[tpicco]

This stems from a disagreement with my wife...

I did a couple of jobs for a client. I was kinda ripped-off for the first one, but the secoond one seemed promising. It was potentially a steady bi-monthly freelance gig. A local college puts out a bi-monthly flyer of local cultural events. The first time I did it I charged her $150. Last week, she e-mailed me to do it a second time and I e-mailed yes.
------------------
AFTER I accepted the gig she e-mailed:
"Since we will be using the same size, format, etc. and that does not need to be re-worked completely, can we say $100. for the 2nd job = $250. total? (You originally were going to charge only $75. for job #1, but I was more generous)".
------------------
So I responded with this:
"Hmmmm.... so your logic is, the better I get at this, the less I should be paid? Most of the work is in the tweaking and fussing...

I was originally gonna charge $75 because I was remembering how incredibly underpaid I was for that 4/C dinner program, and I assumed [company name] were cheapskates... I was very pleased to get the $150.

However, if you really really want to pay a little less, I would settle for $125..."
------------------
And she said:
"We are cheapskates - but fair ones - go ahead and bill us $300 for the 2 jobs."
------------------

Now I know I was being a smart aleck, but I was a little annoyed. My wife feels I was out-of-line, and rude.

Yeah, I was rude, but I don't think it was that outrageous...

So was I wrong?

[red rocket]

I don't think the client should have tried negotiating the price down afterwards. If this was going to be a kind of regular job, she would have, in my opinion, been well within her rights to ask for some sort of batch discount, but not like this. What was going to happen in another two months, cut down the price even further? From a business point of view, I suppose you could have been a little more courteous with her, but on principle, I agree with your position.

[Cold Warrior]

The client was kind rude and presumptuous, but she did bump it up to $150 for no compelling reason after you were going to take $75. Also, calling your clients cheapskates isn't the way to build a rep.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

I don't think the client should have tried negotiating the price down afterwards.

Why not, isn't that what doing business is all about? As a provider of services, I'm going to try to get as much money as possible. As a consumer of services, I'm going to try to spend as little money as possible.

I think tpicco was a little snarky in his response to his client. Guess he's never heard the bit about biting the hand that feeds you.

[andi*pandi]

if it wasn't organized as "design-$75, layout-$75" in the initial agreement, she had no basis for wanting to knock down the price for the second edition. For such small jobs design and layout get merged.

You could have been more diplomatic about it though, saying that you gave them a design discount the first time, etc.

[tpicco]

oh heck I know all about biting the hand that feeds you... I've been doing graphics professionally since 1976... sometimes I nip the hand, sometimes I bite, and sometimes I just get a little snarky...

[Nivag]

You got the desired result so it's a fair email

[JonoMarshall]

Seemed rude to me:

Respect for a client = respect from a client = more payment.

[tpicco]

So what was the rude part? Calling them cheapskates, or the opening comments about "So your logic is..." ?


(I know I must seem like a moron of social behavior...)

[keekeeree]

I would say your email was a little over the line.

And I wouldn't assume that just because you're getting the full $150 for the second job that you came out on top. They may be paying your asking price because they're on deadline and don't have time to seek out another designer. Don't be surprised if they find one by the time they need their next flyer.

[Chuckit]

Honestly, the overall tone of your e-mail sounded a bit sarcastic, and insulting a client (or anybody with whom you wish to have a working relationship, really) is not a very good idea. I'm all for not letting anybody walk all over you, but at the same time, put yourself in the other person's shoes and see how you sound. And especially for a client who talks you into raising your price, I would try to be nice, because it sounds like you aren't working for assholes.

[peeb]

It all depends on the relationship with the client. A little banter like that can be fine, but it's a fine line between playful negotiation and someone feeling insulted. Seems like you walked it pretty well.

[art_director]

an interesting discussion.

my first thought was, does this guy freelance for a living or is it a side gig? my guess is that you're doing this work for a little extra cash, not to pay the mortgage. if it were your main income you'd probably exercise a higher degree of dimploacy. it doesn't take long to learn that difficult lesson when you're on your own to land and execute the work.

as for principal you were right on.

as for her desire to negotiate price AFTER you accepted, she was dead wrong. she should have been up front and mentioned that in the initial contact. getting you to say 'yes' then talking about new financial arrangements is manipulative. when people / companies use such tactics i walk away -- it's always a sign of things / abuses to come.

[peeb]

You don't always need to walk away - sometimes being frank and calling this behavior for what it is is enough to nip it in the bud.

[tpicco]

Originally Posted by art_director 

my first thought was, does this guy freelance for a living or is it a side gig? my guess is that you're doing this work for a little extra cash, not to pay the mortgage.

wrong... I am full time freelance and I would like to get a regular gig from this client... and I think I have...

obviously, i thought i could get away with a little sarcasm...

For more reference, that first gig I did that I mentioned earlier? The one I did for $750? She was against the wall needing a 24 page 4/C dinner program in four days... and I wanted $2000 but she was all whiney and upset and I thought it might be a good way into this local college's good graces. There are many other departments with potential graphic design work. Well with 4 days to go, she waits 36 hours before giving me close to 70 photos to scan. And when I got a little testy after 4 hours sleep in three days, telling her we have NO MORE TIME or the printer cannot get the program to the dinner, she starts CRYING.

>sigh<

so I felt (perhaps unwisely) that I had to nip her deceitful little manipulations in the bud with this job...

If I do not get the job a third time, I will return to take my lumps with my tail between my legs...

And for the record, I freelanced from 1979 to 1994, then I started freelancing again in 2004...

[Westbo]

Originally Posted by tpicco 

This stems from a disagreement with my wife...

I did a couple of jobs for a client. I was kinda ripped-off for the first one, but the secoond one seemed promising. It was potentially a steady bi-monthly freelance gig. A local college puts out a bi-monthly flyer of local cultural events. The first time I did it I charged her $150. Last week, she e-mailed me to do it a second time and I e-mailed yes.
------------------
AFTER I accepted the gig she e-mailed:
"Since we will be using the same size, format, etc. and that does not need to be re-worked completely, can we say $100. for the 2nd job = $250. total? (You originally were going to charge only $75. for job #1, but I was more generous)".
------------------
So I responded with this:
"Hmmmm.... so your logic is, the better I get at this, the less I should be paid? Most of the work is in the tweaking and fussing...

I was originally gonna charge $75 because I was remembering how incredibly underpaid I was for that 4/C dinner program, and I assumed [company name] were cheapskates... I was very pleased to get the $150.

However, if you really really want to pay a little less, I would settle for $125..."
------------------
And she said:
"We are cheapskates - but fair ones - go ahead and bill us $300 for the 2 jobs."
------------------

Now I know I was being a smart aleck, but I was a little annoyed. My wife feels I was out-of-line, and rude.

Yeah, I was rude, but I don't think it was that outrageous...

So was I wrong?

You could have handled it better. OK, your client was wrong to "renegotiate" after the fact. But you missed the opportunity to be magmanimous and gracious. Rather than have her feel embarrassed into paying you the $300, it would've been smarter of you to let her believe she got an even better deal on good work. If you wanted repeat business, this would've been a good way to get it... I'm sure you realize this and yes, you've certainly been around long enough to know better.

W2

[godzookie2k]

Originally Posted by art_director 

as for her desire to negotiate price AFTER you accepted, she was dead wrong. she should have been up front and mentioned that in the initial contact. getting you to say 'yes' then talking about new financial arrangements is manipulative. when people / companies use such tactics i walk away -- it's always a sign of things / abuses to come.

Yeah, the second a client wants to nickel and dime me, I walk away, its just the beginning of a bad relationship. That being said, you should have been a bit more diplomatic.

[Zanshin]

A better response might have been to reply, "How about if we sign a deal to have me do the flyer for the next 6 issues for $135 each?" You get steady work (for a little less money), they get reliable results for less than bidding it out every month. That's a win-win for all.

As for the message, I believe it is always good practice to be completely professional in all written communication to a client, regardless of how well you know them or what you feel you can get away with... you never know who else saw the email/letter. And if someone replaces your contact at that job, how will they react to your message if it's archived with your work?

There is no misinterpretation when you say: "I'm sorry, but the difference in the complexity of the two jobs doesn't justify that much of a discount." While you might have gotten the second job following the more contentious reply, you might have jeopardized a long-term relationship. Some people will accept your proposal because they need your work right now, but hold a grudge over your reply when they have other projects.

Lots of clients will try to get you to lower your price (even if they know you, their boss may demand it). Better to expect it and be ready to negotiate rather than be surprised and hurt if it happens. Plan ahead for a pricing strategy and rebuttal if the discussion turns that way. Try and second guess any objections, and be prepared to justify your charges to your client. After a verbal discussion about a project, promptly follow up with a written proposal that details what you'll provide for how much money.

If they award you the project, get them to sign a work order for it at the full amount agreed upon, and DON'T forget very specific terms and conditions of payment. This summer I had to wait 90 days for a $13,000 payment that I expected in two weeks, all because my work order hadn't been fully documented at the start of the project and forwarded to their Accounting group. I was dealing with a close friend and former colleague, and had even dropped my initial estimate by nearly 20%, but didn't get everything in writing in the timeframe her Accounting group needed for payment to be made the way I wanted. I won't soon forget that lesson.

[brassplayersrock²]

i would have smiled at the OPs e-mail and be like, hmm, he's like me, I like that and he does good work. I'll keep him and pay him the $300

[tpicco]

OK... in the long run, I probably should have been "magnanimous & gracious." I lost it professionally, but so far so good, she is still a client.

[SeSawaya]

I'm JUST like you with stuff like this. Although mine are very knee jerk reactions (cant say for you) so I've started to ALWAYS to wait 1 day to respond when it's possible. Gives my small mind a chance to work on it before I "speak" and avoid generally come off sounding like an A**. (slower heart rates make a better negotiator)

Just my 2¢

[tpicco]

SO I decided to bite the bullet and atone, and I sent her an e-mail apology, saying I had been upbraided by fellow professionals for my rudeness and sarcasm, and so I wanted to apologize, etc etc... and she said this:

I do appreciate your note, and thank you for it. But you should know that you had much good will stored up here for having put up with the craziness of the first job - doing a booklet like that in no time, and dealing with us at the most stressful time.

I hope to have the Nov/Dec. calendar text ready for you by Tuesday at the latest, with, as always, immediate turn-around needed (!)

Thanks to all here for your wide-ranging and thoughtful comments.

[natnabour]

Originally Posted by Zanshin 

A better response might have been to reply, "How about if we sign a deal to have me do the flyer for the next 6 issues for $135 each?" You get steady work (for a little less money), they get reliable results for less than bidding it out every month. That's a win-win for all.

As for the message, I believe it is always good practice to be completely professional in all written communication to a client, regardless of how well you know them or what you feel you can get away with... you never know who else saw the email/letter. And if someone replaces your contact at that job, how will they react to your message if it's archived with your work?

There is no misinterpretation when you say: "I'm sorry, but the difference in the complexity of the two jobs doesn't justify that much of a discount." While you might have gotten the second job following the more contentious reply, you might have jeopardized a long-term relationship. Some people will accept your proposal because they need your work right now, but hold a grudge over your reply when they have other projects.

Lots of clients will try to get you to lower your price (even if they know you, their boss may demand it). Better to expect it and be ready to negotiate rather than be surprised and hurt if it happens. Plan ahead for a pricing strategy and rebuttal if the discussion turns that way. Try and second guess any objections, and be prepared to justify your charges to your client. After a verbal discussion about a project, promptly follow up with a written proposal that details what you'll provide for how much money.

If they award you the project, get them to sign a work order for it at the full amount agreed upon, and DON'T forget very specific terms and conditions of payment. This summer I had to wait 90 days for a $13,000 payment that I expected in two weeks, all because my work order hadn't been fully documented at the start of the project and forwarded to their Accounting group. I was dealing with a close friend and former colleague, and had even dropped my initial estimate by nearly 20%, but didn't get everything in writing in the timeframe her Accounting group needed for payment to be made the way I wanted. I won't soon forget that lesson.

What he said. A signed agreement up front would and could avoid situations like this in the future. An estimate (before the job) and an invoice at the end seals the deal. I've learned that word of mouth and info through emails just boils down to a lot of bullshit. But having everything in a clear agreement with signatures saves you the headache and the disappointment.

[drmcnutt]

Originally Posted by tpicco 

SO I decided to bite the bullet and atone, and I sent her an e-mail apology, saying I had been upbraided by fellow professionals for my rudeness and sarcasm, and so I wanted to apologize, etc etc... and she said this:

I do appreciate your note, and thank you for it. But you should know that you had much good will stored up here for having put up with the craziness of the first job - doing a booklet like that in no time, and dealing with us at the most stressful time.

I hope to have the Nov/Dec. calendar text ready for you by Tuesday at the latest, with, as always, immediate turn-around needed (!)

Thanks to all here for your wide-ranging and thoughtful comments.

Your client didn't blink when you said you were discussing this business transaction with others? Wow, usually a lack of descretion (even implied) is not something you can get away with too much in the business world today.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by drmcnutt 

Your client didn't blink when you said you were discussing this business transaction with others? Wow, usually a lack of descretion (even implied) is not something you can get away with too much in the business world today.

The mere act of revealing my association with some of my clients would land me in front of a judge. Over the past few years non-disclosures have been all the rage within the industry. I see the reasoning but many are over the top. I've been saving them all and, in time, will publish them in my memoir along side the many briefs I've saved through the years.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by drmcnutt 

Your client didn't blink when you said you were discussing this business transaction with others? Wow, usually a lack of descretion (even implied) is not something you can get away with too much in the business world today.

He didn’t necessarily say about discussing this business transaction with others. He could easily have worded it so as to make it seem (which is more or less true) that he’d discussed it on a purely abstract level, never mentioning any particular projects or clients, but merely asking whether the tone in his reply was perhaps a bit over the top, leaving out the parts about actually quoting her.

[drmcnutt]

So he was just discussing email habits then eh?

[Timo]

Originally Posted by tpicco 

SO I decided to bite the bullet and atone, and I sent her an e-mail apology, saying I had been upbraided by fellow professionals for my rudeness and sarcasm, and so I wanted to apologize, etc etc... and she said this:

I do appreciate your note, and thank you for it. But you should know that you had much good will stored up here for having put up with the craziness of the first job - doing a booklet like that in no time, and dealing with us at the most stressful time.

I hope to have the Nov/Dec. calendar text ready for you by Tuesday at the latest, with, as always, immediate turn-around needed (!)

Thanks to all here for your wide-ranging and thoughtful comments.

A good ending. Congratulations to you for taking the high road.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Why not, isn't that what doing business is all about? As a provider of services, I'm going to try to get as much money as possible. As a consumer of services, I'm going to try to spend as little money as possible.

When then you do your bargaining BEFORE anyone does the work. That is why we always require a 50% down fee before doing ANYTHING. That way if the client comes and says "That isn't what I want, I have changed my mind" we aren't doing 10 different layouts for the same price. Each time he or she changes her mind about the over all look, it costs him or her more.

I have had some clients not understand why. I explain to them EACH time they totally redo an ad or logo they want me to do, it takes me just as much time as it did to do the first one. And since you are paying for my time, you're going to have to pay extra.

If you are looking for someone to do graphic work while saving money for you here is my advice.

1. Get the price down of what it will ALL cost ahead of time. And agree then and there. Don't try to haggle your way out of it after the product is finished. Not only will the company charge you more the next time, you'll start paying for things they make up on the spot.

2. Have your **** together. Know what you want before going in. The only changes that should be made are typographical ones. Or you will pay more.

People that go into graphics places that "aren't sure what they want.. " end up paying way too much money for what they get because of all the redos needed to be done to satisfy them.

of course they don't complain till they get the check. I've had some say "Forget it, I don't want it, and I will go somewhere else" and that is fine. They don't get their deposit back nor do they get any artwork. They just ending up paying for HALF for nothing just because they didn't know what they wanted.

Time = Money

Now the place I work for I don't have to deal with such shenanigans. The Ad reps do. And their customers ALWAYS try to get something for nothing. We offer logo design if you buy an ad. Meaning if you don't have a logo, we will design one for you if you buy an ad. That doesn't mean that we will sit there for 4 hours with you dissecting every inch of your logo to make sure it's the best logo ever. It means we will throw together something to make it look semi-professional for free. If you want something more, you are going to either have to pay someone to do it, or do it yourself. I knew one guy that wanted me to design him a certain size of an ad for a book that the book didn't support. Come to find out, he just wanted me to design his business cards for free.

I feel the original OPs pain. Unless you lay down the law, people WILL walk over you in this business.

[tpicco]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

He didn’t necessarily say about discussing this business transaction with others. He could easily have worded it so as to make it seem (which is more or less true) that he’d discussed it on a purely abstract level, never mentioning any particular projects or clients, but merely asking whether the tone in his reply was perhaps a bit over the top, leaving out the parts about actually quoting her.

well... this board's members & posters are who I discussed it with... I never mentioned the client's name or the name of the client's company... so what's the problem?

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by tpicco 

well... this board's members & posters are who I discussed it with... I never mentioned the client's name or the name of the client's company... so what's the problem?

I think I was a bit unclear: I meant that you probably worded your e-mail to your client so that it didn’t seem like you were discussing your business with them specifically (which would probably breach most contracts—and which you didn’t actually do, either), but on a more abstract level. I was agreeing with you.

[tpicco]

For the general record, this is what I e-mailed to her as an apology:

Recently I was meeting with a number of fellow freelance graphic artists, and we were taking shop. I brought up how I had prevented a client from trying to lower the price on a job, and I found myself being upbraided. The general consensus was, although of course they agreed with getting the best price possible, they felt my e-mail to you was rude and sarcastic.

I thought I was being oh-so-witty and clever in my response to you, but I owe you an apology. Please accept these words as my atonement and regret.

[Kevin]

If you are doing freelance work just remember to collect and upfront down-payment first. I've had people come to me to design something, and I've given them just what they wanted, only for them to change their minds and say "Maybe next month.. " and then want their deposit back. It doesn't work that way.

You don't pay someone to build a house, and when they finish say "Naw, I don't think I like this house anymore, sorry" You still have to pay the people that built it.

People don't treat design in the same way. At least some people. A few had to learn the hard way from me.

We'd agree at a price, and I'd ask for half up front. If they back out on me after the work is done, I get to keep that half. If they back on me before me doing anything, of course I will give it back.

But I should be payed for the work I have done regardless of the client's fickle nature.

I warn them too saying "The downpayment is just insurance for me so that I know I will get payed for my time spent regardless" and they understand and are all for it then. Of course they don't think they are going to decide to do something else.

I would also tell them, any MAJOR design changes cost extra as well. Half the initial cost.

Even doing this I was stealing most of the local graphics shop business because they put out poor work, and charged out the ying-yang.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by tpicco 

For the general record, this is what I e-mailed to her as an apology:

Recently I was meeting with a number of fellow freelance graphic artists, and we were taking shop. I brought up how I had prevented a client from trying to lower the price on a job, and I found myself being upbraided. The general consensus was, although of course they agreed with getting the best price possible, they felt my e-mail to you was rude and sarcastic.

I thought I was being oh-so-witty and clever in my response to you, but I owe you an apology. Please accept these words as my atonement and regret.

Very well-worded, exactly what I meant.

Even doing this I was stealing most of the local graphics shop business because they put out poor work, and charged out the ying-yang.

Completely off topic, but one of my little pet peeves—it’s called yin (and) yang, not ying-yang. Ying-yang means ‘nutrition’

[Westbo]

This bone has been picked clean. In summary, Tony, you did good.

Yin-yang, ying-yang, yang-ying, ding-a-ling... whatever.

W2

[Oisín]

yang-ying

Now you’re just being obscene!

[art_director]

Do I see a group hug coming?