[The Placid Casual]

My MBP (2.0 CD, 256 x1600) is severely sickly after 18 months, and now only intermittently charges, crashes frequently etc. It has had a 'hardish' life, but overall, compared to the many Mac Laptons I have had previously, I am unimpressed to have to be swapping this soon.

I won't buy another MBP, ad I have had 3 now (1 personal, 2 with work), and each has had it's own problems... so I am contemplating a Macbook. I only need a 13.3 screen, and I find the plastic finish always holds up better with traveling etc

However, bearing in mind the generic nature of the Intel Logic Boards and components, I have become increasingly angry at the 'Apple Premium'... it leads me to ask, just how much is OS X worth?

I went to Page d'accueil de Dell France - Ordinateurs, matériel informatique, composants électroniques, et services, and saw an Inspirion 1525... I specced it as follows:

Intel C2D 2.0
2 Gig RAM
1440x900 15" screen
250 Gig Sata HDD (!)
Superdrive
X3100

All for 800Euro!!

I compare this to the base model Macbook that goes for 1099Euro, and they are identical, except that the Dell has nearly triple the HDD, double the RAM... all for over 300Euro less! And Dell must be making on a profit on this too!

I hate Windows, really can't use it (unix and Mac background since the 80's), but this really, really sticks in the throat... I am paying over 300Euro more, for a very much inferior machine in terms of Spec, all for the Apple name, and OS X.

Surely Apple could make a cheaper entry level Macbook? or lower the mark up on the current models? it just makes no sense to buy in France atm.

Which brings me to another point... the Macbook US price is 1099$ which at current exchange rates is 755Euro (!), the France price is 1049Euro... which even taking in to account tax differences, is a huge amount extra that EU customers are paying!

Something is just wrong with both pricing and specs, and it pains me to buy a machine a machine so radically overpriced compared to the US, and also underspecced for the price premium

[Cold Warrior]

For me, OS X is worth it. I run Windows all the time for work (and at home on my MBP C2D if working on stuff over the weekend or away from the office). It just reinforces how much better OS X is (I use Leopard). Text, responsiveness, security, etc. I don't hate Windows; XP SP2 pro is stable and its apps run well on modern hardware. I simply prefer the look and feel of OS X.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

For me, OS X is worth it. I run Windows all the time for work (and at home on my MBP C2D if working on stuff over the weekend or away from the office). It just reinforces how much better OS X is (I use Leopard). Text, responsiveness, security, etc. I don't hate Windows; XP SP2 pro is stable and its apps run well on modern hardware. I simply prefer the look and feel of OS X.

I have to agree, OS X is superior (but as you say XP sp2 is not a very bad OS)... but then again, I'd be happy with a command line prompt over windows.

What I mean is, how much of a premium can apple charge for inferior hardware just because of OS X? $200, $300, $400+? There has to come a point where it becomes economically non-viable for the end user. I think this accentuated more in the EU than US atm.

I can buy a Dell of the same spec as the MBP for 500Euro/$700... so the gap at the moment is over $400+!

That has to be wrong, when the machines use essentially identical hardware, from the same supplier.

[Cipher13]

Apple hardware has gone way downhill in recent years, unfortunately. It's a shame, but the fact of the matter is, Apple laptops aren't nearly as bad as the PC counterparts, despite the recent decline (PC laptops are just... horrific. All of them).

When you buy a Mac laptop you pay for OS X, and also for a far less shitty piece of hardware.

As it stands, I'm not impressed with the run my 15" MBP has had so far, and won't be buying another one at this rate (that said, I won't buy a PC laptop either). My 5+ year old iBook, and 9+ year old G4 are *still* more reliable than it is.

[bballe336]

That dell laptop may cost far less but another thing you need to consider is the build quality. How sturdy is it going to be? I have not picked up a single PC laptop that I would consider sturdy, and I work on laptops daily (I work at a local computer store). PC laptops are generally built very poorly, between the loose batteries, wiggly keyboards, poorly placed power jacks, and overall cheap feel of most PC laptops I can justify the cost of an apple laptop to myself.

I don't have much income as a high school student, but for me a few hundred dollars isn't much of a premium to know that I am buying a laptop that is going to be higher quality and run the OS I like.

[The Placid Casual]

Originally Posted by bballe336 

That dell laptop may cost far less but another thing you need to consider is the build quality. How sturdy is it going to be? I have not picked up a single PC laptop that I would consider sturdy, and I work on laptops daily (I work at a local computer store). PC laptops are generally built very poorly, between the loose batteries, wiggly keyboards, poorly placed power jacks, and overall cheap feel of most PC laptops I can justify the cost of an apple laptop to myself.

I don't have much income as a high school student, but for me a few hundred dollars isn't much of a premium to know that I am buying a laptop that is going to be higher quality and run the OS I like.

I know what you mean, but the build quality of the 3 MBPs I have owned has been *awful*.

I kind of expect a $2000+ machine to last more than year, all my Powerbooks and iBooks did.

[Chuckit]

Honestly, it's my experience that laptops in general suck for reliability. They just break like a mofo. I don't have a recent Apple laptop, but the people I know who have them still seem to have better luck in general than the cheap PC laptop owners I know, so I assume the relative quality is still the same.

[analogika]

The Dell is also a pound heavier and quite a bit thicker.

I'm not going to comment on build quality, since I haven't used one, but I do get quite a few former Dell customers in to buy MacBooks, and their comments are pretty clear.

[shiff]

I have no issues with quality on any of the Dell laptops that I have owned. Keep in mind that I do not buy the cheapest laptop. My Dell laptop comes out to be around the same cost as my macbook pro so I am not comparing price at all. At work we have over 10,000 Dell laptops and rarely ever have issues. Now if you buy the cheapest laptop they have, then I could definitely see quality issues.

I do feel that Apple needs a better warranty program. Applecare is good but it would be really nice to have a "complete care" warranty like Dell offers. Being able to get the laptop repaired if you drop it or any other accidental damage is really nice. The warranty costs no more then Applecare. I am sure there are horror stories with that warranty too, but carrying around a 3k laptop and being scared to death that it is going to get dropped is a little frustrating.

I still enjoy Apple products. I just purchased a top of the line 17 inch macbook pro two days ago. I am anxiously awaiting my 4 gigs of memory from crucial. I knew memory prices had come down but 107 US dollars for 4 gigs.. That is almost free.

[Cadaver]

Sorry to hear about your MBP woes. I've had one since mid-2006 and its been running just fine. Very reliable. Did get a replacement battery due to the whole recall thing, but didn't have issues prior and haven't had any since.

My wife has a 2.0GHz Core Duo MacBook which also has been running just fine since we bought it. Battery still holds a full charge, screen is still very bright. No "discoloration" or case cracking as some others have reported.

She and I have swapped computers (swapped the HDs so we could keep our respective apps & documents) because I want something less heavy and I want to try the 13" screen for a while to see if I could live with it in anticipation of a MacBook Air. I'm finding the MacBook - which is only 167MHz slower than my MBP - is a very capable machine, and I'm actually even thinking about keeping the MacBook instead of buy the Airbook.

But as for reliability, again sorry to hear about your bad experiences, but mine have been very positive all around. My Intel Macs, including a Mac Pro, have been more reliable than my previous PowerPC Macs (though I will admit that my parents are still using a 1GHz Ti PowerBook G4 and its still going strong all these years later).

[SierraDragon]

Originally Posted by The Placid Casual 

...the build quality of the 3 MBPs I have owned has been *awful*.

Interesting observation. Perhaps you somehow managed to get 3 classic "lemons." I would observe that general MBP reputation on the boards is for very good build quality. My experience has been that our MBPs have had essentially identical very good build quality as our PBs. The iBook (only experienced one) IMO was not as good.

As to plastic vs. aluminum I guess it is a matter of personal preference. Despite hard field usage my PBs and MBP show no visible damage, but frankly a cosmetic scratch or a dent would not bother me anyway; I prefer the ductility and durability of aluminum to the look and feel of plastic.

I do carefully inspect every new laptop and return any with build anomalies like screen warp of more than a mm or so.

Originally Posted by The Placid Casual 

...just how much is OS X worth?

Well, if one saved $1000 by going with a PC that would work out to something like 20 cents per hour to use Windows. Not for me thanks.

-Allen Wicks

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by shiff 

I do feel that Apple needs a better warranty program. Applecare is good but it would be really nice to have a "complete care" warranty like Dell offers. Being able to get the laptop repaired if you drop it or any other accidental damage is really nice. The warranty costs no more then Applecare. I am sure there are horror stories with that warranty too, but carrying around a 3k laptop and being scared to death that it is going to get dropped is a little frustrating.

What you want is insurance, and you can get that on a laptop. Heck, I had a friend whose policy gave him a top-of-the-line MacBook when he lost his old PowerBook.

[shiff]

I do have personal property insurance as well as the extra protection from my Amex card, but it would not hurt to have a better warranty from Apple. I know it may never happen, and it is not a show stopper, but it would be a welcome addition.

[gbhgbh]

Mac OS X costs $129. You can try to install it on the Dell.

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[mfbernstein]

Originally Posted by bballe336 

That dell laptop may cost far less but another thing you need to consider is the build quality. How sturdy is it going to be? I have not picked up a single PC laptop that I would consider sturdy, and I work on laptops daily (I work at a local computer store). PC laptops are generally built very poorly, between the loose batteries, wiggly keyboards, poorly placed power jacks, and overall cheap feel of most PC laptops I can justify the cost of an apple laptop to myself.

I don't have much income as a high school student, but for me a few hundred dollars isn't much of a premium to know that I am buying a laptop that is going to be higher quality and run the OS I like.

$300 or $400 amortized over the 2 to 3 year lifetime of a laptop isn't really so much, that's true (an extra $18 a month for the $400 over 2 years case).

Claiming, on the other hand, that there are no sturdy PC laptops, is a stretch. After it's 'innovations' with the MacBook (and current generation iMac), Apple is certainly in no position to boast about its keyboard offerings.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by bballe336 

That dell laptop may cost far less but another thing you need to consider is the build quality. How sturdy is it going to be? I have not picked up a single PC laptop that I would consider sturdy, and I work on laptops daily (I work at a local computer store)..

That's a bit of a stretch, no PC laptops are as sturdy? I've used IBMs, Dells, HPs and Compaqs and they were all very sturdy. The IBM, HP and Compaqs I had for > 3 each and they handled daily commutes, traveling and the demands found in using it in a business environment. Don't get me wrong, I prefer Macs, but you cannot say that there's no PCs that are as sturdy. Quite the contrary most are as sturdy.

[sideus]

I miss my 12 inch PowerBook G4. It was the best Apple laptop I've owned.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

That's a bit of a stretch, no PC laptops are as sturdy? I've used IBMs, Dells, HPs and Compaqs and they were all very sturdy. The IBM, HP and Compaqs I had for > 3 each and they handled daily commutes, traveling and the demands found in using it in a business environment. Don't get me wrong, I prefer Macs, but you cannot say that there's no PCs that are as sturdy. Quite the contrary most are as sturdy.

I have to agree with him - I've *never* used a PC laptop that didn't feel like a cheap rip-off of what a major brand should be building. They're all awful.

[zaghahzag]

Originally Posted by shiff 

At work we have over 10,000 Dell laptops and rarely ever have issues. Now if you buy the cheapest laptop they have, then I could definitely see quality issues.

what do you define as an issue. w/ 10k laptops there have to be problems. Dell might also give you a much better experience when they break, since you spent ~20million$ with them.

[bballe336]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

That's a bit of a stretch, no PC laptops are as sturdy? I've used IBMs, Dells, HPs and Compaqs and they were all very sturdy. The IBM, HP and Compaqs I had for > 3 each and they handled daily commutes, traveling and the demands found in using it in a business environment. Don't get me wrong, I prefer Macs, but you cannot say that there's no PCs that are as sturdy. Quite the contrary most are as sturdy.

IBM's are the sturdiest, and if I were to buy a PC laptop that's what it would be, but I have picked up numerous IBM T series laptops that had a very wiggly battery.

HP and compaq laptops are probably the least sturdy IMO, lots of flex on the keyboards, cheap casings, etc.

I have worked on many PC laptops, considering that is my job. And overall PC laptops feel cheap and are pretty flimsy unless you're spending a lot of money on them. The apple laptops on the other hand are a complete pain to repair, but they are sturdier and put together tighter.

Your experiences may be different, and I am not commenting on every single individual laptop, but overall my experience has been that unless you are going to buy an extremely expensive PC laptop you are going to get something that simply isn't as sturdy as it should be.