[driven]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

freudling, you seem to be the only one who thinks Windows Phone 7 is going to get anywhere. Most people are calling it a market failure.

Thus far it is. I have my theories, but I find it curious that you have various manufacturers build it, but then spec it out so tightly that, regardless of vendor, it's the same phone.

But anyway: I do wonder if Nokia might change this "failure" status a bit. They ship a LOT of phones, and a lot of those end up in corporations. If they ramp up quickly, It will be hard to ignore WinPhone 7. (and I'll have to brush up on my Silverlight).

I'm curious when/if the scanner manufacturers stop using Win Mobile 6.1/6.5 and move to WinPhone 7 (or will they move to something else?)

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

freudling, you seem to be the only one who thinks Windows Phone 7 is going to get anywhere. Most people are calling it a market failure.

We'll see. They just partnered with Nokia, and are releasing a major upgrade this year. You might be forgetting one thing: there's already a ton of Windows users in the world. It's not dead yet.

[Shaddim]

Windows, on a phone? As if it being on a PC wasn't bad enough.

[Spheric Harlot]

As if Windows Phone 7 had even the *slightest* bit to do with Windows - other than being afflicted with associative branding.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by driven 

Thus far it is. I have my theories, but I find it curious that you have various manufacturers build it, but then spec it out so tightly that, regardless of vendor, it's the same phone.

That's just the point though: it's the only way to avoid Android's failings - by following the iOS model of tightly controlled and specced hardware.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

As if Windows Phone 7 had even the *slightest* bit to do with Windows - other than being afflicted with associative branding.

and a common development platform: Visual Studio & Silverlight.

[driven]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

That's just the point though: it's the only way to avoid Android's failings - by following the iOS model of tightly controlled and specced hardware.

So have one vendor build it. Or have Microsoft themselves build it. I don't get why you need multiple vendors to build products with no differentiation. Just confuses things.

[Spheric Harlot]

That's the point of this Nokia adventure, isn't it?

Now that all others are obviously two-timing or outright jumping ship for Android, MS is hedging its bets.

[Langdon]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Now, traditional wisdom would agree with you. But the world's changed. There's nary any brand loyalty, although Apple shines amongst the rest in this regard. However, the exact opposite of what you're saying could happen. Tech is evolving so quickly, smartphones, tablets, and laptops are like jewellery.

Demonstrable: RIM and Nokia had huge hegemony and dominance. They were entrenched deeply in the mobile space and at the top of their game. Google and Apple have demonstrated that in a few short years, all of that can be turned around.

Not even close to being the same.
RIM and Nokia were then focusing their smartphone on the business market. The phones and operating systems were geared in every way as business tools and they excelled at that and in many ways RIM still does among those types of users. iOS and subsequently Andriod came out with the normal consumer in mind and the operating systems were far more entertainment oriented and social media friendly. That is where they grew their market out of.

And there is very much a strong brand loyalty in this area. The reputation and associated images of the types of phones are burned into the collective general public and are not going to change anytime soon.

WebOS has a huge hole to climb out of and the most likely end will be that they will fight out for fourth place with Microsoft unable to catch up to Google, Apple, and RIM in whatever order they end up at.

[driven]

To that last point:

RIM is dying a slow, painful death. They are only dying slightly slower than Symbian was. (and they never caught up to the Symbian market to begin with.)

Everyone else may be playing catchup, but unless something spectacular comes out of Waterloo, I'd say the best days are behind them.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by driven 

Everyone else may be playing catchup, but unless something spectacular comes out of Waterloo, I'd say the best days are behind them.

I think you mean Espoo

[driven]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

I think you mean Espoo

No. I mean Waterloo. RIM is based in Waterloo.

[imitchellg5]

Oh oh. I thought you were talking about RIM. Well, it applies to both at this point

[driven]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Oh oh. I thought you were talking about RIM. Well, it applies to both at this point

???

[imitchellg5]

Everyone else may be playing catchup, but unless something spectacular comes out of Waterloo, I'd say the best days are behind them.

Your statement applies to both RIM and Nokia (Nokia are based in Espoo, Finland).

[driven]

Sorry. Missed that. At least Nokia is trying the big bet. RIM's just sitting around fat & happy.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by driven 

Sorry. Missed that. At least Nokia is trying the big bet. RIM's just sitting around fat & happy.

Yeah! RIM needs to go out and get a job.

[brassplayersrock²]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Yeah! RIM needs to go out and get a job.

Did you mean to make that joke?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Langdon 

Not even close to being the same.

Yes, it is.

You said:

Originally Posted by Langdon 

They end up with no gains and let Apple/Google increase their lead as people become more deeply invested in their platform ecosystem. People are buying apps left and right on their iOS and Android phones. They aren't going to want to just abandon that money when its time to upgrade smartphones or even tablets. It really does seem like its too little too late.

My point was that people are willing to abandon mobile platforms for others much more easily than you are portraying. I gave two concrete examples of companies who entered a seemingly impossible market and are unseating the kings from their thorns.

And, investment in Apps? Ha. People spend a small amount on Apps per year. There's no real investment there. Did you know that across several studies, the majority of people use an App only once, and for less than 5 minutes?

[brassplayersrock²]

Sources please.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

Sources please.

Go Google it yourself, it's out there. But I will post some references because I guess, your hands are tied?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Go Google it yourself, it's out there. But I will post some references because I guess, your hands are tied?

Or perhaps you could illuminate us with which specific sources you felt were compelling enough to support your statement.

I for one am interested in finding where you got the data to suggest that "the majority of people use an App only once, and for less than 5 minutes." What demographics constitute this majority? Do they represent the core audience for any apps at all, or are they merely sampling things because they don't have a real purpose for their smart phones? Are these apps iPhone specific, or do your sources include all smart phone apps? It's kind of important to know something about what the data refer to, or one may as well simply spout numbers without any reference at all...

[freudling]

1. Unseating the Kings:

Nokia and RIM have lost a lot of marketshare over the past two years while Android and Apple have gained.

iOS and Android: Smartphones push up mobile sales | Mobile | silicon.com

2. One survey by Appsfire: In about a years time, iPhone owners each spent about 80 bucks on Apps. The average price per App was $1.56. 65% of Apps on users' devices are free.

I worked on a report recently and we used about 6 or 7 different surveys. Some are paid for, and not on the Web. Why can't stats just be free or low cost, instead of like $450 for a 25 page 'report'?

Anyway.

Across three of the surveys, they showed that ~58-75% of iPhone users polled… 80% of the Apps that were downloaded were only used once, and for less than 5 minutes each.

Here's one that's linked to on the Web. This one is much more favourable - 26% of mobile Apps are only opened once:

26% of Mobile Apps Are Opened Only Once

For paid Apps… for Android, webOS, BB, and iOS, there'll about the same in terms of number of paid Apps-to-total App revenues, according to AdMob. Meaning, 1 paid App purchased on Android is about the same cost, on average, as 1 App that is purchased on iOS. This, according to AdMob.

Total investment in Apps? Using the below stat, there's about 60 Apps per iOS device, so at $1.56 each, that's about $94 per person. This is cumulative since 2008. Of note, 65,000 iOS Apps are no longer available/supported.

More than 60 apps have been downloaded for every iOS device sold | asymco

3. Abandoning a platform:

Let's look at iOS: $94 isn't that much. It's not hard to leave something with that invested. We're talking all iOS devices: iPod/iPad/iPhone. Contracts though, can keep people locked in on iPhones.

Android and webOS. Many free Apps. The average number of paid Apps downloaded per month for Android users is 1.1, for webOS it's 0.6, and for iOS it's 1.8. So presumably, with less paid Apps being downloaded, there's even less invested. These stats, according to AdMob.

Blackberry seems to have even less traffic than these guys.

iPhone Users Average 40 Apps, Android 25, BlackBerry 14

So, I don't see that the data would suggest that users have a ton of money invested in a mobile platform in terms of Apps. Therefore, it's not something that's going to lock them into one platform.

4. What about their willingness to jump ship?

Surveys abound supporting this.

For example, Android and BB users polled: significant amount want to opt for a Verizon iPhone:

Recent Poll Suggests Blackberry & Android users want iPhone

Mid-last year:

40% Of BlackBerry Users Willing to Jump Ship for an iPhone...

Poll: 40% Of BlackBerry Users Willing to Jump Ship for an iPhone? - BerryReview

Many more.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Let's look at iOS: $94 isn't that much. It's not hard to leave something with that invested. We're talking all iOS devices: iPod/iPad/iPhone. Contracts though, can keep people locked in on iPhones.

I agree, to a point.

If it were all about apps, and webOS offered the apps that were important to me (or the equivalent), and they made a phone I wanted (not in the pipeline, but may show up), I would consider switching.

However, it's not that simple. If I moved to a webOS device, I could no longer control my phone/music player with my car stereo. I could no longer pop it in a in one of three cradles around my house connected to stereos or speakers. I could no longer use my Apple TV to stream music/videos from my hand-held device. I could play music I'd bought from iTunes (either DRM free stuff or my burning to CD and re-ripping) but could not play films/TV shows without real work. I could not easily walk into any electronics store and buy upgrades to any of these that I know would work smoothly with my device.

Apple was very clever to move to the dock connector and tie everyone in. You (and others) may resent the walled garden, but to many, it's a pretty nice garden and I am willing to use a platform that is inferior in some ways to stay part of it- the advantages are pretty high.

So it's not $94 I'd be giving up, it's in the $100s or $1000s.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

I agree, to a point.

If it were all about apps, and webOS offered the apps that were important to me (or the equivalent), and they made a phone I wanted (not in the pipeline, but may show up), I would consider switching.

However, it's not that simple. If I moved to a webOS device, I could no longer control my phone/music player with my car stereo. I could no longer pop it in a in one of three cradles around my house connected to stereos or speakers. I could no longer use my Apple TV to stream music/videos from my hand-held device. I could play music I'd bought from iTunes (either DRM free stuff or my burning to CD and re-ripping) but could not play films/TV shows without real work. I could not easily walk into any electronics store and buy upgrades to any of these that I know would work smoothly with my device.

Apple was very clever to move to the dock connector and tie everyone in. You (and others) may resent the walled garden, but to many, it's a pretty nice garden and I am willing to use a platform that is inferior in some ways to stay part of it- the advantages are pretty high.

So it's not $94 I'd be giving up, it's in the $100s or $1000s.

Now you have a point. I agree that some people have money invested in other things besides Apps. I was specifically addressing previous comments that said that people would not want to abandon iOS because of an investment in Apps.

Anyway, you're talking to a guy who doesn't have any special connectors or a case for his iPhone or iPad. So for me, it won't really matter. The thing that drives me nuts is I want to jump into webOS so bad and dump the iPhone and iPad, but Palm's phones suck for me. I hate slide-out keyboards.

[Big Mac]

freudling, do you have some sort of financial interest in talking down iOS? Are you a paid spokesman for one of Apple's competitors? I'm just trying to figure out your angle because you seem like you're posting anti-Apple text commercials here.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

freudling, do you have some sort of financial interest in talking down iOS? Are you a paid spokesman for one of Apple's competitors? I'm just trying to figure out your angle because you seem like you're posting anti-Apple text commercials here.

Or, how about this. I'm someone who loves Apple gear. MacBook Pro, Mac Mini. I've used the iPhone since version 1. So what's happened is I've seen, and go ahead and attack me, very little innovation from Apple in terms of its OS. Ya, ya, I know, they put up an App Store, and made the system 'multi-tasking'. The multi-tasking is really complete bullshxt. And the way the phone works, the operating system itself, is virtually unchanged.

I'm a huge fan of webOS because I want things in my life that make me a) happy b) more productive. webOS, what it can do, is incredible.

You should really watch that HP-Palm video event display if you haven't. I'm being 100% objective. Now I know we've already gotten into this, under the hood stuff... so we'll assume all things being equal there... If anybody watches that video and says that iOS is 'better' than webOS, I think those people are drunk on Apple sauce.

YouTube - HP webOS Think Beyond Event (February 9th, 2011)

[ghporter]

Very interesting. I find I'm sort of "exceptional" in terms of those surveys' results; I have very few paid apps, I use all my paid apps on a regular (often daily) basis, and I've only downloaded/dumped a few apps (free ones, that I gave myself cumulatively over an hour each before dumping them). I have to think that many of the "try and dump" users are just playing and have significant amounts of free time on their hands...no data, just how it looks to me.

As for why survey data is expensive, that's how the people that produce the surveys manage to afford to do it. It's similar to why most technical standards are expensive to get in print or online-producing and maintaining these documents takes people who don't work for free.

[Big Mac]

The thing that I think freudling is missing is (if I am to take him seriously), competition is good. Competition will force Apple to continue to improve its product line, just as it forces Apple's competitors to do the same. Healthy competition is good for all market participants - producers and consumers. Just because you're excited about webOS, its features and future prospects, doesn't mean that we want to hear you constantly denigrate iOS or make outlandish claims about Apple's products suck (hardware or software) and its losing the market. The iPhone, iPod touch and iPad products have been incredibly successful and will most likely continue to be in the future. There's no reason to make up hyperbolic claims about Apple failing when it's nearly the highest valued single corporation on the planet. Apple's doing excellently, and iOS products will continue to do really well in the future because they're very well received by the consumer. Right now, by backing webOS and Windows Phone 777, you are the one backing the also rans that are doing poorly in the market as we see it today. They may have nice features that make you prefer them over iOS, but that doesn't mean they're taking the mobile world by storm (as you seem to think). I hope they don't fail because competition is good (although I really have a difficult time rooting for Microsoft to do well in yet another market), but it's somewhat infuriating for you to insist that Apple has a major problem with the competition because as it stands today that's an absurd lie.

Do you understand the words coming from my keyboard, freudling, or are you just trolling?

[OreoCookie]

@BigMac
I absolutely agree with the sentiment that competition is good. I don't think Apple would have pushed iOS development so hard and made updates available free of charge if it weren't for Android.

Many ideas are `copied' (I don't like to use this word, because it has a negative connotation) to the benefit of the consumer. Everybody wants to offer an app store. Or adapt the concept of multitasking to multitouch devices. Just imagine if the desktop OS market had this type of competition all the way till now. If there still were Atari, Amiga and Apple competing with MS on an equal footing, I'm certain we'd be using easier-to-use and more capable OS.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Very interesting. I find I'm sort of "exceptional" in terms of those surveys' results; I have very few paid apps, I use all my paid apps on a regular (often daily) basis, and I've only downloaded/dumped a few apps (free ones, that I gave myself cumulatively over an hour each before dumping them). I have to think that many of the "try and dump" users are just playing and have significant amounts of free time on their hands...no data, just how it looks to me.

As for why survey data is expensive, that's how the people that produce the surveys manage to afford to do it. It's similar to why most technical standards are expensive to get in print or online-producing and maintaining these documents takes people who don't work for free.

You are exceptional.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The thing that I think freudling is missing is (if I am to take him seriously), competition is good. Competition will force Apple to continue to improve its product line, just as it forces Apple's competitors to do the same. Healthy competition is good for all market participants - producers and consumers. Just because you're excited about webOS, its features and future prospects, doesn't mean that we want to hear you constantly denigrate iOS or make outlandish claims about Apple's products suck (hardware or software) and its losing the market. The iPhone, iPod touch and iPad products have been incredibly successful and will most likely continue to be in the future. There's no reason to make up hyperbolic claims about Apple failing when it's nearly the highest valued single corporation on the planet. Apple's doing excellently, and iOS products will continue to do really well in the future because they're very well received by the consumer. Right now, by backing webOS and Windows Phone 777, you are the one backing the also rans that are doing poorly in the market as we see it today. They may have nice features that make you prefer them over iOS, but that doesn't mean they're taking the mobile world by storm (as you seem to think). I hope they don't fail because competition is good (although I really have a difficult time rooting for Microsoft to do well in yet another market), but it's somewhat infuriating for you to insist that Apple has a major problem with the competition because as it stands today that's an absurd lie.

Do you understand the words coming from my keyboard, freudling, or are you just trolling?

Woh there big fella, this is a load of dribble. Apple failing? Apple's products suck? Absurd lie?

Go for a walk, man.

Anyway, ya, competition is good. It'll force Apple to upgrade its iOS to meet and exceed that competition. I see a trend with Apple. They innovate and create a market, then rest on their laurels, economies of scale, etc., until enough competition comes around that forces them to release better and faster stuff. webOS and WP7, as well as Honeycomb, are the catalyst. But what peeves me is that after some 4 years on the market, iOS is still the same one trick pony it's always been. I just find that brutal.

Apple's been struggling to get out their 4.3 update... what about iOS 5? At this rate, I don't see that coming out until toward the end of this year. So with the likes of webOS around, I'm ready to jump ship over to HP-Palm.

"Good for you freudling!" "Hey freudling, enjoy HP-Palm you loser!" "Hey Apple hater, stick it." I'll still be using my Mac Mini, MacBook Pro, and other stuff by Apple.

[ort888]

What markets have they innovated in and then rested on their laurels?

Touchscreen smartphones? Tablets? Portable music players?

It seems to me that they are pretty aggressively not resting on their laurels in any of these areas. They upgraded the iPod line like crazy through the years, despite being far ahead of the competition. The iPhone has also been upgraded significantly year over year. The iPad is less than a year old.

[Stogieman]

Originally Posted by freudling 

So with the likes of webOS around, I'm ready to jump ship over to HP-Palm.

You just made the little green robot on your Galaxy Tab cry.

So does the TouchPad come with a 7 inch screen? Because I thought you said 10 inch tablets were too heavy and bulky for long periods of use and that 7 inch tablets were the future.

[ort888]

I think freudling is just a "grass is always greener" kind of guy.

It is kind of funny how he seems to have really ruffled so many feathers over here. I don't agree with many of his opinions, but I don't think he's a troll.

Originally Posted by driven 

and a common development platform: Visual Studio & Silverlight.

Which is completely irrelevant to the consumer.

[driven]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

Which is completely irrelevant to the consumer.

I couldn't disagree more strongly.
If you want to build a critical mass of apps, would you rather start with a group of developers already very familiar with the tools and skilled in the language? Or would you rather have them start from scratch with an entirely new framework?

Which approach do you think would get apps to consumers faster?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ort888 

I think freudling is just a "grass is always greener" kind of guy.

It is kind of funny how he seems to have really ruffled so many feathers over here. I don't agree with many of his opinions, but I don't think he's a troll.

I'm not trying to. Reasoned posts with supporting data. I just find it fascinating how people, from what I see on here, can so blindly follow Apple. It takes objectivity out of the picture. Yes, I love Apple. That's why I'm here. But I'm not so blind as to not recognize and acknowledge stuff that is better. That's what I think happens to people with the Apple blinders. Am I naming names here? No. But I have my impressions...

[freudling]

Originally Posted by driven 

I couldn't disagree more strongly.
If you want to build a critical mass of apps, would you rather start with a group of developers already very familiar with the tools and skilled in the language? Or would you rather have them start from scratch with an entirely new framework?

Which approach do you think would get apps to consumers faster?

In the case of webOS, it's HTML 5/CSS3/Javascript. Now that's nothing new.

[ort888]

Walk On The Wild Side Riff Destroyed By HP

Has this poopoo been posted yet?

And I guess this is as good of a place to ask as anywhere... but what the **** is BEATS™ AUDIO? Is that a tangible thing? I'm confused. I thought it was a line of headphones.

[driven]

Originally Posted by freudling 

In the case of webOS, it's HTML 5/CSS3/Javascript. Now that's nothing new.

If what you are telling me is that there is no way to create a native binary on the device, then I'll change my stance and concur with others that the platform is dead.
(I am pretty sure that there is a native SDK)

But the original question was what does Windows Phone 7 and Windows having in common? I'm not even sure that this trip into WebOS development is germane to that question.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by driven 

If what you are telling me is that there is no way to create a native binary on the device, then I'll change my stance and concur with others that the platform is dead.
(I am pretty sure that there is a native SDK)

But the original question was what does Windows Phone 7 and Windows having in common? I'm not even sure that this trip into WebOS development is germane to that question.

Actually, the real, original topic of this thread is Palm's HP tablet. Let's stay on topic.

As for webOS, yes, there is a PDK for webOS 2.0 that allows for C/C++ to be layered into your Apps.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Walk On The Wild Side Riff Destroyed By HP

Has this poopoo been posted yet?

Yeah, that's just either disgusting, or you just don't care. Either way, not the intended result. Whom are they aiming that image film at? Deaf people? Stupid suits?

Originally Posted by ort888 

And I guess this is as good of a place to ask as anywhere... but what the **** is BEATS™ AUDIO? Is that a tangible thing? I'm confused. I thought it was a line of headphones.

Beats Audio is a trademark that signifies utterly bloated bass and ****ed-up, blown out sizzly highs - they make everything sound like hip-hop.

In this case, it means that the D/A stage built into the computers and tablets cost $1.20 rather than $0.80. That's enough to make a significant difference, but probably not "good".

Jimmy Iovine was on stage for the pep rally last week to explain his trademark.

[imitchellg5]

Beats Audio headphones are crap, but, at least on the Envy notebooks, the speakers do sound pretty good for a laptop. I'd say they're easily better than my i3 iMac.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Beats Audio headphones are crap, but, at least on the Envy notebooks, the speakers do sound pretty good for a laptop. I'd say they're easily better than my i3 iMac.

I've never tried Beats Audio to any great extent, although I didn't think it was that bad... but ya, a bit too much bass. As for the crap mono sound on the iPad, really hoping Apple offers stereo sound on iPad 2. Now that to me is a necessary add-on for them, along with a front-facing camera.

[imitchellg5]

Well the Beats headphones really depend on what you're listening to. They do sound great if you're listening to some pop or hip/hop. But if you go outside of that (especially instrumental), they are very lackluster.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Well the Beats headphones really depend on what you're listening to. They do sound great if you're listening to some pop or hip/hop. But if you go outside of that (especially instrumental), they are very lackluster.

Ya, I listen to more instrumental stuff. Besides, I don't want to blow my ears off.

[ghporter]

It looks like they report "reasonable" specs on Beats 'phones. But frequency response doesn't really reflect accuracy with complex waveforms, nor how quickly the driver can shift from one frequency to another. The biggest problem with headphones in general is to get the driver and diaphragm to be flexible enough to get pretty close to accurate but still support enough power to carry the whole signal. With headphones it's a case of try (a lot) before you buy.

"Sizzly" sound indicates a delay in handling highs. It's not really avoidable unless your headphone has multiple drivers like a full-range speaker, but you can filter the whole signal with the headphone equivalent of a crossover network to minimize it. Or not, so you emphasize that effect. Either way, these don't sound like anywhere near everyone's idea of good headphones.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

It looks like they report "reasonable" specs on Beats 'phones. But frequency response doesn't really reflect accuracy with complex waveforms, nor how quickly the driver can shift from one frequency to another. The biggest problem with headphones in general is to get the driver and diaphragm to be flexible enough to get pretty close to accurate but still support enough power to carry the whole signal. With headphones it's a case of try (a lot) before you buy.

"Sizzly" sound indicates a delay in handling highs. It's not really avoidable unless your headphone has multiple drivers like a full-range speaker, but you can filter the whole signal with the headphone equivalent of a crossover network to minimize it. Or not, so you emphasize that effect. Either way, these don't sound like anywhere near everyone's idea of good headphones.

I'm not sure if this is a side conversation... if you didn't pick up on it. HP-Palm has partnered with Beats Audio and has included their sound system in their mobile gear. So their laptops, tablets, etc. will sound 'decent'. No idea how well they will sound, but like I said, the iPad's mono sound is severely lacking. I'm sure they'll add better sound with iPad 2. It's nice to not have to plug in headphones all the time, just sit back and enjoy good sound.

[ghporter]

Yeah, I got that. I guess I should have concluded with "if their headphones are like this I wonder about the overall sound system." On the other hand, if HP just offloaded the responsibility for coming up with audio processing subsystems, there's no telling whether there was a requirement for specifics regarding audio processing. If they just let Beats do their own thing, we could see these devices offer anything from "concert quality" to "worst phone booth sound ever." I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Having not tried to listen to music with an iPad, I can't speak to how it comes across, but in VERY limited applications, my iPhone 3Gs sounds pretty good over its speakers... (Small room/area, no background noise, etc., and probably "just right" music.)