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Iraq: From Quagmire to Civil War, and...
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mr. natural
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Jul 25, 2005, 04:46 PM
 
...the winner is Iran.

In case anyone is interested, it now seems clear that Iraq is spiraling toward sectarian civil war.

The "insurgents" (comprised of the minority Sunni Iraqis of the deposed Baathist regime) and suicide bombers (a lot of them Saudi Arabians) are targeting their avowed enemy, the majority Shiites, as in the gas tanker attack next to a Shiite mosque, and moderate Sunnis as well, as in the double slaying in broad daylight of two Sunnis who were partaking in the Constitutional drafting process.

The Shiite leadership has for the most part called on their followers to refrain from counter-attacking, but there are numerous and growing retaliatory killings of Sunnis, mostly by the Badr Brigade or shi'a death squads in police uniforms.

The Bush administration likes to tout how we are doing in building an Iraqi military force that will take over from US forces and tosses figures about meant to sound impressive, such as "the Iraqi forces had been given 306 million rounds of ammunition, roughly 12 bullets for each of Iraq's 25 million people. But when one senior American officer involved was asked whether the Americans might end up arming the Iraqis for a civil war, he paused for a moment, then nodded. 'Maybe.' he said." (emphasis mine, link above.)

Furthermore, the best trained units of the Iraqi military are comprised mainly of para-military wings of Shiites and Kurds, both of whom have no abiding love for the Sunnis, nor the Sunnis for such government military/police forces.

Baghdad is paralysed, and the "US army and Iraqi government positions in Baghdad are surrounded by ramparts of enormous cement blocks that snake through the city. Manufactured in different sizes, each is named after an American state, such as Arkansas and Wisconsin. These concrete megaliths are strangling the city by closing off many streets."

(think of the "brick" smilie here)

As for the "reconstruction" charade, people are executed for no known reason by patrolling military commandos, members of government don't leave the Green Zone, and what little central government there is "make bizarre efforts to pretend that there are signs of normality. Last week a pro-government newspaper had an article on the reconstruction of Baghdad. Above the article was a picture of a crane at a building site. But there are no cranes at work in Baghdad, so the paper was compelled to use a photograph of a crane that had been rusting for more than two years and was abandoned at the site of a giant mosque Saddam Hussein was constructing."

Despite the efforts of the US to quash the insurgency, and counter to all the propaganda that it is in its last throes, they just keep getting stronger.

The reality in Iraq is that Bush has unleashed an Iraqi Pandora's box, and his illusionary Peace, Freedom and Democracy crusade is toast. Worse, there is no clean and safe exit strategy. That we will one day, sooner than later, start removing troops is certain. What is less certain is what sort of mess we leave behind.

From John Burns' NYTimes article (1st link above):
Some senior officers have said privately that there is a chance that the pullback will be ordered regardless of what is happening in the war, and that the rationale will be that Iraq - its politicians and its warriors - will ultimately have to find ways of overcoming their divides on their own.
America, these officers seem to be saying, can do only so much, and if Iraqis are hellbent on settling matters violently - at the worst, by civil war - that, in the end, would be their sovereign choice.
As to a winner in this tragedy of choice where Iraq is concerned, I think both Peter W. Galbraith, in this article, and Juan Coles in this one spell it out pretty well. The winner in this US made catastrophe is Iran.

From Galbraith's article:
Through its spies, infiltrators, and sympathizers, Iran has a presence in Iraq's security forces and military. It is virtually certain that Iran has access to any intelligence that the Iraqis have... When I asked an Iraqi with major intelligence responsibilities about foreign infiltration into Iraq, he dismissed the influx from Syria (the focus of the Bush administration's attention) and said the real problem was from Iran. When I asked how the infiltration took place, he said simply, "But Iran is already in Baghdad."
Which makes the following, if at all true, all the more frightening:

From the most recent American Conservative magazine (only in print):
The Pentagon, acting under instructions from Vice President Dick Cheney's office, has tasked the United States Strategic Command (STRATCOM) with drawing up a contingency plan to be employed in response to another 9/11-type terrorist attack on the United States. The plan includes a large-scale air assault on Iran employing both conventional and tactical nuclear weapons.

Within Iran there are more than 450 major strategic targets, including numerous suspected nuclear-weapons-program development sites. Many of the targets are hardened or are deep underground and could not be taken out by conventional weapons, hence the nuclear option. As in the case of Iraq, the response is not conditional on Iran actually being involved in the act of terrorism directed against the United States.

Several senior Air Force officers involved in the planning are reportedly appalled at the implications of what they are doing -- that Iran is being set up for an unprovoked nuclear attack -- but no one is prepared to damage his career by posing any objections.
( Last edited by mr. natural; Jul 25, 2005 at 05:11 PM. )

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Millennium
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Jul 25, 2005, 06:01 PM
 
This, on the same day that Sunni leaders finally came back to the bargaining table for drafting a constitution?

The situation in Iraq could be described in many ways, some positive, some not. But a quagmire, it most certainly isn't.
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vmarks
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Jul 25, 2005, 06:35 PM
 
the Jaun Cole you mention, he's the same Juan Cole of MESA, who actually knows so little about Iraq's history that he had to be corrected by Iraqi bloggers, and his best excuse for revising his blog (and attempting to correct his incorrect history, history which is supposedly his field of expertise) is 'I post late at night' ?

Yeah. That guy.
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Jul 25, 2005, 07:39 PM
 
Bwahahahaha! That's hilarious.
     
mr. natural  (op)
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:13 AM
 
Let's see, that's one 'look on the bright side' reply, one 'disparage a messenger' reply, and one 'faux comedy' reply.

Substantial replies one and all.

Your opinions are duly noted. Enjoy, if you can, the rest of this horror show.

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budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:49 AM
 
Quagmire... more talking points from the left-anti-Bush people.

This "Quagmire" term eminates from a book written about the Vietnam War and is being used in order to associate the war in Iraq with the same dilemna. It's a rather pathetic attempt, but if they pound it into yoru head enough, you just might think it's true. (That's their logic anyway)

How can Iran be lined up for an "unprovoked" attack? Nuclear or otherwise? They have continually disobeyed the rules that were laid out for them. Why on earth would they need to be Nuclear anyway? They would benefit by far with SOLAR power with their location, or am I just thinking too clearly with this?

They are definately attempting to build Nuclear Weapons and Russia is clearly helping them without, mind you, even giving it a decent try at hiding it.

We are fighting a War with Iran inside of Iraq. This is true. Most insurgents are coming across the border from Syria and Iran. The War in Iraq is over, it's now just starting to become the War with Syria and Iran within the borders of Iraq. How can you or anyone fail to see that? They (Syria / Iran) would suffer the most if Iraq were to gain a legitimate and self-sustaining Democracy.

Regarding Pandora's box, I once new a girl named Pandora, but never got near her box: (Shameless quote from Knotting Hill.)
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 26, 2005, 04:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
They have continually disobeyed the rules that were laid out for them. Why on earth would they need to be Nuclear anyway? They would benefit by far with SOLAR power with their location, or am I just thinking too clearly with this?

They are definately attempting to build Nuclear Weapons and Russia is clearly helping them without, mind you, even giving it a decent try at hiding it.
And what rules would that be?

And why are they "definately attempting to build NW"?

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von Wrangell
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Jul 26, 2005, 04:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
How can you or anyone fail to see that? They (Syria / Iran) would suffer the most if Iraq were to gain a legitimate and self-sustaining Democracy.
Again, you show an appaling lack of knowledge on the ME. Tell me, what two nations has Iraq attacked since SH got to power?

Iran will be one of the biggest benefactors of a stable Iraq. It will mean they aren't constantly threatened by Iraq and they will have a good business parter in the ME. You've probably haven't figured this out but the biggest benefactors of a stable democracy in Iraq are not you and the rest of the ME. It's Iran.

And how would Syria suffer? Are they the next on your list? And tell me one more thing. Who is responsible for a border? The nation were people is coming from or the nation that the people are entering?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:18 AM
 
12 years of non compliance with the UN resolutions which were laid out clearly.
The subtrafuge that insued with the Oil for Food Scandal nullifying all the UN set out to do. France / Russia / Germany. (Thanks, you are all respnsible for Iraq and the necessary War)

Stop it with the talking points, you look foolish and seem quite partisan.

Iran is a big part of the insurgency as is Syria.
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
12 years of non compliance with the UN resolutions which were laid out clearly.
The subtrafuge that insued with the Oil for Food Scandal nullifying all the UN set out to do. France / Russia / Germany. (Thanks, you are all respnsible for Iraq and the necessary War)

Stop it with the talking points, you look foolish and seem quite partisan.

Iran is a big part of the insurgency as is Syria.
Uhhh, Iran has no UN resolutions against it. And no, Iran has been urging the Shia factions in the south to not retaliate for the endless attacks on them from the Sunnis.

You seriously need to read up on this area.

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Taliesin
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Jul 26, 2005, 09:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
12 years of non compliance with the UN resolutions which were laid out clearly.
The subtrafuge that insued with the Oil for Food Scandal nullifying all the UN set out to do. France / Russia / Germany. (Thanks, you are all respnsible for Iraq and the necessary War)

Stop it with the talking points, you look foolish and seem quite partisan.
You crack me up, who are you arguing with? I can't see anyone talking about oil-for-food-scandal or if Iraq fulfilled the UN-resolution or not, and you are lamenting "talking points", oh irony!

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Jul 26, 2005, 10:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
This "Quagmire" term eminates from a book written about the Vietnam War and is being used in order to associate the war in Iraq with the same dilemna.
"Quag" is an olde English word for a bog or marsh. The word quagmire was first used to signify a difficult situation in 1775 which was some time before Vietnam.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earchmode=none
     
budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 10:13 AM
 
They "Democrats" are using it because of the Vietnam book reference.
     
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Jul 26, 2005, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
They "Democrats" are using it because of the Vietnam book reference.
Which book?
     
budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 11:00 AM
 
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 26, 2005, 11:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
12 years of non compliance with the UN resolutions which were laid out clearly.
Iran is not the only nuclear country in the region that doesn't comply with the UN.
     
budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 11:31 AM
 
Iran was not what I was speaking to.. I was responding to a plethora of broadcast attacks regarding Iraq, and Iran.

Iran has it's own NUCLEAR contraints placed on it, which it is breaking and has done well back into the Clinton Administration...

They should be compliant with the UN or suffer the consequences.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 26, 2005, 11:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
They should be compliant with the UN or suffer the consequences.
But then, should not all countries be compliant with the UN?
     
von Wrangell
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Jul 26, 2005, 11:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Iran has it's own NUCLEAR contraints placed on it, which it is breaking and has done well back into the Clinton Administration...

They should be compliant with the UN or suffer the consequences.
What constraints are those?

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
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Jul 26, 2005, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
They should be compliant with the UN or suffer the consequences.
Would that be massive bombing, civilian casualties, regime change, insurgencies, instability, and a lack of necessities such as electricity?
     
budster101
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Jul 26, 2005, 11:55 AM
 
I think we should give them what they want. A nuclear bomb, but first we should demonstrate a few of them on them first to make sure that is in fact what they really want.
     
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:33 PM
 
Hands up everyone who thought of that book when the word "quagmire" was mentioned. Anybody??

Personally, I have never even heard of the book.
     
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
They should be compliant with the UN or suffer the consequences.
Umm, shouldn't it be up to the UN to decide when there has been compliance and when there are consequences? If a guy is being investigated for a crime, are you and your poodle, as a members of society entitled to punish him before he's found guilty? Are you entitled to punish him AFTER he's found guilty?

Of course not. Similarly, the UN Security Council never found Iraq in breach of 1441 nor did the Security Council authorise the use of force against Iraq. Quite the opposite in fact. It is absurd for you to say that the reason Iraq was invaded was because it didn't comply with the UN when the only thing the UN said about the invasion by the "Coalition of the Willing" was to condemn that invasion.
     
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
But then, should not all countries be compliant with the UN?
Yes, all countries in the Middle East should comply with UN resolutions, especially those regarding manufacturer and/or possession of nuclear weapons.

Know of any countries NOT adhering to these resolutions?
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Jul 26, 2005, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
Hands up everyone who thought of that book when the word "quagmire" was mentioned. Anybody??

Personally, I have never even heard of the book.
This is what comes to mind for me



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Jul 26, 2005, 01:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy
Know of any countries NOT adhering to these resolutions?
There is one that comes to mind ...
     
mr. natural  (op)
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Jul 27, 2005, 02:15 PM
 
In the news today are three separate reports about Iraq. Each can be categorized in the following way:

Under the 'look on the bright side' rubric, Kurdish leader Massoud Barzani says they will not back down from demands for a federal state despite problems this may create in efforts to draft a new constitution. He also said the Kurds would never dissolve their militia, the 'peshmerga,' and repeated demands about repopulating (and controlling) Kirkuk.


Under the 'disparage a messenger' rubric An independent panel headed by two former U.S. national security advisers said Wednesday that chaos in Iraq was due in part to inadequate postwar planning.

''A dramatic military victory has been overshadowed by chaos and bloodshed in the streets of Baghdad, difficulty in establishing security or providing essential services, and a deadly insurgency,'' the report said.

''The costs, human, military and economic, are high and continue to mount,'' said the report, which was sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations, an independent foreign policy group.


[and]In Afghanistan, as well as Iraq, the report said, the postwar period has been marked by inefficient operations and billions of dollars of wasted resources.
And last but not least, there is the 'faux comedy' report, In Surprise Visit to Baghdad, Rumsfeld Prods Iraqi Leaders, in which he is reported to have said:


"We have troops on the ground. People get killed."
Indeed, how observant. But what does one expect after starting a war on false premises and our illustrious CiC challenged the enemy with: "Bring 'em on!"

We also come to hear, after all the talk about refusing to talk about a timetable for troop withdrawals because it would give the terrorists hope, they are now doing just that.


Mr. Rumsfeld declined to say when conditions would permit that drawdown to start. But the top American commander here, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., reaffirmed to reporters his statement in March that the Pentagon will be able to make "some fairly substantial reductions" in troops by next spring if the political process remains on track and Iraqi forces assume more responsibility for securing their country.
Ah well, they do leave themselves a lot of wiggle room with the big if in there; although it seems clear that the Pentagon has a timetable to get out precisely because it is the best way to support our troops in this brewing civil war and stop them from getting killed in the crossfire.

And so it goes in Disneyland.

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Jul 27, 2005, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by mr. natural
Let's see, that's one 'look on the bright side' reply...
I will assume you were referring to my response. My response was not intended as a 'look on the bright side', but to flatly deny that things are going as you say they are. It was my intent to hold up the Sunnis returning to the bargaining table as evidence of this. Iraq is not a quagmire.
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Millennium
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Jul 27, 2005, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by mr. natural
In the news today are three separate reports about Iraq. Each can be categorized in the following way:

Under the 'look on the bright side' rubric, Kurdish leader Massoud Barzani says they will not back down from demands for a federal state despite problems this may create in efforts to draft a new constitution. He also said the Kurds would never dissolve their militia, the 'peshmerga,' and repeated demands about repopulating (and controlling) Kirkuk.
This is called debate. There is always debate when constitutions are being formed, particularly when it comes time to define governmental structure. The US went through very similar debates; at one point there was even talk of appointing three Presidents with equal power.

This is not a sign of a quagmire. This is a normal, healthy part of the process of drafting a Constitution.
Indeed, how observant. But what does one expect after starting a war on false premises and our illustrious CiC challenged the enemy with: "Bring 'em on!"
There is still no evidence that the war was started on "false premises" (I believe you meant to say "false pretenses". Even if there had been WMD, do you think this would have magically cleared up all quarrels with those who would later become the insurgency?
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Jul 27, 2005, 03:59 PM
 
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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