[mojo2]

[QUOTE]
Historical Background
Office of the Historian
Bureau of Public Affairs
Department of State

Significant Terrorist Incidents, 1961-2003: A Brief Chronology
I REMOVED THOSE OBVIOUSLY NOT MUSLIM RELATED

Attack on the Munich Airport, February 10, 1970: Three terrorists attacked El Al passengers in a bus at the Munich Airport with guns and grenades. One passenger was killed and 11 were injured. All three terrorists were captured by airport police. The Action Organization for the Liberation of Palestine and the Popular Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

Munich Olympic Massacre, September 5, 1972: Eight Palestinian "Black September" terrorists seized eleven Israeli athletes in the Olympic Village in Munich, West Germany. In a bungled rescue attempt by West German authorities, nine of the hostages and five terrorists were killed.

???Ambassador to Sudan Assassinated, March 2, 1973: U.S. Ambassador to Sudan Cleo A. Noel and other diplomats were assassinated at the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum by members of the Black September organization.

Attack and Hijacking at the Rome Airport, December 17, 1973: Five terrorists pulled weapons from their luggage in the terminal lounge at the Rome airport, killing two persons. They then attacked a Pan American 707 bound for Beirut and Tehran, destroying it with incendiary grenades and killing 29 persons, including 4 senior Moroccan officials and 14 American employees of ARAMCO. They then herded 5 Italian hostages into a Lufthansa airliner and killed an Italian customs agent as he tried to escape, after which they forced the pilot to fly to Beirut. After Lebanese authorities refused to let the plane land, it landed in Athens, where the terrorists demanded the release of 2 Arab terrorists. In order to make Greek authorities comply with their demands, the terrorists killed a hostage and threw his body onto the tarmac. The plane then flew to Damascus, where it stopped for two hours to obtain fuel and food. It then flew to Kuwait, where the terrorists released their hostages in return for passage to an unknown destination. The Palestine Liberation Organization disavowed the attack, and no group claimed responsibility for it.

Entebbe Hostage Crisis, June 27, 1976: Members of the Baader-Meinhof Group and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) seized an Air France airliner and its 258 passengers. They forced the plane to land in Uganda. On July 3 Israeli commandos successfully rescued the passengers.

Ambassador to Afghanistan Assassinated, February 14, 1979: Four Afghans kidnapped U.S. Ambassador Adolph Dubs in Kabul and demanded the release of various "religious figures." Dubs was killed, along with four alleged terrorists, when Afghan police stormed the hotel room where he was being held.

Iran Hostage Crisis, November 4, 1979: After President Carter agreed to admit the Shah of Iran into the US, Iranian radicals seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. Thirteen hostages were soon released, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981.

Grand Mosque Seizure, November 20, 1979: 200 Islamic terrorists seized the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, taking hundreds of pilgrims hostage. Saudi and French security forces retook the shrine after an intense battle in which some 250 people were killed and 600 wounded.

Assassination of Egyptian President, October 6, 1981: Soldiers who were secretly members of the Takfir Wal-Hajira sect attacked and killed Egyptian President Anwar Sadat during a troop review.

Assassination of Lebanese Prime Minister, September 14, 1982: Premier Bashir Gemayel was assassinated by a car bomb parked outside his party’s Beirut headquarters.

1983

Bombing of U.S. Embassy in Beirut, April 18, 1983: Sixty-three people, including the CIA’s Middle East director, were killed and 120 were injured in a 400-pound suicide truck-bomb attack on the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Bombing of Marine Barracks, Beirut, October 23, 1983: Simultaneous suicide truck-bomb attacks were made on American and French compounds in Beirut, Lebanon. A 12,000-pound bomb destroyed the U.S. compound, killing 242 Americans, while 58 French troops were killed when a 400-pound device destroyed a French base. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

1984

Kidnapping of Embassy Official, March 16, 1984: The Islamic Jihad kidnapped and later murdered Political Officer William Buckley in Beirut, Lebanon. Other U.S. citizens not connected to the U.S. government were seized over a succeeding two-year period.

1985

TWA Hijacking, June 14, 1985: A Trans-World Airlines flight was hijacked en route to Rome from Athens by two Lebanese Hizballah terrorists and forced to fly to Beirut. The eight crew members and 145 passengers were held for seventeen days, during which one American hostage, a U.S. Navy sailor, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft was returned to Beirut after Israel released 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners.

Soviet Diplomats Kidnapped, September 30, 1985: In Beirut, Lebanon, Sunni terrorists kidnapped four Soviet diplomats. One was killed but three were later released.

Achille Lauro Hijacking, October 7, 1985: Four Palestinian Liberation Front terrorists seized the Italian cruise liner in the eastern Mediterranean Sea, taking more than 700 hostages. One U.S. passenger was murdered before the Egyptian government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages’ freedom.

Egyptian Airliner Hijacking, November 23, 1985: An EgyptAir airplane bound from Athens to Malta and carrying several U.S. citizens was hijacked by the Abu Nidal Group.

Airport Attacks in Rome and Vienna, December 27, 1985: Four gunmen belonging to the Abu Nidal Organization attacked the El Al and Trans World Airlines ticket counters at Rome’s Leonardo da Vinci Airport with grenades and automatic rifles. Thirteen persons were killed and 75 were wounded before Italian police and Israeli security guards killed three of the gunmen and captured the fourth. Three more Abu Nidal gunmen attacked the El Al ticket counter at Vienna’s Schwechat Airport, killing three persons and wounding 30. Austrian police killed one of the gunmen and captured the others.

1986

Aircraft Bombing in Greece, March 30, 1986: A Palestinian splinter group detonated a bomb as TWA Flight 840 approached Athens airport, killing four U.S. citizens.

Berlin Discothèque Bombing, April 5, 1986: Two U.S. soldiers were killed and 79 American servicemen were injured in a Libyan bomb attack on a nightclub in West Berlin, West Germany. In retaliation U.S. military jets bombed targets in and around Tripoli and Benghazi.

1987


1988

Kidnapping of William Higgins, February 17, 1988: U.S. Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel W. Higgins was kidnapped and murdered by the Iranian-backed Hizballah group while serving with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization (UNTSO) in southern Lebanon.

Naples USO Attack, April 14, 1988: The Organization of Jihad Brigades exploded a car-bomb outside a USO Club in Naples, Italy, killing one U.S. sailor.

Pan Am 103 Bombing, December 21, 1988: Pan American Airlines Flight 103 was blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb believed to have been placed on the aircraft by Libyan terrorists in Frankfurt, West Germany. All 259 people on board were killed.

1989

Bombing of UTA Flight 772, September 19, 1989: A bomb explosion destroyed UTA Flight 772 over the Sahara Desert in southern Niger during a flight from Brazzaville to Paris. All 170 persons aboard were killed. Six Libyans were later found guilty in absentia and sentenced to life imprisonment.

1990

???U.S. Embassy Bombed in Peru, January 15, 1990: The Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement bombed the U.S. Embassy in Lima, Peru.

1991

???Attempted Iraqi Attacks on U.S. Posts, January 18-19, 1991: Iraqi agents planted bombs at the U.S. Ambassador to Indonesia’s home residence and at the USIS library in Manila.

1992

Bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Argentina, March 17, 1992: Hizballah claimed responsibility for a blast that leveled the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, causing the deaths of 29 and wounding 242.

1993

World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993: The World Trade Center in New York City was badly damaged when a car bomb planted by Islamic terrorists exploded in an underground garage. The bomb left 6 people dead and 1,000 injured. The men carrying out the attack were followers of Umar Abd al-Rahman, an Egyptian cleric who preached in the New York City area.

Attempted Assassination of President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993: The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack 2 months later on the Iraqi capital Baghdad.

1994

Hebron Massacre, February 25, 1994: Jewish right-wing extremist and U.S. citizen Baruch Goldstein machine-gunned Moslem worshippers at a mosque in West Bank town of Hebron, killing 29 and wounding about 150.

Air France Hijacking, December 24, 1994: Members of the Armed Islamic Group seized an Air France Flight to Algeria. The four terrorists were killed during a rescue effort.

1995

Attack on U.S. Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995: Two unidentified gunmen killed two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan.

???Bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, April 19, 1995: Right-wing extremists Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols destroyed the Federal Building in Oklahoma City with a massive truck bomb that killed 166 and injured hundreds more in what was up to then the largest terrorist attack on American soil.

Jerusalem Bus Attack, August 21, 1995: HAMAS claimed responsibility for the detonation of a bomb that killed 6 and injured over 100 persons, including several U.S. citizens.

Attack on U.S. Embassy in Moscow, September 13, 1995: A rocket-propelled grenade was fired through the window of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, ostensibly in retaliation for U.S. strikes on Serb positions in Bosnia.

Saudi Military Installation Attack, November 13, 1995: The Islamic Movement of Change planted a bomb in a Riyadh military compound that killed one U.S. citizen, several foreign national employees of the U.S. government, and over 40 others.

Egyptian Embassy Attack, November 19, 1995: A suicide bomber drove a vehicle into the Egyptian Embassy compound in Islamabad, Pakistan, killing at least 16 and injuring 60 persons. Three militant Islamic groups claimed responsibility.

1996

HAMAS Bus Attack, February 26, 1996: In Jerusalem, a suicide bomber blew up a bus, killing 26 persons, including three U.S. citizens, and injuring some 80 persons, including three other US citizens.

Dizengoff Center Bombing, March 4, 1996: HAMAS and the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) both claimed responsibility for a bombing outside of Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall that killed 20 persons and injured 75 others, including 2 U.S. citizens.

West Bank Attack, May 13, 1996: Arab gunmen opened fire on a bus and a group of Yeshiva students near the Bet El settlement, killing a dual U.S./Israeli citizen and wounding three Israelis. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but HAMAS was suspected.

Zekharya Attack, June 9, 1996: Unidentified gunmen opened fire on a car near Zekharya, killing a dual U.S./Israeli citizen and an Israeli. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) was suspected.

Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996: A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the US military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack.

Bombing of Archbishop of Oran, August 1, 1996: A bomb exploded at the home of the French Archbishop of Oran, killing him and his chauffeur. The attack occurred after the Archbishop's meeting with the French Foreign Minister. The Algerian Armed Islamic Group (GIA) is suspected.

Sudanese Rebel Kidnapping, August 17, 1996: Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA) rebels kidnapped six missionaries in Mapourdit, including a U.S. citizen, an Italian, three Australians, and a Sudanese. The SPLA released the hostages 11 days later.

PUK Kidnapping, September 13, 1996: In Iraq, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) militants kidnapped four French workers for Pharmaciens Sans Frontieres, a Canadian United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) official, and two Iraqis.

Red Cross Worker Kidnappings, November 1, 1996: In Sudan a breakaway group from the Sudanese People's Liberation Army (SPLA) kidnapped three International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) workers, including a U.S. citizen, an Australian, and a Kenyan. On 9 December the rebels released the hostages in exchange for ICRC supplies and a health survey for their camp.

???Paris Subway Explosion, December 3, 1996: A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train as it arrived at the Port Royal station, killing two French nationals, a Moroccan, and a Canadian, and injuring 86 persons. Among those injured were one U.S. citizen and a Canadian. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but Algerian extremists are suspected.

???Tupac Amaru Seizure of Diplomats, December 17, 1996: Twenty-three members of the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA) took several hundred people hostage at a party given at the Japanese Ambassador's residence in Lima, Peru. Among the hostages were several US officials, foreign ambassadors and other diplomats, Peruvian Government officials, and Japanese businessmen. The group demanded the release of all MRTA members in prison and safe passage for them and the hostage takers. The terrorists released most of the hostages in December but held 81 Peruvians and Japanese citizens for several months.

1997

Egyptian Letter Bombs, January 2-13, 1997: A series of letter bombs with Alexandria, Egypt, postmarks were discovered at Al-Hayat newspaper bureaus in Washington, New York City, London, and Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Three similar devices, also postmarked in Egypt, were found at a prison facility in Leavenworth, Kansas. Bomb disposal experts defused all the devices, but one detonated at the Al-Hayat office in London, injuring two security guards and causing minor damage.

Tajik Hostage Abductions, February 4-17, 1997: Near Komsomolabad, Tajikistan, a paramilitary group led by Bakhrom Sodirov abducted four United Nations (UN) military observers. The victims included two Swiss, one Austrian, one Ukrainian, and their Tajik interpreter. The kidnappers demanded safe passage for their supporters from Afghanistan to Tajikistan. In four separate incidents occurring between Dushanbe and Garm, Bakhrom Sodirov and his group kidnapped two International Committee for the Red Cross members, four Russian journalists and their Tajik driver, four UNHCR members, and the Tajik Security Minister, Saidamir Zukhurov.

Empire State Building Sniper Attack, February 23, 1997: A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."

Israeli Shopping Mall Bombing, September 4, 1997: Three suicide bombers of HAMAS detonated bombs in the Ben Yehuda shopping mall in Jerusalem, killing eight persons, including the bombers, and wounding nearly 200 others. A dual U.S./Israeli citizen was among the dead, and 7 U.S. citizens were wounded.

Yemeni Kidnappings, October 30, 1997: Al-Sha'if tribesmen kidnapped a U.S. businessman near Sanaa. The tribesmen sought the release of two fellow tribesmen who were arrested on smuggling charges and several public works projects they claim the government promised them. They released the hostage on November 27.

Murder of U.S. Businessmen in Pakistan, November 12, 1997: Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum Corporation and their Pakistani driver after they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. The Islami Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council, claimed responsibility in a call to the U.S. Consulate in Karachi. In a letter to Pakistani newspapers, the Aimal Khufia Action Committee also claimed responsibility.

Tourist Killings in Egypt, November 17, 1997: Al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya (IG) gunmen shot and killed 58 tourists and four Egyptians and wounded 26 others at the Hatshepsut Temple in the Valley of the Kings near Luxor. Thirty-four Swiss, eight Japanese, five Germans, four Britons, one French, one Colombian, a dual Bulgarian/British citizen, and four unidentified persons were among the dead. Twelve Swiss, two Japanese, two Germans, one French, and nine Egyptians were among the wounded.

1998

???UN Observer Abductions, February 19, 1998: Armed supporters of late Georgian president Zviad Gamsakhurdia abducted four UN military observers from Sweden, Uruguay, and the Czech Republic.

Somali Hostage-takings, April 15, 1998: Somali militiamen abducted nine Red Cross and Red Crescent workers at an airstrip north of Mogadishu. The hostages included a U.S. citizen, a German, a Belgian, a French, a Norwegian, two Swiss, and one Somali. The gunmen were members of a sub-clan loyal to Ali Mahdi Mohammed, who controlled the northern section of the capital.

U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998: A bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, killing 12 U.S. citizens, 32 Foreign Service Nationals (FSNs), and 247 Kenyan citizens. Approximately 5,000 Kenyans, 6 U.S. citizens, and 13 FSNs were injured. The U.S. Embassy building sustained extensive structural damage. Almost simultaneously, a bomb detonated outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing 7 FSNs and 3 Tanzanian citizens, and injuring 1 U.S. citizen and 76 Tanzanians. The explosion caused major structural damage to the U.S. Embassy facility. The U.S. Government held Usama Bin Laden responsible.

1999

Greek Embassy Seizure, February 16, 1999: Kurdish protesters stormed and occupied the Greek Embassy in Vienna, taking the Greek Ambassador and six other persons hostage. Several hours later the protesters released the hostages and left the Embassy. The attack followed the Turkish Government's announcement of the successful capture of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) leader Abdullah Ocalan. Kurds also occupied Kenyan, Israeli, and other Greek diplomatic facilities in France, Holland, Switzerland, Britain, and Germany over the following days.

2000

[mojo2]

Let's say you, dear reader, started a religion and you decided to make sure that even after more than 30 years and your followers having taken over many hundreds of thousands of square miles of territory and taken hundreds of thousands of lives, your movement STILL enjoyed deference among the people and governments of the world who SAY they hate violence and are committed to justice, liberty and equality for all.

How would you set up YOUR religion?

[swrate]

Originally Posted by swrate

yes, merci

They should hire many these youths in the Police, and send them in those suburbs as they used to do, at least in the social services, instead of cutting on the funds. In France, they hardly hire "coloured" "typed" Policemen, whereas in UK security is held by all sorts of ethnicities.

Witnesses said those kids were chased after, if the cops knew those kids were there, i hope they will be charged with homicide: "non assistance à personne en danger"
the story reminds me of the UK cops; authority feels covered by the hierarchy and fires at innocents, or lets innocents be electrocuted….or…..

Power trip of a few, added to racism, superiority complexes, in zones where the differences are growing and showing. Equal chances? Mon oeil. Anyway.
same ole same ole same ole, all over, evidenced in NO,
Bronx, or some areas in Queens anyone?

yes, well if anyone knew those two kids (15 &19) were about to go into the transformator,
they should of told them not to go in there. period.

yes, i am glad, "non assistance à personne en danger " may happen, according to end of afp article.
http://www.afp.com/francais/news/sto....4ghww2vv.html

Nicolas Sarkozy’s politics are too repressive; cités used to have « police de proximité » work to help youths find jobs, give them advice, and punish them when needed, without cutting communication, too bad they cut the budgets down, now they will have to build new prisons.
The situation -who was as it is not rosy for many- is now worse, the lowest classes are affected the most in times of crisis. No new lodgements, housings in lousy neighbourhoods, restrictions linked to name and colour….
not all are Muslims, the DomTom, Antilles, Guadeloupe, Guyanne, Martiniqu, Polynésie…..the political refugiees, Rwanda seneagal, sierraleone, zambie....... talk French....Réunion, from Ivory coast, Tunisia, Marocco, Egypt were French colonies,
plus Algerians helped fight in wars, WWI, WWII,
Calling those citizens crap publically (Sarkozy= state= system) was offensive; the population is traumatized as were the New-Orleaners after the judgements and critics passed on them after they survived Katrina..
Enemployement, inactive and uneducated kids, that’s the main problem.


a lot of rubbish here, at MacNN, as if head scarf ban was the reason !
i think the same situation could easily happen in any capital of the planet, in US i.e., riots of mainly blacks and Hispanics, many are part of the "under classes", oppressed, living in more then modest neighbourhoods.
"you guys" would send Security and the Feds in huge amounts faster, and order curfew, so the riots would not last that long.

i hope that clearing up the circumstances around the "electrocution" of those teenagers will calm the riots down i think that Mister Sarcozy should do public excuses for his insultes to la "France d'en bas" -mon opinion

[NYCFarmboy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4402618.stm











8 days now, when will the French "gov't" put a stop to this insanity.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by swrate

yes, well if anyone knew those two kids (15 &19) were about to go into the transformator,
they should of told them not to go in there. period.

yes, i am glad, "non assistance à personne en danger " may happen, according to end of afp article.
http://www.afp.com/francais/news/sto....4ghww2vv.html

Nicolas Sarkozy’s politics are too repressive; cités used to have « police de proximité » work to help youths find jobs, give them advice, and punish them when needed, without cutting communication, too bad they cut the budgets down, now they will have to build new prisons.
The situation -who was as it is not rosy for many- is now worse, the lowest classes are affected the most in times of crisis. No new lodgements, housings in lousy neighbourhoods, restrictions linked to name and colour….
not all are Muslims, the DomTom, Antilles, Guadeloupe, Guyanne, Martiniqu, Polynésie…..the political refugiees, Rwanda seneagal, sierraleone, zambie....... talk French....Réunion, from Ivory coast, Tunisia, Marocco, Egypt were French colonies,
plus Algerians helped fight in wars, WWI, WWII,
Calling those citizens crap publically (Sarkozy= state= system) was offensive; the population is traumatized as were the New-Orleaners after the judgements and critics passed on them after they survived Katrina..
Enemployement, inactive and uneducated kids, that’s the main problem.


a lot of rubbish here, at MacNN, as if head scarf ban was the reason !
i think the same situation could easily happen in any capital of the planet, in US i.e., riots of mainly blacks and Hispanics, many are part of the "under classes", oppressed, living in more then modest neighbourhoods.
"you guys" would send Security and the Feds in huge amounts faster, and order curfew, so the riots would not last that long.

i hope that clearing up the circumstances around the "electrocution" of those teenagers will calm the riots down i think that Mister Sarcozy should do public excuses for his insultes to la "France d'en bas" -mon opinion

I regret the ability to simply produce for you a link which would take you directly to where this was previously posted, so here it is again. And, FOR THE RECORD I hesitated in using the headscarf example because I really didn't think it was the reason and so I wrote (INSERT OTHER REASON) right next to it. But I should have realized who would be reading it! (Troll and MacNN'ers!!!) Sacre Bleu!

As a member of a racial minority, I understand the thought of those who, through no fault of their own, have the doors to opportunity closed to them. Who closes those doors?

The MAN! Whitey! Peckerwoods.

Yet, they say that "some of their best friends are colored."

Then let's look at who these best friends are.

They have the same values, the same education. maybe went to the same schools.

So, they are similiar to each other.

But don't the men who hire have colored friends who are SOMEWHAT different? Look at skin color, for instance!

Yes, but, most people don't CARE about the skin color, per se. They care about what it means. Just like my grandad always liked the way the WWII Nazi uniforms looked, he hated the Nazis. Skin color is a uniform. It gives a general clue as to what a person's values are. Two people can have different colors and be quite different in a number of ways, but if they aren't SIMILAR in one important way then they will not be friends and they MAY be discriminated against.

What is this important similarity?

I haven't read enough to know how closely science backs me up on this but the important similarities, IMHO, are these:

Willingness to work hard, diligently, honestly, and get along with everyone in whatever environment were talking about.

That they be supportive of the societal and governmental organizations that act as a gird or a framework upon which everything in this country/community derives strength and stability and assures the possibility of continuing the way of life we enjoy.

That certain basic fundamental assumptions are embraced, like, not doing anything illegal or associating with people who do. Not likely to physically endanger anyone. Not likely to prove to be an embarrassment.

When you look at ALL cases of dis-empowerment at the personal or community level, IMHO, IT ALWAYS boils down to these factors.

A few days ago either barbara or laura Bush said that kids shouldn't get tattoos if they want an easier time getting employment.

Why would this be true, if it is true?

(I say it is.) Because there's a lingering stigma that says most of the people who wear tats have a different set of values from those I mentioned above. Therefore, the manager or business owner will look for someone else. Sure, the tat girl might be a Sunday school tecaher and the person hired INSTEAD of tat girl could be dating a drug dealer.

That's the way it works! You don't have to like the game, just so you UNDERSTAND THE RULES.

With regard to the immigrant Muslims in France, they have multiple things going against them.

Immigrant. Color. Young. Muslim.

Immigrants are different than the natives of any country. Things that are different are suspect. Thus, not similar. There's strike one. They are colored. Some people still use color as a uniform to identify those with different values. Rightly or wrongly, strike two. Young. Everyone knows young people are suspect. They just can't escape it. Yet, every old person was once young. And if a young person has drive and ambition and is courteous and has good grades and APPEARS to have the right values (See values mentioned above) the hiring person may see him or herself in that young person and give them a chance. Muslim. For many people, the desire to NOT be unfair will prompt them to hire a Muslim. And, being just like any other person, that Muslim employee will do a good job or not. There should be no difference in regarding a person simply due to their religion. That is just wrong and abominable. But there IS a difference in religions.

And as people come to see for themselves and understand exactly what the religion of Islam calls for and what is happening BECAUSE of this religion then it becomes and has become a reason, an understandable reason why some people might not want to hire a Muslim or even rent to one.

There is something about the religion that forces their followers to take over whatever organization they are in and something about the religion that forces some of their followers to murder non-Muslims.

There is my analysis of the problem you describe.

The solution, at least for the muslims, is completely up to them. Or else, the non-Muslim world will impose IT'S solution which won't be as nice or easy.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by NYCFarmboy

8 days now, when will the French "gov't" put a stop to this insanity.

Dunno. Any helpful Americans/Brits/Canadians vacationing in Normandy?

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Dunno. Any helpful Americans/Brits/Canadians vacationing in Normandy?

yes.

[Face Ache]

This is about a lack of opportunity and a sense of rejection. If society hates you, you hate it right back.

Putting it down to being a race issue is just an insult.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Face Ache

Putting it down to being a race issue is just an insult.

Nobody was putting it down to being a race issue.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by NYCFarmboy

8 days now, when will the French "gov't" put a stop to this insanity.

What do you care?

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Nobody was putting it down to being a race issue.

Ah sorry. I tend to write long rambling posts and then edit them down until they make as little sense as possible.

I meant to say "religious issue".

[Spliffdaddy]

If you're waiting for France to solve a problem, you'll be waiting a long damn time.

Historically, they look to the USA to fix whatever goes wrong. Which absolves them from any warranty issues in the future, should it break again.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by NYCFarmboy

yes.


[img]http://www.painetworks.com/photos/hf/hf1416.JPG

There's a line in the 60's song by the Angels, "My Boyfriend's Back" that goes...

"My boyfriend's back, he's going to save my reputation, if I were you I'd take a permanent vacation...."

Ordinarily I'd be smiling at that but in this case it isn't funny that those boys buried there are there permanently and it's not really a vacation.

But, Doofy's comment was funny and I was looking for Spliffdaddy's sig so I could post it with my comment about Doofy's comment...but I guess I saw a shiny toy in the distance and became distracted.

So, here it is. Thanks Spliffdaddy! Soooooo many times your sig has proven to be true! And now, once again...!

Strange how the folks who claim we can't do anything right - are the same folks asking when we're gonna fix the next problem.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Face Ache

Ah sorry. I tend to write long rambling posts and then edit them down until they make as little sense as possible.

I meant to say "religious issue".

Face Ache
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Today, 08:10 PM

This is about a lack of opportunity and a sense of rejection. If society hates you, you hate it right back.

Putting it down to being a race issue is just an insult.
__________________

You don't read the whole thread before posting, huh?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by swrate

yes, well if anyone knew those two kids (15 &19) were about to go into the transformator,
they should of told them not to go in there. period.

The Police were trying to catch these kids and the kids were running away and hiding from the Police. If they were close enough to talk to the children, don't you think they would have saidd something like "Bougez pas." I don't see how they could have prevented the children from jumping that wall. If they could have done so, they also could have caught the kids.

The non assistance claim is based on the Police not immediately having entered the sub station when they suspected the kids were in there. One of the cops did climb on a bin and look over but saw nothing. Then they found two other kids behind a grave and apparently assumed it was the same two who had actually jumped the wall. They arrested those two and left the area.

I question whether, if this had happened in the 7th arrondisement of Paris, the cops would have acted differently. I doubt it. And you know, if you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime.

Originally Posted by swrate

i hope that clearing up the circumstances around the "electrocution" of those teenagers will calm the riots down i think that Mister Sarcozy should do public excuses for his insultes to la "France d'en bas" -mon opinion

Whilst I don't like Sarkozy one little bit, his comments have been taken out of context by you. He said that the people that are throwing rocks and burning cars are "scum", not that immigrants are scum.

For the rest, I absolutely agree with you. I think this demonisation of Muslims is plain old discrimination.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by mojo2

You don't read the whole thread before posting, huh?

Get a grip ya loon.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I have personally been through St-Denis several times, out of sheer curiousity, and I find that the district looks as though it has been directly transplanted from North Africa. It is a sad sight.

I see, Africa LOOKS bad. Yuck, African, ick - right? Forgive me if I don't share your aesthetic problem with St. Denis looking like Casablanca!

For me, the problem with North Africa is not that it LOOKS bad. It's that parts of it are violent, most of it is economically depressed and people have fewer opportunities. If you could take the poverty and lack of freedom out of Marrakesh, I'd have no problem transplanting it to St. Denis. I can guarantee you that Cote d'Ivoiriens are not coming to Paris because it looks pretty and they're not rioting because it looks like Lubumbashi.

Here's what I don't understand about some of the people from the right. The very same guy who says, "***** Africa. Let them kill each other and drown in their corruption," says "We don't want those stinky immigrants chez nous." You can look in these fora to see people who think Africa is a corrupt cess pool that the West should write off for a few years and yet they will be the first to complain about immigration and terrorism and violence. It's all the same problem. Whether you deal with the problem in the Ivory Coast or in the suburbs of Paris, you're going to have to deal with the problem at some point. Personally, I think it's more cost effective to deal with it at the source.

I was in Nigeria last week. You look around Lagos and it's not hard to see why people leave Lagos, why they rip you off on the Internet or why they turn to Islamic fundamentalism. The only people that are coming to them with an explanation for why they live in the hellhole that Lagos is are the Islamic fundamentalists. If I was a young man living there, would I be attracted to the teachings of a Christian missionary who tells me to love my neighbour, work hard and accept my lot or to the radical Imam who tells me that the West is responsible for our plight and that the repression we've suffered for centuries won't end until we fight them?

I don't think enough is being done in the places where fundamentalism has appeal to replace the fundamentalist message with something else; something that goes beyond telling them to take it lying down. We're not dealing with the problem at the source and so it's coming to us. The source is not a religious conspiracy though. That is not the appeal of the fundamentalist message. It's the political message I mentioned before that certain fundamentalists have tacked on to Islam that's attracting them. That political message is offering a way out of poverty and a way to close the gap between them and us (through violence). The alternative messages that presuppose that the world is a big flat playing field with fair referees guiding the game don't work because they are transparent lies. People in the cité see that every day when they catch the RER into work. People see that in Haiti when they watch Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.

In my opinion, we have to commit to dealing with the poverty gap through honest dialogue. Dialogue that recognises that the poor are not solely to blame for their poverty and that there is a lot we can and will do to commit to free trade, fair environmental measures and poverty reduction measures. That message needs to be packaged up and marketed to the poor so that it competes with radical teachings and it needs to show results. We need to start seeing school construction in Liberia and dropping of trade barriers as means of curbing immigration and reducing terrorism. Of course, I'm not excluding putting criminals in the cités in jail for their crimes or fighting terrorists where necessary as well, but I think there's too much of a focus today on the symptoms and not enough focus on the cause of the illness.

[Y3a]

Those who are rioting because of 'being oppressed' should wake up and understand that the ignorance they enjoy is 3rd world countries will not get them anywhere in a more advanced and technical culture (French Culture?). They, by their OWN IGNORANCE are oppressing themselves. it was a mistake to remove people from their original countries. You only get the government you deserve, and instead of overthrowing the bad dictators, they are 'rescued' by the liberal French, and this is the thanks they get. This is why immigration for political reasons is BS. Stupid idea anyway!

The French need to get really tough on them and shoot to kill. Unless they regain control, they will loose the entire country to the violent and ignorant thugs. It's a shame the weak minded and ignorant masses fall for the Islamic BS of a better way.

[Dakar]

You always seem to be up for shoot to kill.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

If you're waiting for France to solve a problem, you'll be waiting a long damn time.

Historically, they look to the USA to fix whatever goes wrong. Which absolves them from any warranty issues in the future, should it break again.

Jingoism carried to the absurd, unless your view of history is confined to the year 1944. While the U.S. may carry a lot of weight in some areas of foreign affairs, I assure you it does not occupy every waking moment in the minds of European policymakers.

[swrate]

Originally Posted by Troll

The Police were trying to catch these kids and the kids were running away and hiding from the Police. If they were close enough to talk to the children, don't you think they would have saidd something like "Bougez pas." I don't see how they could have prevented the children from jumping that wall. If they could have done so, they also could have caught the kids.

The non assistance claim is based on the Police not immediately having entered the sub station when they suspected the kids were in there. One of the cops did climb on a bin and look over but saw nothing. Then they found two other kids behind a grave and apparently assumed it was the same two who had actually jumped the wall. They arrested those two and left the area.

I question whether, if this had happened in the 7th arrondisement of Paris, the cops would have acted differently. I doubt it. And you know, if you don't want to do the time, don't do the crime.
Whilst I don't like Sarkozy one little bit, his comments have been taken out of context by you. He said that the people that are throwing rocks and burning cars are "scum", not that immigrants are scum.

For the rest, I absolutely agree with you. I think this demonisation of Muslims is plain old discrimination.

well the cops were informed by radio the kids were going to go into the transformator, i read from two sources, net and newspaper, but i do not know exactly what the claim was based on, and if you live in France, Paris, no doubt your sources are better then mine, though i believe this is a situation where one would have had to witness the scene to know exactly what went on. Under certain circumstances and knowing how swift kids can be, i realize it could of been an impossible task to tell them not to go there.
Yet again for political reasons the truth may be arranged in a way it is convenient for all parts (cops and parents of kids and public)



Yes, the Sarkozy propos was out of context, canaille, each time i hear his declarations I cringe. His way of pulling down others all the time… i was thinking of something he said a few weeks ago to a crowd of people, his lack of respect, it’s a general feeling, a climate of deterioration, the result of the last years politics.Un ras le bol général. No hope for kids des banlieues.

On swiss teletext today it mentions that the brother of the younger deceased boys asked the movements of destruction and violence to cease. Let me try and find it for you on the web http://www.swisstxt.ch/TSR1/134-00.html great teletext is on the net

City kids, The danger is their recuperation by powerful and dangerous radical movements, /see Le Pen, or others, a too strict or oppressive reaction from the government would skew rioters into more dangerous violence.

[Monique]

If you have any illigence you will fend for yourself when you arrived to a new country. You will learn the language and find a place to live and work. Also, if you want to recreate your old country in the new one you should stay in the old country or find a place which is similar to what you are used to.

As for headscarves they should continue and be banned from schools; or those Muslims girls should learn to say some Our Father and some Jewish prayers too. If Hijab (I think it is the correct term) are a sign of religious domination over women (who are too brainwashed to realize it) then we should accept that other people rights should be denied like having Muslims people pray Christian and Jewish prayers in school.

It seems that those riots are based on people not accepting that they have responsibilities and they should try more than 5 minutes to look for a job and other lodging.

When I came to Calgary which in Canada is another country from Quebec, I knew I would have to speak in English, adapt my lifestyle to another, and look for work; it took me 7 months and I sent 836 resumes but I got this contract job for a few months and then it took me 10 months (during which I went back to school to learn new computer programs) during which I sent 527 resumes and I got this job for 3 years, then I sent 267 resumes in 5 weeks and I got my job at Telus and now I am on a lockout situation and still I found temporary work and I will be in my 10th week, next week.

It is feasible to find work, not great work but buying groceries, paying for your rent and utilities and other stuff is more important than anything else.

So if those Muslims really wanted to integrate themselves to the French society they could do it. But, they don't want to, they prefer to whine and tell lies that their rights are being deny, they refuse to obey the law of the new land they live in and when they meet some resistence, they riot against the people that had the generosity to welcome them.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Monique

When I came to Calgary which in Canada is another country from Quebec, I knew I would have to speak in English, adapt my lifestyle to another, and look for work; it took me 7 months and I sent 836 resumes but I got this contract job for a few months and then it took me 10 months (during which I went back to school to learn new computer programs) during which I sent 527 resumes and I got this job for 3 years, then I sent 267 resumes in 5 weeks and I got my job at Telus and now I am on a lockout situation and still I found temporary work and I will be in my 10th week, next week.

Monique, I don't mean to be nasty, but moving from Quebec to Calgary is nothing like what a political or economic refugee in Paris has been through.

1) Did you move because people were committing genocide in Quebec, or was it because unemployment rates in Quebec were up around 90% or was it because disease was rife and services non-existent?

2) Did you sell everything you owned to pay a smuggler to get you into Calgary?

3) Did you have the right to work when you arrived in Calgary or did you have to go to the cops and start applying for papers?

4) During the years when it was illegal for you to work, how did you provide for yourself? Did you perhaps rely on government housing?

I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. African immigrants to France don't wake up one morning and decide that it would be cool to move to France for a bit. They're forced out of Africa and they arrive with no papers, no right to work and a whole bunch of other challenges and baggage that you did not have when you arrived in Calgary.

Originally Posted by Monique

So if those Muslims really wanted to integrate themselves ...

Thing is, this is not a Muslim thing. Christians and Jews from Eastern Europe and Africa, Buddhists from Asia all have the same problem. It has nothing to do with religion.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Monique

If you have any illigence you will fend for yourself when you arrived to a new country. You will learn the language and find a place to live and work. Also, if you want to recreate your old country in the new one you should stay in the old country or find a place which is similar to what you are used to.

As for headscarves they should continue and be banned from schools; or those Muslims girls should learn to say some Our Father and some Jewish prayers too. If Hijab (I think it is the correct term) are a sign of religious domination over women (who are too brainwashed to realize it) then we should accept that other people rights should be denied like having Muslims people pray Christian and Jewish prayers in school.

It seems that those riots are based on people not accepting that they have responsibilities and they should try more than 5 minutes to look for a job and other lodging.

When I came to Calgary which in Canada is another country from Quebec, I knew I would have to speak in English, adapt my lifestyle to another, and look for work; it took me 7 months and I sent 836 resumes but I got this contract job for a few months and then it took me 10 months (during which I went back to school to learn new computer programs) during which I sent 527 resumes and I got this job for 3 years, then I sent 267 resumes in 5 weeks and I got my job at Telus and now I am on a lockout situation and still I found temporary work and I will be in my 10th week, next week.

It is feasible to find work, not great work but buying groceries, paying for your rent and utilities and other stuff is more important than anything else.

So if those Muslims really wanted to integrate themselves to the French society they could do it. But, they don't want to, they prefer to whine and tell lies that their rights are being deny, they refuse to obey the law of the new land they live in and when they meet some resistence, they riot against the people that had the generosity to welcome them.

What a story of successes! I admire your willingness and ability to do what is necessary to get the job done. It really does say something about you. I am proud of you and glad, despite the slight abuse you may get from me or others here, that you continue to share your thoughts with us here and allow us to continue to abuse you.

EDIT: Oh, and as for your comments and advice re: the French immigrants?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by swrate

well the cops were informed by radio the kids were going to go into the transformator, i read from two sources, net and newspaper, but i do not know exactly what the claim was based on, and if you live in France, Paris, no doubt your sources are better then mine, though i believe this is a situation where one would have had to witness the scene to know exactly what went on. Under certain circumstances and knowing how swift kids can be, i realize it could of been an impossible task to tell them not to go there.

I think I probably read the same story as you did. It said that 5 kids hid in the cemetry. A cop called the central command station on the radio and said he saw two kids trying to climb the 3m wall into the EDF transformer station. A cop climbed on a dustbin and tried to look over the 3m high wall. He didn't see the kids (3 of them had in fact climbed over and had tried to hide under a transformer). A little while later, the cops in the cemetry arrested two boys. It appears that they thought that the 2 they arrested were the same 2 that had been reported as climbing the wall earlier.

That aside, I'm not sure the facts make any difference at all. Let's say the cops had been close enough and had screamed to the boys not to jump the wall. Do you think the boys would have stopped? These are kids that are already on the run from the Police. They would have jumped that wall no matter what. Also, bear in mind that the community is angry because they say the cops chased the kids (something the cops deny). Now you seem to be saying that the cops should have been chasing them at least so that they were close enough to yell out to the kids. Seems the cops are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Finally, I don't think that they would be guilty of non assistance by virtue of not preventing the kids from entering the EDF site. Non assistance is a crime involving a failure to assist someone in distress. It's when someone is injured and you don't intervene when your intervention would save them. Unless these kids died over a period of time when the cops knew or should have known that they were injured, there is no case. Knowing what I know about transformers, I don't see that the cops could have done anything to help the kids. They would have died instantaneously.

The best part is that when paramedics did come to help the boys, they were attacked! I'm with you when you say that circumstances probably drove these kids to crime, but that's a different debate that France could have in a far more civilised way. These banlieuearts are not making themselves any friends by complaining that the cops are responsible for criminals that kill themselves while trying to defeat justice nor by committing the violence they're committing now. Notably, burning cars, schools, gymansiums and property that belongs to France's poorest people, is not the way to go about things.

I don't like Sarkozy but you know, at least he does something. We've heard of so many plans for the banlieue and it's all words. Sarko doesn't mince words. He's an action man. I believe him when he says that his plan is to get rid of crime and create jobs. He's rough, but at this point in time, I almost think it's better to have someone trying something in the cités than have people talk about it while the cités rot.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

Monique, I don't mean to be nasty, but moving from Quebec to Calgary is nothing like what a political or economic refugee in Paris has been through.

1) Did you move because people were committing genocide in Quebec, or was it because unemployment rates in Quebec were up around 90% or was it because disease was rife and services non-existent?

2) Did you sell everything you owned to pay a smuggler to get you into Calgary?

3) Did you have the right to work when you arrived in Calgary or did you have to go to the cops and start applying for papers?

4) During the years when it was illegal for you to work, how did you provide for yourself? Did you perhaps rely on government housing?

I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. African immigrants to France don't wake up one morning and decide that it would be cool to move to France for a bit. They're forced out of Africa and they arrive with no papers, no right to work and a whole bunch of other challenges and baggage that you did not have when you arrived in Calgary.

Thing is, this is not a Muslim thing. Christians and Jews from Eastern Europe and Africa, Buddhists from Asia all have the same problem. It has nothing to do with religion.

Troll, I think Monique loves those immigrants more than you do, if one were to judge based on the advice each of you give.

What you would do is make them continue to be dependent upon helpouts and charity and expectations of someone else to provide for them, an external reliance.

What Monique correctly advises and embodies is the successful attitude of SELF RELIANCE that has well served individuals from EVERY land, culture and religion since the beginning of time.

Of course comes a time when anyone might understandably need help from family, friends, the church or the government, but if the mental focus is on getting help from SOMEONE ELSE then you get this kind of behavior. When the focus is on using one's OWN resources you don't have time for the kind of nonsense and lawlessness displayed this past week.

Twenty years from now do you want a French population swollen with immigrants all demanding MORE, QUICKER and BETTER?

Your plan is the way to get just that.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Troll, I think Monique loves those immigrants more than you do, if one were to judge based on the advice each of you give.

What you would do is make them continue to be dependent upon helpouts and charity and expectations of someone else to provide for them, an external reliance.

Not at all. What I'm pointing out to Monique is that her situation is NOTHING like that of a Congolese refugee arriving in Paris. Moving towns in Canada during a time of peace is nothing like being forced out of the Congo by genocide or out of Zimbabwe by economic collapse.

There is no way a Congolese refugee can be self-reliant when he arrives in Paris, because he has no right to work. He can't earn. In fact, he has no right to even be in the country. So they are necessarily dependent on the government. Normally, they are put into a refugee centre and then into government housing while months and years pass before their papers are processed. What would you prefer be done? That refugees be sent back to the countries they're fleeing? In many cases, they will be killed if they're sent back. There are international laws about this sort of thing. It's inhumane to turn refugees away. And as I said, if you want to stop the conditions occurring that drive these people out of their countries, then you need to take a more active interest in Africa and international trade etc. You either deal with the problem in Africa or you deal with it in St. Denis en Seine but you cannot avoid dealing with it somewhere.

I agree with you that once they've been processed and have papers etc., they need to focus on not being reliant on the state and that's precisely what the State programmes are designed to do. It's also what they WANT! You've read descriptions of the cité. Do you think anyone WANTS to live there?

France's approach is known for being more interventionist than anywhere else in Europe. The unemployment rate in the cités is double that outside. Why is that? You're telling me that a bunch of people that come from backgrounds as disparate as Reunion Island, Kosovo or Baghdad all have laziness and lack of drive in common. Or could it be that there is indeed something more structural or psychological in the mix here?

[mojo2]

Just 20 minutes from Paris, it's war
Emma-Kate Symons meets locals at the flashpoint of Clichy-sous-Bois, Paris
November 05, 2005

"THIS is a war." It is late in the evening marking the end of Ramadan when 13-year-old Souhail, a French Muslim of Moroccan origin, makes his bellicose declaration.

On a residential street crowded with onlookers, we are trying to shield ourselves from the blaze and foul smell of another car set alight in the outer Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois.

Nearby BeurgerKing Muslim is doing a brisk trade in Halal fast food and mothers wearing headscarves are pushing young children around in strollers.

[...]

"This is a war between the police and the young people and it is the police's fault," he says. "The police and (Interior Minister Nicolas) Sarkozy, because he uses words like 'scum' to describe us.

"There are too many police here. They go after the young people all the time."

A man walks past, muttering that Mr Sarkozy is a racist. "There are problems to be solved but not by provocation, not by such inflammatory words," he says. "These are racist words.

"The police treat young people like scum. But they are in despair -- they have nothing."

[...]

Just behind us, Claude, a 63-year-old retiree who looks like he has stepped out of a stereotypical French film about Gallic bourgeois life, is furious. He turns his hose on the journalists and teenagers gathered near the blaze until we run up the street.

"Where are their parents?" Claude asks later. "There are children as young as 12 -- at midnight, they are still in the streets. Their families must take responsibility. There should be a curfew."

Unlike Souhail, Claude applauds Mr Sarkozy's tough-talking stance towards the gang violence that is engulfing Paris's poor immigrant suburbs.

"Sarkozy bravo! He says everything out loud that people are thinking. I am scared for my grandchildren."

A police officer says the young people roaming the streets in small gangs are not afraid of anything. "They have no fear and nothing to lose," he said. "They believe the state offers them nothing.

"Last night, people were firing live rounds from windows of apartments. They are like snipers ... I think they actually want to kill someone like a police officer or firefighter."

[...]

Abdel Maleck, a 37-year-old father of two girls, is a second-generation Frenchman whose parents, like so many thousands of their countrymen, emigrated from Algeria in the 1950s.

They came from the former French colony to rebuild France and stem an acute labour shortage.

Maleck says his parents were law-abiding people who worked hard and demanded their children behave well.

"Today it is so different," he said. "The young people -- they are so rude, there are drug problems and they have no respect. But they have nothing to live for -- there are no jobs. The only answer to this violence is jobs for everyone."

Maleck's anxieties about France's record high unemployment -- it is sitting at just less than 10per cent and can be as high as 50per cent among young people in the urban ghettoes -- are echoed by a group of teenaged boys milling about near the local McDonald's.

A 16-year-old asks me if I am with the police before launching into a sarcastic tirade against the Interior Minister.

"Oh, such a great man. He does so much for us young people. We love him," he says with a cynical smile.

His friend prefers to return to the unemployment problem.

"I have a friend, he has a baccalaureate (high school diploma) and he works at that McDonald's. Is that fair, is that what France should be about?"

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...55E601,00.html

BTW, check it out, they have a BeurgerKing Muslim in France. Ha! (Actually, I think that's kinda cool.)

Hmmm, I had a GED, had served in the Army three years, had some college courses under my belt and got a job at a fast food restaurant and within a year I was about to be promoted to night manager when I got a better job.

The sense of entitlement the young people have is the result of parents and government bureaucrats thinking like one of our posters in this thread.

[Troll]

For those who read French, an article about some of the people that have now been convicted.

From Le Monde:
Les histoires personnelles des individus jugés pour leur participation aux émeutes à Clichy-sous-Bois et Montfermeil (Seine-Saint-Denis) dressent le portrait d'une jeunesse violente, aux destins fracassés. Leurs parcours cumulent ruptures scolaires, problèmes familiaux, insertion professionnelle extrêmement difficile et, pour une partie d'entre eux, des condamnations par les tribunaux pour enfants. Portraits des premiers adultes jugés en comparution immédiate, lundi 31 octobre et mercredi 2 novembre, devant le tribunal correctionnel de Bobigny.

Magid Mansouri, 18 ans, a été condamné à neuf mois de prison avec sursis pour sa participation aux émeutes de Clichy, le 31 octobre. En froid avec sa famille, il n'a pas souhaité que la justice la contacte.

Originaire de Drancy, le jeune homme vit dans un hôtel dont il dit ignorer l'adresse. Après la mort de sa mère, il a été placé dans quatre familles d'accueil successives. Une instabilité due à des problèmes administratifs et à des "comportements jugés inappropriés" , selon les mots de la présidente du tribunal, Françoise Bouthier-Vergez. Il est aujourd'hui commis de cuisine "en période d'essai" et rêve d'avoir "un jour" son propre restaurant. A l'audience, il a reconnu les faits : "Je suis venu par curiosité et par excitation. Je serais prêt à m'excuser envers la police."

Radjabou Mohamed, 20 ans, n'a pas non plus souhaité contacter sa famille "de peur de leur réaction" . Le tribunal l'a condamné à six mois de prison avec sursis pour sa participation aux violences le 31 octobre. Le jeune homme habite Clichy-sous-Bois depuis 2001 où il vit avec son père, sa belle-mère et ses cinq demi-frères et soeurs.

A l'âge de 14 ans, il a quitté les Comores, où il est né, pour rejoindre un internat en Libye afin d'"apprendre l'arabe" . Pendant sa garde à vue, il a nié avoir porté une pierre dans sa main, comme l'affirment les policiers, et déclaré que les forces de l'ordre avaient menti. Le 7 novembre, il doit normalement passer un test d'admission pour suivre une formation de magasinier cariste.

Xavier Marester, 18 ans, présente un profil plus dur. Son casier judiciaire comporte déjà deux mentions pour outrage et pour recel de vols. Il a également été placé trois mois sous mandat de dépôt, entre mai et juillet, pour des violences avec arme commises sur un policier ­ affaire pour laquelle il doit être jugé le 8 décembre. Ce passé a conduit le tribunal à le condamner à six mois de prison, dont un mois ferme.

M. Marester habite chez sa mère, il est père d'un enfant d'un an et demi, élevé par sa "petite amie" . Son parcours scolaire a été chaotique : en quatrième, il a été orienté en classe-relais, un dispositif créé pour accueillir les élèves les plus difficiles. Devant le tribunal, il a nié toute violence contre les forces de l'ordre : "[Les policiers] voulaient me mettre quelque chose sur le dos. Peut-être qu'ils ont la rage qu'il y a des émeutes." La présidente l'interroge sur les motifs de sa présence à Clichy : "Liberté, égalité, fraternité. J'ai le droit de marcher où je veux."

A l'audience, la procureure de la République, Nathalie Perrin, avait requis une condamnation à quinze mois de prison, dont six mois ferme. "Je demande un sursis simple et pas de mise à l'épreuve car cela ne sert à rien de dépenser plus d'argent pour quelqu'un qui ne profite pas des chances qu'on lui donne."

Claude Furtado, 18 ans, a, lui aussi, un casier judiciaire. Il est passé à plusieurs reprises devant un tribunal pour enfants pour des vols ou du recel. Le tribunal l'a condamné à dix mois de prison, dont trois mois ferme. L'enquête de personnalité décrit son environnement comme "laxiste" et signale que sa soeur a récemment été placée dans un foyer.

Lui a arrêté l'école en troisième à l'âge de 16 ans puis est parti en internat à Pau pendant deux mois. Il est resté "inactif" pendant deux ans mais venait tout juste de trouver un emploi à mi-temps dans un McDonald's. Lors de son interpellation, les policiers ont trouvé des cartouches de gaz lacrymogène. Devant les juges, il a réfuté cette accusation : "Je les avais pas sur moi. Je sais pas d'où elles viennent."

Interpellé le 31 octobre, Mickaël Colassy, 18 ans et un mois, a le visage d'un adolescent. Originaire de Saint-Denis, il a affirmé aux policiers être venu à Clichy pour rendre visite à un ami mais n'a pu donner ni son nom ni son adresse. Le jeune homme a reconnu avoir lancé des pierres : "J'ai pas réfléchi. Je sais que c'est pas normal de jeter des pierres sur la police." Son avocat évoque un jeune "immature" pris dans un phénomène de groupe : "C'est un gamin. Lorsque je l'ai vu au dépôt, il pleurait et me demandait si sa mère allait venir" , raconte Me Adrien Namigohar.

Pour garder des souvenirs de la soirée, le jeune homme a filmé quelques-unes des scènes vécues avec son téléphone portable. Sur le premier film, d'après les procès-verbaux d'enquête, on voit des individus courir autour d'un véhicule en feu. Sur le second film, on entend trois hommes dont l'un affirme, en parlant des policiers : "On va leur niquer leurs mères à ces fils de pute."

Mickaël Colassy était récemment commis de cuisine. Il a démissionné après un mois seulement de travail. "La mentalité des gens ne me plaisait pas. Ma mentalité leur plaisait pas non plus." Lui qui rêve de devenir pompier n'a pas cherché à dissuader ses camarades de jeter des pierres sur les secours venus éteindre les incendies. Il assure avoir visé les seuls policiers.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Hmmm, I had a GED, had served in the Army three years, had some college courses under my belt and got a job at a fast food restaurant and within a year I was about to be promoted to night manager when I got a better job.

Are you seriously trying to draw a comparison between your experience and that of a refugee?

I've consistently said that the "riots" are effectively just criminals protecting their turf. But I also recognise simple facts like unemployment in the cité being 2 to 5 times higher than anywhere else, that kids go from one foster home to another when their immigrant parents die because of government incomptence. The government has an influence over unemployment and it is responsible for administration. It is also the one paying the rent. It is obvious that they can do something about this problem. As I said right at the beginning, I don't have the answer. I see the wealth gap and I don't know how you remove it. But I know it's causing trobule and I know that the government may not be responsible for it, but can do something about it. There's a reason these people are flocking to France and there's a reason they are becoming violent. If the government is incapable of addressing those problems, then we don't need a government and those kids may as well break it right now.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

Not at all. What I'm pointing out to Monique is that her situation is NOTHING like that of a Congolese refugee arriving in Paris. Moving towns in Canada during a time of peace is nothing like being forced out of the Congo by genocide or out of Zimbabwe by economic collapse.

There is no way a Congolese refugee can be self-reliant when he arrives in Paris, because he has no right to work. He can't earn. In fact, he has no right to even be in the country. So they are necessarily dependent on the government. Normally, they are put into a refugee centre and then into government housing while months and years pass before their papers are processed. What would you prefer be done? That refugees be sent back to the countries they're fleeing? In many cases, they will be killed if they're sent back. There are international laws about this sort of thing. It's inhumane to turn refugees away. And as I said, if you want to stop the conditions occurring that drive these people out of their countries, then you need to take a more active interest in Africa and international trade etc. You either deal with the problem in Africa or you deal with it in St. Denis en Seine but you cannot avoid dealing with it somewhere.

I agree with you that once they've been processed and have papers etc., they need to focus on not being reliant on the state and that's precisely what the State programmes are designed to do. It's also what they WANT! You've read descriptions of the cité. Do you think anyone WANTS to live there?

France's approach is known for being more interventionist than anywhere else in Europe. The unemployment rate in the cités is double that outside. Why is that? You're telling me that a bunch of people that come from backgrounds as disparate as Reunion Island, Kosovo or Baghdad all have laziness and lack of drive in common. Or could it be that there is indeed something more structural or psychological in the mix here?

And I will agree with you that in the case of refugees from war torn nations who have fled for their very lives, they are and should be given the consideration due their special circumstances. However, the stories I've been reading suggest your war-torn refugees are not the real problem as one looks at the numbers of them (or %) in the country and by their NOT being the PRIMARY group identified in the different write ups.

By numbers, % and by the participants mainly identified in the stories it is the teen agers of the immigrants, the NEXT generation who have their desires to have, do and be stunted by the artificial ceiling of entitlement limitation. In the best examples of capitalism a person who grows tired of poverty applies him or herself to an endeavor, a plan, a business, a career, and education and climbs out of the box they are in.

These young people want a bigger, nicer box given to them and they want you to show them the respect and deference they expect and they want it NOW!

Yeah. THAT'S the kind of attitude you want to reward.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

Are you seriously trying to draw a comparison between your experience and that of a refugee?

I've consistently said that the "riots" are effectively just criminals protecting their turf. But I also recognise simple facts like unemployment in the cité being 2 to 5 times higher than anywhere else, that kids go from one foster home to another when their immigrant parents die because of government incomptence. The government has an influence over unemployment and it is responsible for administration. It is also the one paying the rent. It is obvious that they can do something about this problem. There's a reason these people are flocking to France and there's a reason they are becoming violent. If the government is incapable of addressing those problems, then we don't need a government and those kids may as well break it right now.

Show me ANYTHING that says the problem is primarily that of the refugee.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

For those who read French, an article about some of the people that have now been convicted.

See? Just as I said, these aren't the war torn refugees you wanted us to believe they were. They are the idle youth who MAY have need for greater opportunity but who DEFINITELY need to re-examine their assumptions about life.

And II have been PONDERING what a nation can do to deny these people the usual forms of TV and radio. I think they need INSTRUCTIONAL programming to help them gear up for and better handle the challenges that face them in life. They watch the news from Iraq and stuff and think the answer to all their troubles is to become insurgent.

What they need is some Tony Robbins!

[Troll]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Show me ANYTHING that says the problem is primarily that of the refugee.

Why do you think they are coming to France, Mojo? To view her many sights?

They come here because they are political or economic refugees. People who immigrate to France because they want to live the French life, get visas and they call a moving company. They don't pitch up at the border with no money and no papers.

The kids of immigrants grow up in shoddy conditions. Shoddy conditions before the move often involving trauma and shoddy conditions in Europe. That obviously affects them. Read the bit I posted. Okay, sorry, it's in French. One of the kids' mother died when he was quite young. Traumatic enough. Worse, he has no family in France because he's the kid of immigrants. The government places him successively in 4 different foster homes in the poorest part of France. Is anyone expecting a balanced individual to result? Another one of the kids left the Comores at the age of 14 and came to France via Libya. He lives in a squat with his father, step mother, and 5 siblings. You get the picture? It's not religion that's driving these kids; it's poverty. And there's an evident connection between immigration to France and poverty. I'm not excusing the violence. Anything but. And I agree that these kids are scum, but pretending the kids of immigrants have the same opportunities in life as the children of Madame Marsaud from the 16th arrondisement is mental.

What we have to accept is that when there's a wealth gap, it makes the people on the poor side of that gap angry. It doesn't matter WHY the wealth gap exists or whose fault it is. If we want to live in a friendly society where people don't burn cars and riot, then we have to address the wealth gap. When there are enough people on the wrong side of that gap and they get angry enough, no amount of calling them scum or blaming them for their predicament is going to help.

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by Troll

Why do you think they are coming to France, Mojo? To view her many sights?

They come here because they are political or economic refugees. People who immigrate to France because they want to live the French life, get visas and they call a moving company. They don't pitch up at the border with no money and no papers.

The kids of immigrants grow up in shoddy conditions. Shoddy conditions before the move often involving trauma and shoddy conditions in Europe. That obviously affects them. Read the bit I posted. Okay, sorry, it's in French. One of the kids' mother died when he was quite young. Traumatic enough. Worse, he has no family in France because he's the kid of immigrants. The government places him successively in 4 different foster homes in the poorest part of France. Is anyone expecting a balanced individual to result? Another one of the kids left the Comores at the age of 14 and came to France via Libya. He lives in a squat with his father, step mother, and 5 siblings. You get the picture? It's not religion that's driving these kids; it's poverty. And there's an evident connection between immigration to France and poverty. I'm not excusing the violence. Anything but. And I agree that these kids are scum, but pretending the kids of immigrants have the same opportunities in life as the children of Madame Marsaud from the 16th arrondisement is mental.

What we have to accept is that when there's a wealth gap, it makes the people on the poor side of that gap angry. It doesn't matter WHY the wealth gap exists or whose fault it is. If we want to live in a friendly society where people don't burn cars and riot, then we have to address the wealth gap. When there are enough people on the wrong side of that gap and they get angry enough, no amount of calling them scum or blaming them for their predicament is going to help.

As much as the people here speak disparagingly of OUR mexican immigrants, even the most anti-Mexican person has to admit that these people come here and they come here to work and get ON the ladder and once on that ladder of success they climb it until they are firmly entrenched in our society. Sure, you have a percentage who get detoured by crime and gangs and drugs and that sort of thing, but mainly you see them as hard workers.

Rather than my asking the wrong question, why don't I ask if you have any statistical breakdowns of the demographics of the areas in flames.

By nation. By language.
How long they've been in France?
Family make up (husband AND wives? sons? daughters?).
Family size?
Occupations?
Income?
On public assistance?
How long?

[yakkiebah]

If you feel/are discriminated/harassed(etc.) by the police you fight the....

You pour gasoline over a disabled woman and burn her.

If the current government is unable to solve the problem then chances are that Le Pen will profit from this big time in the next elections.

[Doofy]

I see the violence has spread to three other cities in France. Ooops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4405620.stm

[mojo2]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah

If you feel/are discriminated/harassed(etc.) by the police you fight the....

You pour gasoline over a disabled woman and burn her.

Links?


http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...457760,00.html
Disabled Woman Set Ablaze
Updated: 12:36, Friday November 04, 2005

A handicapped woman was doused with petrol and set on fire by youths during another night of rioting in Paris.

The 56-year-old suffered third degree burns to 20% of her body in the attack.

Witnesses said a youth poured petrol over the woman and then threw a Molotov cocktail on to the bus she was travelling on in the suburb of Sevran.

Other passengers were able to flee but she was unable to escape because of her disabilities.

It was the worst incident so far in more than a week of rioting.

For the first time, there were also signs of copycat rampages elsewhere in France.

Police said several cars in the eastern city of Dijon were set alight, while similar attacks took place in the western Seine-Maritime region and the Bouches-du-Rhone in the south of the country.

More than 160 cars were reportedly torched in the Paris region, as well as 33 in the provinces.

But police said the night seemed calmer than the one before, when 315 vehicles were burnt in the Ile-de-France region around the capital.

Buses, fire engines and police were again stoned in the Paris suburbs, with five policemen reported slightly injured.

However, there were fewer direct confrontations between police and "troublemakers".

One of the worst incidents took place at Neuilly-sur-Marne where police vans came under fire from pellet pistols, but nobody was hurt.

Neuilly-sur-Marne is in the worst-hit northeastern region of Seine-Saint-Denis, where 1,300 officers were deployed, and more than 30 people were arrested there and elsewhere.

The rioting is a direct challenge to the authority of the French government and to Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin in particular.

On Thursday he told parliament authorities "will not give in" to the violence and will make restoring order their "absolute top priority".
More on This Story:

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by mojo2

Links?

Yeah sorry, i was asuming everybody knew it already as i just saw it on the news on the telly.

Alot of them were chanting 'Allah akbar' and putting cars on fire. An interesting way of letting people know you want a job.

[Monique]

Immigrants and refuges are 2 very different groups and you seem to mix them up so much.

An immigrant has to spend a lot of time to fill out paperwork (even though the people from old French colonies have automatic papers and in some cases citizenship).

It is true we have to hold the hand of a refugee because they cannot fend for themselves and will not make any effort to learn the language of the country they are going to.

In Germany they have this great program where a refuge or immigrant have to learn German and integrate themselves as soon as possible into German society.

It is ashame that France does not have such a program.

And are the Muslims from the Middle East or North Africa ready to adapt themselves to a new society or do they want to find their countries in France.

So, because they are refugees they should be excused for violent crimes and mutilating women like Muslims Somalis do.

[mojo2]

Dear readers,

As I have been saying the past few days, the individual Muslims may be fine, upstanding individuals. But, they are feared and discriminated against. And why? There is something about the religion that compels SOME of these nice individuals to want to take over an area and make it all Muslim, then to take over the local governments and that push, that march toward domination never stops. And then one day you look up and you are faced with being a minority in your own country.

And, of course there's the little thing about SOME Muslims who are called by the religion to MURDER all non-muslims and oh, how can anyone forget the hatred and vow to kill all Jews?

With that in mind, read this article and see for yourself if what I'm saying doesn't fit.

France's disaffected Muslim businessmen
France has been stunned by rioting in low-income suburbs dominated by immigrants. But ghetto youths are not the only French people of foreign origin to feel sidelined.
As part of a series on French Muslims, Henri Astier spoke to two businessmen about their perception of prejudice against them.

Yazid Sabeg is a rarity among France's business elite. He is North-African. And those two facts, he believes, are not unconnected.
"A lot of people don't like my face," says the 55-year-old industrialist.

Whether or not corporate France is "viscerally racist", as Mr Sabeg contends, it certainly lacks diversity.

The chief executive of CS, a big communications group, he is the only person of North African origin to head a leading French company.

His father, an Algerian worker, came to France in 1952. Young Yazid studied hard and worked as a civil servant before setting up his own finance company.

In the early 1990s Mr Sabeg took over CS, a contractor in the sensitive field of secure communications for defence and aerospace. The takeover met with fierce resistance. "The establishment, notably the military establishment, did not like it," he recalls.

In 1991 intelligence services wrote a scathing report about Mr Sabeg, based on false rumours that he was financing Algerian militants.

Investigative journalist Christophe Deloire - who uncovered the report - says the rumours about Mr Sabeg were malicious.

"It looks as if somebody tried to sink him," Mr Deloire said.

Damaged relationship

Mr Sabeg says he has no idea who started the whispering campaign. But he is convinced people with intelligence contacts are still trying to undermine him

"Some people spend their whole lives spinning tales, because in certain circles the Algerian war continues," he says.

FRENCH ISLAM
Five million Muslims (estimate)
35% Algerian origin (estimate)
25% Moroccan origin (estimate)
10% Tunisian origin (estimate)
Concentrated in poor suburbs of Paris, Lille, Lyon, Marseille and other cities

"In their minds you can't be both Arab and French."
Mr Sabeg says the reputation of his firm is his best protection. CS is a listed company with 4,000 employees in France and abroad and a 400m-euro turnover.

"I am established. To sink me they would have to find more than rumours, and that's all they've got."

Still, the company has suffered. It took Mr Sabeg three years to get the security clearance needed to work on military projects.

He says his relationship with the defence ministry never completely recovered.

His claim that his Algerian roots have been used against him is hard to verify.

But what is certain is that you see few black and brown faces in France's boardrooms. The only Arab entrepreneurs you are likely to meet run corner shops.

Going halal

For an illustration of the problems faced by North African-born businessmen at the other end of the economic ladder, a good place to start is Evry, south of Paris.

The town has an Avenue des Champs-Elysees, but it is a far cry from its grand Parisian namesake.

Much of Evry consists of low-income housing estates that white people fled long ago.
In 2002 Abdel and Mohamed Djaiziri bought a small supermarket chain in one of bleakest of these estates, Les Pyramides - named after one of Paris' glitziest areas.

The Tunisian brothers then did a fateful thing. They turned the supermarket, affiliated to the Franprix chain, into a halal shop.

It was purely a business a decision, they insist: In a predominantly Muslim area, there was no point stocking pork or alcohol that would stay on the shelf.

"When a shopkeeper has a range of 15,000 products available to him, he will choose those that will sell," Abdel Djaiziri said in a recent interview.

But the mayor felt the move contributed to creating a ghetto by making life difficult for non-Muslims, and tried to get the store closed on health grounds.

The Djaiziri brothers' problems got even worse in early 2003, when Franprix stopped supplying them.

"There was nothing to buy, so we lost all our customers," Mr Djaiziri says.

It took the brothers three months to find other suppliers - by which time they had got heavily into debt to pay the rent and salaries.

Ongoing fight

Mr Djaiziri says he does not know why Franprix withdrew the franchise. Perhaps the chain wanted to steer clear of the conflict with the mayor, he speculates.

Franprix, when contacted, declined to comment.

I want them to go. I want to rehabilitate the square and bring in quality shops

Two years on, the business is still standing - although Mr Djaiziri says the debt remains a big burden. But relations with the mayor, he says, have improved. Health inspectors still come round regularly, but the visits are courteous.

"I consider the matter closed," Mr Djaiziri says.

The problem is that Mayor Manuel Valls does not.

"The store is filthy," he says. "I want them to go. I want to rehabilitate the square and bring in quality shops."

It is impossible to say for sure the brothers suffered on account of their origin.

They had no previous experience in retailing - and Mayor Valls, a socialist with a record of reaching out to minorities, is no xenophobe.

But their experience - as well as Mr Sabeg's and the general scarcity of immigrant entrepreneurs in France - helps explain why some Muslim businessmen feel as marginalised as ghetto youths.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/h...pe/4405790.stm

Published: 2005/11/04 13:59:44 GMT

© BBC MMV

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah

Yeah sorry, i was asuming everybody knew it already as i just saw it on the news on the telly.

Alot of them were chanting 'Allah akbar'

That's French for "this is not a religious thing".

[mojo2]

French Muslims face job discrimination
Days of rioting in the bleaker suburbs of Paris have highlighted discontent among many French youths of North African origin.
As part of a series on French Muslims, the BBC News website's Henri Astier looks at the issue of discrimination, a leading source of frustration in France's unemployment-riddled ghettos.

Sadek recently quit his job delivering groceries near Saint-Denis, just north of Paris. He was tired of climbing stairs with heavy bags.

Unemployment is high in estates which are home to many Muslims
Sadek, 31, has a secondary school education and aspires to something better. But he knows his options are limited: "With a name like mine, I can't have a sales job."

Telemarketing could be a possibility - his Arab roots safely hidden from view. Of course, he would have to work under an assumed name.

And what metaphor did I use the other day when talking about how Muslims were being considered by non Muslims? Coincidence? Or do we have a reporter who is also a MacNN reader?

I keed, I keed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm

[moki]

Well, it's certainly been on the news... but it's mostly just a "this is happening" kind of story... whereas with the riots in LA, it was seized upon by the media and politicians in Europe to bash the USA, and enjoy a little smugness.

It's interesting to see the difference.

[moki]

from: http://www.nysun.com/article/22526

.....

If President Chirac thought he was going to gain peace with the Muslim community in France by taking an appeasement line in the Iraq war, it certainly looks like he miscalculated. Today the streets of the French capital are looking more like Ramallah and less like the advanced, sophisticated, gay Paree image Monsieur Chirac likes to portray to the world, and the story, which is just starting to grip the world's attention, is full of ironies. One is tempted to suggest that Prime Minister Sharon send a note cautioning Monsieur Chirac about cycles of violence.

Back in the 1990s, the French sneered at America for the Los Angeles riots. As the Chicago Sun-Times reported in 1992: "the consensus of French pundits is that something on the scale of the Los Angeles riots could not happen here, mainly because France is a more humane, less racist place with a much stronger commitment to social welfare programs." President Mitterrand, the Washington Post reported in 1992, blamed the riots on the "conservative society" that Presidents Reagan and Bush had created and said France is different because it "is the country where the level of social protection is the highest in the world."

How the times have changed.

[Sky Captain]

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by moki

Well, it's certainly been on the news... but it's mostly just a "this is happening" kind of story... whereas with the riots in LA, it was seized upon by the media and politicians in Europe to bash the USA, and enjoy a little smugness.

It's interesting to see the difference.

Obviously you are right.

America is such a penultimate victim.

[IceBreaker]

has the civil war spread to the center of Paris yet?

[Spliffdaddy]

Oh alright.

It's time to send US troops to occupy France *again*.

[IceBreaker]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Oh alright.

It's time to send US troops to occupy France *again*.

We've had to do it before, at this rate we'll have to save the French again.

That's ok though... France was there for us in 1776...we'll gladly repay the favor...again..and again and again.