[Timo]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:


My point is that being Jewish in America is a ticket to success...

You get extra consideration for jobs, people are very hesitant to fire you, or not give you timely promotions.

Tons of College Scholarships. If only I were Jewish, I would be in college for free. (I seriously wish I were. College is damn expensive)...

To belabor your misconceptions with actual arguments is a waste of time. But I've got a question for you: if you're so convinced Jews have the best of both worlds, why don't you simply convert?

[denim]

If I may quote your quote...

Originally posted by zigzag:
Erroneous opinions on the Jews are no more illegitimate than any other erroneous opinion. One crosses the line only when you believe that the opinion you hold of another group entitles you to injure or restrict them in some way, such as denying them access to certain professions or passing laws to curtail their civil liberties.

The problem is that it's historically been a very small step from the one side of the line to the other.

Jews have been discriminated against, as a group and as individuals, in a massive way, within living memory. "Never again" means just that. Tell me if you don't follow what I'm saying.

[itai195]

Hmm, the only scholarship I got in college was a cheapie $500 National Merit Scholarship, which I had to earn.... And I don't have a job yet either Don't forget that affirmative action also does not apply to Jews.

Guess that throws macvillage's comments right out the window.

[denim]

Originally posted by Timo:
Um, that's not what you originally wrote. You wrote "to get them to move." I take it you mean by force if not by bribe.

Caught me at it, did you? For the terminally dim, yes I use invalid argument and hyperbole when I feel the need. That "terminally dim" is not aimed at you, Timo.

And I wasn't thinking about Israel. I was thinking about all the folks in the world who take care of their own and tell the rest to go to hell. Such a sentiment is much bigger and much more prevalent than the Israel/Palestine question.

Yes, it's a large part of the reason, as far as I can tell, that much of the world is annoyed at us. We send support, sure, but we don't understand what we're doing before we do so. We pick the wrong "good guy", and it comes back at us later.

The other people will surely retalitate.

Yup. Here's the problem with the obvious solution: Israel tried "turning the other cheek", and it didn't work. Part of it is Israel's fault for not enforcing settlement limitations and allowing illegal "settlements" in arab areas. No argument, yes?

It just strikes me that the arabs take it too far. Even there, it's not my main issue, as that's short term only.

Eventually, through repetition and the fact that people who commit hari kari at a young age don't reproduce, all those who would do so will be gone, leaving people with some brains. So that's a short-term problem.

Long term is the general issue of resentment, discrimination, and out-right hate. Everytime there's a economic downturn, the neo-NAZIs come out of the wood-work. We've got it pretty bad this time, so it's becoming more obvious than it has before.

The problem with this is that, once some memes get too big, they become the "in" thing. This has to be stomped on before it gets to that. Ask the Germans in the 1920s.

[Timo]

Yup. Here's the problem with the obvious solution: Israel tried "turning the other cheek", and it didn't work. Part of it is Israel's fault for not enforcing settlement limitations and allowing illegal "settlements" in arab areas. No argument, yes?

::sigh:: Yes, what's done is done. I would guess that part of the problem was not dealing with refugee populations in and around the new State, but then again, that new State had a lot on its plate at the time, as well as now.

The real question is, what is to be done now? How do you get people to step off the crazy wheel? I wouldn't pretend I know the answers and would never lecture to those who have been scarred by this fighting and these wars. But I would assume that somewhere, somehow, an attitude and stance that includes the word "peace" is going to be more meaningful, more durable and more just than what's on the ground.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Timo:


To belabor your misconceptions with actual arguments is a waste of time. But I've got a question for you: if you're so convinced Jews have the best of both worlds, why don't you simply convert?

Because it doesn't put you on easy street.... or else I would.

Can you become black for scholarship money?

Can I become hispanic?


I wish.

[nonhuman]

But you can become Jewish...

Sadly, last I checked the only special benefit I get is that I was able to get off my school's outrageously priced board plan because they don't support a kosher diet. And I keep real kosher... Mmmmm, bacon cheeseburger.

[Timo]

Bah. Your [that would be Robert's] warped ideas aren't even internally consistent. You stated Jews have it easy in America and then backed off from joining them, starting up now with blacks and other folks. Really.

Now it's on and on about other folks' (supposed) advantages. Sounds to me like you're just lookin' for a scapegoat. Perhaps even for your personal problems...look, my man, you gotta deal with your demons. They're not the boogie-man "out there," they're inside. Do the work.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally posted by bstone:
[B]

One of the reasons why Jews are prevalent in Hollywood is due to the early Yiddish Theaters which sprung up in America around the time of World War II. At this time film in America, while good, wasn't so funny. The Yiddish Theater was based of being funny and making people laugh and cry.

I'm not sure what kind of 'history' this is. Not to pick on you, but I cringed so hard at the inaccuracies in your post I just couldn't let some of the butchered up 'facts' stand.

I think perhaps you're confusing Vaudeville and Yiddish Theatre and also the timeline. Vaudeville was popular in the US in the 1890's through to the rise of classic Hollywood in the 1910's and 20's- not World War II era.

There's no big secret of why Jews controlled and continue to control so much of Hollywood. Its their baby. Hollywood really began in the early 1900's in New York City- Jewish immigrants ran the Nickelodeons and dime arcades in the city. When motion pictures were invented, many of those same merchants put in seats and created theatres, or showed movies in a form of 'peep show' arcade format. It was a business that WASP culture looked down on and wanted nothing to do with.

The films to supply the early theatres, arcades and movie houses were actually made in New Jersey. Jersey is actually the birthplace of Hollywood. It was where the cameras and film came from as well- it was all controlled by Thomas Edison and the Edison trust. People think that organizations like the RIAA are bad today- they have nothing on Edison. He held a complete lock on motion picture equipment, film and production in the U.S. He also sought to lock out the mostly Jewish theatre and arcade owners.

So the Jews decided to make their own movies. To get away from Edison, they packed up their studios and left New Jersey and headed as far west as they could get- California. In those days (1910-1911 era) the distance of an entire continent was enough to keep patent officials and Edison trust people at bay- no such thing as just hopping on a plane and crossing the country in a few hours.

Virtually every single studio was founded and created by Jews, because they were only interested in supplying their own theatres and arcades. Few of them ever imagined that they'd ever do anything more than just supply their own Nickelodeons and little movie houses back on the east coast- but we all know what happened. The medium caught on with mainstream America, and suddenly little tiny Warner Bros. or Paramount, or Metro, or Columbia etc. were in control of a huge media empires with a hot product everybody wanted.

Not only was anti-Semitism not really a major problem for Hollywood itself, the few non-Jewish moguls bitched about being excluded from the party. (And at times for good reason). Disney started out working for others- his first animated series were snatched from him by the Jewish owned management he worked for in the 20's- the creation of Mickey Mouse was in large part a last -chance gamble of his to get out from under their thumb.

There are several other reasons Hollywood remained Jewish dominated beyond just is founding that are intertwined and hard for outsiders to understand. Those same 'dime arcades' and Nickelodeons became movie theatres- and they were still controlled largely by Jews. The Theatres always did run the show. The parent company and the 'unseen' eyes and hands of virtually all the major studios in Hollywood really remained in New York. It does you no good to make movies if you have no place to show them, and those Jewish owned parent companies owned the theatres and so owned the business. An outsider without the connections even if they could make a movie, had little chance of getting it on a big screen anywhere. And forget promotion. The way to promote a movie other than the press- was the movies themselves! There was no TV to show trailers on.

Last, movie production has always been about money and getting it from a traditional source- like a bank. Always has been and always will be. Jewish movie moguls had connections with their friends in the eastern Banking establishment that others didn't. Nuff said.

Traditionally (although it's changing somewhat) unless you were a Howard Huges or Ted Turner- someone with deep, deep pockets of your own to barge your way in with- or an individual like Disney with a bankable track record in the business) you didn't stand a chance in Hollywood outside of the major (Jewish owned) studios. Hence to anyone outside these various loops, it looks like a conspiracy.

Because of built-in anti-Semitism from the then existing Hollywood movie companies, the Jews were forced to make their own companies- MGM being one of the most famous.

Eeesh.
The studio moguls weren't really anti-Semitic against themselves. (Although interestingly there are exceptions to that. Harry Cohn of Columbia is notorious for not liking Jews, though he was one himself. Most of the studio moguls were not religious Jews either, another distinction that's worth noting.

It's a weird paradox of sorts, but once Hollywood moved past being a supplier to little nickel and dime Theatres, movie moguls themselves poo-pooed Jewish subject matter in the films themselves (notable exceptions being movies like Warner Bros. "The Jazz Singer" in 1927). They were more interested in assimilating into 'mainstream' American society than overtly pushing Jewish culture in America. The mogul set has always been about business first- with the actual Jewish religion not even showing up on their radar.

MGM by the way, was a merger between Metro Studios and Samuel Goldwin Studios (and ironically Goldwin had little to do with MGM)run by Louie B. Mayer. It came to being in 1924, from studios that both had a long history of making movies since the 1910's- hardly the 1940's.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by denim:
If I may quote your quote...

The problem is that it's historically been a very small step from the one side of the line to the other.

Jews have been discriminated against, as a group and as individuals, in a massive way, within living memory. "Never again" means just that. Tell me if you don't follow what I'm saying.

Yes, I follow you, and I think my posts (here and in other threads) reflect that I follow you. I'm often arguing on these boards (usually in reference to complaints about "political correctness" and affirmative action) that people far too easily forget the damage done by prejudice. This does not, however, mean that one cannot or should not have forthright discussions about social history, or things that one has seen with one's own eyes, or that one should deny the existence of fundamental aspects of human nature. It's all in how one applies these things. In that respect, we're in complete agreement.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by daimoni:


The 'Jewish race'?!

So... are you trying to tell us that they aren't human?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:


Keep this up and someday I might send you a Windows peecee so you can actually use one before you spout off anti-peecee rhetoric.

Too bad I already have one.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by daimoni:


Zimphie starts by putting his own foot in his mouth.

*searches through thread*

Nope not one foot in mouth incident.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by undotwa:
(Americans haven't felt the need to work since 1778).

Yeah, what OS and computer are you using? Who invented those things?

I find some foreign opinions on us Americans rather humorous.

[MikeM33]

Originally posted by korn:
I rather have Jews producing films then fanatic christians or some obscurly driven sect, like scientology....

I guess you've never heard of John Travolta and/or the movie Battlefield Earth?

MikeM

[bstone]

Originally posted by Millennium:

No sarcasm on this. Frankly, when it comes to the workplace, I couldn't care less what someone's race is as long as they do the job well. Now granted, whether or not Hollywood is getting the job done well anymore is debatable. But I don't see how being Jewish would affect it one way ot the other.

Agreed! Race to me in blind. I may happen to be Jewish but if I were a manager look at potential job applicants, I would keep my eyes closed to the race, creed, religion, sex (and orientation) of any potential applicants.

[Hawkeye_a]

As far as Jews in Hollywood, for the most part their talent is good, or at least improves over time. But how that guy Rob Schneider is still making movies is beyond me. this is one guy that just annoys the hell out of me.... and the fact that his acting sucks dosent help either.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:


Oh great!! Now we'll have to tent the whole country and spend a few weeks in Europe while the fumigators do their thing...

I doubt you meant it in that manner, but the connotation of "infest" is quite negative.

Hey, I'm 'part' Jewish. Of course I didn't mean it that way.

After all, people say 'Happy Holidays' instead of Happy Christmas, because you might be Muslim, Christian or Jewish.

New York City has the largest Jewish population in the world.

[El Pre$idente]

Organized story telling, theatres and cinema halls evolved out of temples. The first organized temples were in Asia. So it makes sense that Asians such as Jews and Hindus play a large part in the global film industry.

If you want to be racist then bring up the WASP societies that still act like a bunch of puritans. Imagine them playing the major part in Hollywood and you'd have one stinker of a film industry.

[denim]

Originally posted by Timo:


::sigh:: Yes, what's done is done. I would guess that part of the problem was not dealing with refugee populations in and around the new State, but then again, that new State had a lot on its plate at the time, as well as now.

True, however these encroachments are recent, and Israel should do something to undo them, as a real gesture of good faith. Remove the illegals and reinstate the previous owner, with some kind of real compensation. That kind of thing.

[Thrax]

Originally posted by denim:
True, however these encroachments are recent, and Israel should do something to undo them, as a real gesture of good faith. Remove the illegals and reinstate the previous owner, with some kind of real compensation. That kind of thing.

Hate to take this thread somewhat off topic, but that shouldn't happen, yet.

Removing the settlements now makes it seem as if Israel is rewarding the Palestinians for terrorism.

Should it happen? Yes, but not until the terrorism stops.

Back on topic: if Jewish people have it so easy, then why am I struggling in the fields of advertising and Web design?

[denim]

Originally posted by Thrax:
Should it happen? Yes, but not until the terrorism stops.

Yes, good point.

[gadster]

Ariel Sharon is doing Aldolph Hitler proud. Gissan likewise Goebbels.

[Thrax]

Originally posted by gadster:
Ariel Sharon is doing Aldolph Hitler proud. Gissan likewise Goebbels.

Sharon is going after terrorists who kill innocent people.

Hitler went after innocent people who were Jewish and/or disagreed with him.

Understand the difference?

[gadster]

Thrax, inside Hitler's Germany, you would have felt just as rightious; or are you saying Germans are fools?

[denim]

Originally posted by gadster:
Thrax, inside Hitler's Germany, you would have felt just as rightious; or are you saying Germans are fools?

Jews weren't going around setting bombs and blowing things up in Germany. Jews weren't setting people's stores on fire, or herding them to ghettos.

Where are Jews doing that now? Yes, I'd agree that WWII-era Germans were fools.

[mac-at-kearsarge]

I didn't read the entire topic, but all I can say is that I would like to refer you all to Adam Snadlers Chaunakah (I apoligize if I misspelled that) Song Versions 1,2, and 3.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Thrax:
Back on topic: if Jewish people have it so easy, then why am I struggling in the fields of advertising and Web design?

Those industries are secretly controlled by a cabal of Tibetan horsemen.

[korn]

Originally posted by MikeM33:


I guess you've never heard of John Travolta and/or the movie Battlefield Earth?

MikeM

I wasn't referring to the peanuts, but rather indicating the increase of influence the scientologists have in the movie industry.

Anyway, thanks Crash HD for the info.

[bstone]

Originally posted by Thrax:


Hate to take this thread somewhat off topic, but that shouldn't happen, yet.

Removing the settlements now makes it seem as if Israel is rewarding the Palestinians for terrorism.

Should it happen? Yes, but not until the terrorism stops.

Back on topic: if Jewish people have it so easy, then why am I struggling in the fields of advertising and Web design?

Consider this- the PLO was formed in 1962. Israel won the "territories" in 1967 in a purely defensive war. The PLO was formed fully 5 years before Israel had any settelments and their doctrine, until this day calls for the complete and total destrction of Israel.

If tomorrow the Palestenians would lay down their weapons and call for peace, they would have their own state in a short matter of time.

If tomorrow the Israelis put down their weapons and call for peace, Israel would cease to exist in two days.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by bstone:


Consider this- the PLO was formed in 1962. Israel won the "territories" in 1967 in a purely defensive war. The PLO was formed fully 5 years before Israel had any settelments and their doctrine, until this day calls for the complete and total destrction of Israel.

If tomorrow the Palestenians would lay down their weapons and call for peace, they would have their own state in a short matter of time.

If tomorrow the Israelis put down their weapons and call for peace, Israel would cease to exist in two days.

How right you are.

The Palestinians are trying to build up hatred on their side. I saw this freaky BBC program on TV, and these kids were on going on about 'When I grow up, I want to be a suicide bomber. I hate the Israelis, I don't know why. They are Jewish. They are evil'

[Oswald Defense Lawyer]

Just as an exercise - can anyone name any hollywood film which hasn't got a jewish name in the credits?

[Atef's corpse]

Originally posted by Oswald Defense Lawyer:
Just as an exercise - can anyone name any hollywood film which hasn't got a jewish name in the credits?

who the hell cares? Your thread has been dead for days.

And have you ever watched the entire movie credits? They have hundreds or thousands of names. Odds are that some are going to be Jews. So what?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Thrax:


Sharon is going after terrorists who kill innocent people.

Hitler went after innocent people who were Jewish and/or disagreed with him.

Understand the difference?

Retaliation... and arrests are very different.

Previous PM's have been very good with this.... but he seems to not see the clear line.

Arresting, trying, and hanging... would be appropriate.

Blowing up an entire neighborhood where someone "might" live... is different.

If he were to blow up the neighborhood of any criminal regardless of ethnic background... that would also change things.

We never see trials... He never makes examples... Just bombs and kills others for revenge..

Setting an example is what needs to be done. He is irritating the bad situation. What he SHOULD be doing is rallying the rest of the world against this problem. He should be insuring that Israel looks as clean as possible. He should be making sure that there is no possible reasoning for what is going on. Then the rest of the world would back Israel much more. Right now it appears that only the US is backing... and that's because the US is blind to the world.

What makes a good leader, what makes a bad leader?

I would say one who uses an approach that works... Obviously, this isn't working... the situation is getting worse... A good leader would move on to a strategy that does work... Considering all the resources he has at his disposal... He should be very accomplished.

He's arrogant. He's set in his ways.

A new, younger Israili will make a big difference. One who sees no point to killing for religious belief... One who lived their entire life in fear of this foolishness.

Militants are militants. They won't change. Politics makes militants madmen.. That happened to Arafat 20 years ago, and Sharon in the past year.

These old dogs will never reach peace.

Sharon needs to lay the groundwork for peace. Until he decides that both groups need to live and work together, it will not work. Segregation just doesn't work. History has proved it over and over... Pre-WWII Europe with Jewish Ghetto's is evidence. The US is evidence. There are millions of examples.. it doesn't work.

Sharon needs to decide for peace. He then needs to ensure that his side acts as angels, ensuring peace, and makes a judicial example out of terrorists on all sides. Once he shows that... the international community will be willing to form a coallition against these terorists.

As long as it is a religous war Jew vs. Muslem... nobody wants to get their hands dirty.

If HE turns it into a People vs. Militant... then the tides change.


People who have nothing to live for are violent. History proves that. If you live in a Ghetto with no chance on any improvement. Your willing to do these crimes.

If he removes the cause... The action won't happen... there wouldn't be a reason.

Think about what it takes for someone to kill themselves... it's not a walk in the park.

There is something seriously wrong going on (both sides).

The ball is in Sharon's court, since he is the one with all the power right now. People are still listening to him. The palestinians don't have a clear leader any more....

SHARON needs to win the support of the Palestinian people... then the militants are isolated.

Then the militants can be defeated.

This is just application of the US War on Terror to Israel...

This is what Colin Powell has attempted to do... win the support of the Arab world... to prove we are against the MILITANTS... NOT THE PEOPLE....

There is a clear line.

It may appear to be working backwards... but it is moving forwards.

Sharon could end this when he wants... but for some reason, he seems to like it just the way it is.... SICKO.

[Anomalous]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:

How clear

My point is that being Jewish in America is a ticket to success...

You get extra consideration for jobs, people are very hesitant to fire you, or not give you timely promotions.

Tons of College Scholarships. If only I were Jewish, I would be in college for free. (I seriously wish I were. College is damn expensive)

I would appreciate if you would refrain from posting this kind of stereotype here. I am Jewish and I am struggling to pay off thousands of dollars in debt from college, and I have been searching for a job for over six months, applying to hundreds of places, without getting any offers at all. Any claim that Jews have it easier than other people is completely false. If anything, we have it harder than others, because of all the prejudiced remarks we face like this one.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by Anomalous:


I would appreciate if you would refrain from posting this kind of stereotype here. I am Jewish and I am struggling to pay off thousands of dollars in debt from college, and I have been searching for a job for over six months, applying to hundreds of places, without getting any offers at all. Any claim that Jews have it easier than other people is completely false. If anything, we have it harder than others, because of all the prejudiced remarks we face like this one.

Perhaps it's you personally, and not an entire group of people....


I merely relayed what my many Jewish friends have said over and over.

[RealityCheck]

I just wanted to touch on the whole Isreali/Palestian conflict, and help sort through the propoganda thrusted out from both sides. I'm pasting this piece from an article at The World, a joint venture of the BBC.

As you can see, there is a lot of reasons why this conflict is so strong, and will continue forever perhaps.

"The World" Special - A Middle East History

Israel is a young country, just 54 years old. Yet it was built on the distant past. Some three millennia ago, the Hebrews invaded the area. They lived there on and off for more than a thousand years until the Romans came and eventually banished most of them. Several groups then settled the region, but for more than a thousand years, Arabs have been the majority. By the mid-19th century, Arabs made up more than 95% of what had come to be called Palestine, Jews less than 3%. That was on the eve of the birth of Zionism, a political movement that advocated a Jewish state in the Holy Land. As Zionism took hold in the capitals of Europe. Jews began emigrating to Palestine, much to the consternation of the Arabs already living there, says Mark Tessler, a historian at the University of Michigan.

Mark Tessler: They felt that this was their territory that whatever the historical involvement of the Jews had been in Biblical times, 2,000 years earlier, that that did not entitle the Jews all of a sudden, the Zionist movement all of a sudden, to begin in the mid and late 19th century to decide that it was time to return to this land and to claim it.

Lord Balfour: British Foreign Secretary who wrote the Balfour Declaration supporting "the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish people."PC: The Zionists scored their first political success in 1917. That's when they persuaded the British, who were taking control of Palestine in First World War, to support a national home for the Jewish people in the region. The Balfour Declaration, as it became known, became the cornerstone of British rule in Palestine. For two decades the British encouraged immigration, and Jews settled in Palestine in increasing numbers.

After World War Two, immigration exploded. Jews fled post-Holocaust Europe by the hundreds of thousands, and with political support from the United States, many headed to Palestine. Unable to keep the peace with such a huge influx of Jewish immigrants, the British reversed their open-door policy, but to little avail. When they finally tried to forcibly prevent more Jews from settling in Palestine, the move backfired.


The illegal immigrant ship, Exodus 1947, entered Haifa harbor under escort. But now she had on board some 5,000 Jews, who'd hoped to enter Palestine illegally. When she was boarded at sea by the Navy, a fierce battle was fought on her decks, resulting in many casualties on both sides.

The British stop the "Exodus 1947" carrying illegal Jewish immigrants.PC: After unloading the dead and injured from the Exodus, the British dispatched the rest of the Jewish immigrants to, of all places, Germany. World public opinion swung against the British and in favor of the Jews. A year later, in 1948, the British quit Palestine for good, leaving it to the newly-formed United Nations to pick up the pieces.

The United Nations endorsed an awkward-looking partition of Palestine that gave the Jews 56% of the territory and the rest to the Palestinians. The Zionists agreed to the establishment of these two new independent nations, but the Palestinians turned it down.

Historian Mark Tessler says, in hindsight, the Palestinians were unwise not to accept the partition.

MT: They would have had a state much earlier on. They would have had much more territory than what has been negotiated until recently. And they would have had it without all of the destruction and the alienation and also without the displacement of Palestinian refugees, so in retrospect they certainly would have been much better off.

PC: Nevertheless, Tessler acknowledges it wasn't surprising that the Palestinians rejected the partition of their land.

MT: The analogy they often used was one of a house. This is the house in which we live and all of a sudden someone who used to live here many many years ago comes and says, "this is really my house but I'm only going to insist upon having the first floor, you continue to live on the second floor." And from the Palestinian point of view that simply was unacceptable.

Timeline - A History of ConflictPC: There were problems from the Zionist point of view too. The Jewish state would be a strange looking nation. Its configuration, nearly divided into three parts by Arab territory, would make it almost impossible to defend. And it would not include Jerusalem: the United Nations would maintain control of that city. Still, the UN resolution offered global recognition of a Jewish state. That's why the Zionists accepted it, and why the Palestinians did not.

MT: The Palestinians went to war against the Zionists to try to prevent the implementation of the resolution. So from the point of view of the Zionists they were attacked and unless they were going to renounce their project of establishing a Jewish state and try to think about some alternative including perhaps leaving the area, they really had no choice but to defend themselves.

PC: The fighting escalated and the Zionists quickly gained the upper hand. Village by village, they pushed Palestinian civilians out of what is now Israel to the West Bank and beyond. In a notorious incident, Zionist militias attacked the Arab village of Deir Yassin just outside Jerusalem, and slaughtered scores of women and children. One Zionist commander called the masacre "barbaric." The Deir Yassin incident mobilized public opinion across the Middle East. Within weeks, five Arab states dispatched their armies to Palestine.

Eastward the Arab legion poised for invasion on the Transjordan border. A rarely photographed King Abdullah reviewed a brigade of reinforcements from Iraq.

PC: In Washington, President Truman, moved by the plight of the Holocaust Jews, supported the Zionists, and encouraged them to declare independence. But Truman's Secretary of State George Marshall was more cautious.

George Marshall: We are in the midst of a very critical situation. We should therefore carefully avoid approaching international problems on an emotional basis.

PC: Marshall didn't want to endanger US ties to Arab states. So two days before the end of the British mandate, with Arab armies amassed at Palestine's borders, he proposed that the Zionists delay their declaration of independence. But in a 6-to-4 vote, the Zionists' provisional state council moved ahead.

An official waves a signed document which proclaims the establishment of the new nation of Israel as Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion watches. (May 1948) (AP)BBC Archive Tape (translated from the Hebrew): Today, the British mandate over the land of Israel ends. We declare a Jewish state in the ancient land of Israel. It will be called the state of Israel. [APPLAUSE]

PC: On May 14th 1948, Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion proclaimed the establishment of what he called the "ancient land of Israel." [APPLAUSE]. A few hours later at the United Nations, the US delegate rose to speak.

US Delegate to UN: This government has been informed that a Jewish state has been proclaimed in Palestine. And recognition has been requested by the provisional government thereof. The United States recognizes the provisional government as the de facto authority in the new state of Israel. [APPLAUSE]

PC: Truman's wishes had prevailed. But the next day, May 15th, the Arab armies invaded Israel. Israeli generals gave their fledgling nation a 50% chance of survival. But a year later Israel had beaten back the Arab armies and won more territory. An estimated 750,000 Palestinians fled their homes and resettled in refugee camps in the Gaza Strip, then controlled by Egypt, and the West Bank, which Jordan had annexed. To this day, says historian Mark Tessler, the exodus of those Palestinians is the subject of hot debate.

The flag of Israel is raised at what is now called Eilat.

(Part 1 of 2)

[RealityCheck]

(Mar 1949)MT: The Palestinian position has been that this was the result of an deliberate campaign of expulsion, with some episodes that we would characterize as terrorist, because they involved attacks on unarmed civilians. The Zionists have a response to that, and it's in part that none of this would have happened if the Arabs had accepted partition and not gone to war. But I would say history has shown this is really research done by Israeli historians that although there isn't any one single cause of why the Palestinians left, deliberate campaigns, sometimes planned, sometimes unplanned on the part of Zionist forces, resulted in the expulsion of Palestinians.

PC: The Israelis called it their War of Independence. For the Palestinians it was, simply, "The Catastrophe." By its end in 1949, Palestine no longer existed, and its people were scattered. In the years after the war, Israel consolidated its land gains and tightened its borders. It also a won friends abroad. But its international reputation suffered in 1953 when, following the murder of a Jewish family living near the Jordan border, an Israeli special force known as Unit 101 crossed into Jordan.

BBC Archive Tape: The tiny village of Qibya on the Israel-Jordan border is in ruins as dazed survivors relate how troops struck across the frontier at night. They accuse Israeli forces of leveling buildings with grenades, shellfire and explosives. The attack prompts the United states, England and France to deliver their sharpest rebuke to Israel since its founding and to demand stern action to punish the guilty troops, as the United Nations launches an investigation of the explosive tensions that walk the border.
History of the Middle East ConflictPC: More than 60 people died in Qibya that night, most of them women and children.

From Qibya to Jenin nearly 50 years later, a similar scenario has played itself out time and again: the murder of Israeli civilians, a counter-attack by Israeli troops that leaves dozens dead and more homeless, and international outcry. There's another link between Qibya and Jenin: the man who lead the attack on Qibya was a young Army major named Ariel Sharon. In 1954, after the UN security council condemned the attack, the Israeli Army disbanded Sharon's Unit 101.

The Qibya attack and other border incidents, though, didn't boil over into war. In fact, though the Middle East was by no means peaceful. It wasn't until 1967 that the two sides would fight an all-out war again.

Taken from http://www.theworld.org/archive/mideast/05202002.htm

[macvillage.net]

As demonstrated in the past, this is a definately going to strike a nerve:

Where is the true capital if Israel?

Tel Aviv
Jerusalem

[vmarks]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
As demonstrated in the past, this is a definately going to strike a nerve:

Where is the true capital if Israel?

Tel Aviv
Jerusalem

This is easy:

First off, you meant to ask, "Where is the true capital of Israel?" not, 'if.' It makes more sense my way.

Second, the true capital of Israel is Jerusalem. The first capital of Israel was Tel-Aviv. The capital was moved to Jerusalem in 1970.

This isn't any different from what happens in the US. In North Carolina, the first state capital was in New Bern. It was later moved to Raleigh.

The US national capital was first in Philadelphia, PA. On June 11, 1800, it was moved to Washington, District of Columbia.

The upshot is, whatever the current capital of a country or state may be, that is the true capital, and that it is not uncommon for states and countries to relocate their capitals over the course of time and circumstance.

[itai195]

Informative post RealityCheck, though I think it does leave out a lot of details. The history of the PLO, for example, is not nearly so innocent as portrayed by the media these days. It was primarily a terrorist organization for the better part of its existence. On another note, while I have no doubt that many innocent Palestinians have been killed in conflicts, I always take their reports of the casualties with a grain of salt. They said there was a massacre at Jenin, when it turned out only around 60 (I think) Palestinians were killed, mostly militants who had opened fire on Israeli ground forces. It's important to realize that both sides are trying desperately to win the propaganda war. I also take issue with the account of the partition plan in your post. Much of the land granted to Israel was either mostly inhabited by Jews (such as the coastal areas including Tel-Aviv) or largely uninhabitable (such as the Neghev desert). Another reason that world opinion turned against the British was that, not only did they move to reduce Jewish immigration to Palestine, they crowded those Jews that did arrive into concentration camps.

So far as the capital debate goes.... To me, Tel-Aviv should be the capital. It's where I was born, it's where I spend the majority of my time when I'm in Israel, and it's the most distinctly Jewish city in the world in my opinion. I'd ultimately like to see Jersualem fall under international jurisdiction and have the capital moved to Tel-Aviv. One other big point for Tel-Aviv is that it is the liberal stronghold in Israel, whereas Jerusalem is largely in control of highly conservative and religious factions. Most countries already have their embassies in Tel-Aviv as well, and it's also the commercial center of Israel.

As far as the Hollywood debate goes -- get a life people. Show me a movie with credits that don't bare the names of Christians, Muslims, etc... Who really cares?

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by itai195:
Informative post RealityCheck, though I think it does leave out a lot of details. The history of the PLO, for example, is not nearly so innocent as portrayed by the media these days. It was primarily a terrorist organization for the better part of its existence. On another note, while I have no doubt that many innocent Palestinians have been killed in conflicts, I always take their reports of the casualties with a grain of salt. They said there was a massacre at Jenin, when it turned out only around 60 (I think) Palestinians were killed, mostly militants who had opened fire on Israeli ground forces. It's important to realize that both sides are trying desperately to win the propaganda war. I also take issue with the account of the partition plan in your post. Much of the land granted to Israel was either mostly inhabited by Jews (such as the coastal areas including Tel-Aviv) or largely uninhabitable (such as the Neghev desert). Another reason that world opinion turned against the British was that, not only did they move to reduce Jewish immigration to Palestine, they crowded those Jews that did arrive into concentration camps.

So far as the capital debate goes.... To me, Tel-Aviv should be the capital. It's where I was born, it's where I spend the majority of my time when I'm in Israel, and it's the most distinctly Jewish city in the world in my opinion. I'd ultimately like to see Jersualem fall under international jurisdiction and have the capital moved to Tel-Aviv. One other big point for Tel-Aviv is that it is the liberal stronghold in Israel, whereas Jerusalem is largely in control of highly conservative and religious factions. Most countries already have their embassies in Tel-Aviv as well, and it's also the commercial center of Israel.

As far as the Hollywood debate goes -- get a life people. Show me a movie with credits that don't bare the names of Christians, Muslims, etc... Who really cares?

Many really awesome points here.

A key to the war ending is Jerusalem falling into international juristiction.

Israel needs to realize that it won't be able to wipe Arabs or other races/religions off the planet. Israel needs to learn that despite how it looks towards the western world, it's part of the middle-east... and needs to work with it's neighbors as well. It needs to become part of that community as well....

What they need to start doing is trying to figure out how to live peacefully together...

Until then the only other way for peace is for the US to send one Peacemaker:


Peace does not come without a disire...

Until the government has that desire it won't happen.

I think the people have been there for some time...

But the government clearly isn't.

Hopefully the next generation to rule will realize that they lived so much of their life in unnecessary fear... and will preven their children from the same fate.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by RealityCheck:

PC: The Israelis called it their War of Independence. For the Palestinians it was, simply, "The Catastrophe." By its end in 1949, Palestine no longer existed, and its people were scattered.

From my understanding there was never a Palestinian nation only an area under the Ottoman Empire and then Bristish rule. The idea that Palestinians 'lost' a country isn't accurate. As for being 'scattered', what about Jordan?

I'm no expert on the region. Clarification anyone?

[OreoCookie]

Well, for one, we have to accept the facts that a lot of influential people in the entertainment industry are Jewish.

Second of all, so what?
What are the consequences? Pro-Israel propaganda?

Thanks to the web, there are a lot of alternative sources for information. Helps to put things to perspective and forming an own opinion.

IMHO it is just another old-boy's network, nothing better or worse than there is in other branches of the industry.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by vmpaul:


From my understanding there was never a Palestinian nation only an area under the Ottoman Empire and then Bristish rule. The idea that Palestinians 'lost' a country isn't accurate. As for being 'scattered', what about Jordan?

I'm no expert on the region. Clarification anyone?

Depends how you look at it.


The west never recognized anything in that region, or Africa as a country.

The land was open and free to be claimed.


So according to the west, there never was anything there. Just people living on unowned land.

Britain got there first and claimed it...

gave it up as Israel...

Therefore, no Palestine.


But the people who lived there before, called it there home, and felt they were a country. Hence Palestine.


The question becomes: What is a country?


One recognized by Britain?

One recognized by the entire world?

An area of land ruled by one government?



The reason there is so many problem in Africa is also related... those countries weren't decided by the people.. Europians made them...

Africa, by geographic reason, is nomadic... Certain places are livable at certain times... people moved as large clans around...


Europians occupied, and made lines, claiming it as their own... The lines put enemy clans together, and broke same clans up....

When they left, they called each region a country.

problem is... they aren't a country... these people physically can't live in a particular place due to geographic conditions....

and they are of different cultures....


So are they truly countries? Were they?




Really is a good debate... what makes a country?


Was Afganistan a country during Taliban Rule?


Chechnya? What will it take? Russia recognizing it as it's own? Other countries? How many? The UN?


Also note the UN's creation date, and the Israeli/Palestinian situation. It's disputed that the UN must declare it a nation for it to be really a nation... though there are many former countries, that were countries before WWI, before the UN...)


Cool debate!

Doubt there is a clear answer... depends who you ask.

What's a country?

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by vmpaul:


From my understanding there was never a Palestinian nation only an area under the Ottoman Empire and then Bristish rule. The idea that Palestinians 'lost' a country isn't accurate. As for being 'scattered', what about Jordan?

I'm no expert on the region. Clarification anyone?

Kind of reminds me of Poland. They weren't sovereign for the longest time. Always a playball of history. Germany once reached out far further east. After WWII, the allies (having the interests of the Soviet Union in mind), they simply �shifted' Poland westwards to the expense of the Eastern territories of Poland.

But still, there were always Polish people and they of course have a right for their own state. So do the Palestinians. They only have nowhere to be shifted so to speak. Without accepting that fact, there will never be peace.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:


Kind of reminds me of Poland. They weren't sovereign for the longest time. Always a playball of history. Germany once reached out far further east. After WWII, the allies (having the interests of the Soviet Union in mind), they simply �shifted' Poland westwards to the expense of the Eastern territories of Poland.

But still, there were always Polish people and they of course have a right for their own state. So do the Palestinians. They only have nowhere to be shifted so to speak. Without accepting that fact, there will never be peace.

THAT'S THE EXAMPLE I WAS THINKING OF!!!!!!!

(i knew it was someone in eastern europe, well pretty east, but I couldn't remember for the life of me ) Remember learning about that in history class back in the day....

True... There were always polish people. But the country is another story.

Until the Middle-East learns that they need to live with people of different faiths, and backgrounds, there will never be peace.

Someone has to "be the better man"

I always though it would be Israel, since they unfortunately learned that cruelty based on religous beliefs is just plain wrong.

I thought that if anything, Israel would be the example, considering may there are surviors of holocaust. Many there were persecuted because of there background.

You would think they would be the absolute last to show any sort of agression based on religion or background.


It's silly... the whole damn thing is silly.


They fight over nothing.

Both sides are full of just a bunch of people who want to work, and raise families and live homes they worked to pay for.

Then there are the politicians who rule over, and decide that death is better than living together.


Silly.

[Mac Zealot]

It just so happens to be that people in that religious group are usually the most popular, richest, and most cunning people in the world.

[Jadey]

The Jewish culture has a very strong work ethic. A lot of them work hard and they get ahead. People seem to unfairly resent people who have succeeded, whether those people got there deservingly or not. Why are there so many computer programmers from India? Their culture is seeped in mathematics, it's how they're raised.

I've noticed people who resent those who have succeeded are often lazy and unmotivated. Perhaps you should spend less time thinking up conspiracies and more time bettering yourself.

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:

Until the Middle-East learns that they need to live with people of different faiths, and backgrounds, there will never be peace.

Someone has to "be the better man"

I always though it would be Israel, since they unfortunately learned that cruelty based on religous beliefs is just plain wrong.

I thought that if anything, Israel would be the example, considering may there are surviors of holocaust. Many there were persecuted because of there background.

You would think they would be the absolute last to show any sort of agression based on religion or background.

Well, you have to admit, and I don't mean to take sides here, Jews have a number of reasons to feel paranoid about their survival.

They have had a number of attempts to remove their race from the face of the earth.

Not to justify current or recent transgressions, there is enough blame to go around to the whole world, but you can't blame them for having a bit of a persecution complex.