Speech (and thereby opinion) has been revoked I believe I do have a basis to comment on the economy, yes.

Like I said, I'm a concerned citizen and am voicing my concerns. (Is something wrong with that?)

[♥]

OldManMac, your link basically reiterates what the L.A. Times says which is that, yes, they are making noise about "a fix", but the truth is that it's only noise and there is no real government intervention and real enforced restructuring on the books...additionally, the government is essentially telling these same banks and financial institutions that got themselves into this mess to be self-policing and get themselves out of it.

That is no real solution and certainly not confidence-inspiring, at least not to me.

Then again after watching Doofy's links I'm not sure that the government has any ability to fix the situation either.

I heard of an idea where banks and lenders who provided overpriced mortgages would be required to reduce the amount of a loan by percentages up to 30%, or automatically freeze ARMs and not allow them to roll over thus becoming financial time bombs, and I think both ideas have some validity, especially the latter. That would require the government to make it a law and apparently government isn't going to - again, the refusal of the government to actually DO anything to assuage the situation is disturbing.

It seems to me that banks would NOT want to be amassing real estate through foreclosures, but apparently they want to because it seems suspicious to me that lenders aren't simply freezing their own ARMs and offering alternatives to folks who hold loans with them...why aren't they offering to freeze ARMS and subprime loans themselves? Because if an ARM rolls over and blows up and the person goes into bankruptcy or walks away and takes a foreclosure instead, then the bank ends up with the property.

Maybe this is all a ploy by banks to amass real estate, real property amassed through the suffering of hapless people who really believed that they'd be living the American dream of home ownership by taking the dangling ARM carrot held out by banks, because the banks knew that they'd end up with the property in the end?

Hmm...

[♥]

How apropos: Mr. Bush is now having an emergency television pitch to calm the market now that Bear Sterns is teetering on bankruptcy and is out of cash.

Points from Mr. Bush:

"We're getting ready to send out emergency checks that should be in your mailboxes about the middle of May."

"There's no such thing as fixin' a loan anymore, but we can help some folks who are credit worthy to refinance...we're going to get people 30-day extensions in the form of a grace period so that they have time to refinance."

"Problem is, people aren't responding to the more than a million letters sent out to people that are offering help to folks for refinancing."

"We are not going to react by overreacting with government regulation."

Hmmm...

1. The "emergency checks" aren't going to help when gasoline is $5 a gallon, Mr. Bush.
2. 30-day extensions aren't going to help people come up with the money for an exploding ARM that means that they pay a mortgage and not credit cards or pay credit cards and not the mortgage.
3. I don't know where the supposed "refinance letters" are going...never got one myself. (Anyone else?) I have a feeling that Mr. Bush simply 'encouraged' lenders to send the letters and again, that is the fox policing the hen house - they have no real incentive to do so.
4. Of course the government isn't getting involved - that's been the modus operandus all along.

And now he's making the speech partisan by mentioning that Congress is going to make the economy much worse because of how "[the Congress] wants to raise taxes."

And now he's talking about free trade...

Is that why Boeing workers are losing jobs because the Pentagon sent our aircraft purchase to Airbus in France instead of keeping work here at home?

"I guess government policy is like driving a car in a rough patch...it's important not to over correct because you'll end up in the ditch."

Yep, sounds like a used car salesman there, Mr. Bush. Now he's cracking jokes - Bush trademark for avoidance.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by ♥ 

I feel vindicated that Doofy agrees with me about this stuff.

Four years ago I paid off every single credit card that I had and it was painful.

But today I'm thankful every single day that I don't have credit card bill dread when I get my mail.

Part of the problem is that many folks don't feel dread when they get their bill. It's simply a large number on paper, nobody really expects them to PAY that, right? right?



guys?

[Chuckit]

What do you want the President to do? Wave his magical President Wand? He's partly to blame for the hole we're in, but that doesn't give him the power to go back in time and fix things.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by osiris 

I believe education is what brought some of us to this viewpoint.

And who has the lock on the education system?
To which party does the teacher's union always deliver their vote?

And folks of which political persuasion raised holy hell when Steve Jobs had the temerity, the unmitigated nerve to criticize the education system?

Curious, this education thing you mention.

[♥]

What do you want the President to do? Wave his magical President Wand? He's partly to blame for the hole we're in, but that doesn't give him the power to go back in time and fix things.

Yes, you're right: He's PARTLY to blame for the hole we're in.

But the hole is getting deeper and deeper and he keeps saying that it isn't and that, to me, is part of the problem.

He had the speech televised to calm the markets today, that's all. If the market had been fine I doubt very much he'd have appeared live with his attempted powers of persuasion to calm fears.

Bear Stearns going down is officially a Big Deal and the kind of thing that might set off a big financial debacle and he wanted to temper the markets and fidgety nerves, that's all.

I don't believe in governmental handouts or bailouts, necessarily, but I equally don't believe in pretending a problem doesn't exist when it clearly does because people are homeless and jobless and there are more going to join their ranks shortly because some people:

1. Will not get "emergency checks" (hard to get a check in the mail when you don't have a home) and even if they do those checks won't pump up the economy, as Bush and government hope, but will instead be used to pay bills such as overpriced mortgages and credit card debt
2. Will not get a "30-day extension" for refinancing their mortgage because banks aren't going to tripping over themselves to refinance someone in the hole 3, 4, or 5 months in arrears...what financial institution wants to take on a problem? 30-day extensions aren't going to help someone collapsing financially.
3. Will not get "refinance letters" - Bush admitted that people aren't responding to letters sent out and again, banks aren't going to make concerted efforts to help people who are technically already bankrupt.

Bush saying that "government cannot get involved" is part of the problem in that lack of government oversight is why these financial institutions ran amok in the first place: There was no checkpoint for them but simply the government waving them on by with a smile and a Texas "Howdy".

[BadKosh]

What would have happened IF we had started developing the US oil reserves back in the early 1980's? The cost of a barrel might be 35 bucks. NONE of this other stuff would have happened. OPEC would be involved with less of the percentage of oil production, and less foreign types would use oil to threaten us. I guess the tree huggers and liberals are really to blame for our problems over the long run.

[Chuckit]

So like I said, what do you want Bush to do? What sort of government involvement are you looking for?

[♥]

I think that all ARM loans should be frozen at the request of holder(s), even temporarily, which will allow lenders to continue to be paid on current loans so that they are being remunerated, but also allows mortgage holders some breathing time to analyze their finances, stabilize finances, or refinance existing loans. Remember, one of the reasons this entire country is in trouble is because of subprime or ARM mortgages that were offered like candy to babies.

That is a start.

This has been mentioned (today it was mentioned by Bush briefly) but again, he stops short of saying that he's going to encourage that stop-gap method. What's the use of discussing it if you have no intention of offering it or attempting to offer it?

It's a start in the right direction. It's not a government handout, it's not a bailout, it's a compromise for all parties involved.

Secondly, I think that there should be governmental agencies established that will be available to anyone requesting scrutiny of a mortgage that they currently hold. If the mortgage is deemed to be predatory then the lender should be given a choice: Reduce the principle or interest or both, or face a government financial sanction.

Those are my ideas.

[Zeeb]

I'm not an economist but I do see a consistent pattern with economic cyles that is once again being displayed in this thread. That is, whenever there is even a minor downturn, people come out of the woodwork who basically call it the end of the world. The banks will fail, most U.S. companies will go bankrupt, retail stores will all close and we will all be left scavenging for leftover resources in a Mad Max type of environment. The only thing left to happen is for Tina Turner to appear in a skimpy outfit singing about the thunderdome. (I hope this doesn't happen, since Tina is getting a bit older these days but I guess she still looks ok) Is this particular downturn *really* going to turn into something much more serious? I doubt it--though a recession is certainly here.

Downturns always cause weak retailers to close up shop. Big deal. I think I will survive if Office Depot closes. House prices are now returning to a sane level-(except of course in NYC where I live dammit.)

[♥]

It's those "except" scenarios that you just described above that lend your argument to invalidity.



There are "excepts" all over the country, notably in Florida and California. When you say, "Oh well, a few retailers are going out of business, no big deal," what you're not realizing is the trickle down effect (Reagan economics, bless his soul) that occurs: Whole scores of other businesses also suffer, including creditors and lenders, because people do not spend and people do not pay their bills and that in turn affects the economy further.

It is a ripple effect and that saying that an economic butterfly flapping its wing on this side of the world affects China on the other side of the world could not be more true.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

And who has the lock on the education system?
To which party does the teacher's union always deliver their vote?

And folks of which political persuasion raised holy hell when Steve Jobs had the temerity, the unmitigated nerve to criticize the education system?

Curious, this education thing you mention.

My reply was to Big Mac's "If you're so concerned, educate yourself. All you are by posting crap threads like this one is a chicken little."

But if you want to bring in the teacher's union and the general education offered by public schools, I agree with Steve Jobs and disagree with the democrat's assessment of the situation, and likely agree with you.

However, I am untethered in terms of political alliances.

[♥]

BTW, Office Depot employees 47,000 employees.

That's a lot of families without a paycheck.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I recommend that anyone here who doesn't know how the banking system works should go have a look at all five parts of this:

YouTube - 1. Corrupt Banking System - Cartels Robbing the Public

The system is *designed* to collapse. And there's no way out. The only thing you can do is insulate yourself personally from the poopstorm that'll be shortly arriving.

Thanks for that post Doofy! Very interesting and educational film. I learned a lot

[Taliesin]

It's really OBL's fault: The 9/11 attacks had a greater economic shock effect than was usually reported. Back then, the federal reserve bank decided to do something to save the day: They made money extremely cheap, through low interests so as to support the economy and to stimulate confidence..

It worked and the economy saw the abyss but turned away from it, but it came at a price: The cheap money found its way into the house-market where lots of people, that otherwise were not creditable, used the opportunity to build houses... you know the rest.

Taliesin

[BRussell]

Can someone explain what's going on, why America is now officially bankrupt? Maybe tie, who always seems to have good economic sense? Or maybe provide a link? I don't really understand what's going on, except that dollars don't go very far in Europe.

[♥]

Did you see Doofy's link up there?

If not, WATCH IT.

It explains everything in an easy way and is great education.

The market is heading south at -250 points right now...

Might be that the markets didn't buy George Bush's explanations and his plea to remain calm.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by ♥ 

It's those "except" scenarios that you just described above that lend your argument to invalidity.



There are "excepts" all over the country, notably in Florida and California. When you say, "Oh well, a few retailers are going out of business, no big deal," what you're not realizing is the trickle down effect (Reagan economics, bless his soul) that occurs: Whole scores of other businesses also suffer, including creditors and lenders, because people do not spend and people do not pay their bills and that in turn affects the economy further.

It is a ripple effect and that saying that an economic butterfly flapping its wing on this side of the world affects China on the other side of the world could not be more true.

Sure, the recession and credit crisis in the U.S. will have a "trickle down" effect around the world. There is always a ripple effect in *every* recession. However, are the circumstances in this particular recession severe enough to lead to the extreme conditions discussed here? It's always possible the world economy could suffer a very severe blow but people are always underestimating how robust it is.

As for Office Depot possibly going out of business I'm not saying its not significant to those who would be affected. However, retailers go out of business during good economic cycles as well. Sometimes a company is just poorly managed. Pointing to a single company's possible failure is not a clear symptom of catastrophie yet. As for smaller, independent business--well those are always risky. They are frequently based on questionable ideas.

There was a very enthusiastic poster a few days ago I believe who wanted to start a business based upon kids coming into a lounge to play video games. I think its likely a business model like that could fail in either good or bad economic conditions. (No offense to that poster--go for it if you really believe in it)

I think the *worst* we may see is a 1980's style recession. That was harsh--double digit unemployment. While a depression is within the realm of possibility I personally don't see it.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ♥ 

The market is heading south at -250 points right now...

The market is heading south ?

Well, that's good, right ?

If it continues to go south, it'll hit Florida soon. Then you will finally have a market

-t

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Don't quit your day job to become an economist, ♥.

Good advice.

I've got a couple of "sky is falling" buddies who call me from the bunker once in a while.

What's really happened this time, as usual, is that the media has talked down the economy before an election. I think they shot their wad too early this time, but we'll see. With enough negative spin the media and their buddies on the Left can put this country into a big old-school style depression pretty quick. Just perfect for electing "change."

Want a REAL depression? Just wait until a big tax democrat gets a real lead on McCain -- then we'll have something going. Capital will run like hell at that point, as it should.

The Fed, by the way, is helping. Bernanke is much more political/image conscious than Greenspan was, unfortunately.

I wish I could say "leave the analysis to economists" but that won't work. Folks have to start using their common sense or we're all hosed.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Shhh. Don't leak too much common sense into a gloom and doom thread.

I hate to admit it, but I often think a good ol' fashioned depression would be just desserts for some of the whiners who've been pretending to be living in one for so long. Maybe they should get a taste of the real thing for a change.

[♥]

Some of "the whiners" are living it...now. Not later, but now. Their homes are gone.

Do I think that sometimes people deserve what they get? Yes. I've always worked and I've always worked damn hard. Right now I'm putting in overtime and making some personal sacrifices because I have a couple of bills and property taxes that need to be paid. I'm not going to whine and moan about how unfair life is, etc. I'm going to get busy and make things work out for me and for the family.

But I truly do feel sorry for some folks who, for whatever reason, have been victimized by unscrupulous lenders and/or their families have lost jobs because of the economy and I do think that the government just sitting back and watching an implosion occur just because they "don't want government to interfere with an economic process" is irresponsible on many levels.

Oh, and then there's the idea that our money is junk, also, and that bothers me also.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by ♥ 

Some of "the whiners" are living it...now. Not later, but now. Their homes are gone.

A lot of people who thought they 'bought' and 'owned' a home, never did in the first place. What's been going on with sham housing practices in this country the past decade or so, in which all traditional common sense has been tossed out the window, is something a lot of us were sitting back shaking our heads at all along.

I can't tell you how many times the past few years I saw people who knew DAMNED WELL they couldn't really afford to own a ridiculously overpriced home, delve into buying one anyway when the math didn't even begin to add up. The thinking was (as I've seen before) "...oh, screw that old traditional 'common sense' thing, and those old fogey rules from a bygone age- I deserve to own a home, I don't care what it costs, and some lender is telling me I can have one!"

A friggen falling down pile of junk that wasn't worth $150,000 was going for over a million BECAUSE of all the idiots who couldn't really afford to, willing to buy at any price based on "screw what it costs!" and "screw that old fashioned math thing!"

Banks, lenders and mortgage companies were certainly feeding the greed and lack of common sense belief system, and acting criminally, that's for certain- but I also can't overlook the greed and lack of common sense from the consumer to begin with.

No, if you're making an average to below average salary, you CANNOT actually afford something that costs half a million dollars and up - not in the past, not now. The only reason anyone is charging that much for something you can't really afford, and letting you kill yourself with paying for what you'll NEVER actually own, is the fact that you and a lot of your fellow consumers have collectively tossed common sense out the window.

Hell, it enough people were dumb enough to agree to the monthly payments and "screw the ticket price and all that old math nonsense!", then automobiles would all cost $80,000 each, and people would pay and pay until they went under and lost 'their' car, because a $20,000 car ISN'T really worth 4x as much, no matter how you slice it.

So many of the people that got in on the frenzy of buying overprices homes, aren't actually losing their homes- they never stood a chance of actually owning the homes in the first place. What's happened is the inevitable catching up. And it'll continue to do so.

What won't actually happen that should, IMHO, is that lenders that were in on the whole thing, knowing from the start they were lending inflated amounts to a lot of people that would do nothing but go bust, should be in JAIL.

In any case, the solution is NOT to allow government to bail out stupidity and corruption, and to encourage more of the same in the future. Stupidity and corruption should be punished, even if that punishment is harsh for a lot of people.

As painful as it may be, what needs to happen is the fake housing bubble needs to crash hard, and take down a lot of its victims (greedy, ignorant, or otherwise) with it. Housing needs to come back into the realm of sanity and affordability to buyers based on sound, traditional financial stability, at prices and rates that can actually lead to real home OWNERSHIP for real people, not just cash-cows paying a lender for something they'll never have a hope of actually owning.

Those of us who own our own homes -and are honest- have been watching this crazy bubble, scratching our heads and thinking "I know damned well my home isn't really worth X,XXX,XXX! That's friggen insane. I'd be more than a little unscrupulous to try and unload my own home on some sucker for that. Only crazy people are buying the neighbor's house for the insane 'on paper' amount it's selling for. Guaranteed, they'll be out on their ass once the market corrects back to some form of sanity unless they actually could afford a million+ dollar home in the first place."

And lo and behold... it's happening. It's hard to feel a lot of sympathy when greed and stupidity were behind a lot of it, and you saw it happening and even tried in whatever way you could to warn people.

Do I think that sometimes people deserve what they get? Yes. I've always worked and I've always worked damn hard. Right now I'm putting in overtime and making some personal sacrifices because I have a couple of bills and property taxes that need to be paid. I'm not going to whine and moan about how unfair life is, etc. I'm going to get busy and make things work out for me and for the family.

That's the way it should be. How is government action or George Bush responsible for anything in that equation?

Oh, and then there's the idea that our money is junk, also, and that bothers me also.

The funny thing about money- it is what we all believe it is. You believe it's junk- it will be if enough people agree with you. The weirdest thing about all of this is, it's all SELF-driven, mostly. That's one of the main reasons I don't believe in government doing anything magical to 'fix' it all. It'll take a change in collective perceptions and attitudes to fix most economic problems, and that's something beyond the role of government.

[♥]

What won't actually happen that should, IMHO, is that lenders that were in on the whole thing, knowing from the start they were lending inflated amounts to a lot of people that would do nothing but go bust, should be in JAIL.

You're right. They should go to jail. And maybe they won't because the folks making those sketchy mortgages were cronies of the current administration? Big banking bankrolled this admin.

A shrewd person will be willing to admit that this administration was possibly in bed with the bankers and the lenders and, at the very least, George Bush can be likened to Nero who fiddled while Rome burned with his duck and run attitude.

He kind of summed it all up today when he finished his newscast and said, "I"m going to dodge the rest of your questions" and left. (By the way, he only answered a couple of very superficial and non-consequential questions and made me wonder if the people he chose weren't just planted there.)

The only positive I see in this spectacle is that we begin to embrace alternative energy sources and begin to revisit the notion that we open up areas within our own borders for drilling oil so that we are not dependent on outside sources for oil.

[olePigeon]

I don't agree with the bail out for all those people. Move their asses into apartments and make them drive an 89 Volvo.

I feel sorry for the guy who lived on Top Ramen for 20 years so he could own his house, but he doesn't get any restitution from the Government because he actually read the contract, knew what he was getting into, and financially prepared for it.

[♥]

I don't agree with a bail out for every Tom, Dick, and Harry either; I do think that there needs to be policing done on behalf of unscrupulous bankers, mortgage companies, and even mortgage brokers who conned folks.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by ♥ 

I've been saying that this country is bankrupt for the last two years. The majority of people in this country are overextended or bankrupt, officially or unofficially, and the banks are in the same situation. (Before some of you contradict that statement ask yourself how much debt you have in debt, mortgage, and credit cards and if so, why isn't your debt and your credit cards paid off? Why do you have credit at all?)

If you think that having debt that you can't pay off instantly means you're in trouble then you don't understand debt. Debt is not inherently good or bad, it is a tool that needs to be used responsibly. Many people and companies have not been using it irresponsibly and are now paying (oh the punny) the consequences.

I'm hoping for minimal government bail outs; people who bought houses they couldn't afford don't deserve to keep those houses. I'm looking forward to buying a condo for a reasonable price in a couple years.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Got news for ya: The United States has been bankrupt since Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act back in 1913.

This is a very important fact.

[♥]

Debt is not inherently good or bad, it is a tool that needs to be used responsibly.

In a better economic society there would be no need for debt at all.

Debt is a tool only for the banks and lenders to make money. Watch Doofy's link up above and educate yourself and then when you're done with that check out a movie called [i}Maxed Out[/i] and be informed.

[Chuckit]

I don't think there's generally a need for debt in our society — you just can't live like you have more money than you do without it.

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Originally Posted by ♥ 

I'm venting because although I'm a conservative, I don't always agree with the policies and direction of my own party. It makes me sad that our country's crown is now tarnished.

It's people like you who have brought us to this place. Wouldn't have happened under Clinton. Thanks tons, Mr. "conservative." (Yes, I'm sick of eight years of idiotic Republicans doing their best to ruin our economy in favor of short-term gains for the rich and for oil companies. I'm sure you'll vote for McCain and four more years of it.)

Originally Posted by BadKosh

What would have happened IF we had started developing the US oil reserves back in the early 1980's? The cost of a barrel might be 35 bucks. NONE of this other stuff would have happened. OPEC would be involved with less of the percentage of oil production, and less foreign types would use oil to threaten us. I guess the tree huggers and liberals are really to blame for our problems over the long run.

BadKosh, the US oil reserves are nowhere near large enough to make a dent in OPEC's production. Look up some numbers, please. Our option on energy is to increase fuel efficiency. Oil companies oppose it, therefore so does Bush, therefore so do you, therefore we'll be paying $5 a gallon this summer, and Exxon will report the highest profits ever for any American company. Our leverage on OPEC comes from our technology, not from our oil reserves. The only way to scare OPEC is by showing them that we can live without them (or with much less of their oil), and our reserves can't nearly do this. We have the technical ability to reduce our fuel consumption by 25%. Our reserves can't come close to matching this.

[♥]

Wow. Someone way up ^^^ yonder said that they wanted to hear your response to all of this and here you are making a personal attack instead of attempting a civil and intellectual discussion.

Too bad.

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Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

What won't actually happen that should, IMHO, is that lenders that were in on the whole thing, knowing from the start they were lending inflated amounts to a lot of people that would do nothing but go bust, should be in JAIL.

I see your outrage, but I'm totally missing what you think the crime here is, or why you think anyone should go to jail. Is "lending inflated amounts to a lot of people that would do nothing but go bust" a crime? (It doesn't sound like a good long-term business model, but I don't necessarily see any crimes. I am not a lawyer, of course.)

In any case, the solution is NOT to allow government to bail out stupidity and corruption, and to encourage more of the same in the future. Stupidity and corruption should be punished, even if that punishment is harsh for a lot of people.

As painful as it may be, what needs to happen is the fake housing bubble needs to crash hard, and take down a lot of its victims (greedy, ignorant, or otherwise) with it. Housing needs to come back into the realm of sanity and affordability to buyers based on sound, traditional financial stability, at prices and rates that can actually lead to real home OWNERSHIP for real people, not just cash-cows paying a lender for something they'll never have a hope of actually owning.

Totally agree.

The weirdest thing about all of this is, it's all SELF-driven, mostly. That's one of the main reasons I don't believe in government doing anything magical to 'fix' it all. It'll take a change in collective perceptions and attitudes to fix most economic problems, and that's something beyond the role of government.

I really disagree. It is driven by fundamentals, mostly. It was the bubble that was self-driven, mostly, contrary to fundamentals. Parts of the correction are definitely self-driven, of course, and the fact that it is happening now instead of a year earlier or a year later definitely relates to perceptions.