[Oisín]

Bwaahahaha!

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Your PM (why doesn't his name end in "son"?)

Geir Haarde is half Norwegian.

The Icelandic government is bound by EEA laws about guarantees of depositors in Icelandic banks and their branches in other EEA countries.

Iceland has a rather incompetent government and Central Bank management, and perhaps didn't realize this. However, the words of Brown seem to have been demagoguery to solidify his political position in the UK - the Icelandic (naive) chancellor of the exchequer phoned mr. Allistair Darling last tuesday morning and said Iceland will honor the debts to the UK depositor (as well as the Dutch depositors) of Icesave.

On wednesday both he and Brown claim the Icelandic government isn't going to honor these claims.

Perhaps that's true, but in Iceland the government has been genuinely surprised because of these claims. I can tell when they are lying and when they are genuinely surprised. They maintain this is not the case, nor has it ever been. As much distrust and low opinion I have of the Icelandic government, I am inclined to believe them.

In this case Gordon Brown (or whoever is pulling the strings) haven't added fuel to the fire as much as they set the fire, much to the surprise of the Icelandic government which always was going to honor the debts to the depositors. As far as I know, at least, and certainly by the afternoon of last tuesday.

I have listened to the press conferences both in Icelandic and English, and that's my take on it. The news in English media has been dishonest at best.

There is however a mistrust between the UK and Iceland and has been for some months now already.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

There is however a mistrust between the UK and Iceland and has been for some months now already.

Dude, if the current UK government told me it was a Friday, I'd have to launch iCal just to check.

Please, please, please all you Icelandic folks - write into any and all comments pages on major UK news sites. The proper version of this story could do with an airing in public.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Dude, if the current UK government told me it was a Friday, I'd have to launch iCal just to check.

Please, please, please all you Icelandic folks - write into any and all comments pages on major UK news sites. The proper version of this story could do with an airing in public.

Very true, however it seems the press is in on this. I listened to a BBC reporter ask questions at today's press conference - so they were there for sure - where the Icelandic prime minister underlined that the Icelandic government will honor the debts of Icesave to UK depositors and in fact the new laws passed on Iceland last monday assure that priority will be given to the claims of depositor (owners of savings accounts) before the usual creditors of the bank.

Then I read this on the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7662027.stm

The clarification of the Icelandic prime minister is boiled down to this only:

"But [the Icelandic prime minister] said he had cleared up a number of issues with Mr Darling. "

Something is very strange. I didn't have much faith in the BBC before, but that's even more one sided than I would have expected.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2008...lution-sought/

Enough for you?

Thanks for providing that link (which has that same statement that is all over the net):

The Prime Minister of Iceland, Geir H. Haarde, has just concluded a press conference in which he said that the government remains intent on working out a “mutually agreeable” solution to the issue of compensating savers with Icesave accounts in the UK.

Translated: "We cannot guarantee the savings. However we will give you a token amount."

ie. In terms of politician speak, this is the HUGE red flag that tells the story. If the Icelandic government ever had the intent of guaranteeing savings, they would say "We will guarantee all saving amounts as obligated by our deposit insurance agreements" or something like that. Iceland has not said this, and in truth, cannot say this, because there is essentially no way for Iceland to do it. The money isn't there.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

On topic: I wonder how much of Reykjavik nonhuman's going to be able to buy next month.

As much kæstur hákarl and Ákavíti as I can get my hands on!

And perhaps a whaling fleet or two, while I'm at it as well.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Thanks for providing that link (which has that same statement that is all over the net):

The Prime Minister of Iceland, Geir H. Haarde, has just concluded a press conference in which he said that the government remains intent on working out a “mutually agreeable” solution to the issue of compensating savers with Icesave accounts in the UK.

Translated: "We cannot guarantee the savings. However we will give you a token amount."

ie. In terms of politician speak, this is the HUGE red flag that tells the story. If the Icelandic government ever had the intent of guaranteeing savings, they would say "We will guarantee all saving amounts as obligated by our deposit insurance agreements" or something like that. Iceland has not said this, and in truth, cannot say this, because there is essentially no way for Iceland to do it. The money isn't there.

Far be it from me to defend mr Haarde, but he made it pretty clear that people in the UK will get their deposits back, if for no other reason than that the bank's assets when liquified should suffice and depositors have priority over normal creditors, according to the law.

After that there is a legally assured fund which covers loss of depositors which should cover the rest of the bank's debt to them, if there is any left.

I don't know if it came across, but these banks had good investments and properties. These are of course used to repay creditors when the banks are liquified and depositors are primary creditors.

That is the situation of today.

Again, far be it from me to defend those sods, but your analysis is off the mark by a considerable margin.

[Gee4orce]

The issue isn't individual creditors loosing out - that's been guaranteed.

The problem is there's no guarantee for institutions that have invested in Icelandic banks - and that includes a lot of public bodies in the UK. There's as much as £1b at stake here.

You Icelanders had better start breaking open your piggie banks, because the want our money back...

[Sayf-Allah]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4916541.ece

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce 

The issue isn't individual creditors loosing out - that's been guaranteed.

The problem is there's no guarantee for institutions that have invested in Icelandic banks - and that includes a lot of public bodies in the UK. There's as much as £1b at stake here.

You Icelanders had better start breaking open your piggie banks, because the want our money back...

Maybe your media (and you) should focus on how f*cking useless those public bodies (city councils and others like it), when they put a lot of UK money in foreign banks? Knowing full well that those banks were a bigger risk than regular UK banks.

But no, that would mean they'd have to take political responsibility themselves. Much better to ruin a whole nation instead....

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce 

The issue isn't individual creditors loosing out - that's been guaranteed.

The problem is there's no guarantee for institutions that have invested in Icelandic banks - and that includes a lot of public bodies in the UK. There's as much as £1b at stake here.

You Icelanders had better start breaking open your piggie banks, because the want our money back...

Yeah yeah

Seriously though, it is my opinion that the whole thing has been blown out of proportions and instead of negotiating with the Icelandic government, the UK PM has chosen to make a media spectacle out of this.

What's the point with that other than to grab votes? This demagoguery led to a knee-jerk freezing of the assets of another unrelated Icelandic bank through the misuse of anti-terrorist laws and led to it's bankruptcy which further increased the problems people in the UK are having.

Brown may have felt it 'necessary', but in the long run it's a bad thing for UK citizens. A hundred thousand UK jobs are on the line, so in my opinion making this a banal 'us vs them' issue is hardly in anyone's interest except Gordon Brown's.

Iceland will pay, that is and was pretty clear. The question is when, not if. And it doesn't have anything to do with Brown's antics.

[Eug]

Short of loaning them the money to get them to pay the money back, there is simply no way for Iceland to cover the shortfalls. The simple truth of the matter is that there is not enough money there. I don't doubt that Iceland wants to be able to cover those deposits, but it can't, which is why it won't guarantee them.

Show me a single quote from anywhere that says they guarantee the full amount. That's right, you can't, because they haven't said that.

What seems clear is that the Icelandic government feels terrible about all of this but feels betrayed as their economy falls down around them. And I empathize. However, even if they feel bad and want to pay everyone back, they can't. Iceland knows this, which is why they won't guarantee those deposits. The UK knows this, which is why they froze the assets of the other bank.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Show me a single quote from anywhere that says they guarantee the full amount. That's right, you can't, because they haven't said that.

Iceland isn't required to guarantee the full amount. That was clear to the depositors (or at least they should have checked that).

What seems clear is that the Icelandic government feels terrible about all of this but feels betrayed as their economy falls down around them. And I empathize. However, even if they feel bad and want to pay everyone back, they can't. Iceland knows this, which is why they won't guarantee those deposits. The UK knows this, which is why they froze the assets of the other bank.

Using anti-terrorism laws. Saying Iceland and Icelanders are terrorists. F*ck them!

Iceland will pay for it. We'll probably sell our soul to the the IMF and destroy our nation while we're at it but we'll pay for it.

But this will cost us a lot more since the UK basically destroyed what was left of the Icelandic economy. People here on Iceland are furious. In our culture you don't treat friends like this. Treating friends like this usually results in severe retaliation.

I for one would not want to be a Brit downtown Reykjavik this weekend if the rumours are anything to go by......

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Iceland isn't required to guarantee the full amount. That was clear to the depositors (or at least they should have checked that).

No but Iceland is required to pay back a specific amount as part of the deposit insurance obligations. However, they haven't said they will guarantee even that.

But even if they did, there still is a crapload of money that would go unpaid, and as you've seen, the UK is pissed either way.

Using anti-terrorism laws. Saying Iceland and Icelanders are terrorists.

I don't think that's appropriate either, but what would you say had they used some other law to do it? The effect would be the same.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Eug 

No but Iceland is required to pay back a specific amount as part of the deposit insurance obligations. However, they haven't said they will guarantee even that.

FFS. Do you even read what I've posted? Check the links I posted above.

Iceland has stated several times that we will honour all our obligations.

But even if they did, there still is a crapload of money that would go unpaid, and as you've seen, the UK is pissed either way.

Yes, but that's a risk depositors take when the deposit more money at an account than they are guaranteed back. Not our problem.

But let me guess, you'll repeat the lie that we won't honour our obligations won't you? No matter how many links you get or how often me and voodoo say what our PM says at the press conferences (where the foreign media is also but just forget to mention it in their reports abroad....).

I don't think that's appropriate either, but what would you say had they used some other law to do it? The effect would be the same.

Yup, the effect would be the same. But it wouldn't have tarred Iceland and Icelanders as terrorists. If the UK government were competent in the least they would know how Icelandic culture deals with slurs......

[voodoo]

You are confusing a lot of things. Clearly you don't understand the situation or the legal framework very well nor the responsibilities between the banks, their customers and the Icelandic state.

Originally Posted by Eug 

Short of loaning them the money to get them to pay the money back, there is simply no way for Iceland to cover the shortfalls.

First of all, there is the claims between the bank and it's customer and when a bank is defaulted the customers have a claim to their assets when liquidated. According to Icelandic laws, the depositors have primary claim and by estimates the liquidated assets of Landsbankinn will be able to cover most, perhaps all of these claims. That's as far as the claims between bank and customers go.

Then there are the state laws which stipulate guarantees of deposits up to a prefixed limit, payable from a preexisting fund, which comes into effect if the depositors' claims up to that limit cannot be attained.

So, you are wrong.

Originally Posted by Eug 

The simple truth of the matter is that there is not enough money there.

That statement is based on what, exactly? The depositor's guarantee fund is there, the assets of the bank are there and since primary claim goes to the depositors, the statement you make is wrong. Under normal circumstances where depositors don't have primary claim, you'd be right. However, since you don't know the Icelandic legal environment, you can't know.

Originally Posted by Eug 

I don't doubt that Iceland wants to be able to cover those deposits, but it can't, which is why it won't guarantee them.

The state has no obligation to guarantee those deposits, not to Icelanders or any other depositors in Icelandic banks, other than up to the predetermined amount - which is guaranteed. There has never been a question about that, except in the Angloshphere.

Originally Posted by Eug 

Show me a single quote from anywhere that says they guarantee the full amount. That's right, you can't, because they haven't said that.

Of course, but the state has no obligation to do so. There is an inherent risk involved with all banking, a risk everyone takes when they lend their money away. However, the mechanism provides better than normal position for the depositors in case of liquidation and there is a 20 000€ guarantee.

Originally Posted by Eug 

What seems clear is that the Icelandic government feels terrible about all of this but feels betrayed as their economy falls down around them.

Perhaps they feel so, but in to a large extent they have only themselves to blame. Although, like in all disasters, an unlikely series of events happens and people rightly feel that when such situation occurs they should be shown a certain amount of understanding. Iceland's main problem is real currency (as opposed to the krona), not assets, industry or workforce. It's this lack of currency which caused the banks to fail - which they wouldn't have in an environment where the currency is the Euro, Pound or Dollar.

You have to realize that all the Icelandic banks defaulted - basically the same as all the US banks defaulting, all the Canadian banks defaulting etc. The situation is certainly bleak in the world today, but that's still far better than in Iceland. Much of that situation can be put on the shoulders of reluctant central banks in the UK and the US.

Originally Posted by Eug 

And I empathize. However, even if they feel bad and want to pay everyone back, they can't. Iceland knows this, which is why they won't guarantee those deposits.

A blanket guarantee is a local political move and not the responsibility of the Icelandic state. Ireland has offered a blanket guarantee, for instance, but not for Irish bank branches in other countries. This is a legal and political thing and legally, the Icelandic state has no obligation to make blanket guarantees in the branches of Icelandic banks in other countries, but will and can of course honor the predetermined guarantee.

You don't insure after the disaster, unless there is political will to do so and there isn't in this case. That's fair business, because most will be covered by the predetermined guarantee - but those who took the chance and put their savings all in one bank exceeding the guarantee can't expect to be covered over that limit.

Why should they? Shouldn't they have spread the risk? Isn't that sound investment? Isn't that why we have a saying about just that?

Originally Posted by Eug 

The UK knows this, which is why they froze the assets of the other bank.

No, the UK froze the assets to make a political statement and to grab votes. That move will cost UK jobs and puts an unnecessary strain on the relations of Iceland and the UK.

Bottom line is, the Icelandic state can and will honor its guarantees made, up to the 20 000€ limit but has no further responsibility. Gordon Brown has threatened to sue and he's welcome to it.

The stated reason for the asset freeze was that they noticed a significant movement of currency from the UK to Iceland. These movements were the actions of the unrelated Kaupthing bank, where it was liquidating assets to refinance their loans so they wouldn't default and would be able to cover their debts in the UK and other countries.

Gordon Brown wouldn't have any of that and froze the assets of that bank (completely unrelated to Icesave/Landsbankinn) and effectively pushed it into immediate default. Good move, politically. Bad move for UK jobs and the relations between the UK and Iceland.

That's the long and short of it.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

What's the point with that other than to grab votes?

I smell Mandelson behind all this.

And I smell an "invite" for Iceland to join the EU as a way to get out of the mess.

You heard it here first.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

I for one would not want to be a Brit downtown Reykjavik this weekend if the rumours are anything to go by......

Why, what ya gonna do? Slap us with a halibut?

Seriously, if that wasn't you posting on the Mail site earlier as "Osama in Iceland" (and thus haven't already read what the UK thinks of Brown), please inform your countrymen that the vast majority of the UK public thinks that Brown is a donkeyorifice. Same goes for his minions.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I smell Mandelson behind all this.

And I smell an "invite" for Iceland to join the EU as a way to get out of the mess.

You heard it here first.

I completely agree, Doofy. Great minds think alike and all that

[voodoo]

Here is yesterday's press conference, but it is first in Icelandic (passing on secret Icelandic information) and then in English.

http://dagskra.ruv.is/streaming/clip/?file=4448780 (WiMP format)

You can draw your own conclusions from the words of the prime minster there, Eug.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Why, what ya gonna do? Slap us with a halibut?

It worked fine on the US troops that were once based here.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I smell Mandelson behind all this.

And I smell an "invite" for Iceland to join the EU as a way to get out of the mess.

You heard it here first.

Oh, and you forgot one thing. Now we aren't in a position to negotiate so now the EU can take our natural resources for themselves (read: our fish).

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Here is yesterday's press conference, but it is first in Icelandic (passing on secret Icelandic information) and then in English.

http://dagskra.ruv.is/streaming/clip/?file=4448780 (WiMP format)

You can draw your own conclusions from the words of the prime minster there, Eug.

28 min in is where the English part starts.

[mattyb]

I don't get why there are so many Brits, and councils and charities who put money in Iceland. WTF?

Icesave, FFS. My best mate just told me that he had £18K with them.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

I don't get why there are so many Brits, and councils and charities who put money in Iceland. WTF?

Icesave, FFS. My best mate just told me that he had £18K with them.

Then he'll get his money back.

And the reason why people did that was because the interest rates were so much higher than in the UK. Simple math really.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

I don't get why there are so many Brits, and councils and charities who put money in Iceland. WTF?

Higher interest rates than domestic, but still presented to them on a plate.

Of course, it's possible to get the same rate from a safe bank in a proper offshore jurisdiction - but these people never advertise their wares during the ad break half way through Coronation Street.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Then he'll get his money back.

And the reason why people did that was because the interest rates were so much higher than in the UK. Simple math really.

No, sorry its not maths. Its greed.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Its greed.

Greed is good.

Just ask the French tax office.

[mattyb]

I pay less income tax in France as a father of two then I would in the UK Doofy.

[Sayf-Allah]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3806031.ece

The law that was used against the Icelandic assets.....

And people wonder why we are angry.....

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

You have to realize that all the Icelandic banks defaulted - basically the same as all the US banks defaulting, all the Canadian banks defaulting etc. The situation is certainly bleak in the world today, but that's still far better than in Iceland.

Just as an aside, with really nothing to do with this thread…no Canadian banks defaulted, and there's no indication that any Canadian banks are in danger of defaulting as of right now.

It now looks like the government is going to be buying $25 billion in insured mortgage pools, but this is just a "bank boost," and probably more of an "election boost" because of renewed opposition attacks on our economy before the elections this Tuesday.

So far, fingers crossed, Canada seems to be in very, very fine shape through all this.

greg

[Sayf-Allah]

http://ruv.is/live

For those that want to watch the PC.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Here is yesterday's press conference, but it is first in Icelandic (passing on secret Icelandic information) and then in English.

http://dagskra.ruv.is/streaming/clip/?file=4448780 (WiMP format)

You can draw your own conclusions from the words of the prime minster there, Eug.

Thanks. I listened to the entire English speech and the entire Q/A session. Very well spoken guy in English.

He specifically said he guarantees domestic Icelandic deposits. However, he refused to guarantee the 20000 Euros per depositor for the Dutch, and he refused to guarantee the 20000 pounds per depositor for the Brits. He didn't actually answer the question with regards to the Finns.

[Hugi]

The english part of the Press Conference is starting, if you want to watch, the time is now :-)

http://ruv.is/live

[Sayf-Allah]

Latest update:

We've made a deal with the dutch authories making it possible to pay the dutch depositors their share from the Icelandic government in the next few days (I think). Holland will loan Iceland the amount needed. So that's one problem solved.

Same with Norway although the details of the deal aren't sure.

Wonder if the Brits will realise resolving this as friends will result in a swifter conclusion to this or if they'll continue to play politics.

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by Sayf-Allah 

Latest update:

We've made a deal with the dutch authories making it possible to pay the dutch depositors their share from the Icelandic government in the next few days (I think). Holland will loan Iceland the amount needed. So that's one problem solved.

Same with Norway although the details of the deal aren't sure.

Wonder if the Brits will realise resolving this as friends will result in a swifter conclusion to this or if they'll continue to play politics.

[Sayf-Allah]

Originally Posted by yakkiebah 

Iceland and Holland dealt with this as friends (no matter what the media said). This is how problems like this should be solved. Depositors get the money they were guaranteed (unfortunately not all their deposits though), Holland will make some money from loaning Iceland what's needed and Iceland will have time to reorganise.

to the Dutch authorities for acting like friends.

But here's hoping Iceland will hold paying the UK citizens their money until a likely lawsuit is settled. Iceland/Kaupþing might have a case against the UK government and the compensation might run into several billions sterling pounds.

It's quite possible that c*nt Gordon Brown has cost the UK citizens more than they'd ever loose due to the collapse of the Icelandic banks.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

I pay less income tax in France as a father of two then I would in the UK Doofy.

Time for Doofy to claim all his bunny offspring

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Bwaahahaha!

Link dead

-t

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Link dead

-t

Funny while it lasted..

[Hugi]

I can't help but wonder how many scrillions of pounds Gordon Brown's apparent lack of capabilty for intelligent thought has cost the British public. I mean - in a couple of hours, the man singlehandedly destructed the remains of the Icelandic nation, just for political gain. I don't even understand how Britain is still an independent nation with an asshole like that for a PM.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Hugi 

I can't help but wonder how many scrillions of pounds Gordon Brown's apparent lack of capabilty for intelligent thought has cost the British public. I mean - in a couple of hours, the man singlehandedly destructed the remains of the Icelandic nation, just for political gain. I don't even understand how Britain is still an independent nation with an asshole like that for a PM.

Paging Doofy - Paging Doofy!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Paging Doofy - Paging Doofy!

Oh don't get me started on the snotgobbler. Come the revolution, I'm feeding that muppet through an industrial mincing machine. And televising it live, with Ant and Dec presenting.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Oh don't get me started on the snotgobbler. Come the revolution, I'm feeding that muppet through an industrial mincing machine. And televising it live, with Ant and Dec presenting.

I love that clip of Broon!

[Andrew Stephens]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Oh don't get me started on the snotgobbler. Come the revolution, I'm feeding that muppet through an industrial mincing machine. And televising it live, with Ant and Dec presenting.

The man is a dick. Pure and simple. Remember he flogged of our gold, even though he didn't need to, at the bottom of the market. Could do with it now I suspect.

[Sayf-Allah]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...celand-banking

[Sayf-Allah]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4943712.ece

[Doofy]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle4938573.ece

Iceland looks again at joining EU after £100m loan

There ya go. All designed to do exactly what Mandy wanted it to do.

[Sayf-Allah]

Good article from the FT

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/80f767e4-9...077b07658.html

[Sayf-Allah]

You guys see anything wrong with this?

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/fin_sa...rrentindex.htm