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Ken_F2 · Jul 24, 2002, 06:08 AM

Mike Breeden over at xlr8yourmac.com is under NDA with Apple, and thus can't comment or publish specific performance numbers for graphics cards under OSX and Quartz Extreme.

That said, he mentioned to me that there were definite / significant differences in the performance of various graphics cards with Quartz Extreme. He said that if I have a Geforce2 Mx now for Quartz Extreme, that I will want to upgrade.

Upgrade to what? That's not yet clear...but when OSX ships, he will have an article that addresses the performance of various 2D/3D AGP cards in Quartz Extreme.

solitere · Jul 24, 2002, 06:18 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ken_F2:

Upgrade to what? That's not yet clear...but when OSX ships, he will have an article that addresses the performance of various 2D/3D AGP cards in Quartz Extreme.<hr /></blockquote>I think a Radeon 8500 or 9000 will be good enough!

[ 07-24-2002, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: solitere ]

D'Espice · Jul 24, 2002, 06:34 AM

Or GeForce3 or GeForce4 Ti4600 or GeForce4 MX

MM-o4 · Jul 24, 2002, 06:56 AM

Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete. GRRRRRR. Not good enough Apple!

MM-o4

Dan Szwarc · Jul 24, 2002, 07:08 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete.<hr /></blockquote>Dude, your hardware was obsolete when you bought it!

However, he does not say the GF2mx is not supported, but that you will get better performance out of a better card.

If that isn't the most obvious statement of the year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

I think we have to wait until Jaguar ships to make any decisions. Apple video hardware is about one year behind the curve (PC-wise). Obviously, faster cards will provide more performance, but Jaguar is being touted as faster overall even BEFORE Quartz Extreme is taken into account. Is this really true?

What's next? Statements like "If you have less than a 1GHz machine, you will want to upgrade"? Of course you want to upgrade!!!

For anyone so motivated, please see this thread about flashing a PC Radeon 8500 for Mac <a href="http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=005422" target="_blank">here</a>.

CIA · Jul 24, 2002, 08:35 AM

Voodoo 2's should be fine. Maybe even Voodoo 1's.

Back up 15 and punt · Jul 24, 2002, 08:56 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MM-o4:
Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete. GRRRRRR. Not good enough Apple!

MM-o4<hr /></blockquote>Gforce2 MX AGP card with 32meg DDR or a Radeon with 32meg of DDR that will support Quartz Extreme. That is the minimum specification. It is the PCI card that will not be supported. You can get the Gforce2 MX card at Megamacs for about $95 plus shipping.

echoes · Jul 24, 2002, 04:56 PM

Ken_F2, is that posted anywhere on xlr8 or was it from some conversation you had?

CheesePuff · Jul 24, 2002, 07:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Back up 15 and punt:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MM-o4:
Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete. GRRRRRR. Not good enough Apple!

MM-o4<hr /></blockquote>Gforce2 MX AGP card with 32meg DDR or a Radeon with 32meg of DDR that will support Quartz Extreme. That is the minimum specification. It is the PCI card that will not be supported. You can get the Gforce2 MX card at Megamacs for about $95 plus shipping.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, but their is another GeForce 2 MX Apple used that had 32 MB of SDRAM. The ones in the new iMacs and eMacs are OK. The ones in the older QuickSilver G4s are the slower ones.

Jim Paradise · Jul 24, 2002, 10:38 PM

Can a GeForce 3 be put in a G4/400 2xAGP?

solitere · Jul 25, 2002, 09:16 AM

Heres some new news about what kind of videocards that will be in the new "G4" Towers!

Dow Jones Business News
ATI Gets Radeon 7000,7500 Pacts For New Desktop PCs

MARKHAM, Ont. -(Dow Jones)- ATI Technologies (NasdaqNM: ATYT - News) Inc.'s RADEON 7000 and RADEON 7500 graphics boards have been selected for various desktop PCs.

In a press release, the company said the RADEON 7000 will be featured in the IBM NetVista M Series, the HP Compaq Presario 6000 series and the Dell Precision Workstation 340, while the RADEON 7500 has been chosen for Apple's PowerMac G4, Hewlett-Packard's EVO-310, Fujitsu's FMV-DESKPOWER and Dell's Optiplex GX260.

The value of these contracts wasn't disclosed.

[ 07-25-2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: solitere ]

G4ME · Jul 25, 2002, 10:08 AM

Too bad that they already have 7500's in the bottom line!

superfula · Jul 25, 2002, 12:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CheesePuff:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Back up 15 and punt:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MM-o4:
Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete. GRRRRRR. Not good enough Apple!

MM-o4<hr /></blockquote>Gforce2 MX AGP card with 32meg DDR or a Radeon with 32meg of DDR that will support Quartz Extreme. That is the minimum specification. It is the PCI card that will not be supported. You can get the Gforce2 MX card at Megamacs for about $95 plus shipping.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, but their is another GeForce 2 MX Apple used that had 32 MB of SDRAM. The ones in the new iMacs and eMacs are OK. The ones in the older QuickSilver G4s are the slower ones.<hr /></blockquote>But the "older" twinview GeForce 2MX in the Quicksilvers (DP800) do support QE

slider · Jul 25, 2002, 06:31 PM

Alright, I thought I was all set, I have an 867QS with a GeForce2 MX, am I OK?

nana2 · Jul 25, 2002, 06:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MM-o4:
Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete. GRRRRRR. Not good enough Apple!

MM-o4<hr /></blockquote>The GF2 MX is a slug of a video card, it was slow and outdated when Apple started to use them. Having such a thing in an AUS$6,000 dollar machine is a rip off, pure and simple.

superfula · Jul 25, 2002, 07:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by slider:
Alright, I thought I was all set, I have an 867QS with a GeForce2 MX, am I OK?<hr /></blockquote>Yes you are fine with the Geforce2MX card. QE will run on it. I am using it with my DP800 and 6c106 and QE is running.

superfula · Jul 25, 2002, 07:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nana2:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MM-o4:
Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete. GRRRRRR. Not good enough Apple!

MM-o4<hr /></blockquote>The GF2 MX is a slug of a video card, it was slow and outdated when Apple started to use them. Having such a thing in an AUS$6,000 dollar machine is a rip off, pure and simple.<hr /></blockquote>That's funny, it works fine for me. I run Warcraft 3 and Allied Assault with full detail and there's no video skipping it all. Pretty good for a "slug of a video card"

Its not the best out there, but its better than what you think

slider · Jul 25, 2002, 08:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by superfula:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by slider:
Alright, I thought I was all set, I have an 867QS with a GeForce2 MX, am I OK?<hr /></blockquote>Yes you are fine with the Geforce2MX card. QE will run on it. I am using it with my DP800 and 6c106 and QE is running.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks, I can't wait to try it out.

[osX]RTouris · Jul 25, 2002, 09:22 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by superfula:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nana2:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MM-o4:
Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete. GRRRRRR. Not good enough Apple!

MM-o4<hr /></blockquote>The GF2 MX is a slug of a video card, it was slow and outdated when Apple started to use them. Having such a thing in an AUS$6,000 dollar machine is a rip off, pure and simple.<hr /></blockquote>That's funny, it works fine for me. I run Warcraft 3 and Allied Assault with full detail and there's no video skipping it all. Pretty good for a "slug of a video card"

Its not the best out there, but its better than what you think<hr /></blockquote>Dammit, how can you even say such a thing? Do you even know what Quartz Extreme is supposed to accelerate? Do some reading first before posting these completely unrelated clueless statements. Quartz Extreme has NOTHING to do with GAMES. Get over it already.

Scotttheking · Jul 25, 2002, 09:29 PM

Since when is QE the only feature of Jaguar, and the only speed increase?
Look, the GF2mx will be supported, and will speed it up.
It will speed your machines up. It won't speed my G3 up. So be happy.

A GF2MX is a low end card, it won't provide as much as a radeon 9700. But it will give you a speedup. You will see it.
So stop whining please.

superfula · Jul 25, 2002, 10:21 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by [osX]RTouris:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by superfula:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nana2:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MM-o4:
Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete. GRRRRRR. Not good enough Apple!

MM-o4<hr /></blockquote>The GF2 MX is a slug of a video card, it was slow and outdated when Apple started to use them. Having such a thing in an AUS$6,000 dollar machine is a rip off, pure and simple.<hr /></blockquote>That's funny, it works fine for me. I run Warcraft 3 and Allied Assault with full detail and there's no video skipping it all. Pretty good for a "slug of a video card"

Its not the best out there, but its better than what you think<hr /></blockquote>Dammit, how can you even say such a thing? Do you even know what Quartz Extreme is supposed to accelerate? Do some reading first before posting these completely unrelated clueless statements. Quartz Extreme has NOTHING to do with GAMES. Get over it already.<hr /></blockquote>Where in my post did I say QE speeds up games? Go on....show me.

Next time READ the post before you spout off. Makes you look like and idiot.

jchen · Jul 26, 2002, 03:02 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by superfula:
[QUOTE]Where in my post did I say QE speeds up games? Go on....show me.

Next time READ the post before you spout off. Makes you look like and idiot.<hr /></blockquote>Where in his post does he say that it's a slug of a card for games? You commented on how the card is "not slow" for Allied Assault, yet the topic is QE so it's expected that people are going to comment on how your post is off-topic.

Who's the idiot now?

ginoledesma · Jul 26, 2002, 04:27 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jim Paradise:
Can a GeForce 3 be put in a G4/400 2xAGP?<hr /></blockquote>Yes, although it isn't supported by Apple. The GeForce3 may need more power than what the 2X AGP slot in the G4/400 can give. It works, although the Mac isn't fast enough to utilize it to its full potential. Check the XLR8YourMac website. It should be there.

superfula · Jul 26, 2002, 10:52 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jchen:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by superfula:
[QUOTE]Where in my post did I say QE speeds up games? Go on....show me.

Next time READ the post before you spout off. Makes you look like and idiot.<hr /></blockquote>Where in his post does he say that it's a slug of a card for games? You commented on how the card is "not slow" for Allied Assault, yet the topic is QE so it's expected that people are going to comment on how your post is off-topic.

Who's the idiot now?<hr /></blockquote>If you read the previous posts (like most do), you'll see that nana2 said the GeForce2MX is a "slug of a video card". And I responded to HIS post about how the GeForce2MX isn't that bad.

The whole thread is about the GF2MX. So I'd say it's right on topic. I know you kids get excited when you think someone else is wrong, but read the whole thread first. I think you're the idiot now.

Xyphoid Process · Jul 26, 2002, 12:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by superfula:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jchen:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by superfula:
[QUOTE]Where in my post did I say QE speeds up games? Go on....show me.

Next time READ the post before you spout off. Makes you look like and idiot.<hr /></blockquote>Where in his post does he say that it's a slug of a card for games? You commented on how the card is "not slow" for Allied Assault, yet the topic is QE so it's expected that people are going to comment on how your post is off-topic.

Who's the idiot now?<hr /></blockquote>If you read the previous posts (like most do), you'll see that nana2 said the GeForce2MX is a "slug of a video card". And I responded to HIS post about how the GeForce2MX isn't that bad.

The whole thread is about the GF2MX. So I'd say it's right on topic. I know you kids get excited when you think someone else is wrong, but read the whole thread first. I think you're the idiot now.<hr /></blockquote>To the rest of us on the board, it's pretty clear that there are two idiots present. If this triviality actually matters to either of you, at least have the courtesy to take the flame war somewhere private.

MacCubeBoy · Jul 26, 2002, 02:47 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Back up 15 and punt:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MM-o4:
Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete. GRRRRRR. Not good enough Apple!

MM-o4<hr /></blockquote>Gforce2 MX AGP card with 32meg DDR or a Radeon with 32meg of DDR that will support Quartz Extreme. That is the minimum specification. It is the PCI card that will not be supported. You can get the Gforce2 MX card at Megamacs for about $95 plus shipping.<hr /></blockquote><a href="http://www.megamacs.com/v1/?action=view&pid=1222022" target="_blank">http://www.megamacs.com/v1/?action=view&pid=1222022</a>

Damn the card doesnt work in my Cube. Is there a Geforce 2 or 3 agp and ADC that will work in my Cube and that will accelerate QE? Or even an ATI card (besides the cube upgrade, which is expensive and hard to find)?

Superchicken · Jul 26, 2002, 03:33 PM

OK, for everyone saying "what my card doesn't support quartz extream"
you're the one who bought it not apple.
If you bought tech that wouldn't support a ton of new technologies in the future, you either did so knowingly or didn't do research on every part. Who says when your machine was built QE was even under development?
I've got a 6 meg graphics card and I'm not complaining... just planning to buy a new Mac.

Back up 15 and punt · Jul 27, 2002, 01:52 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MacCubeBoy:
[/qb]<hr /></blockquote><a href="http://www.megamacs.com/v1/?action=view&pid=1222022" target="_blank">http://www.megamacs.com/v1/?action=view&pid=1222022</a>

Damn the card doesnt work in my Cube. Is there a Geforce 2 or 3 agp and ADC that will work in my Cube and that will accelerate QE? Or even an ATI card (besides the cube upgrade, which is expensive and hard to find)?[/QB][/QUOTE]

You might check at the following web sites for availability:

<a href="http://209.1.58.86/store/detail.las?-token.prod=P007950" target="_blank">http://209.1.58.86/store/detail.las?-token.prod=P007950</a>

x user · Jul 27, 2002, 12:31 PM

Yes the 2MX will work in the Cube. I have a Radeon in mine right now, and although noisy, it does work good.

TomD · Jul 27, 2002, 02:50 PM

I've got an Apple OEM Gef2MX Twinview in my Cube, it
works just fine under OSX.1.5 and plays Quake3 games
with reasonable speed. I pulled the little heatsink and
put a Tennmax Iop fan on it to keep things cool when
running 2 screens at 1600x1200, and from all I've read elsewhere
it will give me a 2-3x speedup on particular operations
under 10.2 , Sure a Ge3 would be faster, but it wont do Twinview
and a 4mx is about the same speed as a GeF3.
The 4ti wont fit in a cube,nor will the ATI 9x00 cards.

But for games, the mac is thoroughly outclassed by my Athlon
gaming rig and I see no change in that for the foreseeable future.
As for GUI acceleration, the average difference between a 2MX and a 4ti
is going to be minimal unless you count stuff like iTunes visuals
as part of your GUI. Again the PC and Winamp plugins trounce the
Mac anyway, if that's what's important to you.

The real bottleneck in a Mac is the 100/133 system bus, PC's are
running 533 now, DDR ram on macs still has to go through the system
bus of 100/133 and that's not changed on any of the G4 series.
The AGP bus is also throttled by the system bus in the same way.

superfula · Jul 28, 2002, 11:56 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TomD:
The real bottleneck in a Mac is the 100/133 system bus, PC's are
running 533 now, DDR ram on macs still has to go through the system
bus of 100/133 and that's not changed on any of the G4 series.
The AGP bus is also throttled by the system bus in the same way.<hr /></blockquote>No PC runs on a 533 bus speed. It's just a quad pumped 133.

TomD · Jul 29, 2002, 02:46 PM

I said CPU bus speed, not PCI or memory.
even so, if you can get a long databurst, DDR400 memory is going to
have a distinct advantage over SDR133 no matter how you 'pump' it.

<a href="http://www.viavpsd.com/" target="_blank">http://www.viavpsd.com/</a>

Has reviews of the latest VIA chipset which supports the 533MHZ
Front-side-bus (FSB) of the Intel P4. The Power PC only supports 133MHZ.
That all you get.. no DDR, no QDR, just 133Mhz.

The new AGP8x is effectively 533MHZ data, that's how they get 280+ FPS
in Quake 3 at 1024x768. It's a marginal improvement for today's cards/games,
but when cards start supporting 256MB of textures and go to floatingpoint
for color calculations, it will make a big difference. (Read: Doom III)

Having 533Mhz bus from the CPU to the northbridge and then to the videocard with 400mhz RAM is going to supercharge PC graphics performance compared to Mac PowerPC 133FSB, 266DDR RAM, 4XAGP. The PC will remain the platform for
gaming and 3D graphics display for home users, above that, you're in SGI/Sun territory and 5 digit prices.

I did see quite a few Macs at SIGGRAPH, mostly in 2D and authoring, they had a nice interactive area with a bunch of machines setup with light-duty tools for people to play around on.

jeffzkpr · Jul 29, 2002, 04:44 PM

Can someone clear this up and simply state if they see a speed increase in video with a GF2 using 10.1.x versus 10.2 betas? At a minimum, there must be some increase in speed by being QExtreme compatible.

I do agree that you'll get more bang for the bcuk with a GF3/4 or Radeon 8500, but the GF2 must provide some speed increase.

Best Regards to all.

jzkpr

[email protected] · Jul 31, 2002, 03:33 PM

Based on all that I've been able to read, as long as your card is supported (which I believe the geforce2 mx card is) you Will see an improvement using Quartz Extreme. In any case (and this may be against forum policy) I happen to have a spare geforce4 mx card I'm hoping to get rid of. Let me know if you are interested. By the way, It should be fully supported, and with 64 megs of ram, should run QE quite well.

Yaser

dilleet · Aug 1, 2002, 12:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MacCubeBoy:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Back up 15 and punt:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MM-o4:
Thats terrible that the GF2mx is not supported. I have a DP800 that is only comming up to being 12months old and it has GF2mx. That is ridiculous that it is not supported! I spent $6000 AUS on this machine, now it's graphics card is obsolete. GRRRRRR. Not good enough Apple!

MM-o4<hr /></blockquote>Gforce2 MX AGP card with 32meg DDR or a Radeon with 32meg of DDR that will support Quartz Extreme. That is the minimum specification. It is the PCI card that will not be supported. You can get the Gforce2 MX card at Megamacs for about $95 plus shipping.<hr /></blockquote><a href="http://www.megamacs.com/v1/?action=view&pid=1222022" target="_blank">http://www.megamacs.com/v1/?action=view&pid=1222022</a>

Damn the card doesnt work in my Cube. Is there a Geforce 2 or 3 agp and ADC that will work in my Cube and that will accelerate QE? Or even an ATI card (besides the cube upgrade, which is expensive and hard to find)?<hr /></blockquote>

dilleet · Aug 1, 2002, 12:59 PM

This GForce MX2 AGP card will work with the Cube, you just need to use the mounts off your stock Cube Radeon card, I checked with MegaMacs and they said that they just hadn't tested it in Cubes. Many other Mac vendors recommend this card for Cubes including MacPros & Mac ResQ, but they sellt he same card for 149.00. Jaguar will need as much VRAM as possible as many of the interface tasks and screen drawing will be handed off from the CPU to the graphic card, but Apple's site had lessened the min req to 16 mb. Obvioulsly mor eis better but a Cube with 32 mgs of VRAM will do fine and even do excellent if your drop in one of the new G4 1G upgrade processors.

MM-o4[/qb][/QUOTE]Gforce2 MX AGP card with 32meg DDR or a Radeon with 32meg of DDR that will support Quartz Extreme. That is the minimum specification. It is the PCI card that will not be supported. You can get the Gforce2 MX card at Megamacs for about $95 plus shipping.[/qb][/QUOTE]<a href="http://www.megamacs.com/v1/?action=view&pid=1222022" target="_blank">http://www.megamacs.com/v1/?action=view&pid=1222022</a>

Damn the card doesnt work in my Cube. Is there a Geforce 2 or 3 agp and ADC that will work in my Cube and that will accelerate QE? Or even an ATI card (besides the cube upgrade, which is expensive and hard to find)?[/qb][/QUOTE][/QB][/QUOTE]