[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Troll

The government says that the people in the banlieue have legitimate gripes but that violence is not the answer. I don't see that the fatwa is any more full of loopholes than the government's line is. The point is that if you have a gripe, there are right and wrong ways of addressing that gripe. How you strike "unblindly" I don't know. And bear in mind that you are getting involved in an extremely technical argument about the subtleties of the language, when what you are working with is a TRANSLATION of the original French fatwa.

The fact that those involved aren't obeying the fatwa just reinforces the argument that this is not a religious thing and is not a conspiracy. These are not faithful Muslim warriors under the central command of the Imams. They are not committing the violence for their religion. These are just plain old disaffected youths who happen to be Muslim and Christian and whatever other religion. They don't listen to the priests any more than they listen to their parents or the cops or the government.

Anything coming from any government that does *not* contain any loopholes is quite the rarity. Susch is the way of politcs and law. Religion is another matter entirely, and one of the demands people have towards religion is that it contains no ambiguity. I don't think holding religion and politics to the same standard is appropriate. I don't know if you are religious, but myself I see it that way.

Of course translations always add some ambiguity, I should know. I speak seven languages and appreciate the art of translation and acknowledge its limitations. That does not mean that the translation is wrong. In fact if it is properly made, then it is made so that we understand the translated text with our cultural and linguistical background. Of course it could also be abad translation, but since we do not know it is and this seems to be an accepted translation then I see no reason to dismiss it as such.

I imagine it was written in French so you could perhaps offer your translation of it?

The rest I agree with more or less. Although every single newssource I have seen mentions that Muslims are a very apparent part of these riots. Whether this is a coincidence or not, I do not know. Maybe it is all a conspiracy?

cheers

W-Y

[moki]

At least some people in France get it... editorial in Le Figaro:

"France is paying for its arrogance. In the eyes of the world, our famous model of social integration is going down the drain... Vengeance is a dish best served cold. America will never forget the criticisms of its society during the Iraq war and after the hurricane in Louisiana.

"But their criticism is not entirely unjustified. It underlines 40 years of political failure... Too often, ideology has trumped pragmatism in dealing with the problems of the suburbs. Plans to rebuild and renovate have not been followed up with money. In particular, it is misguided to think that tweaking around the edges would give pride and hope to the descendants of French immigrants, who have too often been soothed by speeches presenting them as victims rather than responsible citizens..."

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

If I were a Muslim in Europe, I would be getting pretty nervous.

Europeans don't even get along with one another, much less do they get along with poor, stigmatised immigrants from Africa. I've been harassed in southern Europe several times for being too "anglo", so I can't imagine what it is like for these North Africans.

The seeds are being sown for a long term religious conflict, like that which has gone on in Israel, N. Ireland, India, and Pakistan. Allowing 5m Muslims to move into France is the stupidest idea since the creation of Israel after WWII, or when King James thought it would work out if he sent thousands of English protestants to live in Northern Ireland. Sadly there is no solution, you can't deport everyone because the vast majority of the immigrants are guilty of nothing, and you can't try to integrate them because that never works. There is no solution.

Absolutely

Mass immigration of people who do not share the local culture has been proven again and again through the centuries to be a bad bad move. Why this is a lesson that has not been learned is beyond my comprehension. All societies need gradual exposure if integration is to take place.

cheers

W-Y

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by moki

At least some people in France get it... editorial in Le Figaro:

"France is paying for its arrogance. In the eyes of the world, our famous model of social integration is going down the drain... Vengeance is a dish best served cold. America will never forget the criticisms of its society during the Iraq war and after the hurricane in Louisiana.

"But their criticism is not entirely unjustified. It underlines 40 years of political failure... Too often, ideology has trumped pragmatism in dealing with the problems of the suburbs. Plans to rebuild and renovate have not been followed up with money. In particular, it is misguided to think that tweaking around the edges would give pride and hope to the descendants of French immigrants, who have too often been soothed by speeches presenting them as victims rather than responsible citizens..."

After skimming through the article (and French is not one of the languages I know, though I can read it more or less) I fail to see the point you are making. What is it? What has the US have to do with anything??

PS. Good to see you have stopped violating rule 8 of these forums

cheers

W-Y

[yakkiebah]

What's Wrong with Europe?

Between "us" and "them"

The strict separation of church and state, a sacrosanct pillar of French government, has become an illusion. Jihad may not be what's inspiring the rioters, but Islam is undeniably an inseparable component of their self-identity. Islam strengthens their sense of solidarity, gives them the appearance of legitimacy and draws an unmistakable line between them and the others, the "French."

Suddenly "big brothers" -- devout bearded men from the mosques who wear long traditional robes -- are positioning themselves between the authorities and the rioters in Clichy-sous-Bois, calling for order in the name of Allah. As thousands of voices shout "Allahu Akbar" from the windows of high-rise apartment buildings, shivers run down the spines of television viewers in their seemingly safe living rooms.

As welcome as these self-appointed keepers of the peace may be, worried authorities think they have detected something akin to a Muslim law enforcement group -- perhaps even the beginnings of an Islamic militia. "The logic behind this unrest," says one police officer, "is secession." If he's right, it would be a nightmare scenario of entire neighborhoods and communities separating themselves from the state and essentially declaring their independence, creating zones with their own laws, areas to which the authorities no longer have access unless they wish to be perceived as hostile intruders.

Nope, has nothing to do with Islam at all.
But then again, Der Spiegel is German, you know; nazi's and such...[/sarcasm]

I've just seen the speech by Dominique de Villepin aswell, who waited a week before he spoke, he had to check the polls first ofcourse. Lots of words but nothing concrete. Very weak. Sarkozy is currently the only hope, but how much can he do?

Sarkozy is ofcourse the reason for all the violence, atleast according to those who were interviewed, 2 masked dude's, by a Dutch journalist. If Sarkozy doesn't resign they will organize themself better, destroy the economy and bring weapons to the table and people will get killed. Quick, give them a job! Brain surgeons: now hiring!

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

No not really. Perhaps you were trying to funny?

cheers

W-Y

Really


The end of the European Union summit in Barcelona was marked by scattered riots with police clashing with protesters in several parts of the city this weekend. But the rioting was not of the scale seen during the previous EU summit in Genoa last year. Most demonstrators preferring to voice their grievances in a peaceful manner. Meanwhile, European leaders only made modest progress in their drive to turn Europe into the world's strongest economy by 2010.

England


WTO some place


The LA Riots, the 2 Vancouver Riots, the IRA bombings in England, come on accept all groups act bad, so no I am not joking.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by some Nazi German newspaper or other

As welcome as these self-appointed keepers of the peace may be, worried authorities think they have detected something akin to a Muslim law enforcement group -- perhaps even the beginnings of an Islamic militia. "The logic behind this unrest," says one police officer, "is secession." If he's right, it would be a nightmare scenario of entire neighborhoods and communities separating themselves from the state and essentially declaring their independence, creating zones with their own laws, areas to which the authorities no longer have access unless they wish to be perceived as hostile intruders.

Hmmm... ...I love the smell of being correct in the morning.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Athens

Really


The end of the European Union summit in Barcelona was marked by scattered riots with police clashing with protesters in several parts of the city this weekend. But the rioting was not of the scale seen during the previous EU summit in Genoa last year. Most demonstrators preferring to voice their grievances in a peaceful manner. Meanwhile, European leaders only made modest progress in their drive to turn Europe into the world's strongest economy by 2010.

England


WTO some place


The LA Riots, the 2 Vancouver Riots, the IRA bombings in England, come on accept all groups act bad, so no I am not joking.

I can't be bothered to indulge you by guessing what you mean because it is a pointless excercise. However if you want to make a point please do. Discussion is not about letting the one you're discussing with guess what you mean.

I could just as well have a discussion with myself. Would be about as productive.

cheers

W-Y

[Weyland-Yutani]

"...Dominique de Villepin, anunciara en televisión que a partir de hoy el Consejo de Ministros aprobará el toque de queda para acabar con el brote de violencia..."

Ladies and gentlemen, we have curfew.

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2005/1...131413465.html

cheers

W-Y

[Spliffdaddy]

They'll just run out of space in the jails.

Rioters have already been breaking the laws - so let's impose another law.

That'll stop 'em!

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I can't be bothered to indulge you by guessing what you mean because it is a pointless excercise. However if you want to make a point please do. Discussion is not about letting the one you're discussing with guess what you mean.

I could just as well have a discussion with myself. Would be about as productive.

cheers

W-Y

Point Christians burn cars, break windows, burn buildings too, so its a little unfair to make this a Muslim reason. When the LA Riots broke out, was it Christians trying to take over the world or was it poor black Americans who are Christian which religion has nothing to do with it lashing back at there treatment and conditions. These people in France are lashing out over life conditions and it has nothing to do with the fact they are Muslim, has more to do with being poor and disadvantage.

[moodymonster]

any establishment of a 5th column needs to be smashed

[Artful Dodger]

when will france surrender?

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah

What's Wrong with Europe?



Nope, has nothing to do with Islam at all.
But then again, Der Spiegel is German, you know; nazi's and such...[/sarcasm]

I've just seen the speech by Dominique de Villepin aswell, who waited a week before he spoke, he had to check the polls first ofcourse. Lots of words but nothing concrete. Very weak. Sarkozy is currently the only hope, but how much can he do?

Sarkozy is ofcourse the reason for all the violence, atleast according to those who were interviewed, 2 masked dude's, by a Dutch journalist. If Sarkozy doesn't resign they will organize themself better, destroy the economy and bring weapons to the table and people will get killed. Quick, give them a job! Brain surgeons: now hiring!

That article got it wrong completely, and surprisingly so. Why? Because the rioters in France lived already in de-facto independent societies and territories where mostly no police-force was active. The police-force only gets active when deaths have occured or when immigrants leave their ghettos, then they get harrassed and controlled multiple times a day, taken into custody, beaten up...


and that's why they rioted: Because they want to be a part of french society, but are excluded from it through political and economic forces they can't control nor understand properly. Those few that understand these forces and that have worked to break the circle of low education and low economic success by learning and achieving a good education and good qualifications saw themselves confronted by something they can't change regardless of their sacrifices or good will and that is the endemic racism that is weaving through most of french society: Regardless of the qualifications or educational level, someone with a black or brown skin and/or the wrong adress has automatically much less opportunities to gain a position in a french firm, than a white french guy/gal. A french professor made once an experiment and prepared fake papers and resumees and sent them as an application with the same fake residence towards french firms, all of them having the same qualifications and grades, with the only difference being the skin-colour and names, and yet while over 80% of the white "skinners" were invited for a job-interview, less than 15% of the colured "skinners" were, too.

That situation reminds me of the situation of the blacks in the US during the fifties and sixties of last century. While on paper and in law, there is no segregation and discrimination, in the minds of the french people there clearly is and not only on the firm-owner-ones, but in every sector of the society.

I think what the blacks and browns of France need is something like the affirmative-action in the US, by which a certain percentage of blacks and browns have to be hired in firms on every level, not just on the physical-working-level, and allowed into schools and universities, the percentage has to be equivalent to the percentage of the population of said colours...

But what the rioters really need is one who is a bit more like Martin Luther King, than someone who is like Malcolm X.

Taliesin

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Athens

Point Christians burn cars, break windows, burn buildings too, so its a little unfair to make this a Muslim reason. When the LA Riots broke out, was it Christians trying to take over the world or was it poor black Americans who are Christian which religion has nothing to do with it lashing back at there treatment and conditions. These people in France are lashing out over life conditions and it has nothing to do with the fact they are Muslim, has more to do with being poor and disadvantage.

I'd say it is a stretch to pin religion on the LA riots, all these years after the fact the reasons for it are quite obvious. They are as you point out as well "poor black Americans ... lashing back at there treatment and conditions." That sums up the LA riots pretty much.

Protests against the EU, WTO etc are made by no specific religios group. Also quite a stretch to call them Christian IMO.

You argument of Christians *also* rioting is correct and not correct. The WTO riots happened in a Christian country for instance but the rioters were of all possible religions, nations (people travelled a long distance to take part in the protests).. However there were some Christians among them for sure. The riots in France are predomantly fueled by young Muslims and they are not protesting, just rioting. Perhaps that is their way of protesting but it is certainly not the traditional Wester way of doing it.

The point is that in a predominantly Christian country the Muslim minority is rioting and in countries where the roles are reversed the Christian minority is not rioting. Think about it.

cheers

W-Y

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

The riots in France are predomantly fueled by young Muslims and they are not protesting, just rioting. Perhaps that is their way of protesting but it is certainly not the traditional Wester way of doing it.


W-Y

They are predominantly from poor areas where there are a lot of Muslims from northern Africa descendance but also a lots of black Africans from the former sub tropical african French colonies which, historically, are NOT muslim. Most of the rioters are young kids who are 'having fun' and do not realize what they are doing. There might be some instigators in the back scene, with political motives, but the bulk of the rioters is not politically or religiously motivated IMHO.
They are the products of family in which parents are having problems finding jobs and make ends meet every month.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by villalobos

They are predominantly from poor areas where there are a lot of Muslims from northern Africa descendance but also a lots of black Africans from the former sub tropical african French colonies which, historically, are NOT muslim. Most of the rioters are young kids who are 'having fun' and do not realize what they are doing. There might be some instigators in the back scene, with political motives, but the bulk of the rioters is not politically or religiously motivated IMHO.
They are the products of family in which parents are having problems finding jobs and make ends meet every month.

Amazing how people ca have difficulties understand simple things like that.

[saab95]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

They'll just run out of space in the jails.

Rioters have already been breaking the laws - so let's impose another law.

That'll stop 'em!

Why not have France deport the entire mess of them all?

If they cannot live in France, they should go back to from where they came.

[saab95]

Originally Posted by Artful Dodger

when will france surrender?

Here you go! The French have surrendered!

Hopefully, the French will remember that Chirac has been a complete jackass in his handling of this fiasco, and vote him the heck out of office.

[Sky Captain]

And on the twelveth night of riots the Frenchies gave to meeee...

12 Wogs a grinning
11 Officials spinning
10 suburbs churning
9 Buses burning
8 Courts ajourning
7 Thugs athrowing
6 Citroens glowing
LIVE COVERAGE ON TV
4 Curfews called
3 Mobilizations
2 Cities gone, and
1 State of Emergency

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

And on the twelveth night of riots the Frenchies gave to meeee...

12 Wogs a grinning
11 Officials spinning
10 suburbs churning
9 Buses burning
8 Courts ajourning
7 Thugs athrowing
6 Citroens glowing
LIVE COVERAGE ON TV
4 Curfews called
3 Mobilizations
2 Cities gone, and
1 State of Emergency

Haha

Good to see a sense of humor in all this chaos

cheers

W-Y

[Sky Captain]

It seems like the whole world is in cahos at the moment.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

It seems like the whole world is in cahos at the moment.

As it should be. Chaos makes things interesting.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by saab95

Why not have France deport the entire mess of them all?

If they cannot live in France, they should go back to from where they came.

Because most of them were born in France and therefore are French. Were would you deport French citizens?

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Amazing how people ca have difficulties understand simple things like that.

To the defense of a lots of people here, the media reports are not helping them.... It is amusing though how the same people who are so quick to discredit the media reports on some subjects will accept whatever is said on said media on other subjects. It is almost like they hear only what they want to..... Etonnant n'est-ce pas?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by villalobos

Because most of them were born in France and therefore are French. Where would you deport French citizens?

Texas

cheers

W-Y

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by villalobos

To the defense of a lots of people here, the media reports are not helping them.... It is amusing though how the same people who are so quick to discredit the media reports on some subjects will accept whatever is said on said media on other subjects. It is almost like they hear only what they want to..... Etonnant n'est-ce pas?

Farpaitement!

[Spliffdaddy]

So, please point out where the media has been wrong about the French riots?

Because, so far, they seem to be in 100% agreement with each other.

If you're talking about opinions written by people and printed in the media - then, naturally, they are opinions and not facts.

The facts published by the media seem to be correct.

let's get on with day 13, shall we?

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

So, please point out where the media has been wrong about the French riots?

Because, so far, they seem to be in 100% agreement with each other.

If you're talking about opinions written by people and printed in the media - then, naturally, they are opinions and not facts.

The facts published by the media seem to be correct.

let's get on with day 13, shall we?

I think the media in the US overplay the religious card. Again, most of the rioters are kids without any real political or religious agenda : 'just a game'. That is not the feeling I got while reading the US media (i don't watch TV).

[TheMosco]

Anyone catch the article in yesterday's wall street journal?

CLICHY-SOUS-BOIS, France -- Every night, Magid and fellow members of the Tabligh sect of Islam fan out across the grim projects of this poor, immigrant suburb of Paris and try to talk some sense into the angry young men who have been setting it ablaze.

"We tell them: 'if you're violent, you're no longer a Muslim. Islam is moving away from you,' " says Magid, who sports a skullcap and a long, curly red beard. The 31-year-old declines to give his last name for fear of drawing government scrutiny. "When they hear that, they usually feel alone and they calm down."

As France enters its 12th night of rioting, Islamic organizations like the Tabligh, which originated in the 1920s in India, stand to benefit from the unrest and emerge strengthened from it. The Tabligh advocates a strict adherence to Islam but also a disengagement from society.

While gangs of disaffected youths, mostly from Muslim families, continue to rampage, burning thousands of cars and ransacking entire neighborhoods, some of these organizations are positioning themselves as mediators who can bring back the order the government has been unable to restore.

These groups don't preach violence, but they do advocate something that is troubling Europe's secular democracies: that Muslims should identify themselves with their religion rather than as citizens. Effectively, they are promoting a separate society within society and that brand of Islamist philosophy is seeping into many parts of Western Europe. Countries from France and Germany to the United Kingdom and the Netherlands haven't succeeded in integrating their Muslim minorities -- and Islamic organizations have carefully positioned themselves to fill the breach.

....

There isn't anything inherently Muslim about the violence: Islamic groups appear to have played no part in stirring up the trouble, and few rioters seem to be using Islam to justify their attacks. On the contrary, many Islamic groups say they are trying to calm things down. But the bleak projects that ring Paris and France's other big cities have long been fertile recruiting grounds for Islamic groups that preach a fundamentalist form of the religion that is often hard to square with Europe's pluralistic societies.

If anyone wants the full article, pm me your email address and I can send it too you. I have a online subscription to WSJ.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by villalobos

I think the media in the US overplay the religious card. Again, most of the rioters are kids without any real political or religious agenda : 'just a game'. That is not the feeling I got while reading the US media (i don't watch TV).

The US media doesn't have to play the politics game which the French (and other Euro countries) have to play on their own turf. I can tell you for a fact that there was stuff reported about the UK riots which the UK media wasn't allowed to report. Perhaps it's the same with the Frenchies - they (the media *and* the government) don't want Le Pen gaining ground now, do they?

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally Posted by villalobos

Were would you deport French citizens?

Quebec

[Spliffdaddy]

ouch

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by Doofy

The US media doesn't have to play the politics game which the French (and other Euro countries) have to play on their own turf. I can tell you for a fact that there was stuff reported about the UK riots which the UK media wasn't allowed to report. Perhaps it's the same with the Frenchies - they (the media *and* the government) don't want Le Pen gaining ground now, do they?

If that was the case then Sarkozy would not have himself put forward the idea that there might some coordination and backsstage organization within the rioters early during the events. The theory was pretty much debunked soon after. I know that the conspiracy theory is always a possibility but I don't see it here really. But I can be wrong.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Doofy

The US media doesn't have to play the politics game which the French (and other Euro countries) have to play on their own turf. I can tell you for a fact that there was stuff reported about the UK riots which the UK media wasn't allowed to report. Perhaps it's the same with the Frenchies - they (the media *and* the government) don't want Le Pen gaining ground now, do they?

Actually every national media works that way, it's not direct state-censoring but more like voluntary self-censoring, sure western media is very independent and able to criticize the state and politicians... but when the stakes are high enough and a special coverage or opinion could cause panic or threaten the nation/state as a whole self-censoring comes in, which is only natural and human and often the right thing to do.

That's the natural and often good side of censoring, but there is another form of censoring which is neither caused by good-will nor by orders of the state but by interests of big business, and that one is bad and even dangerous and much more difficult to tackle as it permeates through all media that is financed through commercials, sponsoring or even directly owned by big business.

But eventhough the grip of big businesses on media is not to be denied, things change nonetheless and are much better than in the case of state-censoring, because different than the state, big businesses have not the option to use direct and legitimate force, like emprisonment, torture or executions to enforce the strict adherance to the censorship, and media can sometimes use the dynamics of the economy to play the big businesses against each other and sometimes achieve a rare neutrality, and there's always the possibility for small newstarters to break a big story that goes against the established opinion...

Taliesin

[Spliffdaddy]

So what everyone is saying is that the news media in USA has accurately described the French riots.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I'd say it is a stretch to pin religion on the LA riots, all these years after the fact the reasons for it are quite obvious.

You said it best, so why do we pin religion on a group of poor just because they are mostly muslim.

[Monique]

To say they do not know what they are doing is a very poor excuse; it is like saying I exterminated Jews because I was following orders. At one point in your life you have to use your brains.

They are not excluded; they do not want to integrate to a society which is not the same than the one they left behind.

Get over it the Western world will not become a Muslim country where women will not be respected and taken advantage of or where we will start seeing beheadings.

People always say that there is censoring when it comes to the country where there is trouble, for example the French said that the BBC was not telling the truth when it came to the Irak war, and now the BBC is saying that the French press is not telling the truth when it comes to the rioting. This is so funny.

You cannot vote a French President out of office.

By the way Farpaitement is not a word you mean Parfaitement.

[saab95]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain

And on the twelveth night of riots the Frenchies gave to meeee...

12 Wogs a grinning
11 Officials spinning
10 suburbs churning
9 Buses burning
8 Courts ajourning
7 Thugs athrowing
6 Citroens glowing
LIVE COVERAGE ON TV
4 Curfews called
3 Mobilizations
2 Cities gone, and
1 State of Emergency

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Monique

To say they do not know what they are doing is a very poor excuse; it is like saying I exterminated Jews because I was following orders. At one point in your life you have to use your brains.

They are not excluded; they do not want to integrate to a society which is not the same than the one they left behind.

Oh, they know quite well what they do, burning up cars and schools from their own neighbourhoods, ie. property from their own people and schools they visited themselves and their brothers and sisters are still visiting. The reasoning is also pretty clear: The suburb that manages to stay in the news the longest will be saved/helped/restructured.

The reasons for their feeling that they have nothing to lose but everything to gain from rioting are the vicious cycles of low income leading to low influence in politics leading to low investments in infrastructure, education... leading again to even lower income... and coupled with endemic racism among the "white" France directed against "brown and black" France integration is hardly possible.

France must wake up and accept all french people as french people and introduce quotas for black and brown french to be hired in firms and allowed into schools and universities, quotas which should resemble the relation between the populations. The slums and ghettos have to be dissolved and the inhabitants spread among the white France, with the help and instrument of subventions so that they can afford the higher mortgages. The media has to broadly tackle the topic of endemic racism and discredit it...

Liberte, egalite, fraternite should be also applied to the new French that are born in France and that live there in the third generation, that speak the language and wish to be full and equal citizens.

Originally Posted by Monique

Get over it the Western world will not become a Muslim country where women will not be respected and taken advantage of or where we will start seeing beheadings.

Can you even take yourself seriously or are you just here for a bit of easy fun?
The riots have no religious background nor motive, and by the way the west is already a place where women are not respected (degraded to sexualised objects), taken advantage of (have to work and do the housework, in the one space with lesser pay as males, and in the latter with no morale or otherwise support), and the beheadings are also quite common (abortions of preborn babies, executions of criminals).

Taliesin

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Monique

People always say that there is censoring when it comes to the country where there is trouble, for example the French said that the BBC was not telling the truth when it came to the Irak war, and now the BBC is saying that the French press is not telling the truth when it comes to the rioting. This is so funny.

They're called "D orders" here. Blair likes to use them a lot.

For example... ...two senior government people (one a cabinet member) were caught in one of the recent online kiddie porn crackdowns. Blair put a D order out to prevent their identities being revealed by the media. We still don't know who they are.

In another story, the TV channel "Channel 4" (very friendly towards ethnic minorities - to the extent that it's been called "the mouthpiece of islam") put together a program which investigated the recent "muslim youths gang raping white girls" craze. We haven't seen that program yet. Why? D order.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that governments (especially control-freak governments like Blair's) don't do this kind of thing.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

France must wake up and accept all french people as french people and introduce quotas for black and brown french to be hired in firms and allowed into schools and universities, quotas which should resemble the relation between the populations.

Liberte, egalite, fraternite should be also applied to the new French that are born in France and that live there in the third generation, that speak the language and wish to be full and equal citizens.

Those two paragraphs don't fit. You can't have "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" if you have a quota system based on ethnic status.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Those two paragraphs don't fit. You can't have "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" if you have a quota system based on ethnic status.

I know, but the one can help in a transitional process to reach the other.

Taliesin

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Monique

By the way Farpaitement is not a work (sic) you mean Parfaitement.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

"G" for joke, Monique!

[IceBreaker]

Political winds are changing in France -






Far-Right Leader: Riots Only the Start
Nov 09 2:08 PM US/Eastern
Email this story


By JOHN LEICESTER
Associated Press Writer


PARIS


French far-right leader Jean-Marie Le Pen claimed Wednesday his National Front party has been "submerged" with prospective members and supportive e-mail since rioting erupted in heavily immigrant communities near Paris.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Le Pen described the recent violence as "just the start" of conflicts caused by "massive immigration from countries of the Third World that is threatening not just France but the whole continent."

Le Pen said people with immigrant backgrounds who commit crimes should be stripped of their French nationality and sent "back to their country of origin."

Reminded that the vast majority of youths taking part in the arson and rioting are French, born in France to immigrant parents, he said: "What does that mean? Are they French because they have a French identity card?"

French nationality should be given only to those who ask for it and "who are worthy of it," he said. "Those who got nationality automatically, who don't consider themselves French and who even say publicly that they consider France their enemy should not be treated as French."

Le Pen said he is convinced that what he described as a surge in support for his "zero immigration" platform would translate into votes at the ballot box for his National Front party.

French voters "are saying to themselves 'Le Pen was right. We were told that Le Pen is an extremist because he said that immigration problems would lead to disorder. The facts have shown that he was right,'" he said.

"We are receiving thousands of new members, tens of thousands of e- mails. All of our offices are submerged, we don't know how to respond because we don't have the staff to reply to the wave of people who, 95 percent of them, salute and approve our positions," he added.

Le Pen gave no specifics on the number of new members, but the party's top official for new memberships said the figure was closer to 1,000 and that they were requests to join.

Le Pen stunned many in France and shocked Europe by making it through to the second round of the last presidential elections in 2002. But he was soundly defeated in a runoff against President Jacques Chirac.

Le Pen said he is "more than ever" determined to run again in 2007.

"If there were presidential elections now, my chances would be increased tenfold," he said

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/09/D8DP4IE02.html

[Doofy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4422422.stm

Interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy has ordered the expulsion of all foreigners convicted of taking part in the riots that have swept France for 13 nights.

He told parliament 120 foreigners had been found guilty of involvement and would be deported without delay.

[IceBreaker]

that will quickly end the riots.....

a free lunch without work in a miserable ghetto in a dingy suburb of Paris is paradise compared to the alternative of where most of the immigrants came from.

Bets on this will end the riots within 48 hours?

[Spliffdaddy]

No, it won't end that quickly.

Only 1 in 8 rioters are foreigners.

[IceBreaker]

well they should deport them as well. they should deport any rioters automatically..that would solve the entire problem.

[Spliffdaddy]

Send 'em all to Canada!