[BadKosh]

So the democrat state senators have left the state instead of voting/discussing the cuts in state employee entitlements/pensions/tenure etc. Seems the police were sent to bring them back so they skipped out of the state. The union slacks are more interested in them$elve$ than the high sounding words they speak when telling everyone that will listen what a great job union teachers are doing. This while US kids are about last in the industrial world in education.


Unions want to overturn election result - JSOnline

Senate Democrats boycott Thursday vote on Walker's budget plan - JSOnline

[Chongo]

In 2003, The dems did this in Texas to prevent a quorum. They were voting on a redistricting. plan.
Texas House paralyzed by Democratic walkout - CNN

[olePigeon]

I don't agree with the legislators, but I do agree with the teachers. A Masters Degree just so you can work 60 to 70 hours a week for only $37,000 year, and then the state cuts their budget, fires half of them, and doubles their class sizes. I wonder why they're striking.

Only 2% of my districts operating costs are covered by the State because the only thing Democrats and Republicans can agree on is not funding our schools.

[Lint Police]

A comment on JSOnline about sums it up. Fire them all, and hire more like this teacher.

The Raven - Feb 17, 2011 3:42 PM»
When I graduated from the UW a few decades ago I negotiated my own pay and benefits with the school that hired me to teach. I was able to do that successfully at just 22 years of age, without the aid of union goons to hold parents and communities hostage to collective bargaining agreements and threats of strikes, walk-outs, and/or sick-outs.

Millions of Americans negotiate their own pay, benefits, and promotion criteria with employers all across the country, every year. Doctors do it, used car salesmen do it, and even the guys who clean fish at the docks do it. I fail to understand why anyone with a college degree is unable to quantify and argue their own merits. And any teacher that believes they're not up to such a relatively minor challenge has no place teaching students in the classroom.

[BadKosh]

Its not just the union teachers, but all the state union employees. Collective bargaining costs too much. You would think these people would care, but they don't.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Lint Police 

A comment on JSOnline about sums it up. Fire them all, and hire more like this teacher.

Then all the schools would close down.

What you and this 22-year-old teacher are missing is that, unlike fishermen, public schools aren't a business. They aren't producing a product to sell. They have a fixed budget, set by City, County, and State legislature for which the residents vote. The school can't just come up with a new product and make a ton of money, or advertise in a local paper to get more clients so they can hire more people or pay them more.

Schools have fixed salaries and step progression because it's predictable, and they can figure those numbers into their already underfunded budget.

[Lint Police]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Then all the schools would close down.

What you and this 22-year-old teacher are missing is that, unlike fishermen, public schools aren't a business. They aren't producing a product to sell. They have a fixed budget, set by City, County, and State legislature for which the residents vote. The school can't just come up with a new product and make a ton of money, or advertise in a local paper to get more clients so they can hire more people or pay them more.

Schools have fixed salaries and step progression because it's predictable, and they can figure those numbers into their already underfunded budget.

Umm, he was 22 a few decades ago.

Again, the state employees in WI are in the wrong. period.

http://maciverinstitute.com/wp-conte...ions-Final.pdf

[Laminar]

LOL!

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I don't agree with the legislators, but I do agree with the teachers. A Masters Degree just so you can work 60 to 70 hours a week for only $37,000 year, and then the state cuts their budget, fires half of them, and doubles their class sizes. I wonder why they're striking.

Only 2% of my districts operating costs are covered by the State because the only thing Democrats and Republicans can agree on is not funding our schools.

In AZ, you can get hired with a Bachelors degree. You have to continue your education and get your Masters degree. I don't know what the time frame to complete your post graduate work is.

[Lint Police]

Maybe these administrators would gladly "share the wealth" with their fellow state workers. It wouldn't hurt to ask.

Michelle Malkin � Watch Wisconsin, Part IV: Salary info Big Labor doesn’t want you to see; statewide strike looms

[sek929]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

them$elve$

Genius, pure genius.

[Laminar]

[BadKosh]

Perhaps the unions can just pay the insurance increases for all those teachers out of the bucks they get from the interfering political hacks in the DNC?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmi...s.html?showall

[BadKosh]

Now the monkey president is tampering in state politics on the side of the lawbreakers. What kind of teacher would call in sick to go protest. The unions should be disfranchised in that state. Perhaps the idiot union members will better enjoy 15 percent of them being terminated. Even with the cuts the Gov is proposing they still are being paid well and have almost all their health insurance paid for by the taxpayers.

DNC playing role in Wisconsin protests - Ben Smith - POLITICO.com

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Lint Police 

Umm, he was 22 a few decades ago.

And he still hasn't figured it out?

Originally Posted by Lint Police 

Again, the state employees in WI are in the wrong. period.

You need to understand that generally when something is given up, you never get it back. This is doubly true when it comes to benefits. I'm not saying there isn't room to make cuts, but it isn't as black & white as you like to make it out to be.

Also keep in mind that, should a district not be able maintain solvency, local governing boards can always enact an emergency vote and make decisions without the union. Whatever they say goes, union can't do anything about it.

So painting this picture of the unions being drunk with power is not accurate at all. Saying they don't care when their jobs are on the line is also equally ridiculous.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Then all the schools would close down.

Because all teachers are idiots that depend on the union teats and skills ?

You are probably right about that

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

You need to understand that generally when something is given up, you never get it back. This is doubly true when it comes to benefits.

WRONG.

Millions of Americans employed in private companies had temporary cuts made to benefits and salaries during the last recession (me included). Most of them got it back later on.

Methinks that the unions and its employees need to learn a lesson about cuts.

-t

[stumblinmike]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Most of them got it back later on.

-t

Source, please...

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Because all teachers are idiots that depend on the union teats and skills ?

Like I said before, a school isn't a business. They have a fixed budget. You can not have a dynamic, competitive salary system with a fixed budget and no room to grow.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

WRONG.

Millions of Americans employed in private companies had temporary cuts made to benefits and salaries during the last recession (me included). Most of them got it back later on.

For the third time, schools are not private companies. They do not have stocks. They do not manufacture products. They do not have huge patent portfolios and collect royalties. They do not grow without the consent of the voters who routinely decide to vote not to pay taxes to support their public schools.

When benefits are cut, they're cut. It is extremely difficult to reacquire those benefits in public education because insurance companies do not make nearly as much money as they can off private companies. It is a multi-year battle for insurance companies to make even the slightest positive concessions.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Methinks that the unions and its employees need to learn a lesson about cuts.

Did you just ignore the past 4 years, or what?

[OAW]

It's my understanding that this situation in Wisconsin isn't really about the pay cuts/freezes or higher employee contributions for healthcare, etc. that the public workers are being asked to make. Those types of concessions have been going on for years. What seems to have the people in an uproar is the governor is trying to strip the them of their collective bargaining rights. This is a really big deal because wage and benefit concessions can be obtained without such a drastic and far-reaching step. IOW ... it seems like the governor is using the situation as an excuse to do a little union busting in the public sector. Oh but wait ... it appears that the "budget crisis" itself has been manufactured just for this purpose:

Wisconsin needs to be fiscally responsible.

There is no question that these are tough times, and they may require tough choices.

But Gov. Scott Walker is not making tough choices. He is making political choices, and they are designed not to balance budgets but to improve his political position and that of his party.

It is for this reason that the governor claims Wisconsin is in such deep financial trouble that Wisconsinites should view this as a crisis moment.

In fact, like just about every other state in the country, Wisconsin is managing in a weak economy. The difference is that Wisconsin is managing better -- or at least it had been managing better until Walker took over. Despite shortfalls in revenue following the economic downturn that hit its peak with the Bush-era stock market collapse, the state has balanced budgets, maintained basic services and high-quality schools, and kept employment and business development steadier than the rest of the country. It has managed so well, in fact, that the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus.

In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.

The Fiscal Bureau memo -- which readers can access at http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/...os&Darling.pdf -- makes it clear that Walker did not inherit a budget that required a repair bill.

The facts are not debatable.

Walker gins up ‘crisis’ to reward cronies



OAW

[olePigeon]

The other reason they went on strike is because Governor Walker refused to meet with Union officials to negotiate cuts in benefits, salaries, etc. It's kind of hard to make reasonable concessions when one side refuses to even come to the table.

[BadKosh]

Just lay off about 20 percent of the teachers and make them work later in the school year to make up for their stupidity.

[Laminar]

Brilliant. BadK0sh for president.

[smacintush]

I don't think they got the memo on how we are allowed to behave now:



Good thing these aren't right-wingers because then such imagery would be dangerous.

[el chupacabra]

… .

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

For the third time, schools are not private companies.

...

When benefits are cut, they're cut. It is extremely difficult to reacquire those benefits in public education because insurance companies do not make nearly as much money as they can off private companies.

I don't buy it. None of that is a valid excuse / point.
Schools were perfectly capable in the last ten years to grow salaries and pensions at a much higher rate than private companies. Look at teacher's pensions ? WTF ?

I don't feel one bit sorry about overpaid, entitled teachers that are backed by unions to prevent from making performance count.
It's a fact: the government pension system is a broke mess. It needs to be reformed and cut.
http://downloads.pewcenteronthestate..._Gap_final.pdf

How did this happen ? Handing out easy money to union-backed (i.e. vocal) groups.


� The U.S. Economy Needs Fewer Public School Jobs, Not More - Big Government

-t

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by OAW 

It's my understanding that this situation in Wisconsin isn't really about the pay cuts/freezes or higher employee contributions for healthcare, etc. that the public workers are being asked to make. Those types of concessions have been going on for years. What seems to have the people in an uproar is the governor is trying to strip the them of their collective bargaining rights. This is a really big deal because wage and benefit concessions can be obtained without such a drastic and far-reaching step. IOW ... it seems like the governor is using the situation as an excuse to do a little union busting in the public sector.

You're right, this situation is all about a philosophical objection to unionization for public workers. Well, maybe: the Governor is not asking to strip the Police and Firefighters' unions of their bargaining rights, probably because they vote Republican.

But as I do more reading on the subject, I understand the objections to public-sector unionization. In private sector unions, the workers bargain collectively with company. The Collective Bargaining process is important, because employees and management are two separate groups, and the process is the most efficient way to get a broad agreement on both sides, which makes the company more efficient and delivers more value to the shareholders.

But public employee unions are different: they bargain collectively with the Government, and the Government is run by people who are elected by the public. So, the union members actually have a partial say in the composition of their management (or, at least, the people who set up the budgets). In areas where union membership is strong (and public and private employee unions have common political aims), it is possible for public union members to effectively elect politicians with direct influence over their management. And one would presume these politicians would look to reward the support that got them into office, without regard for the benefit of the shareholders (the rest of the voters). I'm not convinced I agree, but the case can be made that public employee unions are anti-democratic because it manufactures a conflict of interest on the part of politicians. (But again, if that really was the motivation in Wisconsin, the Police and Firefighters' unions would be on the hook, too.)

A side note: as I wrote this, it occurred to me that the closest parallel to a public employee union described in this fashion is a union at a private company where the union is also a major shareholder -- which is what GM turned into. It will be interesting to see how that turns out.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I don't think they got the memo on how we are allowed to behave now:



Good thing these aren't right-wingers because then such imagery would be dangerous.

I'll repeat my theory on this: The Left is allowed to make signs like that because we know they don't have any real guns, and wouldn't know how to use them if they did. They (generally) don't get violent unless the environment or a (cute) animal is at risk.

This guy better watch out, though, because I suspect all five Liberals who know how to use guns are in Alabama.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

I'll repeat my theory on this: The Left is allowed to make signs like that because we know they don't have any real guns, and wouldn't know how to use them if they did. They (generally) don't get violent unless the environment or a (cute) animal is at risk.

This guy better watch out, though, because I suspect all five Liberals who know how to use guns are in Alabama.

Say it with me: PEAR-OH-DEE

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

So the democrat state senators have left the state instead of voting/discussing the cuts in state employee entitlements/pensions/tenure etc. Seems the police were sent to bring them back so they skipped out of the state. The union slacks are more interested in them$elve$ than the high sounding words they speak when telling everyone that will listen what a great job union teachers are doing. This while US kids are about last in the industrial world in education.


Unions want to overturn election result - JSOnline

Senate Democrats boycott Thursday vote on Walker's budget plan - JSOnline

Yeah, buddy, blame the teachers. It's not as if state and federal governments have been imposing their schemes on public education in this country without listening to teachers--nah, it's totally the teachers' fault that education is the way it is.

Gosh, if only there was an example of a national school system that had gotten it right that the US could look to as a model...hmmm, wait! Isn't Finland always at the top of those comparisons of school systems? I wonder what they did to make their system so good...

Oh, yeah, they elevated teachers' status with more pay, better standards for teacher education, more time for planning and local curriculum planning.

[Wiskedjak]

Solution: Privatize the education system and cut taxes by the amount that goes into the public education system.

Oh, and watch education costs skyrocket as schools begin to have to compete for top educators and as those educators begin to negotiate their salaries. Right now we get them at a bargain.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Oh, yeah, they elevated teachers' status with more pay, better standards for teacher education, more time for planning and local curriculum planning.

Yeah, because throwing more money at the problem has worked so wonderfully in the United States. When in doubt, just pay more for a marginal government system of education!

Wait a second, I think we spend far more than Finland does. Can't just be money then.

These unions are acting as criminal enterprises and should be prosecuted as such. Even Socialist FDR said that public employees should never be allowed to unionize.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Yeah, because throwing more money at the problem has worked so wonderfully in the United States. When in doubt, just pay more for a marginal government system of education!

Wait a second, I think we spend far more than Finland does. Can't just be money then.

These unions are acting as criminal enterprises and should be prosecuted as such. Even Socialist FDR said that public employees should never be allowed to unionize.

Maybe we should pay attention to where the money goes, then, eh?

Professionalize teaching by raising standards and pay--cut the rest if you want. Like the millions of dollars we spend on printing and scoring tests.

[OldManMac]

What's going on in Wisconsin, and coming soon to a neighborhood near you. Anyone who thinks this about conservative principles, and not the total take over of America by a select few, hasn't been paying attention.

Exposing the Republicans' 3-Part Strategy to Tear the Middle Class Apart -- Let's Stop Them in Wisconsin | Economy | AlterNet

What Conservatives Really Want | Common Dreams

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Solution: Privatize the education system and cut taxes by the amount that goes into the public education system.

Oh, and watch education costs skyrocket as schools begin to have to compete for top educators and as those educators begin to negotiate their salaries. Right now we get them at a bargain.

Not at all.

You might get a few at a bargain, but most teachers earn much more than they are worth.
In a competitive system, you will definitely get more bang for the buck.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

What Conservatives Really Want | Common Dreams

Wow, what a load of

-t

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Not at all.

You might get a few at a bargain, but most teachers earn much more than they are worth.

Wow. Do you buy Chinese products for inflated prices?

In a competitive system, you will definitely get more bang for the buck.

-t

This isn't about how effective teachers are. It's about the right's continued assault on education. If you keep people stupid, you can create robots, and you effectively have no competition. This country is racing to the bottom common denominator.

[screener]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I don't think they got the memo on how we are allowed to behave now:



Good thing these aren't right-wingers because then such imagery would be dangerous.

It is, right back at ya.

[screener]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

If you keep people stupid, you can create robots, and you effectively have no competition. This country is racing to the bottom common denominator.

Republican voters prove it.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Wow, what a load of

-t

Of course you would think so. Wait until your employer tells you that your benefits are eliminated, and you should be thankful that you have a job at $10/hr.

[screener]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Of course you would think so. Wait until your employer tells you that your benefits are eliminated, and you should be thankful that you have a job at $10/hr.

No worries, he lives in his parents basement and raids their fridge.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Of course you would think so. Wait until your employer tells you that your benefits are eliminated, and you should be thankful that you have a job at $10/hr.

Exaggerate much ? Am I supposed to take you seriously ?

-t

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

This isn't about how effective teachers are.

Right, that's the problem. While we spend more per student than any other industrialized country on the planet, we rank 9th in math and 11th in science to show for it. It's about time this was about how effective teachers are. Apparently bloated pensions, meager contributions to their health care expenses, and guaranteed employment in spite of poor performance is serving only to reward mediocrity and bankrupt states.

It's time to stop hiding behind the collective and stand on your own merits like everyone else.

[Big Mac]

There's a lot of demagoguery on this issue. The teachers unions are corrupt and there are many failing government schools, but if we ignore the student side of the equation we miss some very important aspects of the debate. We rank right around the European countries in test scores according to the Time magazine graphs I just saw in a doctor's office (not exactly conservative publication). As I think Kerrigan pointed out, there's also an ethnic gap in attainment with white students in isolation ranking even better. We're a multi-cultural, heterogeneous society with ethnic minorities making up an increasingly large part of the population. Some of those ethnicities by in large don't value education that highly (i.e. Hispanics). Such demographic facts will have real impacts on aggregate educational statistics. Obviously people don't like to talk about such issues because the politically correct thugs will come out to call them racists, but the facts will still be there.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Now the monkey president is tampering in state politics on the side of the lawbreakers.

/adds another to the bloating ignore list.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Exaggerate much ? Am I supposed to take you seriously ?

-t

It isn't much of an exaggeration. America's landscape is dotted with empty homes of people who have lost their jobs, and when (or if) they find new ones, they're often at a vastly reduced rate, even if they're doing the same work or position. We have the most underemployed population since the Depression, yet corporate profits are at an all time high. So much for trickle down economics.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I don't buy it. None of that is a valid excuse / point.

I really wasn't expecting you to.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Schools were perfectly capable in the last ten years to grow salaries and pensions at a much higher rate than private companies. Look at teacher's pensions ? WTF ?

The teachers agreed to all the cuts by the governor. Again, for the umpteenth time, schools are not businesses.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I don't feel one bit sorry about overpaid, entitled teachers that are backed by unions to prevent from making performance count.

A masters degree and making only $40,000 a year and you think they're overpaid. Right. When you start quoting those $100k figures (which include pension, retirement, etc.), salaries at that level are after working for twenty years. Someone dedicated twenty years of their life teaching your children. Had they been working at a private company, they'd be making twice that or more with that amount of education, experience, and dedication to a single company.

Those also aren't entitlements, they're benefits. Benefits were negotiated in a two-way agreement. When the state is doing well, they tend to agree to provide more for their teachers. When they're not doing so well, they cut them.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

It's a fact: the government pension system is a broke mess. It needs to be reformed and cut.

The workers in Wisconsin agreed to every single one of the Governor's cuts except the loss of collective bargaining. They're not striking because they want more money, they're striking because they don't want to lose the only edge they have in ensuring public service jobs don't end up as minimum wage positions for people with advanced skills and college degrees.

Originally Posted by turtle777 

How did this happen ? Handing out easy money to union-backed (i.e. vocal) groups.

Had Governor Walker not given into lobbyists, the state of Wisconsin would have a surplus.

The graph you're showing is cost per pupil. What that article conveniently forgets to mention is that costs have skyrocketed for educating our children not just because teachers are being paid more, but largely because of educating immigrants (illegal or otherwise) with no basic skills to advance in a public school.

To give you an example: California spends nearly $11 billion a year on education for illegal immigrants alone, not to mention legal immigrants. That means more teacher, more staff, and more aides to support curriculum and general school services for students and/or parents who don't speak a word of English. There are also Federal ADA requirements, requirements we didn't have 40 years ago (much less 10.) Federal and State Government requires support for students with special needs, but only $1 is provided for every $2 needed to support those students.

The article also doesn't differentiate charter schools. Charter schools are public schools that are not apart of the union. The teachers there are payed on average 50% more than union based schools. They have all the resources without any of the financial responsibilities. As extensions of the public school system, the regular public schools pick up all the operating costs of the charter school; that means property taxes, rent, insurance, etc. plus $5800 per student per year. The public school does not receive Federal or State funding for students attending the charter school, but still has to pay for them.

Conservatives thought charter schools were such a great idea because they wouldn't be held to union practices, and now you pay twice as much for the same education. Good job.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

In a competitive system, you will definitely get more bang for the buck.

So how does the competitive system work for inner city schools versus high income schools? How does it work for teachers working at finishing schools? How does it work for teachers working with special education students?

How does it work with a fixed budget? If you have $200,000 a year budget, no more, every year, to pay your required 10 employees, how does a competitive system work with that? You have to have 10 employees. Are you just going to pay one of them $100,000, then tell the others tough shit?

[OAW]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The workers in Wisconsin agreed to every single one of the Governor's cuts except the loss of collective bargaining. They're not striking because they want more money, they're striking because they don't want to lose the only edge they have in ensuring public service jobs don't end up as minimum wage positions for people with advanced skills and college degrees.

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Had Governor Walker not given into lobbyists, the state of Wisconsin would have a surplus.

Both of these points bear repeating. The people protesting have already agreed to financial cuts in their benefits. But the good governor apparently refuses to take yes for an answer. As I said earlier ... the goal here is to bust the public workers unions ... except for the ones that tend to vote Republican that is.

OAW

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Solution: Privatize the education system and cut taxes by the amount that goes into the public education system.

Oh, and watch education costs skyrocket as schools begin to have to compete for top educators and as those educators begin to negotiate their salaries. Right now we get them at a bargain.

Hardly.

There'd be so many unemployed teachers that we'd be begging for jobs, since we would have regressed as a society to the good old days when only the wealthy got educated.

Right-wing propaganda has convinced a lot of working folks that they don't need fancy education and its prospects for social advancement. Heck, their kids would only learn troublesome facts like the Founding Fathers didn't end slavery and that slavery really was a gross evil blight upon civilization. Next thing you'd know, Jesus would be crying because their young-ins would believe they were monkey spawn. Can't have any of that! Government can't be trusted to educate the populace. Hell, it can't be trusted to do anything except write really big checks to defense contractors and write laws making it easier for businesses to ship jobs overseas. I don't what "cap n' trade" means, but I know Fox News told me to reject it and by golly, that Glenn Beck is the best history teacher I've ever had so I'm with him all the way!

Okay, sorry, I got a little carried away there. I'm kind of seeing the appeal, though. It was fun to get that nutty.