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Governor Walker Victory Party (Page 2)
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lpkmckenna
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Jun 6, 2012, 07:31 PM
 
An excellent post, OAW.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jun 6, 2012, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
There's no way I could afford private school for my kids. My husband is a school teacher.
Shaddim thinks you're a bad person who doesn't love your own kids, and ebuddy thinks your husband is a mooching parasite. Wonderful people we spend our online time with, eh?
     
besson3c
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Jun 6, 2012, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Shaddim thinks you're a bad person who doesn't love your own kids, and ebuddy thinks your husband is a mooching parasite. Wonderful people we spend our online time with, eh?
I think it was turtle who said the mooching parasite thing...
     
stupendousman
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Jun 6, 2012, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
But just what leads you to this generalization that the majority of government workers have it made, have the easy life compared to the same sorts of jobs in the private sector? I'd say that it is difficult to bring home a fat salary with the majority of government jobs.
So you are saying that people working for the government are taking jobs that pay less for the same skills/education that the public sector provides?

Why would they do this?

If not, air the government jobs in question are being paid fair wages, then why is it necessary for them also to not require their employees to contribute some to their "perks" like almost everyone else does?
     
besson3c
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Jun 6, 2012, 08:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
So you are saying that people working for the government are taking jobs that pay less for the same skills/education that the public sector provides?
Huh? Don't you mean private sector?

Why would they do this?
It depends on what job you are talking about. Prior to this recent private space exploration if you took a job at NASA the answer to this would be self-explanatory, ditto for public sanitization and/or environmental type stuff. If you are talking about teaching at a state college or university it could be because the program provides the sort of experience you are looking for in academia. If you are talking about K-12 it could be because there aren't established private schools around, or you have specialized interests that would be hard to satisfy within private schools.

Once again, you are trying to over-simplify things, and insisting on the world conforming to your version of reality. In reality the public sector has its attractions as a place to work, as does the private sector. One is not inherently better than the other as far as providing a satisfying career. In general the financial upside to a career in the private sector is greater, but only if you can find the same sort of work in the public sector. This caveat is pretty significant.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jun 6, 2012, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think it was turtle who said the mooching parasite thing...
ebuddy was more delicate about it, but he did say the same thing: "a group of people under the auspice of a political wing could privately appeal to the government for more money and benefits to be paid by the good people of Wisconsin."

Oh, and teachers' protests are just "union thuggery" too.

I was ready to apologize to ebuddy for stuffing words in his mouth, but was reminded of the things that ebuddy actually said, and I'm not sorry any more.
     
Cold Warrior
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Jun 6, 2012, 08:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I think it was turtle who said the mooching parasite thing...
I think this thread is a little too obsessed with turtle. Perhaps not this post specifically, but the previous page caught my attention.

Let's see if we can't keep it on track.
     
ghporter
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Jun 6, 2012, 08:57 PM
 
I'm seeing something in this discussion that I figured should have played a bigger role in the recall election: why are people who are NOT from Wisconsin so happy that the recall failed? Perhaps for the same reason that Gov. Walker got tens of millions of dollars in funding from outside the state to be a test case (or perhaps surrogate) for the November General Election? And to prove that money buys elections? Sure, there's no way to prove that point, but it's hard to argue much against it, either, considering how Walker complained about "big labor" supposedly pouring money into the effort to recall him... Hmmm... I'll point out that in a speech after the results were clear, Governor Walker pointed out that he needed to work harder at including all the stake holders in his high-interest issues, like cutting government spending. Seems he learned that it's not good to get a million people signing a petition against one's keeping one's job...

Oh, and I'd also like to point out that using surrogates to test tactics and strategies didn't work in SE Asia in the 50s and 60s, and it could turn around and bite either side in November if the facts of the Wisconsin election turn out to be more than just hyper-polarized party loyalty.

Somehow, I sort of think the whole "I'm an American" thing has gone out of style, and that people are more likely to allow a bunch of windbags (from either side of the aisle) to come up with their ideas about things for them. Reminds me of a Far Side comic...the cattle are lined up for slaughter, and one scolds another "no cutting in line!"

Let's eliminate the vitriol and stop making this sound like a South Korean parliamentary session, shall we? Good.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
OAW
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Jun 6, 2012, 09:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
An excellent post, OAW.
Appreciate it.

The US has always been an oligarchy to a certain extent. It's actually built into the Constitution. That has been mitigated over the centuries with various reforms. But I truly believe this Citizens United decision will roll things back. Perhaps not to the point where only white, male, wealthy land owners were the only ones who decided the governance of the country. But definitely back to the point where the interests of the investor class sets the agenda of the nation.

OAW
     
hyteckit
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Jun 6, 2012, 09:33 PM
 
Congratulations to the Koch Brothers and Big Oil.

You get to keep your puppet Walker in office.

I'm sure all the money the Koch Brothers spent can be made back in a day by raising gas prices by 2 cents.
( Last edited by hyteckit; Jun 6, 2012 at 09:41 PM. )
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
besson3c
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Jun 6, 2012, 09:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
I think this thread is a little too obsessed with turtle. Perhaps not this post specifically, but the previous page caught my attention.

Let's see if we can't keep it on track.

Sorry, I am a little obsessed with Turtle. I get that way with my Where's Waldo searching. It's just so frustrating when you think you've found Waldo but it's just a stupid fake Waldo, do you know what I mean?
     
stupendousman
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Jun 6, 2012, 10:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Huh? Don't you mean private sector?
No. You accused me of generalizing that government workers "have it made". If they don't "have it made," then are they not being paid fair market value? If they are not, why do they take these jobs.

Once again, you are trying to over-simplify things, and insisting on the world conforming to your version of reality. In reality the public sector has its attractions as a place to work, as does the private sector. One is not inherently better than the other as far as providing a satisfying career.
So if the public sector all of a sudden decides that it's going to have it's employees pay a reasonable share of it's "perks," like the private sector does, then there are other equal opportunities in the private sector for them to choose from?

I agree.
     
stupendousman
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Jun 6, 2012, 10:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I'm seeing something in this discussion that I figured should have played a bigger role in the recall election: why are people who are NOT from Wisconsin so happy that the recall failed?
For the same reason why there would have been a lot of people who are NOT from Wisconsin who would have been happy if the recall was a success.

Recall - YouTube

Perhaps for the same reason that Gov. Walker got tens of millions of dollars in funding from outside the state to be a test case (or perhaps surrogate) for the November General Election?
...and probably an equal amount was spent to get him recalled.

The people got to decide, again. They reaffirmed what they did the first time.
     
OAW
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Jun 6, 2012, 10:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
...and probably an equal amount was spent to get him recalled.
It's been all over the news that the GOP outspent the Dems 7 to 1 in this recall election. So where is this even coming from? Or are you just talking?

OAW
     
Shaddim
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Jun 7, 2012, 01:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I love the internet: anyone can make whatever political pronouncements against the poor ("fnck public schools!!") and then try to wiggle out of it by claiming unproveable charity.
When did I mention the poor? My statement is that public school is inferior. There are many reasons for this, one of which is underfunding, though the biggest problem isn't salaries.

You flipped off public education, hence you flipped off millions and millions of people. You can't wipe that out with even more bragging about your money.
Why would I want to wipe that out? I've flipped off millions of people before, it's one of my favorite pastimes. It's their fault anyway (the citizenry as a whole), letting the public education system turn into shit.

This doesn't make you an ethical person, because you only think it's a license to brag. You're the worse type of rich person: one that *brags* about being charitable.
I'm simply not embarrassed to speak about it. A lot of wealthy people feel guilty because of what they have, I don't. There's no salvation in being poor and no damnation in being wealthy, we simply do what we do. And what we do is the only thing that matters.

Coincidentally, I give because it feels good and I tell others about it because there isn't any reason not to. Why would I keep such a thing a secret? False modesty? Why would it bother you to hear about it? Guilt?

FYI, there's only one type of rich person, rich. I just choose to do something a little different than most to get my kicks.
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Shaddim
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Jun 7, 2012, 01:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
There's no way I could afford private school for my kids. My husband is a school teacher.
Any way your husband could get a job at a private school? They often let the children of the faculty attend for free. It's a pretty good deal and worked out well for a friend of mine.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Jun 7, 2012, 01:53 AM
 
Good for Wisconsin. Now hopefully other states will follow suit. The more libs whine and stomp their feet, the better. That's what happens whenever sanity is achieved or restored anywhere.

As for public vs. private schools: I submit that just about anyone who really cares about their kids (and lives where the public schools are absolute shit) will at least look into sending them to a private school, or at the very least if it has to be public, a decent charter or magnet.

No way in seven hells my kid will ever set foot in LA Pedified. Not only does your kid stand about zero chance of getting educated in that god-forsaken hellhole, they stand a better than average chance of getting molested by the pack of tenured child-predators/teaching staff.
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 7, 2012, 05:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I have no problem paying them a salary for their work comparable to what they would get in the private sector like the rest of us.
There are many jobs that do not have an equivalent in the private sector.
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
There's just simply no reason that they should get it BETTER for doing the same amount/type of work just because they are employed by a government that isn't concerned about the "bottom line" and will just redistribute the wealth of others to give better wages/perks to those who haven't done anything extra to get them.
Why not? It's hard to get good people, and one way to persuade people to go work for company A rather than company B is that company A makes a better offer than company B. In that respect, the state is no different, if the state competes for the best minds, there is nothing nefarious in offering perks you don't have at other jobs. Plus, many state jobs come with caveats of their own.
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
If I'm paying taxes so that someone working for the state doesn't have to pay anything for their pensions or health insurance, and I AND MOST ALL OTHERS DO HAVE TO, then every dime taken from me is a suck to my wallet, IMO.
But you're getting something in return. If you're just jealous of the good conditions, why not demand them from your own employer/state?
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stupendousman
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Jun 7, 2012, 06:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
It's been all over the news that the GOP outspent the Dems 7 to 1 in this recall election. So where is this even coming from? Or are you just talking?

OAW
It was also all over the news that the race was predicted to be super tight and could go either way, even though it was actually ended up a pretty decisive victory for Walker.

I'm pretty sure that "the news" doesn't have the receipts for what was spent, and I'm also pretty sure it would be hard to calculate the value of the "free" labor that the unions provided from it's workers.
     
stupendousman
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Jun 7, 2012, 06:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
There are many jobs that do not have an equivalent in the private sector.
Typically, unless we are dealing with a position that requires specific skills which are rare to find in the average person (professional athlete for instance), when there are fewer available positions available for a certain job there isn't as much of a competitive need to give extra or better perks. Just being hired to fill one of those coveted slots is it's own reward. Most of the jobs in question DO have a reasonable equivalent in the private sector though - or at least there are jobs where people with the same education/training could be hired.
     
ebuddy
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Jun 7, 2012, 07:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
An awful lot of sore winners in here.
It's not winning in a sore way mckenna, it's proclaiming victory loudly to bolster the courage of legislators throughout the country.

Having entrusted our most precious resource to the particular union entity often lifted up as an example of the integrity of the union ideal has lead to a country that scores nearly last in academic achievement among OECD nations while spending exponentially more per student to perform this abysmally. It hasn't been "about the children" for at least 25 years, quit using them as pawns in your political fodder.
ebuddy
     
BadKosh
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Jun 7, 2012, 08:12 AM
 
So the Dem's didn't contribute the other 30 million, but what about the UNIONS? Of course they aren't saying. Any truth to the multiple reports that about 64 million dollars was spent by both sides?
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 7, 2012, 08:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Typically, unless we are dealing with a position that requires specific skills which are rare to find in the average person (professional athlete for instance), when there are fewer available positions available for a certain job there isn't as much of a competitive need to give extra or better perks.
What do professional athletes have to do with all this?
It's not just a question about ability, but also willingness: just because you could be a firefighter, teacher or policeman doesn't mean you want to take such a job. Again, I don't see anything wrong with offering benefits, just because you may be able to fill vacancies without them.
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Just being hired to fill one of those coveted slots is it's own reward.
That's right. And what's wrong with that? Good working conditions attract good people, and good people will compete for those few positions that offer these extra perks.
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Most of the jobs in question DO have a reasonable equivalent in the private sector though - or at least there are jobs where people with the same education/training could be hired.
So why are you complaining then if the private sector offers similar perks than the public sector? If you were offered two jobs, and one has better benefits and working conditions than the other, which one would you likely take? If those two jobs were offered by companies, I assume, you see nothing wrong with that. But if one of those job offers come from a governmental institution, there is?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
stupendousman
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Jun 7, 2012, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
What do professional athletes have to do with all this?
They have unique skills for a job which isn't generally available to the rest of the population. Therefore, they get paid above and beyond what an average person does.

It's not just a question about ability, but also willingness: just because you could be a firefighter, teacher or policeman doesn't mean you want to take such a job. Again, I don't see anything wrong with offering benefits, just because you may be able to fill vacancies without them.
Is there really a problem with finding people to fill vacancies in government positions? It's my experience that people are chomping at the bit to get one.

That's right. And what's wrong with that? Good working conditions attract good people, and good people will compete for those few positions that offer these extra perks.
If the private sector, who has to account to shareholders and the "bottom line", can offer potential employees a job without the cushy perks and stay competitive, certainly an entity who has a history of performing less productively than the private sector can do the same.

..and we aren't talking about a select "few positions."
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 7, 2012, 11:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Is there really a problem with finding people to fill vacancies in government positions? It's my experience that people are chomping at the bit to get one.
Better conditions means you're more likely to be able to hire good people. Are you jealous that the working conditions are better in some regards if you work for the government?
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
If the private sector, who has to account to shareholders and the "bottom line", can offer potential employees a job without the cushy perks and stay competitive, certainly an entity who has a history of performing less productively than the private sector can do the same.

..and we aren't talking about a select "few positions."
The government is accountable to the people. But the difference between government and the private sector is that the government is not supposed to generate profit, but to provide services.
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andi*pandi
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Jun 7, 2012, 12:32 PM
 
It's been my experience that good bennies make up for a generally poor salary, wherever you go, in any industry. At 35K, teachers are not Enron execs bilking the taxpayer. Good health insurance or other bennies can help with retention, which is better for the school so they don't have to keep searching/hiring/breaking in new staff. Turnover is a big problem, as is burnout.

My husband works at a special ed school, and while his health insurance isn't great (we use mine) one of his perks is free childcare. That's the lure. It's work-coop for the high school kids. His school is different than many public schools however.

I do believe there is a teacher shortage, especially in the sciences.
Teachers in Demand Across the U.S. - Teachingcom
     
stupendousman
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Jun 7, 2012, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Better conditions means you're more likely to be able to hire good people. Are you jealous that the working conditions are better in some regards if you work for the government?
It's"jealousy" when someone takes the money I earn to give someone else a "better condition" than I have and I don't like it?

Does not compute.
     
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Jun 8, 2012, 04:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
It's"jealousy" when someone takes the money I earn to give someone else a "better condition" than I have and I don't like it?
Yes. You make it sound like you're giving money to charity against your will, but these people work for their money just like everybody else. They teach at schools, patrol the streets and wrestle with paperwork, they don't all sit at home and watch TV during work hours.
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ghporter
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Jun 8, 2012, 07:00 AM
 
There was indeed a big, potentially national issue on the table here: is it appropriate to strip public employees of collective bargaining rights, or is that simply a way to destroy the ability of the state to perform the services it is supposed to perform? Walker vigorously advocated for NO collective bargaining rights for almost all public employees, despite the fact that historically the groups he worked to disadvantage have been paid poorly and had few useful benefits. So-called "big labor" opposed this for obvious reasons.

The assumption that the state can do what it is required to by law and by the social contract that taxpayers think they're paying taxes to support while whittling down public worker pay is ludicrous. Cut the pay too much and you wind up with either a shortage of workers who aren't yet so desperate that they'll work for peanuts, or even worse performance than the typically poorly staffed state agency/school district/police force already provides. Or both.

So yes, outside observers had a stake in this. But when it comes down to it, Walker himself acknowledged that he was wrong to go at his idea of cutting state spending by unilaterally stripping state employees of collective bargaining rights (yes, unilaterally, since he railroaded the bill through his hip-pocket state legislature which voted entirely on party lines). Take home? Act like a dictator and you get an uprising. Which also burns up any across-the-aisle good will any politician could ever build. It was a bad idea to begin with, and running with it so hard cost the state of Wisconsin a lot.

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The Final Shortcut
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Jun 8, 2012, 08:53 AM
 
Interesting that there's such a huge private school/public school debate amongst US people here. We don't seem to have that discussion too much in Canada - most private schools I'm aware of all cost huge amounts of money (e.g. tuition at least $20k/year, or perhaps more likely, double that). Private school isn't an option unless you're upper-middle class or higher - and even then it's only if one is available in your area. (I'm not sure there are even any true private schools in my province.)

I personally take a much more conservative view of the K-12 school system: it is what you make of it. If any given kid is motivated, has motivated parents, and is interested in learning and would like to perform well (which goes back to the parents IMO), then they'll do well no matter where they go. I associate with enough successful business who made themselves millionaires without even a high-school education to know that it's the drive that matters, not the type of education - and that can be taught from a young age.

What's the prevalent method of education in other countries with well-regarded school systems? Is it a mix of both? I've never looked into this before.
     
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Jun 8, 2012, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Interesting that there's such a huge private school/public school debate amongst US people here. We don't seem to have that discussion too much in Canada - most private schools I'm aware of all cost huge amounts of money (e.g. tuition at least $20k/year, or perhaps more likely, double that). Private school isn't an option unless you're upper-middle class or higher - and even then it's only if one is available in your area. (I'm not sure there are even any true private schools in my province.)

I personally take a much more conservative view of the K-12 school system: it is what you make of it. If any given kid is motivated, has motivated parents, and is interested in learning and would like to perform well (which goes back to the parents IMO), then they'll do well no matter where they go. I associate with enough successful business who made themselves millionaires without even a high-school education to know that it's the drive that matters, not the type of education - and that can be taught from a young age.

What's the prevalent method of education in other countries with well-regarded school systems? Is it a mix of both? I've never looked into this before.

It's pretty much the same in the US too, the private school fascination expressed by some here is just an extension of their anti-government religion. Probably the main difference is that there isn't a sizable population of Canadians I'm aware of with the same vehement distrust of all things government that there is here. Have you ever come across a Canadian version of Big Mac?

The solution to me is to make our government better, not to force a square peg into a round hole in trying to make everything work in the private sector as a reflection of this distrust. Some Republicans and Democrats evidently simply can't imagine a day where they'd ever trust their governments sufficiently enough to be comfortable putting these feelings aside.

I'd really like to figure out the source of this sentiment, and whether this is unique to America. I suspect only having two major parties here is a part of this.
     
subego
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Jun 8, 2012, 07:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
It's pretty much the same in the US too, the private school fascination expressed by some here is just an extension of their anti-government religion.
There's no proof in the pudding?

Here in Chicago, unless you can get into an honors program, the public schools really suck. It's been that way my entire life. People who can, send their kids to private school.
     
turtle777
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Jun 8, 2012, 08:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There's no proof in the pudding?

Here in Chicago, unless you can get into an honors program, the public schools really suck. It's been that way my entire life. People who can, send their kids to private school.
Well, that's not entirely true. In the NW suburbs (e.g. Barrington), there are some excellent public schools. But you pay through the nose in home prices and real estate taxes.

-t
     
besson3c
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Jun 8, 2012, 08:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There's no proof in the pudding?

Here in Chicago, unless you can get into an honors program, the public schools really suck. It's been that way my entire life. People who can, send their kids to private school.

Sure it's true in some areas, but given that there are enough successful public schools, doesn't it seem more logical to say that these schools should be fixed and/or replaced first before we start asking their families (who may be living at the poverty line, there's often a connection between bad schooling and poverty) to pony up for private schooling?
( Last edited by besson3c; Jun 8, 2012 at 09:20 PM. )
     
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Jun 8, 2012, 09:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Congratulations to the Koch Brothers and Big Oil.

You get to keep your puppet Walker in office.

I'm sure all the money the Koch Brothers spent can be made back in a day by raising gas prices by 2 cents.
Please, Soros outspends the Koch brothers 50 to 1, never mind the money David Rockefeller and the rest of the NWO crowd spend every election cycle.
45/47
     
turtle777
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Jun 8, 2012, 09:35 PM
 


Maybe I should take failcheckit off my ignore list, I'm missing some real gems there



-t
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Jun 9, 2012, 12:10 AM
 
Much smaller scale victory than Wisconsin, but following the same encouraging trend, here in California voters in San Jose and San Diego passed pension reform for their city governments.

Labor unions feel pain of pension reform votes in San Diego, San Jose | Washington Times Communities

SAN DIEGO, June 7, 2012 – Hear those alarm clocks ringing from the West Coast? It’s a big wake-up call for America’s public labor unions, and they better not hit the snooze button.

While the nation focused on Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker’s victory, the passage of two pension reform measures in the cities of San Jose and San Diego is likely to embolden other fiscal conservatives and taxpayer advocates across the country, triggering a revolution of reform.

Voters overwhelmingly approved initiatives that overhauled retirement benefits for city employees in an effort to get overwhelming pension obligations under control. In San Diego, a super majority two-thirds of all voters approved Proposition B; that number was 70 percent in favor of the similarly named Measure B in San Jose.

“San Diego’s victory isn’t just a win for San Diego taxpayers. It marks the beginning of the pension reform movement for our country,” declared Lani Lutar, president and CEO of the San Diego County Taxpayers Association. “Tuesday the voters sent a very clear message to elected officials: Put the taxpayers first. Use our money prudently, and stop giving away benefits we can’t afford.”
to that last line. That's exactly it.

Gee, all of this flies in the face of that recently ass-pulled statistic that 90% of the population is hopelessly hooked on Big Government!

What the union thugs and political leftists will (as usual) fail to understand as this movement moves and from city governments to more state governments (and one can only hope one day the national government), none of this is really about any of their petty scare-tactics and sob stories about poor poor teachers and poor poor government paper-pushers.

There are still enough taxpayers/voters out there that can DO MATH. Promising people -no matter how noble the profession or boo-hooey the sob stories- unsustainable amounts of money promised on the backs of taxpayers that can't afford it DOESN'T ADD UP.

If this stuff passes in "ultra conservative" Wisconsin and California, you can bet your ass it would also pass on any ballot just about anywhere else in the country. Hopefully we get to find out past all the histrionics the union thugs and their corrupt allies will likely resort to.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jun 9, 2012, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Have you ever come across a Canadian version of Big Mac?
Ezra Levant, the most insufferable twit in Canadian media. I'm not saying Big Mac is an insufferable twit, just that they share a lot of political attitudes.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jun 9, 2012, 02:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Please, Soros outspends the Koch brothers 50 to 1
[citation needed]

Not that it really matters, I'm just curious where these numbers come from. I'm pretty confident that Soros' numbers are inflated by including charity with political donations.
     
subego
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Jun 9, 2012, 02:55 PM
 
Here's an article which claims a 5:1 Koch to Soros ratio. I make no claim as to its veracity.

Capital Rivals: Koch Brothers vs. George Soros - OpenSecrets Blog | OpenSecrets
     
stupendousman
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Jun 13, 2012, 08:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yes. You make it sound like you're giving money to charity against your will, but these people work for their money just like everybody else.
Exactly. They do jobs the same as everyone else. However, they are getting salary and benefits that most of the time IS LARGER than taxpayers in the private sector with equal or greater education and training.

I went to school and got a degree equitable to that of an education degree. However, I don't get months of vacation off. In fact, since my employment requires specific goals to be reached in order for me to continue my employment (what the private sector normally requires, that the public sector does not), in the past I've given up vacation time in order to ensure that those goals where reached and also often work well over 40 hours a week. I also have to pay HALF of my health care premiums and GET ZERO contribution to any kind of retirement fund.

I have nothing against people getting more than me if they earn it, or have skills that I could not achieve, but in times when taxpayers can't afford to pay more and the private sector job market are generally not offering these types of perks to the average employee, then it's irrational to suggest that public sector employees being asked to accept perks that are less, but STILL greater than the average public sector counterpart is somehow a violation of their rights.

Does not compute.
     
hyteckit
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Jun 13, 2012, 08:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Please, Soros outspends the Koch brothers 50 to 1, never mind the money David Rockefeller and the rest of the NWO crowd spend every election cycle.
Care to back up that claim? We are talking about the Wisconsin election. How much did Soros spent on the Wisconsin campaign?

Scott Walker is Koch brother's puppet.

Chongo the liberal says:

Koch brothers outspends Soros 50,000 to 1, never mind the money Karl Rove and his Super Pac American Crossroads spent on the Wisconsin campaign.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Chongo
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Jun 13, 2012, 09:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Care to back up that claim? We are talking about the Wisconsin election. How much did Soros spent on the Wisconsin campaign?

Scott Walker is Koch brother's puppet.

Chongo the liberal says:

Koch brothers outspends Soros 50,000 to 1, never mind the money Karl Rove and his Super Pac American Crossroads spent on the Wisconsin campaign.
Don't forget AFSCME, SEIU , the AFL-CIO, and The Teamsters, AFT and IBEW, and the other unions.
45/47
     
hyteckit
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Jun 13, 2012, 10:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Don't forget AFSCME, SEIU , the AFL-CIO, and The Teamsters, AFT and IBEW, and the other unions.
We are still waiting for you to back up your claim that Soros outspent the Koch brothers 50 to 1 in the Wisconsin election.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Chongo
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Jun 14, 2012, 07:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Here's an article which claims a 5:1 Koch to Soros ratio. I make no claim as to its veracity.

Capital Rivals: Koch Brothers vs. George Soros - OpenSecrets Blog | OpenSecrets
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
We are still waiting for you to back up your claim that Soros outspent the Koch brothers 50 to 1 in the Wisconsin election.
Did I say in the WI election? No. Yes it includes non political donations for both. In pure political spending it's 8:1 in favor of Soros

Special Report: George Soros: Godfather of the Left | Media Research Center
This article links to the story subego links to.

An analysis by the Center for Responsive Politics’s Opensecrets.org compared contributions by the Koch brothers and George Soros. This review from Sept. 21, 2010 showed Soros lavished more than $34 million on 527s, candidates, and committees. This compared with a mere $4 million from the Koch brothers. The Kochs do surpass Soros in funding to candidates, parties, and committees, but the difference is a little more than $800,000. Opensecrets.org is part of the Soros-funded Center for Responsive Politics. They received $500,000 in grants from the Open Society Foundation since 2000.

45/47
     
ebuddy
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Jun 15, 2012, 07:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Did I say in the WI election? No. Yes it includes non political donations for both. In pure political spending it's 8:1 in favor of Soros

Special Report: George Soros: Godfather of the Left | Media Research Center
This article links to the story subego links to.
"Opensecrets.org is part of the Soros-funded Center for Responsive Politics. They received $500,000 in grants from the Open Society Foundation since 2000."

I love it!
ebuddy
     
hyteckit
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Jun 15, 2012, 08:53 PM
 
So Chongo just made up the whole Soros outspent Koch brothers 50 to 1 on the Wisconsin campaign. I'm shocked!

Chongo's attempt at proof is MRC, a conservative bias organization funded by the Koch brothers.

And Scott Walker is still Koch brothers' puppet.
( Last edited by hyteckit; Jun 15, 2012 at 09:03 PM. )
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Jun 15, 2012, 09:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Did I say in the WI election? No. Yes it includes non political donations for both. In pure political spending it's 8:1 in favor of Soros
This thread is about the Walker recall election.

My response was about the Wisconsin recall election.

Your response to has nothing to do with WI election and Scott Walker?

Okay. Pres. Reagan tripled the national debt. How is that relevant?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
hyteckit
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Jun 15, 2012, 09:19 PM
 
Politico's article published today about the Koch Brothers.

Koch brothers: Inside the Koch World convention - POLITICO.com

Many of the dozens of rich conservative invitees are expected to write huge checks to a pool of cash distributed among Koch-approved groups, potentially boosting the Kochs’ 2012 spending plan beyond their historic $395 million goal. And it’s also a chance for the Kochs to show off their increasingly robust political machine, including a growing voter database project called Themis that played a major role in conservatives’ recent efforts in Wisconsin and in which POLITICO has learned Koch operatives have discussed investing $20 million.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Chongo
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Jun 15, 2012, 10:54 PM
 
It's more 30M to 25M when you factor in all the money the unions kicked in.
Media Cite False Spending Differential To Explain Walker Win

Overall, over $63.5 million was spent on the recall effort by various parties. Walker spent about $30 million; Barrett spent about $4 million. Most of the money spent by Walker came from out-of-state sources – The Republican Governors Association spent about $4 million, almost all from out-of-state; the Kochs gave $1 million; the Chamber of Commerce gave $500,000. On the surface, then, it appears that Walker had a tremendous cash advantage.
Not so fast. As it turns out, labor unions spent an additional $21 million on the recall election. When it came to state senate recall elections back in September 2011, Democrats outspent Republicans $23.4 million to $20.5 million.
While Politico’s Glenn Thrush says that there’s “only one paragraph you really need to read this ayem, courtesy of the Center for Public Integrity,” then quotes a paragraph talking about Walker’s biggest donors, that’s hackish reporting. The CPI actually adds:
Campaign contributions tell only part of the story. National unions have kept Barrett’s campaign alive by funding outside groups dedicated to defeating Walker. More than a year since Walker limited collective bargaining rights for most public employees, the nation’s three largest public unions — the National Education Association (NEA), American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME), and the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) — have channeled at least $2 million from their treasuries and super PACs to two Wisconsin-based independent expenditure groups.
It’s also worth noting that while Republicans largely had to build their ground game from the ground up, labor unions have a consistent ground game – funded by tax dollars. All of the donations to Walker and pro-Walker groups were not mandated. The same is not true of Big Labor dollars, which come from mandatory unions dues in most cases.
In terms of strict numbers, Walker spent some $30 million; Barrett and the unions spent $25 million. That’s not a 7-to-1 differential. And when you add in unions’ inherent advantage in ground game, you’re talking about a better-than-even split for Barrett.
45/47
     
 
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