[cmeisenzahl]

For 6-8 years we're been repeatedly told that indeed it is. Will that sentiment continue after yesterday?

Is dissent still patriotic? - The Denver Post
"Do all Americans truly have a yearning to fundamentally "remake" our nation? There must be a subversive minority out there that still believes the United States — even with its imperfections and sporadic recessions — is, in context, still a wildly prosperous and free country worth preserving."
http://www.denverpost.com/harsanyi/ci_11505879

[ort888]

Dissent is always patriotic. Our country was founded on it and thrives on it. The two parties keeping each other in check. (sort of) and differing ideas and ideals keep us all in check (again, sorta).

As for the article... blech. He makes a lot of assumptions. I guess it's fun to make up what's going to happen and then criticize people for potential future events.

[subego]

Since when has dissent been monolithic?

Dissent can be constructive or destructive.

[SpaceMonkey]

I'll have to keep my eye on this thread.

[Chongo]

No, it will be questioning The O.N.E., and will be swiftly dealt with.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

No, it will be questioning The O.N.E., and will be swiftly dealt with.

I distinctly remember this same question coming up in these forums during the early phases of the Irag war. At that time, it was most definitely considered unpatriotic to criticize President Bush's decision and policies. The Dixie Chicks disagreed and ended up getting their records run over by monster trucks and banned from certain radio stations.

The same type of situation could happen with Obama, but that remains to be seen.

[ort888]

Why don't we flip it.

Is dissent still unpatriotic?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

I distinctly remember this same question coming up in these forums during the early phases of the Irag war. At that time, it was most definitely considered unpatriotic to criticize President Bush's decision and policies. The Dixie Chicks disagreed and ended up getting their records run over by monster trucks and banned from certain radio stations.

The same type of situation could happen with Obama, but that remains to be seen.

Did anyone go to jail?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Why don't we flip it.

Is dissent still unpatriotic?

If it gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

I distinctly remember this same question coming up in these forums during the early phases of the Irag war. At that time, it was most definitely considered unpatriotic to criticize President Bush's decision and policies. The Dixie Chicks disagreed and ended up getting their records run over by monster trucks and banned from certain radio stations.

Going off my original post, I'd rate the early phases of a war as one of the more difficult things to dissent with constructively.

Not that you should be monster trucked for doing it wrong, or that the Dixie Chicks did it wrong. I honestly don't remember the exact circumstances.

However, based on how celebrities usually do these sorts of things, my opinion would probably be they did it wrong.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Did anyone go to jail?

No, not as far as I know. However, the original post was whether dissent is still patriotic--not whether people went to jail for dissenting. Are you afraid you're going to go to jail for disagreeing now?

I see absolutely no sign that the Obama administration will ever throw people in jail for criticizing him.

[ort888]

People went to jail as a result of the Valerie Plame scandal. Not the dissenters, although they were punished... which was the whole problem...

That was a definite case of dissent being punished.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

If it gives aid and comfort to the enemy.

How can dissent give aid and comfort to the enemy? Define this.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

The Dixie Chicks disagreed and ended up getting their records run over by monster trucks and banned from certain radio stations

Historical re-write noted.

It wasn't just that they disagreed, which celebrities have done to Republicans since time immortal. It was that they went OVERSEAS and simply insulted the President as if they weren't even Americans.

Maybe you don't know it because you are too young, or are blinded by hatred for Bush, but before that there was always sort of an "unwritten rule" that you didn't go overseas to criticize your country or President, and American politicians refrained from directly criticizing the President publicly while he was overseas, until he was back on American soil. There are no laws against it, it was just considered common sense politeness and patriotism.

Dissent is patriotic. Pissing and moaning to an audience of people who hate us is just conspiring with the enemy IMO.

Of course, at least we'll probably do better than the Clinton administration (fingers crossed):
http://www.injusticeline.com/freespch.html

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Dissent is patriotic. Pissing and moaning to an audience of people who hate us is just conspiring with the enemy IMO.

Just because people don't agree with us and maybe even express hatred towards us or our government/President doesn't mean they are our enemy. As always there is a distinction between speech and action which people always seem intent on ignoring whenever it suits them.

[Dakar V]

Conspire seems like a complete exaggeration.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Historical re-write noted.

It wasn't just that they disagreed, which celebrities have done to Republicans since time immortal. It was that they went OVERSEAS and simply insulted the President as if they weren't even Americans.

Maybe you don't know it because you are too young, or are blinded by hatred for Bush, but before that there was always sort of an "unwritten rule" that you didn't go overseas to criticize your country or President, and American politicians refrained from directly criticizing the President publicly while he was overseas, until he was back on American soil. There are no laws against it, it was just considered common sense politeness and patriotism.

Dissent is patriotic. Pissing and moaning to an audience of people who hate us is just conspiring with the enemy IMO.

Of course, at least we'll probably do better than the Clinton administration (fingers crossed):
http://www.injusticeline.com/freespch.html

If they had expressed their policy disagreements in a purely unemotional way when asked, would this by "conspiring with the enemy"? The Republican party loves to come up with these sort of cowboy terms that sure feel good and sound good to say, but they are impossible to define and impossible to really see the wisdom in in some cases. The world is not this black and white.

[besson3c]

Is Doofy conspiring with the enemy here? He bitches about the UK all the time...

[ort888]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Historical re-write noted.

It wasn't just that they disagreed, which celebrities have done to Republicans since time immortal. It was that they went OVERSEAS and simply insulted the President as if they weren't even Americans.

Maybe you don't know it because you are too young, or are blinded by hatred for Bush, but before that there was always sort of an "unwritten rule" that you didn't go overseas to criticize your country or President, and American politicians refrained from directly criticizing the President publicly while he was overseas, until he was back on American soil. There are no laws against it, it was just considered common sense politeness and patriotism.

Dissent is patriotic. Pissing and moaning to an audience of people who hate us is just conspiring with the enemy IMO.

Of course, at least we'll probably do better than the Clinton administration (fingers crossed):
http://www.injusticeline.com/freespch.html

So we make up unwritten rules as we go along now? Fun!

Also, is that the best you can come up with against Clinton? Really?

I wonder what happened to the people who were shouting and causing disturbances during McCain's RNC speech this year. I'm sure they just got a stern talking to from the benevolent and understanding Republican party.

EDIT: At least one of them was arrested, questioned and then set free with no charges. Not sure about the other two.

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/t...mccain_heckler

But if you think that Bush never had anyone arrested for disturbing one of his public appearances you are kidding yourself.

[subego]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How can dissent give aid and comfort to the enemy? Define this.

I loves me some semantics.

I think the answer is dependent on where you fit on the "moral relativism" vs. "realpolitik" continuum.

On the moral relativism end of the scale, the answer is "at the fringes".

On the realpolitik end, the answer is "when it gets in the way".

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Conspire seems like a complete exaggeration.

Complete? No. Slight. I'll confess.

Originally Posted by ort888 

So wan we make up unwritten rules as we go along now? Fun!

I guess if I just made them up, you'd have a point. Since I didn't, and it's clear you fall into one of the categories I mentioned above (in regards to your ignorance of the long standing standards I mentioned), I'll provide the first clear citation I found that supports my claim. Mind you, it's a criticism on Bush himself for even obliquely mentioning something that might be considered partisan:

Bush Criticizes Obama While on Foreign Soil � Roadkill Refugee

Bush’s cheap shot this morning violates two long bipartisan traditions of American foreign policy: (1) keep domestic partisan politics out of foreign affairs and (2) never engage in criticisms of American political leaders or policies while on foreign soil.

Now, this is how the guy quoted above states the "rule", while I've heard it a little differently, and it's debatable if what Bush did really violated the spirit of the "unwritten rule" which was to not criticize your fellow Americans in ways which would put them in a bad light in foreign countries (given that the issue in question wasn't limited to debates held just among Americans). The foreigners do enough themselves - they don't need our help.

Also, is that the best you can come up with against clinton? Really?

Yeah..an instance where Clinton brought the force of law down on someone's head because they dissented and he felt insulted. That's all I got. Just a single case of abuse of power and censorship by the most powerful man on Earth.

[placebo1969]

I always thought patriotism is patriotic.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Complete? No. Slight. I'll confess.

What did the Dixie Chicks and crowd watching conspire to do?

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

It wasn't just that they disagreed, which celebrities have done to Republicans since time immortal. It was that they went OVERSEAS and simply insulted the President as if they weren't even Americans.

Maybe you don't know it because you are too young, or are blinded by hatred for Bush, but before that there was always sort of an "unwritten rule" that you didn't go overseas to criticize your country or President, and American politicians refrained from directly criticizing the President publicly while he was overseas, until he was back on American soil. There are no laws against it, it was just considered common sense politeness and patriotism.

Ah, such simpler times. However, in U.S. history this bubble was burst by the late 1790s, if not earlier, when criticism of the Alien and Sedition Acts reached the shores of Europe.

[Powerbook]

Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it.
- Mark Twain

It is for us to refuse loyalty when injustice holds sway.
- Henry T. Laurency

May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.
- Albert Einstein

To sin by silence, when we should protest, makes cowards out of men.
- Ella Wheeler Wilcox