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Bouba · Jan 14, 2003, 02:43 AM

Apple, in its history, has always released stuff before its time: newton, opendoc, etc...

I wonder if apple was to release opendoc again if it would be widelly adopted?!?!

Anyways, it would fit with the services of os X!
What do you think?!

edit: pressed enter prematurally...

Marook · Jan 14, 2003, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Bouba:
Apple, in its history, has always released stuff before its time: newton, opendoc, etc...

Yeah, this would be a welcome back!

And if they would then just get a new Newton out...

Millennium · Jan 14, 2003, 03:11 AM

Actually, this is already possible in Cocoa, though the API is different. Rumor also has it that Apple had OpenDoc working on OSX early in its development, but scrapped it in favor of Cocoa's model.

A real shame, in some ways. SOM -the CORBA-based engine behind OpenDoc- was superior to Microsoft's COM in several important ways. I don't know a whole lot about Cocoa's component model; perhaps someone else can chime in about this?

Cipher13 · Jan 14, 2003, 03:40 AM

I don't see this happening while Steve is in office, despite any advantages.

He seems pretty intent on killing anything *he* didn't spearhead.

cwasko · Jan 14, 2003, 03:54 AM

Well, lets clarify a couple of things. The concept of OpenDoc was kewl; however, the implementation was horrible. I remember actually being excited when OpenDoc came out. After attempting to use it though, it became painfully obvious that it wasn't going to go anywhere. The API was so horrible not even Apple could make something useful from it. I think the only thing in OpenDoc that I liked was the Adrenaline Charts and, of course, everyone's favorite pet, CyberDog.

If they were to bring back Component technology, then please, for the love of a higher being, do not call it OpenDoc. Do not even make reference to OpenDoc. Overall, I think the paradigm shift from a task centric to document centric work flow will take a long time, if not forever. Even if it was proven to be a better work flow, it would still take the resources of many developers to support it. Unfortunately, in the current market place, this is not going to happen anytime soon.

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Jan 14, 2003, 04:00 AM

"services" is close enough.

undotwa · Jan 14, 2003, 06:52 AM

We have no need for OpenDoc. We have the exact same functionality with Frameworks.

Safari accesses the address book, so does iChat. And there is also Services.

BuonRotto · Jan 14, 2003, 10:20 AM

Not only frameworks, but pre-built Cocoa objects like the color panel and the fonts panel. There are a bunch of these preset objects ready for use by developers. Cocoa and OS X deliver on all of OpenDoc's promises.

BHD · Jan 14, 2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by BuonRotto:
Cocoa and OS X deliver on all of OpenDoc's promises.

Sorry, but this just isn't true. If it were, I'd be able to drag an OmniGraffle diagram on Keynote and be able to edit in place.

I think Cocoa could still benefit from a component system...

absmiths · Jan 14, 2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by BHD:
Sorry, but this just isn't true. If it were, I'd be able to drag an OmniGraffle diagram on Keynote and be able to edit in place.

I think Cocoa could still benefit from a component system...

Not to mention replacing the HTML component within Explorer with Gecko...

Meteo · Jan 14, 2003, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by BHD:
Sorry, but this just isn't true. If it were, I'd be able to drag an OmniGraffle diagram on Keynote and be able to edit in place.

I think Cocoa could still benefit from a component system...

I agree... OD was very exciting but realisation was not so good.
the idea could be implement in os x, and that would be great.
and framework is far away from OD. whatever is the function in one soft, you could have it all your apps (if it is compliant with OD of course...)
but aren't the OD patents were bought by IBM or M$ few years ago?

BuonRotto · Jan 14, 2003, 07:30 PM

My announcement was over-arching, but in effect it's true that you have the functionality of OpenDoc with OS X. You can do drag-n-drop elements like this among apps, you just have to use standard datatypes. I imagine it's not rocket science to add more types and create those types on the fly in an app like OmniGraffle.

You're never going to have the perfectly-interchangeable-toolkits-without-apps idea simply because it's not good business. You need developers, and they need to make exclusive tools to make a buck. So, no, you're not going to reproduce OpenDoc in OS X, but you have all the important and feasible aspects covered.

Millennium · Jan 14, 2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by BHD:
Sorry, but this just isn't true. If it were, I'd be able to drag an OmniGraffle diagram on Keynote and be able to edit in place.

Only if both OmniGraffle and Keybote were container apps.

That's the fundamental problem that killed OpenDoc: Apple dragged its feet in making its own apps containers. They promised it for both the Finder and AppleWorks, but they never delivered on either of these

Unfortunately, the current situation with Cocoa isn't terribly better. However, that is not to say it cannot be done. The real problem is getting developers to implement the technology. Be that Cocoa or OpenDoc, the technology is worthless if it doesn't get supported.

undotwa · Jan 14, 2003, 08:16 PM

We already have the technology in Frameworks (although limited).

You can drag QuickTime object to textedit to play, and it will call on the QuickTime framework. Probably the only thing that Frameworks doesn't have that OpenDoc has is the ability to call on Frameworks it hasn't been told to do by the developer (users can't pick which frameworks to call).

And services can do just about anything to content which the application supports.

cpt kangarooski · Jan 14, 2003, 08:57 PM

That's not the best example to use, really. QT's been able to do things like that for as long as I can remember. Probably all the way back to QT 1.x. Sadly, it doesn't seem to have ever been part of the Windows port.

argod · Jan 14, 2003, 09:52 PM

Why don't you guy look up "Software IC" and who coined that term.

http://www.mactech.com/articles/mact...06/ObjectWare/

Anyone asking for OpenDoc and COM has not a clue of what NeXTStep already had provided in 1993 that needed to be invented by C++ world.

Bouba · Jan 15, 2003, 12:43 AM

Is it me or they have started to add interoperability between apps of the iLife package, which is really good, It should be good to see a wider adoption.

undotwa · Jan 15, 2003, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by cpt kangarooski:
That's not the best example to use, really. QT's been able to do things like that for as long as I can remember. Probably all the way back to QT 1.x. Sadly, it doesn't seem to have ever been part of the Windows port.

Yes but it uses the same idea. Just like any app can access the HTMLView (hopefully soon to be replaced with the new WebCore KHTML stuff) and RTF frameworks.

This means that any application which works with QuickTime can open just about any media type that QuickTime supports.

I know you can already do this in OS 9, but never with this kind of flexibility. If the service manipulates text -any app that supports services (all Cocoa apps and just about any Carbon app) can use the feature to manipulate the text - without any additional programming by the developer. Image manipulation service? Same thing. Isn't this what we wanted?